Wayward Son

Oh, so the last twelve seasons where Dean has been the leader of Team Free Will has involved Sam and Cas licking the floor? Good to know! I must have missed those scenes. I'll have to watch out for them the next time I'm rewatching the show.

Yep! We have had twelve seasons of always right leader Dean! Bring on the reign of Sammy I say!

I can see why that might be taken as a slight by fans such as yourself and @Aeryn13. However, based on the fanfics I've read I don't believe this to be the case. IMO the authors intention is not to belittle Dean, but to try and reinvent the surrogate father/son relationship between Dean and Bobby. Since in most of the non-hunting fics I've read it's usually a case of bad father John neglects Dean and Bobby gives him a chance where no one else would have. So I usually find the bashing is against John, who actually seemed like a pretty great guy prior to Mary's death driving him into revenge, for the case of creating a Bobby / Dean bond. However, like I said, I can see why some fans might be uncomfortable with such a set up and how it presents Dean :) Ooh an engineer is definitely a good potential job at Dean, and I totally agree it is one I could see him excelling at :) . I also agree with the fire fighter, cop or soldier. I'm not so sure about teaching, especially if it were older kids / teens. I'm not sure Dean would have the patience for dealing with bratty kids, many of whom tend to treat their teachers with disdain.

I'm not sure that the author of the fanfic's intention is to belittle Dean by making him a mechanic in these non-hunting scenarios. Personally, I would imagine Dean thriving best in jobs such as a mechanic (because of his absolute love of cars), construction work / a trade or even a bartender. My reason for thinking along these lines has nothing to do with my views on Dean's intelligence, but my views on his interests. IMO Dean most enjoys doing things which are hands on (hence mechanic or another trade) or involve interaction with other people. Whereas I think Dean would feel constricted in an office environment or other jobs with high levels of paper work. Admittedly, I'm not the most Dean centric of fans, so I've perhaps got a wrong reading of him. What would you imagine would be the best job for Dean in a scenario where he chose to no longer hunt for some reason?

Replying in the Dean Winchester thread.

See I think if one is going to make the argument "Dean stayed solely because of indoctrination while Sam chose to leave freely" it can easily lead to the conclusion Sam is the stronger person mentally. That is why I personally disagree with such an argument. IMO both brothers freely made a choice. Dean chose to stay hunting with John and Sam chose to pursue a different lifestyle in Stanford. Both choices were valid and made sense for where the brothers were at that time in their life. Dean chose to stay because he likes hunting. He embraced that his life was filled with things most others would never encounter. He enjoyed the feeling of being a hero, of making a difference to other people's lives. Sam didn't share this enjoyment! He saw the downfalls of hunting i.e. the danger, the constrictions, the isolation from other people and felt this made him a freak, and he wanted to live a more normal life. Personally, I have no issue with either choice. It doesn't make Dean weak that he chose to stay nor does it make Sam bad for choosing to leave. My complaints are primarily about what went down after the decision were made. IMO Dean (and his fans) need to own Dean's decision to stay. He wasn't forced to stay, he chose to stay. And I disapprove of Dean twisting Sam's legitimate decision and playing the victim card. Sam wanted to go to college. It was John who turned it in to an outright cut off and Dean who abided by John's decree. If Dean wants to whine about the Stanford related cut off then he should direct it towards John not Sam. As I said above, I think Dean's choice to stay was related to Dean's enjoyment of the hunting life and had nothing to do with the "protect Sam" directive. If he was acting on that wouldn't it have made more sense to leave with Sam? To get a job in town as a bar tender, mechanic or whatever career Dean wanted to work as. He would have then been near Sam and in a better position to protect him than just checking in every few months. To to be clear I'm not saying Dean should have went with Sam. I'm just pointing out that if his decision was all about protecting Sam that was the more logical course of action. Instead Dean chose to stay with John and live the hunting life he wanted to live, and rightly so since Dean's life shouldn't be centred around Sam's.

That is a rather obvious conclusion I have come to also. The biggest example of this viewpoint in action takes place at the start of S9. When instead of providing Sam with all of the facts and allowing him to come to an informed decision like an adult Dean decides conspiring with Gadreel into allowing the supernatural rape of Sam to take place is a much better idea. @mertensia This excuse only works to a certain extent. Sam also had a childhood of John and his attempts at indoctrination and managed to fight his way through it!

