PAForrest

IMO that's your answer right there. Dabb was both "unofficially" and then finally "officially" in charge last year too. Carver was gone doing Frequency almost right away, and Dean unsurprisingly spent most of last season being sidelined from a lot of the action, especially in Dabb's episodes. The only difference this season is that Dabb's maybe not even trying to pretend anymore. I honestly believe the desire to sideline Dean and essentially replace him with Mary as much as they can is Dabb's intention - at least, that's how it feels to me right now and depending on where they go with Mary after this. At this point I think if Dabb could eliminate Dean entirely from the show he would. Instead he has him used as minimally as possible, and even then he's often dumbed down, like he was last night. Something has to change pretty radically before the end of the season for me to feel otherwise - and then carry over to next season, and not fall back on doing the same thing all over again. Right now Dean being useless affects my feelings about everything and everyone else in the show, in that I hate it all.

I love what Dean said to Crowley about Rowena in season 10, reiterating what Bobby told them about family not ending with blood, but that it doesn't necessarily begin there either. It's time Dean took a little of his own advice.

No, it isn't character growth when it's the same old, same old routine almost every single time to have Dean back down, even if not especially in those times when he's right, and go well beyond half-way to keep the peace. It's just SOP, that's all it is. And that's what makes it annoying. It doesn't help to have Mary (in this situation, but could be anyone) just stand there and practically gloat to watch Dean back down, and not own her part of the problem. It certainly makes it look like Miss Mary doesn't think she's ever at fault - and that's a huge character flaw in and of itself. This is absolutely not the way to make me a fan.

Hi Dean Squad, been dealing with family matters for a couple weeks. Not a lot of time to post. And I still haven't watched/FF'd through the last episode - and quite honestly from everything I've read about it, it may just sit on my dvr for a few more weeks/months. I'm not jonesing. Or I'll watch the first part where Dean rips Mary a new one, delete it, and pretend the episode ends there. WRT to the drinking discussion, I really believe Kripke decided that was just the kind of thing a blue-collar manly hunter would do. Part and parcel of the on-paper character description. And because Jensen makes everything look cool, it increasingly became Dean's thing, along the same lines of Dean's eating that Jensen adlibbed back in season 1 with the little weanies that ballooned for the writers from that point on. The drinking habit did seem to reach epic proportions under Gamble, but I don't believe she ever intended to address it/give a name or storyline to it. To me it just looked like another sidelining maneuver. No one was writing anything else for Dean specifically in those two years in terms of an individual storyline, especially in season 7 - his role was to react to what was going on. I think Gamble and Singer used the drinking as a "storyline" excuse when pressed, but I honestly don't believe they gave it a lot of thought. But as someone who has lived and dealt with a legit alcoholic for many years, I can tell you that Dean isn't functioning so much as unbelievably superhuman in how it doesn't affect him at all like it would a real person - emphasis on the "unbelievable" part. In other words, it's very obviously playacting drinking for television, and nothing else. And because it's not believable, I honestly don't even pay attention to it. It's on par with breathing at this point.

They knew Crowley took off with Gavin and that he never got sent back to his own TL, so they've always known he was still alive somewhere. Cute enough scene. I also like the clip with Dean being suspicious of Mary, because he should be. Mommy Dearest is cagey.

Yeah, in the few minutes he was in that first Perez script, Dean had that mopey moment trying to call Mary that I didn't appreciate at all. And we did have that one horrible scene of him drinking on the floor in the kitchen of the bunker earlier this season when he was depressed about Mary that I despised, in whatever episode that was because none of them are sticking with me. I just recall the scene because it looked like we were sliding right back down into Gamble's season 7 depressed Dean that I never ever want to see again. Unfortunately I feel that there was too much Dean-depression in the beginning surrounding Mary because Dean wanted so badly to connect with her, and she wasn't interested, which is the sure fire fastest way to make me hate a character. And he wasn't doing much else on screen, so that's unfortunately what jumps out in my mind - again, much like season 7 Dean. But I agree we at least seem to be past that awfulness, and Jensen does appear to be trying to instill a little more fun and gravitas to whenever Dean is on screen. I feel like there's a lot more adlibbing going on in his performances this year, giving us those little extras you talked about, and it's a good thing because what Jensen likes about Dean are the same things most of his fans want to see too, like the lightness and strength that you mentioned. Getting to see Dean be child-like, happy, and excited in Regarding Dean was the best part of that episode. Too bad it was a one-off. I too like that Dean appears to be keeping Mary at arm's length, and I'm not seeing any warmth between the characters. Granted, Mary isn't exuding warmth in general anyway, but Dean also doesn't look like he's going out of his way with her anymore either. But I would love some actual scripted confirmation that this is what's happening, and not just have to rely on how Jensen appears to be playing his limited interactions with her.

