Aeryn13

It was impulsive and unwise but it`s not something that bothers me unduly. And I think the Mark`s influence meant he could not stop himself from going there in the first place. In the end, I feel it`s nothing I think the character needs to be forgiven for because while strategically it might have been a mistake, ultimately I see it as "big whoop". Also when Dean was in caretaker mode, I do believe he was more involved than Sam and Cas have been so far. A lot more. First they leave Dean alone in that house with the thugs and here they gifted him with the opportunity to go in and work Metatron over. He is the one with the supernatural influence now, at least TRY to be a bit more vigilant about it. Maybe they or Sam found Dean`s way to be smothering and bully-ish but this la-di-da, followed by "OMG, Dean" followed by "can`t you just, I don`t, ignore your supernatural problem?" doesn`t seem very effective either. No wonder Dean thinks he is supposed to do everything on his own because well, that seems to be the expectation.

I don`t think that`s possible within the scenario. If you have a foe physically more powerful than you, they should be bound and powerless. And if you need info from them they are not willing to give, then force can be the only way to take.`Now the key is that the torturer should always keep the level head or not get emotionally involved so in this instance, it shouldn`t have been Dean doing the torturing. Because gosh golly, how much is he supposed to control himself? With his current supernatural condition, he shouldn`t be put in certain situations. That would be like throwing DemonBloodSam at the height of his addiction into a giant barrel filled with demon blood. Noone would have been surprised at negative results then either. But that is also why I think the migitating circumstances do matter a great deal. Dean is not completely Dean right now and can`t be judged as completely Dean. I don`t buy that the Mark brings out some hidden evolness inside him. Does he have dark instincts as just Dean? Sure, he has a warrior personality so that it is part and parcel of that. So the Mark has something juicy to grab on there. What I see as impressive strength with Dean is how much he manages to hold it together still. He lost it with a couple of guys who attacked him and he lost it with the creepy wanker who killed him but he didn`t lose it for a majority of the time. The Mark does not make him kill-crazy 24/7 and I think that is a testament to Dean. The torture itself was "TV-hot" to me. The lighting, the looks, the charisma of the actor, I find that appealing. It`s a badass moment in terms of "woohoo, look" for me compared to say when Dean killed Eve, the mother of all monsters. She held him down and bit into him and physically completely subdued him so it didn`t "look" badass but it was because he defeated her through ingenuity anyway. Not sure if I`m explaining it well but I can enjoy both displays of bad-assitude. A character can also be completely in charge while being imprisoned/tortured (Alistair emotionally always held the cards even while experiencing physical pain, soulless!Angel played his friends like a fiddle over on Angel when they captured him, Vampire Diaires Damon is probably tortured more than he does torturing and he looks more badass in the former scenarios) and Dean certainly is one to go for bravado and quips when he is at another`s mercy. But everyone now and then I like to see my characters coming onto the scene and wreck shit up. And if it`s someone like Metatron who annoys me so greately, I will cheer at the moment someone takes a blade to him and slices and dices. I think the torture king of TV used to be Jack Bauer over on 24. It became almost amusing to me but I never minded those scenes because ironically the concept of "must solve this in 24 hours or else" meant you needed someone like him who was ruthless to the ninth degree. Thinking about it, there is lots of torture and violence in shows I watch, moreso than in Supernatural in some, and some is hot, some is just there, some is boring but nothing really bothers me. Oh, except the Theon torture in Game of Thrones one Season back. That was like the world`s most repetitive and off-putting snuff porn ever. Compared to that everytime Dean ever tortured was "marry me" material.

Just because Marvatron looks tiny and unassuming doesn`t make me forget he is an angel. Which means technically stronger than a human. Though I guess since MOC!Dean can beat him without breaking his hand a la when Dean punched Cas that one time, he did a get physical upgrade. But it`s the same for me when Dean or any other hunter is fighting a female demon or supernatural creature. I don`t see "man beating up woman" there because I never forget the supernatural aspect of it. Last year Metratron was on top and whatever his plan was (making the world love him?) and because he had hubris coming out of his hiney, he is a prisoner now. He wasn`t going to tell them anything simply to help, he shows no contrition or wish to better himself at all. He turned everything back on Dean as if, oh, he didn`t give the order to kill Kevin or killed Dean. So I can not feel the least bit bad Dean resorted to more drastic measures with him. But yes, Dean lost control during the torture due to the MOC. Cain killed probably thousands of people when he lost control with the Mark and the Blade. It`s therefore not easy to control it and the level Dean has managed so far is pretty impressive. My point was more, they could have imprisoned Metatron in the bunker and just tortured him for fun every day since the Season 9 Finale. That is apparently something angels are big on, torturing their prisoners. It is also something demons obviously do. Dean however has not done this in ever.

