AES13

Has anyone else been feeling a distinct lack of excitement for the end of the season? It might be a combination of lacklustre TV and the sporadic airing of the shows I watch but this is the first year since I can remember that I haven't felt the thrill and anxiety building up to the season finales of a lot my shows. Madam Secretary - did not even realize it was the finale until a few days later; Agents of Shield - I like most of the parts but the whole is not greater, somehow. Person of Interest - no urgency like there was last year; Arrow - the only burning question I have is if they can stick just enough of the landing that I'll tune in next year. Flash is the only one I'm truly anticipating and that's just because I want to see what happens with Wells; otherwise, meh... Has it been that bad a year, or just the particular shows I watch? Is it primarily the scheduling with the 2 weeks on, 3 weeks off problem?

Well, we might be long-lost twins, dancingnancy, because I'm the exact same way. I'm a non comic-book reading, almost 50 year old female. I see the movies I like multiple times in the theatre (5 if I love it); I saw DKR once and any time I consider doing a mini marathon of the Batman movies, the fact that DKR is at the end makes me reluctant to even start. The Marvel movies I didn't care for I'll go and see it at least once more, assuming that my dissatisfaction is due to unwarranted high expectations. I was disappointed with Guardians but I still saw it 3 times in the theatre and now have a somewhat grudging affection for it. A major difference to me is that Marvel has been so consistent that I'm willing to take a chance on an unknown character/story/director like Ant-Man whereas with DC, I'm just really hoping they don't screw up Superman by making him into an alien Batman. It'd be nice to leave the theatre feeling happy and hopeful rather than needing a stiff drink.

I love Olicity but Flash has Arrow beat in 2 ways IMO. Iris is treated pretty crappily by the writers/characters and I get angry on her behalf. I can't say the same for Laurel. I think it's a combination of Iris' warmth and how she treats those around her. It also means that while Iris is removed (or was) from the main plot, I'm not annoyed at having to put up with her scenes. Secondly, Flash is just more fun to watch. Yes, I'm an adult; I know bad things happen to good people. Do I want to see that illustrated every episode with no hope at the end? Nope! Don't get me wrong, I'm watching Arrow until the hopefully-not-bitter end; I just wish I enjoyed it more.

Given your disclaimer, I don't understand how you can make a comparison between the two. And despite saying that it's not a competition, you appear to be saying that DC is better than Marvel. I feel that Marvel has done an excellent job of making movies that are not cookie-cutter at all. They've been straight-up superhero origin stories (Iron Man), a period piece (Captain America), Shakesperian fantasy (Thor), wacky space opera (Guardians), and spy thriller (Winter Soldier). On the other hand, DC's heroes and locales are "different" but the latest movies seem to have one mindset and tone: go darker! I loved Batman Begins, learned to love the Dark Knight, tried unsuccessfully to really like TDKR, and really wanted to love Man of Steel but they're all so dark and depressing, it's exhausting. The reason, IMO, that DC can't "compete" with Marvel is that their movies are all lacking one thing: joy. They're joyless exercises that are not fun to watch for the most part. When DC heroes succeed, I feel grimly satisfied but know that any happiness in life is likely to be fleeting. When Marvel heroes succeed, I feel gleeful and excited and happy to plunk my money down to watch it again. The only thing I would change about Marvel's movies is I would tell Stan Lee that he can only make cameos for the post-credit stingers; otherwise, his appearances yank me out of the film each and every time, and I find that annoying. My own disclaimer: I don't read the comics and am basing my opinions purely on the movies.

...when someone uses "bs" in a sentence and it takes a while before you realize that they didn't mean "abs". :)

I hope it's deliberate in the sense that Felicity is not being herself while she's dating Ray. I'm worried that it's the CW sexifying her since people who are warm and genuine aren't nearly as attractive as someone who's "sexy", at least from their point of view it seems.

I'm on the same page as you, Redsox7819. Don't get me wrong, I'm still watching and enjoying the show but I'm hope/fear-watching. I hope for the best but my fear that I'm about to be betrayed again means that when Roy "died" all I could think is why him and not Laurel? Colton Haynes' start was rocky (partially due to the fact I'm too old to find him that attractive) but little by little, he has really grown on me. Those first thankless episodes at the beginning of the season where he had maybe 1 or 2 lines didn't help him much but when I compare the benefit of the doubt that I'm willing to accord Roy compared to Laurel, there is no contest. I feel like he had masses of room to grow, and Laurel has none, or at least none that I have patience for. The happiness I felt at his survival could not be maintained when it became clear he would no longer be a part of the show. Thea's "death" at the end was simultaneously shocking (i.e. "Really, we're going to go with yet another close female family member's death to propel the climax of the season?") and dull acceptance. I mean Oliver has not actually started cutting himself yet, so obviously we still have a ways to go for him to hit rock bottom, right? I'm sorry to say that the longer they keep grinding Oliver down, the more I'm preferring the Flash to Arrow. Yes, it can be cartoony and childish at times (and don't get me started on Iris' dad and boyfriend colluding to keep the delicate flower in the dark - at least until Eddie marries her, at which point, as her owner he gets to decide what she's told, apparently!) but all in all, it's just more enjoyable to watch IMO.

