PAForrest

Except there was nowhere near enough actual bumping of heads because they didn't interact for most of the season. So, like Aeryn, the scene doesn't work in and of itself for me because it feels like it comes out of the blue and Dean was essentially venting at a stranger instead of someone he was simmering at for most of the year. The thing I really got out of the scene was relief that Jensen was finally given something meaty to do after having been benched for the lion's share of the season, and Jensen is a phenomenal actor and it's awesome when he's given a chance to ... well, act. So, naturally, I just loved watching the level of emotion he brought to the scene, because this is Jensen's wheelhouse - as it is Dean's. Hearts on sleeves. Of course, the bigger problem with the scene for me, and why it's not cathartic for me as a Dean fan, is that it has almost nothing at all to do with Dean. He spends the entire time watching Mary, in her fantasy, fussing over little Sam (where was Dean supposed to be, was he supposed to be?) while he goes on and on about how her actions hurt Sam and everything Sam went through, as if he himself wasn't affected by her death or sacrificed or went through anything at all horrible in his life, like he did, and instead spent the last 30+ years doing shots on a beach somewhere. And, of course, when it's all done, Mary worries about what Sam will think, gives Sam a big ol' hug, and obviously Berens intended the entire experience to be about making sure things are great with Sam and Mary. And that's very nice, but what about Dean? As far as I can tell, Mary still knows nothing of what Dean went through his entire life, and is perfectly fine with not knowing anything about her eldest son. So no catharsis on that end. But I'm glad Dabb's version of Mary has been knocked off her pedestal by Dean, because she doesn't deserve to be there. Don't know what happens after this, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Dean and Mary continue to behave as two people with mostly a superficial connection to each other. That too would be fine with me at this point because that's really how I see them anyway.

Somehow I missed this post entirely when I posted my own response, but OMG you said everything I was feeling, but so much better than I did where it concerns the Mary plot device - I can't even call it a story, really, because it didn't play out that way. Just nodding along emphatically here. And, seriously, if I was supposed to feel concerned or bad that Mary got stuck in the AU with Luci, that intention was lost on me. My only response was, "yay!"

This this this! And when I'm being given a whole lot of nothing for weeks on end, I'm going to check out of the show long before the end anyway. But I really never got the impression that's what was happening or was ever the intention of these showrunners anyway. Aeryn, I'm all over what you said here ... Two people simply appearing in the same show does not a relationship make. That's just two actors taking up space at any given time, and that's all I saw WRT "Mary and Dean" - or Mary and anyone - for most of the season. Mary was autonomous, presented as wanting it that way - apparently in Dabb's mind from the time she got married and dropped Dean into this world - and liking it that way. The only revelation I came away with from Mary's introduction back into the series world is that John maybe wasn't the worst parent after all, and that he would have ended up a single dad one way or the other because, if she hadn't died, Mary would have simply bolted eventually anyway. I truly believe that the way this character is being written and played now. As for Jensen's conversation with Berens regarding 12:22, I don't know Berens so I can't speak to his intentions in acting like he didn't know what Jensen was talking about, but my knee-jerk feeling at the time was that Jensen was putting way more thought into the script than the writer was. But whether or not that's true, what it did reveal is how confused and disappointed Jensen must have been the entire season with the direction of the Mary plot. Jensen wasn't alone in those feelings. But, even all that I could put up with because the show made me not care at all about Mary, so I didn't and I could ignore her, if Dean wasn't so utterly deadened in a way we've never seen before. I'm seriously thinking Dean needs one of those pacemakers with a built-in defib now. I desperately don't want another season of Dean playing "the walking dead" - and not in the fun zombie-killing character way, but the literal lumbering around dead way. That's just not who Dean is.

Back when my SPN friends and I would actually put some thought into where the direction of the show was going - if there was any direction at all - and what would be an appropriate end for the characters, yeah, we did think that Dean teaching a younger group of up and coming hunters was totally in his wheelhouse and possibly the eventual intention for the character. But, like everything else that woulda/coulda/shoulda been Dean's, that role too has been hand-delivered to someone else. A shame. As for what Dean would be doing otherwise if he wasn't a hunter, I thought he made it perfectly clear in season one that he wanted to be a firefighter and that completely fits with his personality. If not that, then maybe a cop. Dean likes to be in the thick of the action, he would always gravitate toward those high-danger kind of jobs, he has the personality and the will to do them combined with, more importantly, the need to help people. Not everyone can or even should attempt to do those jobs. That's why when certain showrunners try and bench the character over and over and over again, the show feels utterly lacking, superficial, and mostly ridiculous. Something is very much missing when Dean isn't in the thick of the action, as he is meant to be.

