Aeryn13

If the show was less one-sided in general with SuperMytharcChosenOne!Sam and sidekick!Dean, I`d agree because then it would be an even playing field so the question wouldn`t come up. But since I don`t think it is even, I want it for Dean. As for Lucifer, I don`t think they`ll be bringing him back. And Sam already took him out, apparently by the power of his own great will that is only next to God. Oh, he needed a small assist from a toy and a car, I guess that is why he is second to God. I`d rather have bleach dripped into my eyes then revisit that theme yet again. I never thought they actually showed humanity as this great thing. Sure, there was lip service to it but in the end for the big battles, supernatural specialness, superpowers and a mythic destiny are what mattered. That`s what IMO "saved the world" in the Season 5 Finale, not humanity and love. The trials actually made it really, really obvious: you had to get supernaturally special again with some mojo to be Mr.Trial. Whereas Mr.Human`s job was cooking, drawing baths and waving the pom-poms. Yup, I can see how "just humans" are the cream of the crop. Actually, it`s not that surprising. A supernatural show featuring supernatural beings is never that kind to just-humans. Those I watch, the purely human characters are the least interesting and it`s always a blessed relief when they become supernaturally special themselves.

I think they do - or at least the weakest ones do, writers like Glass IMO see worth in Dean, through solely as Sam`s valet and sidekick so maybe seeing him as a monster is still more complimentary - it`s just they are too clumsy and Jensen too skilled in smoothing things over to have that be the complete, black and white product. They are also pretty much tone-deaf. All the demonic vessels that get willy-nilly butchered every single episode aren`t even a blip on the radar screen but Sam moonlighting as a Crossroads Demon or Dean`s "massacre" of a couple of rapists who even physically attacked him in superior numbers is supposed to be mindblowingly "dark". So, as stupid as the field moment was with Sam falling Jesus pose into a hole to save the world and Dean kneeling on the ground to watch the heroics of the Saviour, I think THIS is the kind of affirmation these writers give. Because it`s the easiest common denominator for "all hail the great hero" storytelling. Hence, I`d wish for it for Dean, too. Maybe if they bring Metatron back as a real threat, Dean could get his redemptive moment and kill him at the end.

That only works if one thinks purely psychological stories are suficient or if they are this show can pull them off or it pulled this one off or it is even a good psychological story for the character. I`d disagree with all of those. So for me, Sam did get the better story, cool kill and all. Maybe it will be in ep 10? After all, it is written by the duo. But either way, even if they don`t spell it out plainly, it is IMO how the writers approach the character and the story and if your starting point is "born killer", no wonder there will never be something good coming from it. I`d happily settle for the affirmation like Sam has gotten it because to me he has in spades. If Dean got the same thing? Hooray.

But that`s the thing, the MOC story last year culminated in the demon thing. That got basically blinked out of existance. And the reasoning behind it is? We`re getting the same story from last Season now, warmed over. What, is this supposed to be an endless loop where Dean becomes a demon, Sam suirts holy water on him, gives him some blood and bam, back to the beginning? Or is it just about "Dean is a born killer" as the nepotism duo believes? They are writing episode 10 so I expect lots of "Dean is a sociopath with no goodness in him" meta in their next episode. God forbid this thing ends in a character affirmation where he is allowed to rise from the ashes and learns value in himself. And not in the "learns his place with Sam" or "learns how weak and how much of a loser he really is so he always needs the true hero`s help" or even "learns to love himself as the unimportant little sidekick" way. But that he learns that he is important and strong and whatnot. Though I guess that is perfectly silly with the current writers who made it clear that even in their meta episodes Dean-fans simply not exist in their minds. I guess the concept of liking that particular character is completely alien to them.