I think the whole "cancer is impervious to vampire blood" - unless you are talking about becoming a vamp which heals EVERYTHING - comes a bit out of left field. Vamp blood has been used to cure everything so far. Damon shot Professor Wes up with quite a few nasty deseases and healed him up just fine, Elena`s Dad healed this Megan girl from her lethal condition just fine but as soon as a beloved recurring character gets a cancer-plot to pull out "well, then it`s time to pull "oh, we forgot to mention, everything but cancer" out of their asses, The contrivance fairy called and wants her money back. But okay, they are clearly going there and with Caroline`s little experiment here it`s clearly setting Liz up for "the choice". Which would actually be fine but they did that already with Caroline`s other parent so pulling the same thing with Liz feels both redundant and mean. I like that Liz is getting a bit of a story here and was especially pleased so see her friendship with Damon referenced so nicely in the episode. Yay. Helping her was actually the reason Damon spent too long in the spirit world in the Season 5 Finale and didn`t make it back in time. Well, he could have if everyone had acted efficently but it was part of the reason. If THAT had been the impetus for Caroline mellowing out on him a bit btw, it would have felt more organic to me than what seems now like "I hated you when I wanted Elena and Stefan back together but now I would like Stefan for myself, Elena is welcome to you and I withdraw my previous objections". Huh? Seriously, that is what it comes across as. What Caroline felt for Damon, loathing or forgiveness or whatever, should always have been separated from whatever couple situation there was. Then we have the witch twin palooza storyline. Luke is the stronger twin, called it. Liv acting so weak and cowardly recently marked her as the weaker one. Jo is a disaster at magic now and Kai a million times stronger than her? What a shocker. Luke was right on the money with that. Kai may be evil (delightfully psychotic even, I think it`s because he is always so cheerful about it) but he is actually not weak. Normally, the trope would be that the "good one" has the stronger character and will and the "evil one" is actually weaker. But Kai is genuinely the stronger person. He didn`t "fall" to evil, he just is. That`s at least novel. It`s of course stupid not to kill him. And if the show wants to keep him around for longer, they wil need to take away what makes him special and give him angst/mellow him out. He is a great character as he is but that brand of greatness can never work longterm. Laughed about the "Jeremy and the crossbow" line. Laughed more when Jeremy and his crossbow saved the day in the end. Ahahahaha. Nice to see Elena being a badass again. She always has it in her but lately you never see much of it. With three witches around, she should have a new daylight ring within the hour, though. Enzo being obsessed with Stefan just seems so odd and pointless. Why is he not trying to reconnect with Damon at all for example? He clearly forgave him everything. Which even makes sense, Damon is someone he loves and Stefan is not but this single white female thing comes out of left field.

I think that hinges heavily on your definition of "what makes a good person". Like I said over in the other thread, the torture is done for intel gathering and I also disagree that it is mostly not effective. The run of the mill demon usually spill after some time. And he lost with Gadreel and Metatron, both under the influence of the Mark of Cain and the backstory with them. How is that making him turn in his good guy credentials? For me, especially in a fictional scenario, killing and torturing per se don`t make me think someone is not a good person. The context in which it happens decides that. I also don`t have much patience for the "do not kill ever, must keep hands clean at all costs" kind of heroes who put their dainty morality over stopping an actual threat with necessary force. Give me a "darker" hero over pretty much a coward like that anyways. There are some goody-two-shows characters I like, Nick Burkhardt on Grimm is one, but while he will mostly try to make the arrest or something when it`s necessary he WILL go with the slice-and-dice and brute force. Scott over on Teen Wolf is actually a very good-hearted non-violent person but he is weakened as a character by the narrative always giving him an "out" with the bad guys and not having to kill them. That`s not how it works. The world of Supernatural is harsher and their moral judgyness and pearl-clutching notwithstanding, more often than not Sam and Cas seem to look to Dean to do the tough things like torture. And he plays that expected role more often than not. But to me that makes him that much stronger and badass. I think the writers, especially the nepotism duo, think that makes Dean a worse or bad person but they come across to me as those kind of people who morally pearl-clutch but in the face of real danger or tough decisions would cower and whimper behind someone like Dean. I`m not a heroic person and I wouldn`t throw myself into the fray, let alone risk my life for others (I wish I were but I doubt I would be so courageous) and I would be grateful to hide behind a Dean-like-figure if the situation arises. But I would admire them for it. That alone marks a "good person" for me already. If that person believes it about themselves or think they have to "try" to be it (when in fact, I think they are already) is beside the point. Someone who fights for others, tries to protect them and help them and especially at the cost of their own life is a good person and actually a hero. Full stop. Because it puts them above the roughly 90 % of the "average person" who wouldn`t go out of their way to help people, not counting small-scale ways here like common courtesy, some manners or being nice for five minutes.