Exactly this. A perfect example of show not tell, which the series is sorely lacking these days but is much better storytelling. From that scene on there was really no doubt that being stuck in the middle and trying to defuse situations was Dean's role when the boys were teens. We even see in Dark Side ... that toddler Dean was attempting to defuse situations between Mary & John too. So this was clearly a role Dean just naturally took on within the family dynamic.

Those spoilers are so unbelievably bad that if this was another show I'd swear they were trolling us. Pellegrino must be Dabb's bestie or something. It would explain so much. Maybe I should be grateful Dabb has no use for Dean so none of this involves him.

I'm pretty sure Robbie posted that as a riff on the movie release - like saying, see here, this is the original "Baby Driver". And, of course, it works because it's true! Heh. A little OT, but the reviews are earned - Baby Driver the movie is awesome!!!!

And there would also be no Castiel without Dean and Sam and the original series, thank you very much. I'm sure Misha probably didn't mean anything bad by it, but it does come off a little like biting the hand that's fed him for years. Poor choice in words more than anything else. As for the second attempt at a backdoor pilot - with no guarantee of series, because the CW doesn't have to do anything with it if they choose not to - I don't care one way or the other. Yeah, I like Kim and Brianna well enough, and if it goes forward I wish them luck, of course. But it means nothing to me personally because I won't be tuning in - I doubt I'd be the target audience anyway. My guess is that Jody and Donna will rapidly become mostly figurehead characters anyway, while the concentration would be on the younger/teen female "hunters".

OMG, this is the first and only thing I've liked about Supernatural all year - nay, I love it and it's a must have!!!!!! I hope this little cutie hits the stores as soon as Comic Con is done - if not before. The opening trunk is just delicious icing. LOL!

Yeah, I'll give you that much. It was a good line, and it certainly speaks to the man we know Dean Winchester to be, always. Unfortunately for most of the season, short of Dean saying as much there, the on-screen mandate played out very differently, giving us instead a Dean Winchester who suddenly didn't seem to know how to do anything or know how to take charge most weeks, as if he hadn't been doing this all his life. He just wasn't given much opportunity to save people and hunt things in season 12. I don't want lip service to the belief - I want my proactive badass Dean Winchester back again, please. 100%. When we have this Dean, honestly, I'm hard-pressed to pick favorite moments and scenes because I love them all when Dean is truly allowed to be the character he's supposed to be.

Nice to see a little Dean discussion here. Favorite premiere for Dean - tie between In My Time ... and Lazarus Rising. Everything between Dean/Tessa and Dean/John was pure emotional magic, as was Sam being singularly focused on and broken up about Dean, angry with John about it, and wanting to do everything he could to save Dean. In Lazarus Rising the entire sequence with Dean crawling out of the grave and trying to find his way back was brilliant, as was his introduction to Castiel. Least favorite - Keep Calm and ... suck. Dabb made it clear in that episode that Dean was going to be useless as tits on a bull in his vision, and he pretty much stuck to that all season long. Just nine kinds of awful, as was season 12. Top Dean moments - certainly those I already mentioned from the season 2 & 4 premieres; everything to do with Demon Dean and his interactions with Crowley, especially for as brief as they were; Dean really trying desperately to play at a normal life in Exile ... and being angry with Bobby and Sam for lying to him for a year; post-Purgatory Dean in We Need to Talk ... and the introduction of Dean's friendship with Benny; and Dean dealing with angry angels in quintessential Dean fashion in I Think I'm ... Those are just the ones that come to mind right now. Least favorite Dean moments - did I mention season 12? Pretty much everything in that premiere. And like Aeryn I honestly can't remember much of anything about the season 7 premiere, so that whole thing is a wash too.