This "story" for Claire is idiotic. Oh gee, she lost such a great friend, just think how many more rapists he could have sold her to. I`m not saying she in any way has to like Dean but if that is her angle, I can`t even believe how her stupid ass made it so far. With her given backstory, I would have expected her to be tough, smart and not easily trusting aka when someone DOES betray her trust to file that away under "trust noone, everyone is an asshole". Apparently Jensen wasn`t shooting many days for episode 10 so I would expect Dean himself to have less screentime. Which would be perfectly okay if they focused the story on him. But if it gets diluted again with Cas and Claire doing their own thing? Meh. The mid-Season Finale should have been about the MOC proper, not the Claire show. Even when Dean has a story, they can`t make it the main point, it`s ludicrous. My main fear is that they will get rid of the MOC already in the next episode. After all, the one after that is the Charlie hour with guest stars (every Charlie ep is that now) and then comes the maybe-Dean-de-aged shtick which could be a filler episode. Cain could be back and angry because Dean has lost the Mark already (not to mention the Blade) and thus can`t fulfill his promise to kill him any more. And this Season alone has set a precedent for having Demon!Dean captured and cured in an ultra-lame, easy and quick way. Then a couple episodes nothing was done with it. Then we got at least two bad-ass kills and the mid-Season Finale graciously devoted 2 minutes of screentime to the Mark. It is perfectly reasonable IMO to expect that "story" to end with a whimper too, right in the next episode. I don`t believe for even one millisecond that the MOC will be the story featured in the second half of the Season. Sorry, show, I wasn`t born yesterday and after ten years of predictability, you are, well, predictable. That said, the "worst idea ever" is likely Metatron. Which I find pretty funny because "we`re in a jam, go to some superpowered being and try to use them in some way" has been their modus operandi forever now. Usually, their go-to-guy for this is Crowley but since he is out for obvious reasons and Metratron was sadly not even killed - couldn`t have given Dean that triumph at least in the Season 9 Finale - he makes sense.

And yet I wholeheartedly believe if he had a very different look physically, those scenes would take on a whole different tone. Writing-wise, I think they have nothing else but Homer-esuqe "humour" in mind in those scenes which is why I don`t count it as a character thing. Equally, there have been some references to Sam`s healthy eating. Usually, those are humour moments, too. Earlier in the show when his College past was more referenced, it was played as "he had a higher education and is therefore enlightened and eats greens" - yes, the writing totally always was this simplistic and silly in my mind - whereas these days it`s more "haha, look at the guy, as if he got that big on salad instead of steaks". It`s the same level of "character moment" or lack thereof that eating is for Dean IMO. In both cases, I`d say the reasons for it are shallow at best.

But it`s not anything more than a gimmick with Dean either, a comic relief that is actually not very complimentary on paper: haha, see the uncouth, uneducated sloth. In those moments they write for Homer Simpson. The only reason that it doesn`t come across like it onscreen is that Dean looks like Jensen Ackles so that is not a connection the mind goes to easily. With Sam, my problem isn`t that I don`t know the character. It`s that he consistently displays traits I just find off-putting. And that both in writing and acting those traits are displayed as great things. Which makes them vastly more off-putting for me. Now, Dean displays off-putting traits (for me personally, that is) too but because the writing always gets on his cases about them - and sometimes even with traits I find admirable - it creates the opposite effect for me. It`s actually while SoullessSam bugged me, too. It was just more of the things I can`t stand and had enough of at that point with the character. And still it was a continouus parade of "isn`t it funny/awesome/badass". For me, not so much. When the writing "gets on Sam`s case" for something, it is mostly just for stuff he can`t be blamed about which creates "oh, the poor martyr" effect. My main problem with the character was always ego/pride/hubris/superiority and it still is. They can put in scenes like "I`m the least of you" which don`t feel in the least bit genuine to me because it is still followed up by the greatest Chosen One who ever Chosened One pimping. So spare me the manipulation, writers. It was the same with the trials. And all the apologies that went the line of "I feel so bad because YOU DID this terrible stuff". Again, spare me. None of that I find endearing. Or feel sympathetic to. Meanwhile the scenes that speak to me, there are so far and few between because I think the writers feel it will besmirch and tarnish the character or something. When the Horseman of War had him prisoner and basically called him out on the pride thing or when the Demon Pride himself did? That ironically made me sympathetic to the character. Just because I think they have a point doesn`t me I don`t emphasize with having that trait or struggling with it or the difficulty to have it pointed out to you. But those get swallowed up in a sea of "my sweet, brave, caring Sam, there is nothing he can`t do" pointers. And seriously, the best, most likeable, most sympathetic character in all of fiction couldn`t survive that for long in my eyes.