I pretty much disagree with every word. Dean is having a dark arc right now but he has done nothing whatsoever that makes me think he isn`t a good person. The torture is a show trope now and while Dean often does it, the other characters, namely Sam and Cas, either partake, ask him to do it or stand by and watch in silence in the majority of the cases. Sometimes, they do it, too. Maybe the writers think that keeps their little hands pure and clean but it does anything but. I admire Dean more for getting his hands dirty and not ask the others or stand in the corner or whatnot. Of course, I also don`t think they are always wrong to torture. If they have a captured enemy and need quick intel, what else are they supposed to do? Trickery and subterfuge is a good way but you can`t pull it off all the time and the show has long since entered the big leagues in terms of threats. When they were hunting ghosts and wendigos, there was no need for that but now we`re constantly dealing with the King of Hell that and droves of angels this. Even lots more inventive writers would have a hard time keeping the guys hands clean. And from what we learned so far, in hell you are tortured to turn you into a demon and basically for fun, angels apparently torture out of "righteousness" aka why did Gadreel and that Abner guy after being thrown in captivity had to be tortured for day in and day out? What purpose did it serve? It didn`t solve any threats or anything. When Dean tortures or the Winchesters in general do, it is because they want intel. Sometimes, payback creeps in or a certain rage Mark might take over but they have never taken a demon or angel captive and just tortured them for kicks for a long time. With the bunker now, they could.

As long as she doesn`t woge in front of him, he wouldn`t see it. That is the only time he knows who is Wesen and they know he is a Grimm. It`s actual a level playing field that way. I wonder if Nick`s Grimm blood could take away Juliette`s hexenbiest-ness. Or would it not work in terms of how she got her power. When she tells, that should at least be explored. Loved the group coming together to help Monroe. Though, I too, can never not see a power walk down a hallway without picturing Puppet!Angel in front. The image is just too burned in my mind. The thing I`m most happy about is Wu being in the group. Hallelujah. It was the single most shitty thing they ever did, letting him believe he was going crazy.

They never once clarified if The End was a genuine future or just a construct of Zach`s so it can not be used as conclusive proof for Dean`s relevancy either. When I say they should have made it clear, I mean so that noone, absolutely noone could question it. No viewer can have any doubts as to Sam being the conquering hero in that episode. Dean`s "role" can be build up or completely denigrated because the narrative isn`t obvious if he had any or not. I`ve seen meta that said it was him being a good sidekick that he went there but not really necessary. And that can`t really be argued against factually. It can be interpreted more favourably but nothing more. Sam`s role can not be interpreted. And they couldn`t do that without nullifying Dean`s role completely and kicking the entire last two years out of the mytharc? Apparently, yes. Even IF I believed, Dean was the trigger himself, it is still quite demeaning. Because what does that make him? The pom-pom-wearer, the one who cheers the real hero on enough to take the TRUE physical action that matters. Sam did everything that was relevant here himself. He took control of Lucifer for seemingly ever, he opened the portal, he threw himself in AND took Michael along. Dean knelt on the ground and looked at it. The imagery couldn`t have been more humiliating and lopsided if they tried. If you give that "role" to a woman nowadays, there is hell to pay. Samwise took physical, necessary action, That is SOOO much more than what they gave Dean. That is what made Samwise the hero to me. The emotional and cooking support he provided Frodo over the course of the journey was nice and all but if that was all he had done. And if his final role had been "I believe in you, Frodo, you can do it" and then Frodo did it? Samwise would have still remained firmly a sidekick. The show is at such a point that Dean will never get his equal of Suck Song. And until he does (which again, never), I will never not hate. The Leviathans were a bust but once Dean took on the MOC, they could have made Abaddon more epic, present her as more of a threat to the world, draw that fight out longer and give Dean an epic Season Finale kill where he saved the world on his lonesome with no help whatsoever while Sam looks on in awe. Then it would have redeemed it a little bit. Not fully because 5 Season arc vs. 1 Season arc can not equally compare but at least it would have been something.

That`s the thing, I just hate and will forever hate that episode for being so wishy-washy with Dean`s role, not only in the episode itself but all the ones say from the Season 3 Finale on (I could rewrite you the entire Seasons 4 and 5 apparently without Dean because he was not plot-needed after all), that I actually have to interpret it in a way to still keep him relevant. But the reading that he totally isn`t is just as valid to take away from what they showed onscreen. I don`t want to have to work hard and try to convince myself despite the show that my favourite character wasn`t completely superfluous. Lots of people read it as "the car did it/the toy soldier did it" and lots of people thought "Sam overcame Lucifer by his own will-power, full stop". Meaning Dean`s "contribution" was some nebulous something. This episode was the most important one in the show to date, it capped off a five-year myth-arc, something no episode before has and no other will if I`m realistic and it couldn`t make it clear, actually clear that Dean had a valid role? They could do that for Sam alright. Even for the freaking car, they could do it. But not for Dean. Heck, a guest star from Season 4 could take Dean`s "role" in the entire arc apparently, making it clear how little to nothing it meant. Because even in my scenario, you couldn`t cut Adam from the episode. Dean, yes, but not Adam. Hence, he was more important to the episode in my eyes. That is why it is a failure to me. Samwise in LOTR was a hero because we literally saw him carrying the ring and Frodo with the ring for a time. We literally saw onscreen Frodo give in and fail in the end and Sam to prevail. His role was made abudantly clear in a way Dean`s was not. That is the big difference between them.