But, as I said, the description of the ghosts MO as going after dicks was an overly simplified and misleading summary. Within the episode the assumption was instantly corrected and the actual MO of the ghost was to target those who used the fear of others as a weapon against them. IIRC, while Sam and Bobby were both less than sympathetic towards Dean at times, neither of them actually used Dean's fear to their advantage. They didn't wield it as a weapon against Dean. So their behaviour while dickish wouldn't fall within the ghosts actual jurisdiction.

Taking my response to all episodes thread.

In regards to Yellow Fever I've always had the head canon that it was foreshadowing the reveal Dean tortured souls in hell. While Dean simplified the ghosts MO down to he goes after "dicks" Sam revealed it actually goes after those who "used fear as a weapon". A description I'm certain would more than fit Dean's tenure as a master of torture in hell. I want to be clear that while I have issues with Dean's behaviour on the show his time in hell isnt one of them. I have a lot of sympathy for Dean and understood he only broke after severe physical and mental torture. However, I don't think a ghost would make such a distinction. They'd see it in black and white i.e. "he uses fear as a weapon, he deserves to die" and that's it. I'm thinking back to Bloody Mary where the ghosts MO was to kill someone who could be seen as responsible for the death of another. It didn't matter to her if they actually physically killed someone like Jill, or were bystanders who felt guilty for not doing more to stop it like Sam and Charlie. Thank you both for the clarification! Psychology isn't an area I'd consider myself an expert on, so it is always good to have an opportunity to expand my knowledge :)

-- Bad Day at Black Rock ++ Jus in Bello ++ No Rest for the Wicked 47 - No Rest for the Wicked 45 - Jus in Bello 29 - A Very Supernatural Christmas 27 - Mystery Spot 13 - Bedtime Stories 13 - Ghostfacers 13- Long Distance Call 11 - The Magnificent Seven 11 - Time is on My Side 11 - Fresh Blood 09 - Dream a Little Dream of Me 07 - The Kids Are Alright 07 - Bad Day at Black Rock 03 - Sin City 01 - Red Sky at Morning Dragged to Hell by Hellhounds... 16. Malleus Maleficarum

But what appearance is Sam keeping up by giving Dean a chance? Jessica knew there was bad blood between Sam and the other Winchester's. It wasn't as though he had been pretending to come from an ideal family and made up tales of going home to them every holiday. The following comes from the Pilot transcript provided by Superwiki If anything Jessica seems utterly mystified by Sam's decision to go with Dean. She can't understand the sudden turn around especially so close to his law school interview! If anything, Sam not going with Dean would have aligned more closely with the Sam she knew for several years. Im honestly not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it. I just genuinely do not understand why you are so convinced Sam has a show to put on when Jessica knew there was bad blood there.

My counter argument is; why does Sam have to put on a show for Jessica? She already knew that there was bad blood between Sam and the other members of his family. Do you really think she'd side with a man she never met before in her life (John) and a man who branzely hit on his brothers girlfriend right in front of him the one time they met (Dean) over Sam, the man she loves. Personally, I doubt that especially if he explains their fall out came as a result of John kicking him out for wanting to go to college.

But can you be traumatised by something you can't remember? If say Dean was being truthful, and from his perspective he went straight from dying straight to being alive again, could it be said he was traumatised by Hell? This was the way Sam saw things to begin with. However, you're right, Dean did soon begin to exhibit signs of trauma and when Sam picked up on these he asked about it. Dean chose not to talk about it! Since it has been said Dean has the right time to not discuss such a personal and traumatic experience I'm not sure what else Sam could have done.

I think the point being made wasn't that it was wrong of Dean to keep it secret, but rather it is hard for Sam to show empathy for trauma he doesn't know existed.