As I understand it, purgatory was originally made as a prison for the Leviathans. But technically, they were God`s creation first, he just found them lacking. Now either he created Eve, too, and she went "off the reservation" as well, resulting in getting sent to the same prison or she is some evolutionary fluke coming from the Leviathans. Like a distant genetic cousin. If the Leviathans have souls, then it could mean Eve had one, too. If it works through simple reproduction - human have souls, humans have babies, those babies have also souls and so on and so forth, why would that not work for Eve? If she had one, all her offspring could have them, too. At first I think they all lived in Purgatory but more and more of her kids found a way back, especially the Alphas who procreated further on Earth. Only when they die, they go back "home" aka Purgatory. When Eve still lived there, I think Purgatory was populated by three kinds, Leviathans, the souls of dead monsters and whatever live offspring Eve still had there. By killing Eve, Dean actually dealt a pretty big blow to the monster "species". No new subsets can be created. The number there is right now is finite. Of course the existing ones can procreate and make more but I`m guessing no "reinforcements" from Purgatory. Eve once said she was okay with the existing system, her kids killed some humans, the hunters killed some of them, balance. What puzzles me is Cole. His father was apparently a creature of some unknown kind. Lets say the mother was human. If Cole was a creature as well, I assume he would know about it? Feel some transformations, some urges or whatever? We have seen some "halfblood" monsters before, the Rugaru was one and he found out alright. Shapeshifter have kids who turn out shifters as well. In all these cases, the "monster" gene seems to be the dominant one yet in Cole`s case it was recessive? How else would he be human. I know, I know, the answer I`m looking for is: the writers didn`t even put half a thought into those things other than whatever they considered a wow-factor for five seconds.

I`ll say in terms of chemistry Delena back in Season 1 and 2 eclipsed all other pairings for me. By a mile. Hot like burning. Since they became an actual couple, they did have some moments where it shined through again but by and large, the connection has, ironically, decreased. That said, Damon and Bonnie`s best moment in the old days was probably their dance at some of the gazillion decade dances they went to. When Damon, while making it clear, that his priority was saving Elena from Klaus, nevertheless genuinely inquired about possibilities to increase Bonnie`s own odds of survival. I think on some level he always respected her. Maybe even liked. After all, mocking and talking semi-disdainfully to someone is a Damon-trademark. He does that even when he likes them, take Alaric for example. The only time Damon mostly refrains from that (if not entirely stops it) is when he worships the ground someone walks on. See Exhibit E(lena) for that. I think Damon has categories within the group. Stefan and Elena are obviously in 1, those he loves. I`d put Alaric there, too. Category 2 are those he likes but would never admit to it. Bonnie used to be in this. And... I`m kinda drawing a blank who else. Category 3 are the "whatevers", like Matt and Tyler. Jeremy seems to move from 2 to 3 and back randomely. Caroline was firmly in 3 but may have moved up to 2? Enzo is a bit of special case with the tortured prisoners history but probably 1. Now Bonnie has clearly been upgraded from 2 to 1. It won`t supercede his feelings for Stefan or Elena but I`m not sure anyone ever will.