It`s the current writers of lol!canon and "oops". They might remember Lucifer was once on the show (or they might not) but overall they can barel remember canon from last week, let alone last year and the years before are hopeless. They say "the source" and I would bet anything that they think no further but Cain. To them, he will be the source of the Mark, not Lucifer. It will not be complex or surprising or anything but when "hints" are dropped in the dialogue, IMO no need to decipher them. It will be the most obvious and simplistic answer that anyone already guessed. So, it was always clear that Cain had the Mark first, therefore he knows the most about it and I always knew the episode Tim O. was back for would be the end of it. Maybe they think "oh, Metatron being cagey, noone will ever guess that the source is Cain" and rub their hands in anticipation. TV writers are smarter than that? In Season 4 of Vampire Diaries when it became clear that one vamp would become human, the writers had Damon in mind because they thought noone but noone would see it coming. Then, at the start of the storyline the entire internet immediately saw it coming so they changed it to another character later on. And the showrunner flat-out admitted that in an interview. Which is actually a bit charming if you at least have the guts to say it. The SPN crew don`t really admit stuff like that but that doesn`t mean they are too smart or creative for it IMO.

Aside from a general lack of talent in this writing cadre, it is actually not uncommon IMO for writers to want push something and be annoyed when not only doesn`t it happen but another thing does. Which makes this: a pretty common effect as well. For example, I do not think the Smallville writers set out from the very first episode with the goal of getting Chloe hated. They just figured they would write Lana as the perfect princess of perfection and that would be a surefire way to make her a fan favourite. They were much more laid back writing a character considered more as an expositionary sidekick. And surprise of all surprises (well, a surprise to noone BUT the writers), Lana met criticism and Chloe was more embraced. Then starts what I call the "can you hear me now"-period, like from those phone commercials? Only in TV writing it becomes "do you like them now?" "how about now?" "and now?" Recently the same thing is going on over on Arrow with Laurel where the producers pretty much spell out in interviews that this time it`s the arc that will make fans love her. For sure. And the "what the fuck is wrong with you, we give you neon signs to where we want you and how much we want you to love/like each character and fangirl them proportionally, how much clearer can we make it to where your favouritism SHOULD fall?" to fans is always implied. And fans latching onto a particular character that is not hyped as the "most likely to become the popular one" is met with constant befuddlement and annoyance. It`s been years and dozens of shows later where this has happened and the writers still don`t understand or have caught on to the fact that in most cases (not all but the vast majority), it is exactly their hyping and huffing that ensures that whoever they want to be the break-out character from a show doesn`t become it and whoever they did not give much thought in the first place does. Same thing happened on Supernatural. Dean was supposed to be the fun sidekick and I think they did expect viewers to like him as such. They wouldn`t have or would discourage it anyway but then the tragedy happened and lots of fans got more investment in the character, they saw him as more, they expected and wanted more from him and so on and so forth. Ironically, if the writers had gone into this show with the mission of "Dean is our IT-character and we will make sure he is embraced as the most awesome one ever, if it`s the last thing we do on this Earth", he probably wouldn`t have been. Jensen is great but it is almost impossible to overcome that writing. Nevertheless, it does make for a better balance if each character has at least one champion in a writer`s room. At least one person who is interested in writing for them in the first place, who would take more care with their characterization and maybe even fight for them on occassion. The opposite shows.