Regarding the spear, I think he's just parroting back what the interviewer asked him about Dean picking up the spear/wondering if it would come back into play. I don't that's going to happen, and I think if the question wasn't asked at all, he wouldn't have had to come up with a "remains to be seen" response, which pretty much means no. But, yeah, confirmation of checklist writing. That's exactly what I thought when it happened. As for the promise that the brothers - to include Dean - will actually appear in all five acts of one of his episodes, that's definitely a response to the complaints of his first episode where Dean leaves halfway through and never appears again until the end, with no explanation. My headcanon, which was infinitely more entertaining than the episode itself, is that Dean left to get lunch, did a little shopping, and maybe stopped for a massage. There certainly was enough time for him to do all that, so I like to think he went off and pampered himself. Heh.

Yeah, I think there's no doubt I would have ranked it differently too in an earlier season when the writing was a lot stronger.

I think in Glynn we have that rarer than a unicorn Dean-fan writer on staff, and not surprisingly I thought Dean shined best in her two episodes so far this year. Most of the rest of the episodes I'd have a hard time recalling with a gun to my head. Yeah, there a few decent Dean moments in the hunter funeral episode, though I think what I liked best about it is that another mother read Mary Sue the riot act, and I couldn't get enough of that. Heh. Plus Dean got to be fed up with Mary, at least briefly. The plot will always mean a whole lot more to me if my hook character is actively involved. If he's not, I'm not going to care as much. And this year I don't find any of the plots interesting on their own. I really don't think Dabb is a good storyteller.

Why do these things look better and more impressive in still shots on tumblr than they do playing out on screen? Yes, Dean looked good. He always looks good. I wish I had more to say here.

I'll grant you that could have been what was happening - but, you know, it's not at all clear, especially since Lucifer wasn't in control at that point. Makes just as much sense that Sam pulled Adam in as Michael to keep him from wreaking havoc. See, that's the thing, it's all muddled without Dean playing his original intended role. I think the point is that Kripke meant for both archangels to end up in the box, stopping the apocalypse for good. So if Dean had played the role he was supposed to play, he would have jumped into the pit willingly with Sam, which frankly makes a lot more sense than maybe Lucifer grabbing Michael since Lucifer wasn't in charge anymore. I don't think it's weird because that's what everything was leading up to, and how it was supposed to go down.

For the exact same reason Sam pulled Adam into the pit with him - to lock up both archangels. That's what the brothers would have done together, willingly. That's what Dean was originally supposed to do with Sam.

I hate PoNR every bit as much as SS, if not more, because that's the episode where they all decided, "hey, let's throw away almost everything we worked toward for two years", replaced Dean with a guest-star no one cared about, and set the ball rolling for the stupidity of SS. So, unpopular opinion? And, yes, the original plan was for Dean to control Michael the same as Sam controls Lucifer - but maybe without the idiotic props and actually because they're good guys and care about each other more than they do cars and toys. Jensen was given every impression he was to play Michael, and the PA (I think her name was "vancouvernights") who was tweeting spoilers at the time in season five had posted one that essentially said Dean would take on Michael, but it wouldn't go according to plan and Michael wouldn't be able to take over completely. Both bothers would have fallen into the pit/plot hole, and maybe as a series finale it would have been sad and depressing. As for renewal, that was no excuse to cut Dean out of the storyline. Cas can pull out two brothers just as easily as one - though in reality neither he nor Crowley should have been able to accomplish that given how impenetrable the box was supposed to be. But, hey, then there's Chuck - he saves both brothers because of their sacrifice. They don't know how they were saved until we bring Chuck back into it later, they just know they were. Sure, you might have to give up Soulless!Sam, but I hated that plot, so no loss IMO. Maybe that's an unpopular opinion, though, again, I think it is and isn't depending on who you talk to. Or have something else happen to Sam in season six where he loses his soul, and maybe it's done a whole lot better than the way it was mishandled in season six.