I think they did for Bonnie`s "funeral" when she was a ghost and before she became the anchor. Even typing that makes me feel bad for the character. She just can`t catch a break. It`s probably a good thing she has Damon in her corner right now because comparatively speaking amongst their group, he is one of the most likely to get shit done. Make a huge mess doing so maybe but get it done. And he is mostly right. Alaric is an idiot, Jo is an idiot, Liv is an idiot, the whole Gemini coven are idiots. I give Luke some wriggle room since he spoke some sense. Kai is a highly entertaining bad guy and I`m glad he is sticking around but letting him live was stupid. Because it is entirely based on a concept so stupid it defies stupidity: twins must merge in the Gemini coven. Says who? Your barbaric customs? Throw them the hell out. Other covens manage without it so it`s not a pre-requisite for witchery. Also, is merging not a choice like taking your magic back? Then how in the hell could anyone enforce it on witches who "just say no"? If I was a twin of any Gemini kind, I`d just give them the finger. What would they do, throw a tantrum at me? Even Kai is a true Gemini in this sense because his single goal is the stupid merging ceremony. I could see it in the flashbacks because it would have been the only way for him to gain permanent access to magic but he just got souped something good. Give it a try at least and see how long it lasts, Kai-ster. This single-minded "must merge" goal speaks to some serious brainwashing going on in that coven. Luke is seriously the most likeable of the bunch. Liv acted reprehensively. Is this the same person who kept the spell going in the Season 5 Finale despite it nearly killing her and despite the group losing their leverage early on? The same person who spared Tyler a kill and did it herself? When did she turn into such a selfish coward? I had no great love for the character but she seemed tougher than that. With Jo, my problem is mainly the actress. She just can`t seem to bring any warmth to the role. And for 99 % of her scenes, her face looks dour. That makes it extra hard to even understand Ric`s devotion to her over helping Bonnie. When he called Damon selfish for wanting to help Bonnie? Wanted to slap him. What do you think, YOU are, mate, for prioritizing your hook-up of five minutes over the magic ATM of the group for 5 years?

I agree. I have an instant hate-on for characters that come on a show and get pimped down my throat at the expense of characters I already favour. Now I also think that the writers in general have little idea on what "sells". The promo monkeys of the mid-Season Finale knew to make an exciting promo about a certain story but the writers didn`t have enough of a business to actually write an episode about it. Sure, they land some hits but IMO it`s mostly by accident these days. Characters that get embraced almost always seem to be one-offs, not intended to come back or only play out a a short arc. Hence, the writers don`t put much thought into "how can I get the audience to instantly like them? Oh, I know, I will make them awesome and wonderful at everything, outclassing the leads at every turn. Fans will FOR SURE love them for it". So lack of interest = lack of pimping = audience may like them. Meanwhile a character that is slated for a longer run, they will go the opposite way, in 9 out of 10 cases ensuring that people hate them. And then be all confused and disappointed in interviews why their awesome characters didn`t click and it must be due to audience bias in some way or viewers "doing it wrong". Cole, I don`t think he was much of a spin-off character. For one, he is not CW age. At least not CW age when a show starts. I know the character is supposed to be younger in the show but the actor doesn`t look the part. That`s why it was blatantly ridiculous that twenties!Dean was supposed to have killed his Dad when he was a boy. And yet as adults they look like peers. If they had done the right age, i.e. casted someone very early twenties now, it would have fit the canon timeline AND the CW mold. It`s difficult to do a spin-off of Supernatural anyway. At least if you want to do something in the spirit of the mothership. Another hunting pair travelling the country to whack monsters? Bloodlines had supernatural elements in it but it was more like a copy of the Originals. Or the old Kindred the Embraced. It had diddly squat to do with any of the themes in Supernatural. And if you don`t carry on with a certain well-established character (or characters) from the mothershow (Originals) or with a certain theme (every Star Trek spin-off show, the Stargate spin-offs, the NCIS spin-offs, Flash) or both (Xena, Angel), there really is no point in doing a spin-off in the first place. You are just doing a random show then, that for some reason you have decided to put into the same universe as another show, but that is way too flimsy a connection to give viewers of that first show even the slightest incentive to tune into the new one. So if the whole reason to do a spin-off - audience grab - vs. doing a completely new show falls away, it would be way easier to do a new show because it yields the same results (people check it out and either like it or don`t) and you are not beholden to some pre-established canon.

But if Sam doesn`t know, wouldn`t he assume that Cas` instincts would be to help/save Dean first and foremost? Which may lend itself to a situation where, say, Sam would leave Cas to watch over Dean in good faith, not thinking Cas could mean any harm. In this case, Cas would be a "Trojan horse", so to speak. It`s not bad thinking strategically.