It wasn`t his destiny, he wasn`t supernaturally chosen for it, the Leviathan`s plan didn`t stand or fall with him and he wasn`t literally the only person in the world who could do it. Gathering intel - and really, in one of the most ludicrous scenes in the entire show, Ghost!Bobby came back and fed them EVERYTHING in a powerpoint exposition scene about the Leviathan plan because apparently all the episodes before where they supposedly gathered information on them amounted to squat, they didn`t put anything together - is something nearly everyone can do. Gathering supplies - just as well. Death didn`t come to Sam and exposit that Dean and only Dean was destined to defeat the Leviathans. Dick Roman himself wasn`t focused on Dean for the entire Season for that reason. Sure, they considered the Winchesters some kind of nuissance but that`s a wholly different ballgame. It`s the same as driving the Impala to the Lucifer/Michael fight in Suck Song. Dean may have done it but in the end, lots of people can drive a car. For me it doesn`t matter if person x was maybe more motivated to do so in a given scene than Joe Schmoe from the street and that`s why they did what they did, for me it matters if person x is replaceable or not. Apparently, Dean was so easily replaceable as Michael`s vessel that this role loses all meaning. On the other hand Lucifer did not and would not go confront Michael until he had HIS true vessel. He would accept noone else. Whereas it would have been technically possible that Bobby or Cas drove the car there or even a random person who found the keys in the ignition. Why that random person would then go to Stull cemetary? Plot convenience and voila. Strangers things have happened. Take Dean completely out of the episode and have a stranger drive the car there because they feel like it, have Sam see his toy soldier and defeat Lucifer and you have pretty much the same Season 5 Finale you have now. Nothing about the plot changes. Equally, another hunter could have taken on the Leviathan quest and killed Dick Roman. It didn`t happen that way because they needed to fill the Winchester screentime during Season 7 with something but it could have. Dean was far from irreplaceable. Take the Winchesters completely out of Season 7 and fill their role in with two random hunters, have one of them get the happenstance kill in the end. Nothing about the plot changes. That they don`t do that for behind the scenes reasons doesn`t change my view on it. The Leviathans IMO were their own arc which happened to be the main one. They had squat to do with the Winchesters. Bobby had probably the biggest arc in Season 7 with the ghost-journey, then Sam with the hellucinations, Cas is iffy because he just had crazyness. Dean had some emo depression. Blergh.

I think she loved him in that "he makes a good pair of binoculars to look through at SAM" way aka the Big Brother Dean, the attachment to her true favourite, the guy on whom the SAMulet hangs. So, like she might have "loved" that prop, she "loved" Dean. The starry-eyed "sweet, brave, selfless Sam, there is nothing he can`t do" declaration was a dead giveaway IMO. Her interacting with actual!Dean more didn`t change that. But it`s more than that, the first fangirl introduced was a raving Sam-stan - and as a Wincest-shipper, she should technically like both sides of the pairing, too, but that`s actually accurate to how shipping often works, lots of shippers only really like one person of the ship, not just Supernatural but many fandoms. But she salivated over Sam and gave Dean the "whatever" reaction. Her bias was abundantly clear. Incidentally, she was also the fangirl who the Creator/God in this fictional universe got in bed with and fell for. Gee, Kripke, the meta, it burns. Then they make an episode about fans putting on a production and the most prominently featured fangirl character writing the play and narrating it is... also a Samgirl. Their meta-episode for "al" the fans felt really inclusive there right from the start. If you love Dean in that binocular way, you are good but the idea of someone seeing more in and for the character? Even, gasp, focusing on him? That is so ridiculously alien to the writers, it probably never entered their minds. I think they are baffled by the existence of Dean-fans in the first place. Having none àmong the writers, maybe they think it`s an urban myth or something.

It`s the first time ever I`m experiencing this with my character so overall, I don`t mind. If I were on the tenth or so loop where he had the A-plot, I might feel differently but everything is still novel (though in constant terror of being snatched away again). Of course I`m also annoyed because something I was ready for in year 2 or 3 at the latest, I had to wait for 10!!! years to happen. Well, okay 9 and a half. Not that much better. And the big halfway point in Season 5 was like an acid bath. The entire second half of Season 8 was almost as bad, only much longer. I did because well, he didn`t. One-off episodes do not a mytharc make. Becoming Death for one episode? If we were talking Death for half a Season and have a big story spun from that, then we`d be in buisness. As for the Leviathan arc, not seeing that as a Dean one even in the slightest. Granted, it is not for Sam either, he had the hellucinations back then but it meets exactly zero of my criteria on what it means for an arc to be centered on a character. The happenstance win in the Season 7 Finale was kinda nice but does not even begin to compare to the Season 5 Finale for me. The Gadreel plot counts for Sam because if it were reversed, it would still very much count for Dean also. If he had been the one possessed. I don`t mind if the character isn`t there "there", so to speak, but it would still be something supernatural happening to him. So, for me, it is a Sam-plot. I think there can be good points made for Season 1. It was more episodic in nature, sure, and as always, a new show needs a bit to find its footing but like many times on other shows as well, the characters get reverse-engineered. Characters should be sympathetic in some way when a show starts, so as to draw an audience in but it is okay if they have annoying sides. That`s what a years long journey during the show is for, to fix that and let them grow. Yet, LOTS of shows work the opposite way and end with the characters supposedly "matured" when in hindsight they were superior in just about every way in the early years. Funnier, smarter, more accomplished, nicer, healthier, even way more mature. Whereas at the end of their journey they seem to have embraced the asshole side of the Force. I thought Dean was in a better place emotionally then he is now. And I also think he was mature. Did he have a fun, childish or maybe more accurately child-like side that could come off as immature to bystanders? Hell yes. But deep down where it counted, he had matured. He is...kinda still at that point now, only without that child-like side coming out to play any more.

