Katsullivan

They don't need a consultant for deliberate mistakes. In some episodes, when Iris talks about Joe to Barry, she says "her Dad" and he says "Joe" and then in some episodes, Iris says "our Dad" or "Dad", and Barry not remarking on it. That's still a writing/directing choice. If Patty was being used to prop Westallen, she'd have definitely spent time with them and been threatened, just like Linda and Eddie. It's worth noting that we never see Eddie spend time with Westallen before he's threatened. He just is. The very first real conversation Eddie and Barry have with each other is Eddie telling Barry that he was threatened by him. In fact, Eddie's choice of words "I have to admit, I was threatened by you before" --- implies that it took him spending time with Barry to stop being threatened by Barry. Which is actually how these things work. Patty should theoretically have been more threatened by Iris as an attractive woman close to Barry in an unspecified way before she got to know her better. People didn't forget as much as it's been retconned from the show.

I think @adora721's point is that the show deliberately muddied the waters of that relationship by doing things like this: Yes I agree that people who were predisposed to hate Westallen were always going to jump on anything to justify that hate. AJK gave them something to justify that hate. As said: The "incest" thing was part of that situation. Now if you're arguing that it was accidental, then it still stands that after the initial backlash, the writers/producers didn't try to clarify it. Joe/Barry's dynamic at the start of Season 1 isn't the cuddly Mammy-esque relationship it became in season 2 and following. There's antagonism and resentment on Barry's part with him believing that Joe helped lock up his real father, Henry. Barry grows into appreciating Joe and realizing that he always had a father figure in him but he doesn't grow up thinking that Joe was his dad or a replacement for his dad. The show completely acts now that Barry grew up as Joe's adopted son. It has Joe literally call Barry his adopted son, and that irritating, disgusting moment where Joe gives Barry's his father's watch are part of the things that seal the Barry = Joe's son in the minds of the audience. Of course, this is part of Mammifying Joe, too. Compare the dynamic between the three of them from 1:39 to anything that's come after this. From 1:39 Joe and Barry are downright hostile to each other in this, with Iris acting as the go-betweener. You can imagine a situation where these 3 lived with Iris being the one holding the home, to speak, not the One Big Happy Westallen Family feels we get now, with Barry as the Magical Adopted White Boy that healed the broken West home. I can't really add anything to this besides nodding my head and being glad that someone else saw this and is calling them out. I think we Iris/Westallen fans do ourselves a disservice by not wanting to acknowledge that these things happen and can potentially still happen. Nope. I also have seen the "like siblings" used to a lot of popular interracial ships/potential ships. Think Abbie/Ichabod, Bonnie/Damon, Wes/Laurel. White people can literally ship siblings (The Borgias, Game of Thrones ships) because the chemistry is just so incredible but somehow they see a Black person and White person and think "oooh they are related! This is gross and against my religion." Yes, a fan literally accuses Candice of this during a Con. Candice is the one who ends up answering even though she's siting on a panel with the actual showrunners and writers. Soon I'll write a lengthy post about how part of that "performative progressiveness" @doram mentioned is the way the cast/crew leave it entirely up to Candice to deal with racist trolls even when their mentions are included in their tweets/attacks. The fact that they see "Dealing with racists" as entirely Candice's problem, and not a problem that they should take responsibility for speaks volumes of just how genuine their interest in her character and the Westallen ship are.

This take, which I know the film endorses but I don't believe bears under scrutiny, presumes that Wakanda did not have the option to impose itself on the world and establish an Empire ... in other words, act as every other "Super-power" in the world. It's almost an extension of the Magical Negro trope where the Black Character is immensely powerful but all that power is in the service of the "true" White Heroes. Here, it's just assumed that Wakanda, the Magical Negro Country, must use its powers to correct the atrocities committed by White Countries. In fact it's assumed so completely, that we take it as fact that: a, Wakanda is ignoble, as you said, for not doing this and b, the possibility of abusing its power is so beyond comprehension, that Wakanda isn't even credit for not doing as every super-power in the world has done. Instead of praising Wakanda for not waging war and enslaving humanity as all the European explorers and conquistadors did when they had a fraction of Wakanda's advantages, Wakanda is being blamed because it didn't automatically assume the role of Super-Nanny to the World. I agree with this. In real life, Wakanda's decision to open its borders would end badly for it. In the trailer for the next movie

Her guard was already down since she was alone with him without protection. The more I think about it, the more it seems that the problem with that scene extends beyond Shuri, even though Shuri started out as my focus. Ross the CIA agent is left chilling in the heart of Wakanda's precious Vibranium mountain, in close proximity to High Royal Highness, Princess Shuri, who is not only next in line to the King, but also the Head of Technology. There are no guards in sight, no supervisors, nothing. He's left to wake up unconstrained, wander around her lab, and quiz her on sensitive Wakanda information that has been hidden from outsiders for centuries. I can find that scene believable if Wakanda has a policy of either mind-wiping outsiders who discovered their secrets or... taking some more permanent measures. Shuri was aware of this and that was why she was so blithe around him. She knew he would never be able to repeat anything he heard or saw...

By presenting the opinion that it was Wakanda's duty to prevent slavery as an indisputable fact, as if slavery was a Bad Thing That Happened like an earthquake or a volcano eruption and not something that Europe Did To Africa, the movie was stating that Wakanda was responsible for slavery, and every bad thing that happened to black people.