What I can't get over is Laurel taking a running leap off the building. Maybe I'm wrong but it certainly looked to me like she didn't have a rappel line and only avoided certain death because Oliver swung over to pick her up. Am I supposed to think that she just panicked, or was she really willing to die to get away from the police?

Anyone else wonder how they got the shape shifter technology from the other side? ;) Enjoyed everything except for the treating Iris like a mushroom. Surely she could better protect herself if she knew she was at risk!

Thanks for this; that polka one is high-larious! I also hated the original score; it's right up there with Enterprise's IMO for the worst, uninspiring theme.

Thanks, TVEcho, that was cute and the one beneath it was even funnier!

I am still really enjoying The Flash - is so much more comic-booky and fun than Arrow. One issue though is that the solution to nearly every problem seems to be for Barry to run faster. I'd like them to show him getting smarter and strategizing more, as Oliver suggested.

I feel the same as you, KirkB. Arrow is no longer must watch TV for me so the bar is much lower on keeping me satisfied. I only watch it on the night it airs so I can run back to this forum and read the (sometimes hilarious) reactions. Probable deal breakers - Zombie Lauriver, or Felicity and Diggle being written out.

I'm sorry to say that I didn't enjoy this episode nearly as much as everyone else seemed to. It was lovely to see Oliver & Felicity behave as they used to with each other but I don't understand how they can. It's nice not to have the angst shoved down your throat like it usually is, but I didn't take much comfort in Felicity not showing any ambivalence regarding keeping Oliver in her live on a platonic basis. It just doesn't make sense to me that she would be happy with that. I bitch a lot about when I believe the characters are not acting in character and we end up with these ridiculously convoluted plots to manufacture angst; I can't bitch less just because the result this time is more pleasant to watch. Well, I could but where's the fun in that? :) My issues with this episode: Felicity's seemingly complete and happy acceptance of a platonic relationship with Oliver Oliver and Thea being willing to house Malcolm for no reason at all; now that the LOA is no longer hunting him, why are they still offering him any kind of hospitality or protection? Ra's coming to Starling City to personally make the Arrow persona non grata; doesn't he have a League of lackeys to do that for him? The re-ignition of Lance's hatred of the Arrow as a deflection of his anger towards Laurel's betrayal Laurel's petulance and narcissism I've often felt that the show runners believe that they are making must-see TV because they keep surprising their audience but I think that the surprises come from not writing their characters consistently week to week. This week it seemed like they turned on a dime and suddenly gave us what we wanted without making it remotely organic. YMMV... PS - I'm not a fan either of Matt Nable's Ra's; he doesn't have the presence or the gravitas or the menace, IMO.

My problem with Ray is I don't like or dislike him; I haven't seen enough about his character to be able to judge. He's there to slow down the inevitable Olicity romance but I don't know anything about him apart from his purpose in the story. They haven't given him enough layers to make him the least bit interesting to me.

The problem to me is writing something so poorly that by the time you get to the glorious well-written finale, there is no one left to appreciate it.

Now that my expectations have been lowered and I no longer expect anything particularly meaningful from the show, I have to say that I loved this episode! I've never laughed so much before; it was just that ridiculous! Everything was just so on-the-nose, it was painful at times but mostly painfully funny. When Maseo mentioned that even with facepaint a green hoodie was not enough to hide your identity, I realized that subtlety was not something to be looking for from these writers. I'm ambivalent about the retcons: on the one hand, if you've watched the show from the beginning, they were amusing; on the other hand, how can you trust these writers if they can literally re-write history without a qualm? I loved Thea and Oliver working together on the island and I really enjoyed seeing Slade again, although I also expected him to have come to some realizations about his own mental state after being cured of the Mirakuru. I also loved Quentin's telling off Laurel at Sara's grave site although the scene included the "heading towards the mask" line which made me roll my eyes hard and wonder at the level of Laurel's self-delusion. All in all, I truly enjoyed the episode, probably the first one since TSOOFS. If you check your brain at the door, you can truly appreciate the magnificent eye candy and WTFery this show provides.