The way I see it as that he was finally brought up to their level. And another fuck you to the show because why did all those guest star mofos real arcs before the supposed second lead got one? Priorities, writers, look it up. In a genre show this is just what I expect to happen and want to see. Those characters belong there, they literally couldn`t be in any garden variety real life drama. The human characters on genre shows are usually the most expendable and boring in my eyes because they can never really participate in the genre plots. Not as leads. They can react to it and flutter along on the sidelines or emo about it but that is not the participation I`m talking about. That`s okay for guest star roles but it doesn`t work for leads IMO. I didn`t hate Xander on Buffy but he would have easily been the one I cut if I had to make a character exit. A slayer, vampires, a witch, a werewolf, even a Watcher of a former demon all offer more rich potential for storylines to build around them. Han Solo, as cool as he was, worked because it was only three movies and not a years-long TV show. From the beginning I thought Dean had to offer more than that. He wasn`t just "Joe Schmoe" from the streets. He had an epic backstory with the Mom being killed by a demon, the growing up in such a strange lifestyle and pretty much as a warrior. Then hallelujah and all hail the writer`s strike that allowed him to go to hell because finally a real genre story about him personally. They even capitalized on that at first with a supposed mission from God and everything. Then the vessel stuff for Michael. That is all larger than life destiny. Of course then they pissed that all away with the Season 5 Finale, my most hated episode ever. Afterwards, he was apparently a nobody again because no overarching genre plot in sight. That went on for two more years before Hallelujah, he went to Purgatory. Amazingly, they managed to totally scramble that too and after that he went on to be the biggest nobody ever in the second half of Season 8. Even the usually boring human characters in other genre shows would have laughed their asses off at that kind of "role". Next we come to our third and final Hallelujah when he received the Mark of Cain. That storyline actually moved somewhere. I didn`t necessarily need Dean to become a demon but didn`t terribly mind it either. After all, it wasn`t the endgame for him and offered rich story potential to be explored. But of course, we wouldn`t have a dramatic and exciting mytharc episode for 200. No, we needed some cutesy meta crap where once more the only fan-representation ever to see in the show is Sam-fans. At least the Mark is still ongoing but even though it`s kinda evil, it is literally all that is between the character and being sent back to the kitchen as far as I`m concerned. So if I could, I would want it to stay on till the end of time.

The narrative IMO. By removing pretty much all the context and throwing words around like "massacre" which in itself is not a word you would use to describe a situation where one guy was attacked by many and defended himself, even if so with hypervigilance and too much force. A "massacre" invokes the image of Dean coming in armed to the teeth and gleefully hacking down children who were cowering on the floor at the time, or something. So they framed it as pretty much an evil act. And by Sam and Cas displaying moral judgment with again, no context or nothing or a reminder of THEIR less than unsavory pasts, they thus become mouthpieces for the blame game. Dean`s MOC situation is different in ways than say the blood addiction but it is not morally "worse". It doesn`t mean he is born evil and that only it comes out or something. Yet IMO that is kinda the perspective the writers, these two at least, are coming from. Maybe they don`t view him as wholly evil but apparently not as "good" as Sam or Cas.

I think the show could find a way to bring it up regardless. Because right now the vibe is kinda "Dean is on a dark path and Sam and Cas are purer than the driven snow". It`s like they never, ever, ever had their own dark paths as far as the writers are concerned. Yet I distinctly remember that not only did they but when they did, the writing took great pains to give at least half if not all the responsibility for it to Dean as well. For reasons and stuff. Now the roles are reversed and Snow and Snowier don`t even get a whiff of the blame heaped on Dean back then with both hands. They also don`t get even remotely blamed for not being supportive enough or in the right way or the myriad of ways Dean apparently didn`t do a good enough job in their arcs. And yet, I think they have been atrocious at this caretaking business for the most part. If everybody had their old roles here - Dean the mere support and either Cas or Sam with the big story - I think the writing would be totally different. We would get neverending reminders on why Dean somehow facilitated the bad things Cas and/or Sam did AND how he fell down in the support role. It`s IMO Dean and Dean only the writers wouldn`t even think to pull the kid gloves out for. In a way it makes him the stronger character for me but on the other hand I also feel very ranty about it.

I think they should. Not necessarily the demon thing but something that make him "not-human". This is simply not the show where "just human" flies in the narrative IMO. Not if you want anything more than sidekick roles or emo stuff. So I was always excited about powers and specialness. Heck, we should have seen a power-palooza from Dean once he became in effect a Knight of Hell. They could pull out the flashy blue eye effect for every Tom, Dick and Harry of scene when Sam was Gadreel but Demon!Dean got NADA in terms of power effects? Once again, you suck, show.