I think they said this, about Abaddon anyway. First, everyone thought archangels killed off all the Knights of Hell (sans Abaddon) but then they exposited that they could be killed with the Blade. Which kinda makes sense since Cain created that order himself and it was his weapon. Now, archangels for sure could have done it but none were available, that`s why Dean jumped at the chance with the Mark and Blade. With Metatron, I think they saw it as an "hm, that could work" thing. It`s a powerful tool of destruction so they gave it a shot. But even then, they were aware that they needed to de-power Metatron. With his connection to the tablets, he was too strong for any weapon.

Since Lucifer is the creator of demons, I think he has some control over the "engineering" process, so to speak. The usual way is to twist a soul over time but maybe he took short-cuts with his first ones, like Lilith as well. Since the Mark came from him and was basically his brand on Cain to finalize their deal, I think it served as another manufactoring short-cut on how to make a demon. After all, Lucifer is/was always an archangel, he never changed species and he never lost his powers, even during imprisonment so he could probably pull off making a demon however he pleased. Now it`s also possible that doing so via Mark takes more power and was therefore not suitable for "mass production". Or - even more likely from what we`ve seen of Lucifer - he was just an ornery brat and liked the normal process with everything that it entailed (the giant finger to his absent daddy figure especially) but wanted something special for Cain. Especially if he knew the guy was a good enough man to try and kill himself to avoid becoming a remorseless killer. What could be crueler to not grant him that relief and instead go for the insta-demonization? So if that is what the Mark does, it is IMO what it would do to everyone who willingly? received it. It insta-transforms to a demon upon death by the power of Lucifer invested in it.

I have to believe even this show wouldn`t sink so low as to swap Adam out for Dean and thus kick Dean out of his own story AGAIN. I can totally see the Dean character being screwed over yet again but using the same bit part character for it would certainly take balls.

AwesomO4000, I guess we can agree to disagree. I just can`t see in any way, shape or form where Dean got something remotely equal to Sam`s hero quest so far in the show, not the Leviathans, not Purgatory, nothing. And in Sam`s big quests - Lucifer and the trials - what Dean "got" was like nitric acid in the wound. Heck, stuff like Head!Bobby putting Dean in his place about any delusions of grandeur in helping with a trial and then have Sam validated by Death himself who came to fangirl? That is just hammering it home. However, I think you have a good chance to get your wish, Sam saving his brother because said brother is apparently too weak and so easily falls to evil and Sam`s save this time will not be tarnished in any way. There will probably be some dialogue on how Sam had the MOC, he would of course be able to control it and how Dean wished he would only be as awesome as Sam. I dread it already. While there is NO chance in hell I`ll get my wish of a big epic Dean-world-save-moment. If anything, Dean`s "redemption" might be another Suck Song ultimately, i.e. learning to kneel on the ground and let his much more special brother go on to save the world. I would not at all be surprised if the show ended with this, having the character know his place as a good little sidekick again while Sam went out in glory.

Upon rewatch, one thing that cracked me up? When Klaus and Hailey are driving up to see Hope, Rebekah and Elijah, Klaus has his seatbelt on. Which, ahahahaha. Say what you want about Klaus Mikaelson but he is a responsible driver.