I'm happy to concede that from John's perspective it wasn't a kicking out for the sake of kicking out. However, IMO my basic point remains. Sam did not plan to leave because "OMG I hate my family and want nothing to do with them", but because he wanted to go down his own path and attend college like many other kids across the country. It was John who chose to make it into an ultimatum, and it was Dean who decided to twist Sam's pretty normal desire to make his own way in life to being about how Sam hates them, abandoned them and is not one to be trusted. But again does Sam not have the right to be angry with the family that kicked him out? As I said above, I am happy to concede that John may have had his reasons, but since he neglects to discuss these reasons Sam can only operate under the assumption John kicked him out for wanting to go to college and respond with what is in my opinion (righteous) anger. Of course we could sit and speculate that Sam would have behaved the same even if John didn't issue that ultimatum. However, IMO when judging the characters we can only operate with what the show gives us. The solid indisputable facts are Sam had the normal every day desire to make his own way in life by going to college, John didn't want this, it turned into an argument and ultimately he issued Sam with an ultimatum and Sam chose to leave. The reaction of Dean to this is murkier. IMO the most likely conclusion is that Dean reluctantly stood by and allowed it to happen. It would fit in with his obedience to John at that point and the show has never made reference to Dean protesting the ultimatum with a comment like "come on Dad that's a bit much". However, since the show doesn't also explicitly state Dean didn't make such a token protest I suppose one could choose to imagine he did. So IMO, as I mentioned earlier, Dean chose to repeatedly distort the situation so that instead of it being about Sam wanting to go to college like a normal kid it was a callous wicked act targeted at hurting Dean by abandoning him for life. That's why I don't find it all surprising he turned Sam thinking Dean was dead and being unable to cope into Sam being like "huh, have fun in purgatory Dean. I'm off to find myself a girl and a dog".

I need to rewatch the opener of eight, but as I remember it he was happy to see Dean alive. He pulled Dean in for a hug exclaiming "you're frigging alive" (again supporting the belief that he thought Dean was dead) in a delighted manner. It was when Dean went on the attack and started criticising his choices in the past year, without consideration of why Sam acted the way he did, that Sam grew more defensive and closed off.

As Sam rightly pointed out, in Salvation I think, he was only going off to college like any other 18 year old. It was John who closed that door by telling him not to come back and Dean who chose to standby and allow that to happen. I hardly think it's unreasonable that Sam chose to disassociate himself from the family that chose to disown him. A lesser man would have told Dean to go away and find John himself under those circumstances. The fact Sam actually agreed to help showed there was still some lingering love there IMO.

I'm happy enough to agree to disagree. I find it interesting there was no talk of a "thumbs down" for posts from users who talk about Sam in equally unflattering terms.

I'm not sure where exactly you're getting the "noble" adjective from my description of Sam. Highlighting that he has a breaking point does not boost him up to be a noble Gary Stu. In fact it does quite the opposite. It shows that Sam is human and has a breaking point like everyone else. Sam and his mental health are not invincible.

Voted for Marvels panel. I refuse to vote for the shows panel after the ridiculous stunt they pulled with the chairs.

No, I don't believe the show ever had Sam bluntly utter the words "I had a mental breakdown". However, it was pretty clearly shown to be the case in Hunteri Heroici. The episode is spent exploring Sam's initial reaction to the "death" of Dean at the end of season seven and highlighting how broken up over it he was. The episode concludes with Sam relating to Fred and his mental break down by discussing how he knows it is too hard to go on and you just want to escape. There was clearly meant to be a parallel between Fred's breakdown and Sam's breakdown at the end of s7. Unfortunately, many viewers failed to pick up on this and instead decided to rely on the theory posited by Dean that Sam knowingly abandoned him and went off with Amelia instead of the more nuanced he believed Dean to be dead and couldn't cope. This episode is a prime example of why I disagree with those who complain about how the writers have "babied us" and lay on the parallels etc too thick in other episodes. Quite clearly many viewers can't pick up on subtle storytelling and need the blunt "I had a mental breakdown" approach to storyline. I also consider Dean to be far from a reliable witness here. He is the guy who has a known history for distorting facts, so he can have an excuse to engage in endless melodramatic whining and whinging. Just look at the fuss he made of the every day act of Sam choosing to go to College. In Lucifer Rising he even tried to use this as evidence Sam wasn't to be trusted and never wanted to be a part of the family. So really Dean turning Sam's mental breakdown into being all about him and how he is a victim is hardly new.

The way I understood your post is that you were saying that it was "cruel" of me to not approve of Dean's behaviour in s8. I was countering that IMO it is no more cruel than Dean fans, and indeed within the show Dean himself, who persist on casting Sam as the bad guy for having a mental breakdown and the actions resulting from said breakdown. @trxr4kids I'm not sure why you've brought up the brothers respective time in hell.? As I understood it, we have been discussing the trauma of Dean's time in purgatory and the trauma of Sam having a mental breakdown at the end of season seven.

No more cruel than viewers demanding perfection from Sam and then attacking Sam for daring to have a mental break down and fleeing, due to an inability to cope. Or Dean battering away at Sam's limited self-esteem and mental health to the point he exhibits signs of being suicical, but YMMV.

Damn, there's a hot Jared Image fire today! And I love it :D