I too have a lot of problems with Swan Song, and I really hate the episode for all the reasons that have already been stated - making the car and a stupid piece of plastic that never made a single appearance until then more important than Dean's very existence, much less his bloody pulp of a beautiful face; throwing away Dean's role as Michael's vessel to someone seriously unimportant in the grand scheme of things; and the way I felt like a sucker for believing in the "brotherly bond" and "family" aspect of it when it was clear the showrunner didn't care at the end. Plus, suddenly being all addiction!yay! WRT the stupid blood drinking that never made any sense (it was like Kripke's version of an anti-After School Special where he's telling the kids, 'go forth and drink and do drugs, kiddies - that's what makes you special!'). Not to mention the overall anti-humanity message given the way it played out. But my biggest beef is exactly what you're saying here, how two entire years of mytharc and story-telling went down the toilet and was rendered moot. The way finale was written, frankly, Dean never had to go to Hell in the first place, or at least never had to be saved given his incredible lack of role when it came down to it. For me that's the biggest sin. And everything else you're saying too. I honestly don't think it was a good episode, and I believe Kripke knew it which is why he included that whine of Chuck's about not pleasing fans. He knew before it aired he was going to piss off a lot of fandom. He just didn't care at that point. And, again, if he didn't care, then why should I? Though I think depending on where you post or who you're talking to, not liking SS isn't necessarily an unpopular opinion - it probably both is and isn't.

Like the name change!

This sums up my feelings about the episode pretty succinctly. I had decided to skip it, actually, and even deleted it from my dvr unwatched. But on Friday I broke down and watched it online just in case there was something in there I'd be sorry to have missed. There really wasn't. And weirdly, I don't know if it was the way the episode was shot, or eye strain, or a combination of both, but by the end I was in full-blown vertigo migraine stage. So any episode that quite literally makes me lose my lunch isn't ever going down as a favorite. So I'm two for two in hating Perez episodes. He's my least favorite writer at this point. Overall I thought it was a hot mess. I thought many of the lines were laughably bad, and the acting worse, across the board. And the slo-mo shot looked like something you'd see in the end of year gag reel. I understand the style that Perez and Speight were attempting to go for, but I don't think it worked at all, and came across as silly and choppy instead. And repeating scenes from other viewpoints is supposed to net you new information each time, but I didn't see that happening. Just looked like an excuse to get away with writing as little as possible by simply repeating the same stupid scenes. The new-old mytharc is a straight-on rip-off of Cain and the Knights of Hell, with a generous helping of apocalypse retconning. And having Sam kill a YED felt like one of those check-list things they've been waiting to get to and finally did ever since Dean killed the original YED in season two. Also apparently the gag order remains intact WRT no mention at all of Dean's one-time connection to Michael. Even Dean acted like he'd never heard of Michael before. Seriously? And Mary is the worst. I remain dumbfounded at the portrayal of this character. She displays no emotion at all, certainly not toward her offspring, and sucks the life out of every single scene she's in. I'd actually love it if the brothers pulled away from her entirely and told her to stay gone. Truthfully I don't feel like this version of Mary would care anyway, and would very likely prefer it. The Mary we're seeing presented to us now makes me believe that had she never been killed when the kids were little, she'd simply have run off eventually anyway, and John was always going to end up a single parent. I'm confused by Lucifer in that silly little cage at the end. Isn't that Crowley's earth-based lair, not actually Hell? Sooooo ... dude's just in a little cage, not in the supposedly supermax box? That doesn't make sense, he could pop out easily with a stray thought and jump into a vessel anytime. Dumb and dumber. It only makes sense if Lucifer is just a figment of Crowley's imagination, for whatever reason. Maybe that's where they're heading with this, which would therefore simply be a rehash of Sam's relentless Hellpain from season 6/7. Total bust for me.

Lucky Vegas fans who got a double-dose of Jensen singing with the band! He looked gorgeous, he was awesome!

OMG, seriously, I am getting so tired of of the male writers on staff acting as if they're all jealous of Jensen's looks, which can be the only explanation for the constant barrage of alt-fact commentary in so many of their scripts. Clearly Glynn either didn't get the memo that they were all supposed to pretend Dean Winchester doesn't look exactly like Jensen Ackles, or she dismissed it and decided if she has eyes, so does her audience. So, thank you Meredith Glynn! I too am coming to the conclusion that Glynn is the resident Dean fan on staff, which accounts for why one of the only other times this season I felt Dean had significant things to do was in the Hitler episode, which I liked for that reason. She also appears to be the one writer on staff more interested in the Winchester brothers as leads and less in the guest-stars. IMO this script felt so much tighter for the fact that there were only three main characters and really very few guest-stars. The guest-stars were GUEST-STARS in the script! There simply to move the story along for the LEADS. I love that Jensen was finally given material that was worth showing up to work for, and that the focus was on Dean for the first time in ... I can't remember the last time the focus was on Dean. Jensen got the overdue opportunity to flex his emotional muscles again and play a wide range, which we know he likes to do. I also thought this was a strong script for the brothers' relationship, because there really aren't a lot of those episodes anymore either. I like what Myrelle said here: I really wondered about that final montage, because while it was awesome to see the shots of Dean on the mechanical bull that didn't appear anywhere else in the episode, my knee-jerk reaction was that it looked like a goodbye montage to a favorite character and actor who is moving on. From what I just read on twitter, apparently the decision to make the montage was the director's and editor's, it wasn't in the script. I like Myrelle's idea about the montage being a memorial to Dean's lost childhood, given the very child-like way Dean behaved in this episode as more and more of his memories slipped away. Except, of course, for the heartbreaking scene in the bathroom mirror that was quintessential Jensen. I really liked Rowena's interactions with the brothers in this episode too, and just enough further insight into her past and own insecurities that didn't overwhelm the main story. Probably my favorite episode of the season.