The worst of it, IMO, is that I don't know why anyone is doing what they're doing. They don't allow the characters to explain themselves to each other so I don't even know whose side I'm on! We don't know how anyone feels about what's going on either. Having to fanwank emotions and motivations based on what we're presented is so tiring. Maybe the ambiguousness or outright murkiness is deliberate on the writer's part to up the DRAMA! of a big reveal at the end. All I can say is it's hard to keep watching this mess of a plot in hopes that'll it will all make sense in the end. :(

I've been a con goer since 2003 - the first con I went to was following the end of Buffy when I thought the actors would not be doing cons for much longer. I love them for the Q&As which can be quite fun. Last year, I went to Fan Expo in Vancouver for the first time. I live here so the only cost was for the ticket which I think was about $70 for the 3 days. I also paid extra to have pictures with SA, MB, and Karl Urban. Photo ops can be a mixed bag because with some it's exactly like shadow2008 described: 15 seconds of standing next to someone and a thank you. With others...let me just say that I was weak at the knees after being hugged by Manu Bennett. He smelt fantastic and made me a fan for life. Social media can be a minefield and there're lots of good reasons for celebrities to have someone else manage their on-line presence. I am happy to put up with the occasional faux pas on SA's page because he puts a lot of time and effort into interacting with his fans. The downside of it being his personally run page is that few if any will question the direction of the show or criticize an episode which means it tends to be a bit of an echo chamber.

I was offended at the line like a lot of us where but in the end, the meaning I ascribed to it was that Sara was not hopeful or optimistic that she could atone for what she had had to do to survive. She, like Oliver, seemed to feel the weight of the world on their shoulders. She did what she could to help others but honestly did not seem to expect to ever be free of the guilt. Laurel seems not to be burdened by any guilt (from what I can tell) so I think their affects reflect that. It's increasingly difficult to differentiate between crap and purposeful writing on this show, one of the reasons that it's hard for me to give up on it. I'm hopeful that the writers are just idiots instead of malicious and that maybe they'll smarten up, sooner rather than later.

The writers just keep screwing up, right and left. They indicate they're aware of the problems but make no attempt to solve them. It's like they want to give the fans what they've been asking for but do it so poorly that they won't be asked for anything else. This episode reminded me of the Smallville episode where Lois gets a job at the Daily Planet. No struggle, no cleverness demonstrated - she's just handed one. It felt like the writers were saying "See, she's working for the Planet. Happy now?" and the answer then and now is a resounding hell, no! All these niggling plot threads (Thea being clued in, Quentin finding out the truth, Laurel being accepted as one of the team) were resolved but in pretty much the worst possible way. Everything felt very anti-climatic to me. I agree that the Oliver-Thea scene was sweet but was it earned? I don't think so. If Thea had expressed some disbelief, incredulity, if Oliver had explained a little bit about his torturous years away, I could buy Thea eventually coming around, but instantly? Oliver was willing to tell her everything except for the fact that the person he wants them to team up with basically roofied her and made her into a murderer which once again, leaves her without the ability to make the choices she should be making for herself. I felt Laurel and Quentin's scene was well acted (quelle surprise, right?) except that Laurel seemed to be doing the same gasping weeping cry she was doing while overdosing on Vertigo. And, again, it's hard for me to feel sympathy for someone who seems so intent on putting herself in these situations. Having to write Diggle and Felicity as completely out of character to justify their support of Laurel makes me resent Laurel, not Diggle or Felicity because never in a million years would I buy Felicity comparing Sara unfavourably to Laurel, or that Diggle would stand by while injured Laurel goes to rescue some hostages. I'm sort of glad that the bloom was already off the rose for me with this show because instead of feeling betrayed, I laughed at all the ridiculous crap they pulled in this episode. I wish I could watch it like the Realm Cast podcasters because they seem to watch solely for the plot, the action, and the heroes. I love their podcasts and find them really funny but they don't attempt to analyse the writing at all and just accept everything at face value. It must be a lot easier to enjoy something when you're not looking for any meaning in it and unfortunately, that's what Arrow seems to becoming: meaningless.

I guess I don't see where she's been written the way you depict her. The "worst" thing I've seen her do is take a high paying, high status job with Palmer Technologies and not warn Oliver that the company was changing names. Given that Oliver himself was not interested in trying to get the company back, I don't see her actions as an attempt to hurt him. Oliver has kept all the decision making vis a vis their relationship to himself, with no room for disagreement. Are we supposed to think that if she "really" loved him, she would do whatever he wants? because IMO that would make her a doormat, not selfless.