I guess we differ in how we approach the show because I don`t really care too much what matters or doesn`t matter to the characters themselves. It`s not really a concern for me, I watch mainly to get affirmation for me. Not sure if I`m explaining this right but I was happy as a clam that Dean went to hell at the end of Season 3. Not because I hate the character because I figured for ME, there could be a great story, a true hero`s quest (and going to the underworld is a big part of it) coming from it. Equally, I knew right from the start that taking on the Mark of Cain would bring disastrous results and that the character only did it because he was so fatalistic at this point, he didn`t care. And yet, I fist-pumped that moment because hooray for a story. So, Dean finding a happy identity and whatnot just does not interest me at all because I don`t see even remotely an interesting story there. It might be good for the character but I find it boring to watch. I`d much rather see him do something extraordinary and interesting. Happy-ends and all that are for when the show is over. For the same reason I`d have been totally okay if Dean and Sam would have fallen into the plothole at the end of Season 5 and that had been the end of the show. Dean would have played out his part of the mytharc, gotten equal credit in the world save and had a big hero`s out. So canonically him and Sam would have ended with the prospect of neverending torment. Big whoop. That leaves me free to fantasize how they got out and all that. I don`t mind that. I guess in the most basic terms I just don`t want the characters I care for do boring stuff and personal journeys to happiness with nothing else happening, with no grandesque mythic context, is utterly boring stuff to me. I believe that is just a natural bi-product of the show not ending after any of these moments. Of course bigger and badder stuff needs to come, otherwise there would be no further story. But that doesn`t mean the hero`s quest itself gets devalued. I consider it the whole point actually. It is certainly why I personally watch genre stuff in the first place.

I couldn`t disagree more and quite frankly, I find this even offensive. Just because Dean doesn`t see himself as a hero or a big Chosen One on a quest doesn`t mean his life`s work is not worthy of the moniker. What, unless someone is full of himself, their heroic acts don`t count as such? And I also disagree about this being a valuable journey or purpose, especially in a show like this. Even if people start out as mundane and nothing special to make a show/story about them, they will become extraordinary in some way. If Peter Parker had never been bit by a radioactive spider, there would be no comic serious about him because he would just be a random nerdy kid and that isn`t material for one. And I`ve always greately disliked boiling down the show to "this is Sam`s story, seen through Dean`s eyes" because it basically admits that he is just a lower-tier sidekick. The character is interesting enough to have his own story. Always was. He can do more than narrate Sam`s. Or Cas. Or Crowley`s. Who are apparently all deemed worthy enough to have epic, mytharc stories. Ànd they are supporting cast. Thing is, I don`t remotely count Purgatory as an epic journey for Dean. It could have been but what it ended up was a couple of flashbacks that, while fun to watch, held no larger meaning to anything mythic and the story of Purgatory stopped being about Dean in ep 2, then the flashbacks were "the mystery of Castiel". After that was solved, it was dropped and never to be spoken off again until they sent Sam there on his super-trial to hop and skip through Purgatory. I consider it ones of the most truncated Dean-stories in the show. Equally, Season 7 and the Leviathans weren`t a Dean-story in my eyes. And the happenstance win with the assisstance of Castiel was not even remotely close to what Sam got with his Chosen One 100 % thing in 5.22 If I had to attribute percentages here, Sam got 100 % and Dean got 15 % of what I consider the "big moment". Giving the trials to Sam was just the final blow, to be honest. The second big hero`s quest introduced in the show and it goes to Sam again? Sorry, no matter the narrative excuses for it, that was IT for me. I perked up a bit with the MOC being introduced but so far, it is all about how evil/dark/bad Dean is so I`m not really sure, they mean to give the character an actual redemption at the end. Let alone a big one. I wouldn`t mind if I saw them as unequal in such a way. But I`m truly, honestly seeing as Sam is at the finish line and Dean at the starting point. So, the only disparity that remains is for Dean. He is the only one who needs to catch up, Sam already has all the laurels. In terms of brother`s saves, well, Dean`s are also tainted, aren`t they? He made the deal - that was wrong. He gave Sam his soul back - Ì`ve read enough "that was rape" meta, he asked for the trials to be stopped - even I think that was fucked up and then the angel possession - that was in no way good. Whereas Dean was a demon and now is out of control with the Mark of Cain - and has even said, he doesn`t want to be that thing - so automatically everything Sam does gets played in a more positive light. Which is the thing, Sam gets the better world save, the "better" hell (in terms of more gruesome) and the better save. Just give me a break, show.