But Sam has and would pull similar moves when it was his turn as the special one. It`s actual a common trope that the hero won`t bring the sidekick to the really important fights because the sidekick has no place there and no special abilities. It`s just reversed now in terms of characters. I agree that it has little to do with authority figures but IMO is also not really that much about caretaking. Sure, it involves the "protect this person" shtick but more than that I see it as a placement of the characters in the narrative. And it even has cold tactic value, If someone with powers - Dean with the Mark and the Blade had some of those, at least he could fight off Abaddon`s hold and TK the blade to himself - fights against someone else with powers, why bring in the non-powered person? What good would have come from Abaddon telekinetically pinning Sam to the wall? Dean`s Mark powers wouldn`t have allowed him to fight THAT off and instead would have given him a big disadvantage in terms of leverage for Abaddon. I said it before that this show IMO never celebrated "just humanity" despite paying very much lip service to the concept. In reality it was always more "power and destiny", even if they didn`t admit it. For years I have been dismayed that Dean was the one left in the dust by it. Now he is the one at the forefront but it is the same principle.

In First Born, you can still see it on Cain`s arm after he transfered it to Dean. Which would be a pretty big production blip if they just missed it. However, how Sam would know that, I have no idea. Only the viewers of the episode could see that, not characters. Dean and Crowley were gone and presumably all the attacking demons were killed. Maybe Sam watches the show. Which is more than I can say for the writers apparently who IMO just didn`t even think how their exposition makes no sense.

I think because it never was remotely what Crowley was doing. Sure, in his head maybe but it had no bearing what happened in reality. He didn`t "train" Dean for a single second during the demon-dom, Dean was never his dog and Crowley didn`t have any control. Demon!Dean wanted one thing and one thing only: hedonism. And Crowley promised that for a time. Demon!Dean thought that offer was genuine so he took him up on it. Once it became clear that Crowley was on a different train, Demon!Dean went "adios". He only even took the Lester-job out of what appeared to be bemused curiosity. Just because someone may think they control Dean or have him under their thumb doesn`t make their deluded dreams factual. I think that is giving Dean`s character far too less credit and making him look ultra-pathetic. IMO Crowley ever had a Dean-shaped attack dog. If he thought he did? His problem. He was the pathetic one. If I would make animal-analogies to the pairing (and I kinda don`t like that for the most part because it can never not sound offensive when applied to people), Dean was a cat. You know, the being that has an "owner" insofar that there is a poor schmuck believing themselves to be a cat owner. Whereas the cat itself can be agreeable within certain parameters but mostly just seems to think "ah, there you are, servant who opens my food cans". In terms of this episode, I think Crowley was actually being played. Hey, everything gets dumbed down for plot reasons and the nepotism duo are the worst writers on the show. They can barely string up any cohesive plot or dialogue so no wonder Crowley suffered for it here. As did Claire. How pointless a story and how naive for basically a street kid. It`s a freaking wonder Randy didn`t pimp her out ages ago as little street smarts as she showed. Dark!Dean was hot like burning. His scene with Metatron was pretty good. The character is annoying but Curtis Armstrong gives it his all. Cas is so inconsistent in terms of when Dean seems to be his friend or not these days. This episode, I`d say we were in a clear "not"-phase. While I appreciated the "the strength in you"-sentiment and would like to happen it much more often with Dean because usually he only gets the opposite and Sam gets the "you are so awesomely awesome" speeches, I find it kinda hilarious that noone acknowledges the gravity of the situation. I mean, not really. It basically boils down to "you just have to control it". O-kay. There is exactly one precedent for that and he managed control after MILLENIA. So Dean is supposed to pull off a feat accomplished after several thousand years of getting it out of your system while simultaneously gaining strength/experience/wisdom after a few weeks/months? Like, not even in a hundred years or a dozen years or so but right now? I get why they want that from him but geeze Luise.

Thompson is way too enamored with Charlie and should therefore not write any more episodes with her. I just knew she would come back from Oz with the super-fighting-moves. Just like she was a super-hacker so awesome Leviathans marvelled at her. Then she was the Queen of all geeks and the dream of all the guys and girls in the role playing world. And she is a crack shot just from playing video games. And so on and so forth. All that clip needed was her doing backflips onto the scene while doing the Xena war-cry and kicking the asses of 50 men at once. It`s ludicrous. And I`m sure Thompson just thinks it makes her that MORE awesome. Because everyone just loves people who can apparently do everything. Uh-uh. For that stupid clip alone, and I`m sure she is possessed or has aquired an evil shadow self or whatnot - look for the low-flying anvils with the Mark of Cain then - I want to see Dean kick her ass thoughroughly. Simply like I wanted Bela to not win all the time. But because she is Charlie and Thompson writes his own wish fulfillments into the show via this character, she will of course win any fight. With wrestle-mania bullshit. Ironically, Thompson can only do this because she is an occasional guest star. If he tried to center a show around her and still keep up his writing for the character exactly as is, viewers would scream for blood. For sure, I don`t like leads of shows losing all the time (unless possibly I hate them) but one winning at everything ever? Gets annoying within two episodes, tops.