What I'm most upset about is that my primary emotions on watching this episode were apathy and disappointment. I did actually sit through all of Smallville's 10 year run, 5 years passed when I should have stopped, and I recognize that I will keep watching this show despite its nonsensical plot lines and OOC writing. I am no longer confident that it will be a an enthralling experience but hey, I still watch Supernatural, so I guess I'm used to just gritting my teeth and hanging on to the bitter end in hopes of getting a few decent moments each season. I can't emphasize enough how critically important it is in a genre show (supernatural, science fiction, superhero types) that your characters behave like human beings. I can suspend my disbelief for lots of outlandish things (Mirakuru, Kryptonite, the Flash, vampires and werewolves, oh my!) but if I can't believe that a reasonable person would behave the way they're portrayed, you've lost me. I'm not saying they can't be stupid human beings but the contortions necessary in Oliver's thinking to make teaming up with Malcolm a necessary or wise thing to do are unbelievable. It is that kind of writing, not the superhero bits, that are hobbling this show and stopping it from becoming anything more than a somewhat pleasant way to waste an hour.

What bothers me a lot about this show, and this episode in particular, is how much (but not all!) of the badness could be avoided with a few tweaks. Obviously removing Laurel isn't a small tweak, but do they have to write her as an ADA who essentially threatens defendants with death unless they do what she wants? They want her have fire and passion, and be the crusading lawyer out to right injustice, but she comes across as a self-righteous, smug cow with an "ends-justify-the-means" approach. Have her threaten him legally; that's her job and would have been enough to get what she wanted from him. (I like the idea above that she suggest to him that she'll let him go but put it out that he was cooperating with the police. Same result, and not despicable) Was I supposed to feel for her as she deceives her father and pretends to be her dead sister? Because that scene made me sick for Quentin's sake and disgusted with Laurel. Her masquerade as "Canary" was terrible but it would have been a better scene if Quentin had yelled out "And eat a sandwich, would you? You look too thin!" as she was leaving. It would have still been repulsive but at least we wouldn't think that Quentin has to be an idiot not to notice something. The Raylicity scenes could have been fine if there hadn't been the pregnant pause of "does Felicity like him too?" at the ends. Let Ray indicate he likes her, but have Felicity absent-mindedly smile at him and move on. Trying to suggest a week is sufficient time to start looking for a replacement for a dead loved one is fairly bizarre but more importantly, completely out of character for Felicity. The rescue of the aldermen didn't have to be a total clusterfuck with Diggle, of all people, opting to run the comms. All 3 of them could have gone and not having someone on communications, Laurel's inexperience, and Brick's savagery would have led to the same result but at least you wouldn't think Diggle a fool for having stayed in the foundry. I didn't like the hug between Laurel and Dig last week because their relationship didn't warrant it, but that was better than Laurel's parting shot to Diggle about having lost a sibling too. Had she made it into a question, a prompt for empathy, "you know what it's like to lose a brother so you understand why I'm doing this, right?" it would have played so much better. The writers seem to want us to sympathize with Laurel, but the way they write her as lashing out at others out of pain does not endear her to anyone; people have to like her first for that kind of behaviour to be seen sympathetically. What I find most infuriating is that the show has so much potential to be really good (the acting, the stunts, the cinematography, pretty much everything else really) but it just can't get there because the writers keep holding it back with the plot holes, the out of character moments to push an agenda, the dropping of some plot threads, the tired old tropes that get trotted out on the regular, etc. I want to love the show, have it last at least 7 seasons, and buy the entire series on Blu-Ray to re-watch later; I also want to be able to enjoy my Olicity fanfiction addiction, but if the show continues to degrade like this, my hopefulness will turn to apathy and, no matter how personable Stephen Amell is, I won't be interested in watching any more. Sorry for the diatribe! To end on a positive note, Roy is growing on me and his new haircut makes him look a lot less of a meathead. Felicity looked lovely. And, showing my age, I loved Oliver's hair and beard in the flashback! Are we sure these aren't flashbacks to the 80's? ;)

I have to admit to something: I'm starting to enjoy all the WTFery they're doing with Laurel, just because I know the reaction it'll get here. As I was watching last night, I kept laughing, thinking of all the glorious comments I would get to read. I can't say I was ever bored so on one level, the show was a total success. The only negative aspect I see is that at some point Laurel may become more of a main character and her delightful misadventures will no longer be amusing in their wrongheadedness but will doom the rest of the show. As long as she remains primarily a peripheral character, I can handle it . I missed Team Arrow last night mainly because usually Felicity is around to inject some humour into their situation. I would have loved to see her witness Oliver's DIY arrows and remind him that they would be dinged for them on check out. I know it's an odd criticism of a comic book hero show, but the lack of consistency regarding their financial situation bugs me. Oliver is living out of the basement of Verdant and is so broke that Felicity has to buy him a bed and he can't afford a present for baby Sarah. A week later, they're flying to South America, staying in a hotel and paying to bring Thea back with them. How? Where is Thea going to live? Does she have money? What frustrates me is that a lot of these questions could be answered with a throw away line; I don't need an in-depth discussion, just an acknowledgement that these things were considered.