Is Sam the biggest Martyr who ever Martyred? Because all I want for Dean is a moment like Sam got it in Suck Song. If that was not too much to ask for one character, I fail to see how it is for another. In terms of character growth, I`m not against it. Just not in the way of "eh, this time I`ll let the hard tasks be carried out by someone else". I would never root for a character who does that and I like that Dean doesn`t do it. That has IMO nothing to do with arrogance but to me heroism, the instinct to want to help other people, possibly spare them from having to compromise themselves. It doesn`t have to always work out for one person to sacrifice themselves, that`s fine. Having help and assistance is fine. Team-work is fine. But I would never ever t Dean to lose that heroic instinct. And "eh, this time I`ll let Sam/some other person do the dirty work because I`ve done enough"? Not my idea of heroic. Which, speaking of, that was neither. If they had aborted the trials with the reasoning of "hey, we learned that something bad might come from this, like all the evil souls trapped on Earth", that would have been a-okay. But you don`t undertake a heroic quest that you actually think will benefit humanity and then weasel out at the 11th hour to not die. That is the opposite of heroism. So it was completely unacceptable as a motivation for me. If Dean had the one in Sam`s place, he `would have thought death worth it. And, positing closing hell permanently would have actually been purely beneficial to humanity - I don`t believe it but for argument`s sake - then hell, yes, Dean`s death would have been worth it. Sam`s too. Dean`s problem here was a pathological need to not allow Sam`s death. Which made him act in ways totally beneath him. That is what he needs to grow out of. I already have a show full of protagonists that go "fuck others, us first" and that`s fine for that show but not for Supernatural because it hasn`t been set up like this.

I completely disagree. To me, that is the progression from being a hero to a selfish coward. And I`m not talking Dean and Sam here, I`m talking someone who is always willing to do what`s necessary in the line of duty, even the hard tasks, going to someone who pushes others into the line of fire. I find that disgusting. So, if we keep that "character growth" away from Dean, I`d be very happy. I`m in no way a Sam-fan but even I don`t think that`s somethng he does either. Because narratively, that`s what the weasely bad guys do. And not even the main bad ones but the pathetic henchguys. Yikes. But Sam still already had his big world sacrifice/save hero moment. And Dean didn`t get anything on that same level. Just as Sam had the multiple-episodes arcs, the Chosen One-state and the mytharc plots and all that. If Dean already had all that as well, it wouldn`t be such a problem for me now either. I could be way more magnanimous with the big plots and hero-dom going to others. In reverse I`d be totally fine with the POV, emotional feels and guest star connections et all going to other characters. It never meant as much to me in the first place and Dean had plenty. I`d trade it all a way in a heartbeat for what Sam got in the past.

See for me "personal journey" is code-word on this show for "less important sidekick". That is what it ultimately means, that is what it boils down to. You can make a personal journey epic or rather, have a personal journey, with an epos. I mean Sam going from "I`m afraid I`m going dorkside" to "world-saving" has been a personal journey as well. So basically, it was both. How well it was executed is another matter but the gist of it was both personal and epic. So why should I be content with Dean getting the crumbs from the table in only getting one part, the lesser part and even that is mangled up. I gotta say for a drama I might - barely - accept this but in a genre show if all a character journey amounts to is that, with ten (or more) years of storytelling, I feel like it was a bloody waste of time. Like, is that seriously all there is? Is that all the character amounted to? Especially when he was fine enough when the show started. A former villain finding redemption might be something else but Dean while he did have issues at the start of the show, wasn`t THAT bad off. Only over the course of ten years they broke him down to nothing and if it ends nowhere else than roughly at the starting point, why bother? Why have the character in the first place if only just going in a meaningless circle? I laughed in that old comedy Seinfeld when they pitched a show "about nothing" but well, that was because it was so ridiculous. And you can kinda pull it off with a comedy to some degree. But a show with two characters shouldn`t seriously be about "one`s epic journey of herodom who saves the world" while the other characters is basically about nothing.