If Jensen doesn't want out, it sure appears like Dabb is trying to force him to want to break his contract. And that actually does happen, this maneuver has been done before on other shows and will continue to happen. Cutting back on an actor's screen time, or not giving an actor anything to do week after week after week, and making his/her character completely irrelevant is a classic showrunner move to try and force an actor out that said showrunner or the network/studio has no just cause to outright fire. Wouldn't make the demotion/destruction of Dean Winchester any easier to swallow for this one-time viewer, but at least unhappy fans would know there was a definitive end in sight. As for Dabb not knowing what's going on, sorry, that doesn't wash - it's his job to look over the scripts and have an idea what his producers are writing if for no other reason than to insure that his vision or whatever you want to call it is marching along toward his endgame. And it's not just newbies who are only writing for Sam while Dean stands off to the side blinking, it's every producer including the vets who are all writing the same exact thing every week. That's what makes it look like this is indeed the direction the showrunner is asking for.

But is he really? Of the can-count-them-on-one-hand moments I've liked from season 12, there was that time Dean was allowed to be rightfully pissed and called her "Mary", because she frankly doesn't deserve to be called "mom" since she doesn't want to play that role anyway. But, of course, like the other time he got to be mad at Mary - again, for utterly deserved reasons - you knew he'd cave at the end and did, because Dean always has to cave to keep the peace. So I find those moments more annoying than not since every time it happens we already know SOP dictates Dean will not be allowed to hang onto his anger and will have to apologize and take it all back.

Yeah, that's what I've surmised from her twitter feed as well. A real loss, but she's certainly not alone.

Scarlet always did an outstanding job with her Dean vids. So beautiful, full of heart and pain and emotion. I'm not even sure she watches the show anymore.

Unpopular? I don't think so. Believe me, I'd give anything for someone to kill off the current variation of valium!Dean/wallpaper!Dean in favor of a return to MOC!Dean! I agree with you, that guy was awesome! At least he knew how to fight, knew how to speak up and had lines to say, could walk and chew gum at the same time, and was overall present. Seriously, though, the last time I was hoping/begging for someone to kill off Dean Winchester was in the back-half or 2/3 of season 8 when he was reduced to playing maid/wet nurse, and ceased being a hunter then too, as he clearly has now. The goodbye montage at the end of Regarding Dean has taken on a very poignant meaning, because as far as I've seen, Dean has been missing since then - and he wasn't all that present before that episode. The only takeaway I have from season 12 is that I really really miss Dean Winchester, and I wonder if he'll ever return. My fear is that he may be gone permanently.

Yet I simply can't ignore the current version of "can't talk and chew gum at the same time" valium!Dean. This is who Andrew Dabb has insisted upon, this is who he wants Dean to be, and unless Dabb goes away, I'd guess this guy isn't going away either. So at this point Dean really isn't a warrior, despite what Amara said.** **Though I don't know that Amara really knew Dean anyway - if she did, she wouldn't have brought back Mary. I agree back when Dean was still a full-fledged hunter, "warrior" was a good description for him. He was all about protecting the tribe, it's what he was raised to do, he used to be really good at it, and I never thought he would stop being that because I don't think a warrior ever stops being a warrior, even if only at heart, because the tribe is never not in danger from something or someone. But now we're in season 12 with a Dean who bears little to no resemblance to the character he used to be, and so I honestly can't say anymore if he wouldn't be just as happy sitting around the house or going back to construction. I really can't read Dean at this point. I believe the only way this version of Dean would stop being valium!Dean and become a warrior again is if he somehow got back to Purgatory and Benny.

I don't believe these showrunners/writers are anywhere near that creative, deep, or talented; but, believe me, I would LOVE for you to be right because that sounds interesting. And it just might make the pain of this season somewhat bearable. I guess I'll keep reading the recaps to see if you're onto something. Heh.

Remember the montage at the end of that episode, and how a lot of Dean fans thought it looked like a goodbye to the character? Turns out it was.

I know I'm not really watching or paying close attention anymore, because my hook character is essentially MIA now and please call me when he shows up again; but I think Aeryn is absolutely correct - from what I have seen I don't believe the BMoL see Dean as anything more than the Billy Carter addition to the family package. Individually it's impossible to buy that they care about Dean Winchester at all - he's simply attached to the other two Winchesters, so he's just there as collateral damage more than anything else. Otherwise, no, depressingly I don't see anyone shaking in their boots hearing the name Dean Winchester these days. Not season 12's Dean Winchester.