This is one I'm going to watch live for once. It's been so long since Jensen had something really meaty to work with, and I'm looking forward to seeing his performance tonight!

Dipping a newbie toe into the fray, I'll say I liked this episode a little more than I thought I would, but that's not saying much this season as I think the writing quality has simply plummeted to new subterranean depths, and I'm not convinced Dabb has a handle on this showrunning thing at all. My biggest problem with any episode anymore is how the Winchesters are continuing to play guest-stars on their own series week after week after week. Though at least they were along for the ride this time, but nothing is ever about them, and I honestly believe the only Winchester Dabb likes or is interested in is Mary - or, at least, this version of Mary that he's trying to sell. I do think it's ridiculous that there will be all these cosmic repercussions for killing the most dull annoying reaper in the history of reapers, yet there remains zero fall-out from Dean killing the Big Kahuna - Death himself. And I understand the justification about breaking a deal, but Dean also broke a deal with Death by killing him and not Sam, so that excuse actually doesn't fly. Deals were broken in both cases, and Death is a far bigger fish than Billie, who in the grand scheme of things is a big fat nothing. Otherwise, I thought Lily's backstory was interesting enough, and that Witt was decent enough in the role. OTOH, I'm not really buying that any human - especially one from over a century ago - would be studying angels as a known commodity, not to mention Enochian that I thought was supposed to be a language completely unknown to humans. A lot of hand-waving and eye-squinting has to happen to believe in Lily. I love seeing Ian Tracey in anything, though it was always obvious he was the bad guy. Of course, he plays a lot of bad guys. I do appreciate it when some attention is paid to the friendship between Dean and Castiel, and I thought it was obvious that Dean would hesitate using the banishing spell if he wasn't sure Cas would survive, especially given the schizophrenic portrayal of Castiel's powers, or lack thereof, from week to week. But it was completely in line with the way Dean reacts when his loved ones are in potential danger. I can't be paid enough to care about the constantly regurgitated Lucifer or his silly offspring, but this is clearly one of Dabb's pet projects that isn't going anywhere.

Thanks for doing this, though after looking at the results I wish I could vote again because a lot of folks clearly want to change the name, but we're splitting the votes, so I fear it's going to end up staying the same name that's essentially about Sam and not Dean.

Having a hard time choosing between: Saving the World Since 1983 A GED and a Give 'em Hell Attitude The Righteous Man I'm good with any of these!

I say that's a good idea, because I hate the title name too as it's not really about Dean. But, again, I'm another newbie who didn't think I could say anything about it. But I'm definitely up for a poll for new names. Nothing springs to mind at the moment, I'll give it a think. However, I like your suggestion of "Dean Winchester: A GED and a Give 'em Hell Attitude".

I'm both looking forward to this episode because it's the first legitimately Deancentric episode in so long I can't even, and Jensen deserves some material to work with; but at the same time I'm worried because the show is more likely to disappoint on a weekly basis than deliver. The writing simply isn't there anymore, and the showrunning really isn't there. But Jensen is there, and I know his MO is to rise above the material. Plus, Jensen has been very positive about this episode and excited to have something to play with. As for Rowena, I like her more than a lot of fans do, I guess, so I'm looking forward to seeing her role in this storyline. And Ruth loves looking into Jensen's green eyes, so I've gotta give the lady props for that!

Thanks, and I will attempt to look around the forum in the next few days. I introduced myself here first because I am predominantly a Dean and Jensen fan, and the forum was suggested by another Dean-fan poster on imdb. I always gravitate to the Dean-positive threads first in whatever forum I test out, and hope to find the forum in general is Dean-positive - or, at least, not a Dean-bashing site. If it is, I'll move on. I'm happy to engage in overall interesting show/episodic conversation as well, and hope that's what I find at this forum as well.