I do think it`s a series-level failure. Big time. However, I also know with Carver`s mumblings about personal arcs and no cohesive plot etc, I can kiss any chances of that happening goodbye. It won`t happen, I know that. The thing is just, it makes me MORE mad. When it was Sam`s turn to go beige-side, then it was all fine and dandy to have the Chosen One-ness coming out of his butt with the big world-saving. For Dean? Eh, lets not even bother to give the character something epic. Bury it somewhere in a disjointed mess without a real plot and hey, if the characters gets trashed too much? Whatever, too. What a surprise. The writers choose how to approach this so "it can`t happen in this Season" is not an acceptable excuse to me. If they wanted to for Dean, they could make it happen. If it was Sam, they WOULD make it happen IMO. Even this Season. That`s why I see it as crap.

At this point in the show, I`m just completely sick of Dean only getting the small-fry versions. It`s not good enough for me anymore. I want the big, epic scenes, the epic world-saving all alone in the Season Finale, the epic Chosen One-ness and the big acknowledgment. Right now I`m like: screw the small scenes. Make the Mark of Cain epic. And give Dean a full-scale world saving redemption. Have it in dialogue how his strength allowed him to contain the Mark as he did and that noone else could have. Of course have it be validated onscreen as well. Don`t insult me with crap like the speech in Trial and Error how Dean is a great hunter, a genius at lore and far more than a grunt and, after already showing him as totally failing as a hunter five minutes before that, gleefully go on to make him Dumbie McDumberson at lore and then turn him into something even a grunt would laugh at and mock. In short, don`t sell me battery acid as fine wine, show.

No, I am actually talking about strength of character because to me the show put this VERY, VERY much in question. By having John supposedly not break and flush all the righteous man mythology down the train when a bit character like Adam got the more important role, that is basically worthless these days. And in the Carver era we haven`t had acknowledgment of Dean having strength of character really. There is a lot on how he was wrong, weak, selfish, cowardly and all that. What Sam described Dean being as a person - and having ALWAYS been as a person - what he generalized Dean to be was somethin akin to Randy in the last episode, the little coward who sells out a girl to rapists to save his own skin. The show never gave the message that this was supposed to be bullshit and lots of fandom see it as "harsh truths" as well. Not the "I lied" and not running after Demon!Dean to cure him negates the words to me. This wasn`t the first time that Sam said stuff like this, though never THAT much denigration of character, and then tries to keep Dean from dying or something at other times. Again, IMO, that is where I see the clear line between love and respect and why I want the respect. So, yeah, the Mark makes him go off the rails with a violent rage, hence it WOULD be a good opportunity to acknowledge show the strength of character by sayhaving him be able to pull back from killing a true innocent in a future scene. And then please have some fucking dialogue on how NOONE else could have. Sam gets that all the time, now it`s Dean`s turn. Of course I would never want a boohoo speech directed at Dean again but I don`t actually mind if he keeps his vulnerabilities to himself. I for one am not looking forward to another "truth-telling" or "inhbitions removed" scene in the future where those gets turned against him after he confided them. If and when I see a character respecting Dean, then I can go with him letting himself be vulnerable with them. For example I would have bought it with Benny, I bought it to some degree with Cas but if he bares his belly for Sam again at this point, he is just asking for another nice little speech down the line where he gets to hear how much of a loser he is. Additionally, I would also not be averse to some acknowledgment of his physical prowess of a hunter because that is far from being glowingly endorsed either. I do but I assume we`d be talking about a situation here where Dean is not the one giving the speech but the one who holds the power, yes? The one who gets to make a choice because they have the power, the choice of either evil or good? My problem is more with saying the speech-giver holds any kind of importance or value because they literally have nothing else to bring to the table than giving some teary speech. But if we`re positing roughly a scenario like Dean had in Point of No Return with saying yes to Michael or not and then making his choice to kill Zachrariah instead. There is probably enough people that credit Sam with some/lots of that for his "I have faith in you" speech and all that. I`m not. For the same reason I can`t credit Dean for the Suck Song save. To me Zachariah was ALL Dean and the other ALL Sam. Unfortunately, the two were very unbalanced in terms of epicness and scope. So if there was a situation where Dean is seemingly out of control and gets talked down by the power of wuv? He still has to make the choice to come back to himself, he still has to find his own strength to make that happen. Which is why 100 % of the credit go to him. So, it would kind of fit my requirements, depending on the dialogue and how it was played.