Maybe it's because I just got done reading the 50th anniversary edition of Valley of the Dolls that the description of "valium!Dean" feels so on the nose here in season 12. I honestly can't tell anymore if it's Dean or Jensen who is so completely uninterested in, and disconnected from, anything and everything that's going on now, but the on screen result is exactly the same. I don't think it matters if the audience is supposed to wonder if Dean knows or doesn't know about the colt or anything else that's happening around him, because these writers aren't concerned with details like that. All I know is that Dean is muted, and I don't think it's a plot device choice. And if that's the case, yes, I agree it's a huge failure.

Wow, Danneel looks amazing already after having twins! And I love that double stroller. The whole family seems very committed to this "family business". I wish them all the success with it. Looks like daddy is getting JJ started early on the ground floor. LOL!

Yeah, this really succinctly sums up my lack of desire to give too much thought to this episode, because it's just one of many - most - that have nothing to do with the leads, and whereby the leads are clearly guest-starring, in this case, in another obvious attempt at yet another backdoor pilot. I don't care, so I don't care. If a Claire/BMoL show is given a green light, all the luck to them - or not, I won't be watching. And it doesn't help my attitude when Kathryn has shown up on two other series I watch playing literally the exact same character. It's almost like she's type-cast already, or maybe isn't really having to act all that much. Either way, it's not a character trope I like or care about. Yes, the Js have cut back their time, but even when Dabb has them to use it really doesn't much seem to matter, they may as well stay home most of the time. Jensen did a cute job with the silly phone call from Dean to Claire - probably his best scene and, again, one he ironically could have phoned in from Austin. The guys were fine when they were there, though I disagree about them being on the same page as Sam, somewhat predictably, continues to be more and more aligned with the BMoL, and Dean just seems to be along for the ride because Sam is there and he has nothing else to do? Mick getting the kill was 100% predictable because more and more of the guest stars do now, and Dean never does anymore - it's become a drinking game meme as to how Dean specifically will not get the kill again this week, or how he'll be kept far away from the fight only to show up when it's all said and done at the end. I've even started thinking Dean should just clear out the trunk of the Impala and use it to haul Meals on Wheels or something imminently more practical since he doesn't appear to need weapons anymore. Dabb et. al.'s relentless focus on the BMoL and Mary, being pretty much one in the same, continues to make the Winchester leads look like rubes. I found it ironic when Dean tells Mick not to tell him how to do his job, since that appears to be exactly the message coming across week after week, especially since it looks like the BMoL and their 007 lair of tricks and gadgets has become the weekly norm. I don't dislike Mick, he seems perfectly okay as far as being the latest frenemy addition to the show. But I do feel he probably has more stake in a potential spin-off than the aging mother ship.

Well, Bloodlines was always in Dabb's, er, blood, so to speak. So I wouldn't be surprised since I feel like that's where he's been heading all season anyway.

I do believe our lovely Cajun vamp holds that distinction. Maybe that's why Jensen continues to want him back so badly. Heh. I am adjusting my idea of why Dean remembered Mary one way when she's clearly not even a little that way - i.e., maternal or loving. I agree that John idealized her and his relationship with her to Dean, and because Dean was so young and still barely more than a toddler when she died, John's pimping definitely worked its way into Dean's brain to explain why he thought of her the way he did until she came back. It would make complete sense that a child so young, who would normally start to forget almost everything about a parent who died so long ago, would be very much influenced by what another parent had to say about her throughout the years. But as we saw in the hunter funeral episode, Mary was probably not that woman, given her wanting to run off - to another country, mind you - to hunt, leaving behind a baby with John, being perfectly aware she might die on a hunt and never return, and clearly not caring about that as much as the hunt. Thinking back to DSotM, and assuming Zachariah was messing with the guys' heads to get them to a 'yes' place, my head canon is telling me now that Dean might be mis-remembering which parent actually stayed home while the other left the house for a while - because now it would make more sense that it was Mary, and not John (though if John did leave at one time, maybe we can't blame him given Mary's habit of leaving without good explanation). But, too, that the Mary Zach throws at Dean at the end who was bitter and blames him for her death might have been tapping into more of reality than we imagined then. IMO she fits much better with the Mary we're getting now. Personally I think Mary threw out the idea to Dean and Sam of wanting to be with the memory of her babies as the best excuse she could come up with not to get to know them or want to be with them, because just telling them she wants little to nothing to do with them certainly doesn't make her look good, and she knows that. But I don't buy that shtick anymore, and I hope Dean doesn't either.