I don`t see it like that at all. Dean right now is being influenced by something supernatural. That has been Sam`s storyline for years, it was the visions and largely the special Child-ness, then the demon blood powers, then the soullessness, then the Hellucinations, then the Trialuberculosis. And Dean was in the position Sam is in now each and every time, for the majority of the whole freaking show. This is the first time their roles are reversed and Sam is in the Dean-position. Just don`t see where John parallels comes into the equation or why it is only a nightmare for Sam apparently when Dean had that thing going for years and what was it then? A walk through the park? John was never incluenced by something supernatural, other than the one time demon possession but his life-long choices were made by his human self. Dean has been for a few months now (the timeline is hard to guess but it hasn`t been years) carrying the Mark and that affecting his behaviour. But for all intents and purposes, he is holding it together pretty well. The demonization happened after he died so it`s not something he could help. But with the MOC in general, he is not going kill-crazy all the time, he is not incapable of going out in the world without slaughtering every single person he meets or at least even trying to do so. By which I mean, he is not that THAT hard to deal with currently. Not leaving him alone with a bunch of thugs while waiting in the car wouldn`t have been an unreasonable order of business even. Sure, Dean took on the MOC initially willingly and recklessly, without thinking about the consequences. Sam equally chose to guzzle down demon blood and pretty much hoped for the best. If anything, I see THOSE two situations as comparable. You also got the addiction metaphors laid on pretty thickly with the blood itself. Sam is now on the other side of the fence but that doesn`t make him Dean to John. It makes him Dean to Sam. Sam had his beige-side arc already during Seasons 2-5, maybe a bit with the soullessness during Season 6 so I think the writers got it out of their system. Next was Cas with the Godstiel bit. Now it`s simply Dean`s turn in the narrative. He is catching up to their arcs as I see it, not vice versa.

I wouldn`t mind if it came across that that was their problem but the acting is IMO nothing but moral pearl clutching and judgment. Of course the writing acknowledges NOTHING about the context of hey, those people attacked Dean and were not as pure as the driven snow. No, everyone acts instead as if Dean went into an orphanage and slaughtered innocent five-year-olds crying for their lifes. Over on that new show, the 100, they had two lead characters stumbling upon a third in the process of massacring unarmed people, women, even children. Well, he was finishing up as they stumbled onto the tableau but they saw enough and THERE their completely shocked, uncomprehending faces made sense. They literally couldn`t believe their eyes. As a viewer, I gaped, too, so this made sense to me. But it is like this same reaction got transported onto SPN and as a viewer, I have more of a "are you fucking kidding me?" reaction. And then disbelief turns to anger and annoyance that apparently, no, they are not and are in fact serious about it. And I agree that the writers, especially this particular duo of nepotism, pretty much has a certain outlook on Dean. If it were Sam or Cas, the educated/"enlightened" ones, it would be different but Dean has apparently been born halfway evil and now the Mark brings out the genetic killer in him. The only ones showing not one shred of enlightenment are these writers. But from the acting I get nothing BUT judgment. Not horror for Dean, not horror at what they might have to do but judgment directed at him. It was the same at the end of the Fall Finale with Cas` look and Sam`s "justify yourself to me right this instant" spiel. The dialogue was bad already but acting-wise both have failed for me then and both are failing for me now. It destroys an already badly-written scene. If I want something from a scene that is badly written, it is for the actor to somehow either soften the blow for me or make it work regardless. What I do not want is to play it straight and therefore make it worse. Regarding the summary for the de-aging ep, I now wonder if the MOC is gone. Because getting Dean out of the bunker by finding them a case where you might have to potentially kill and ramp up the bloodlust again sounds like a horrible idea. Even if they threw a band-aid on the Mark, why the hell tempt fate like that?

And that was generally met with "how could you..." *wounded look of baby animal* sentiments. And both Cas and Sam were at those points still quite convinced they were on a right enough track that they just needed support. They actually kind of felt entitled to it still. Dean gives himself no quarter here. He doesn`t stumble onto the scene of Cas and Sam discussing him and condemning him with an "how could you" look of accusation. Instead he declares himself the monster they just did moments ago as well. I get that neither Sam nor Cas have the instinct to be the caretaker here but giving off a general air of "well, we kinda would rather YOU be dead instead of the rape crew and preserve our moral sense of integrity"? If you love a person, that reaction wouldn`t even figure in IMO. I credit a lot of that due to the twisted views and general bad writing of the nepotism duo but it`s still not so one-time and out-of-character that I can handwave it completely. The duo might be gleefully think they are bashing Dean to the high heavens but he is not coming out looking the worst in this clip.