Racism, obviously. If Hermione had been a Black girl, do you think the H/Hr vs R/Hr wars would have happened? If Harry had been South Indian as some tumblrs love drawing him, would H/Hr vs H/G have been a thing? But we already know the answer to that don't we? https://fanlore.org/wiki/Blaise_Zabini#Canon_Blaise_backlash

For the record, Killmonger is only a psychopath because he lost the crown and he never started his war. Otherwise, he'd join the ranks of all the other European Conquerors and Conquistadors of Africa and Latin America. We really don't know what W'Kabi's fate is presently since the last we see of him is kneeling before Okoye. At the very least, I imagine he will charged with: Treason since as okoye pointed out - the uncompleted Challenge meant that T'Challa was still King, and he was disobeying his King and waging war; Sacrilege, by ignoring/interfering with the sacred tradition of the Challenge Contest. I guess the Jobari also did the same thing since they prevented T'Challa from his certain death by drowning/bleeding but they didn't know about the Challenge since it was done so suddenly and without the usual protocol. Was Wakanda wrong? I know the movie wants us to think this but I don’t agree. It would be different if Wakanda had ever presented itself as some moral standard to other countries OR if its wealth was the direct result of exploiting other countries… But neither of this applies to Wakanda. The only people responsible for addressing the suffering of people of colour were the people who had inflicted said suffering to them in the first place. Which is part of why that Shuri/Ross scene irritates me so much. The fact that the movie somehow managed to address slavery and exploitation as something That Just Happened, and was Wakanda’s fault for Letting It Happen – is one of the biggest problems I have with this movie.

But it's obvious why the writers didn't think about putting them in a relationship, isn't it? Seriously, Cisco/Caitlin would have been a nice beta couple to Westallen. I like Cynthia but she contributes to the problem of the show already having too many metas. Of course, the best thing would be for Caitlin to just leave the show - either go to Legends, or become full villain and be written out after a season.

Even though I'm usually a pessimist, I think it was an interesting hint of which relationships the show prioritized by making Oliver the Fuhrer in love with a Nazi Supergirl. As you said, they could have been some other kind of villain, giving Felicity the opportunity to be an Evil Queen to Oliver's King. Or we could go full Mirror-Trek-verse and have Oliver have a harem. Meanwhile, there's no Earth-X version of Barry or Iris in the cross-over so speculation of their relationship is open, making it possible that the "across every universe, we'll always be Barry and Iris" mandate is still true.

Then they really shouldn't have had Shuri cry "colonizer" at him. It made the scene tone-deaf. In one moment, she's "woke" enough to reference colonization and its tactics of theft and appropriation... in the next moment, she's behaving like a textbook victim of colonization by happily singing out her country's secrets to said colonizer. I disagree. I feel the problem was the movie being too short, and not because the W'Kabi wore too many hats. I bought W'Kabi, Okoye and T'Challa as a dynamic of peers similar to Ron/Hermione/Harry. I found their friendship believable and I also found W'Kabi's bitterness and disillusionment believable as well. I think the problem might also be too many people sympathizing with N'Jobu's intentions without examining just how much damage he did to Wakanda by his betrayal. This damage is depicted through the loss of W'Kabi's parents but the movie didn't spend as much time going into this. This is where I feel the time crunch. W'Kabi's anti-isolationist stance isn't that much different from his anti-refugee stance. It's rooted in imperialism. That's another failure of the movie, I feel, that might be due to time or maybe just due to what Coogler wanted to say. But the movie didn't talk enough about how Wakanda could easily have become a tyrannical Empire, like Killmonger imagined. The choices Wakanda had were presented as: isolate or defend Africa, and not isolate, defend Africa or conquer the rest of Africa, and the known world. It's perfectly logical that someone who holds himself as superior to other people/countries and consequently anti-immigration, would also believe that if isolationism is not possible, then conquest and submission would be the next best option. The movie really didn't go much into how much of Wakanda's policies were rooted in a (healthy?) does of paranoia and how that paranoia can go both inwards and outwards. On a character note, the movie could have shown more scenes between Killmonger and W'Kabi to establish their insta-BFFness, or at least have Killmonger work a little more on that paranoia. I think the movie generally failed by not depicting enough that Wakanda's decision to start World War III wasn't just Killmonger's decree as King, but also a conflict that had been brewing under the surface for a long time.

OK, another rewatch and I finally remembered to mention something that bugged me: The way Shuri just starts rattling off sensitive vibranium-intel to Ross when he wakes up in her lab. I understand that it was exposition and foreshadowing for when T'Challa disables the suits later, but it was badly contrived. Ross was CIA and there was already tension about him being in Wakanda in the first place, and the first thing Shuri does is spill secrets to him? And why did Ross need to recover in her lab? Why couldn't he have woken up in a Wakanda hospital? Or even better, in a tent like Barnes's did at the end of the movie?

I'm not sure what the issue is here? Regardless of Dany's endgame, Jon can still help his cousins restore Winterfell. But he will never be Lord of Winterfell nor a Stark. Jon's son can still be named Robb, or more likely, Ned.

I don't think you can divorce the writing for that from this: It all boiled down to the same agenda.

These things were self-evidence even without the bts information. Whoever wrote that episode clearly hated Candice/Iris. There's no other way of reading that. Julian gets to stand by Barry's side and hold his hand while he was agonising from Savitar's wound --- but Iris stands by the foot of the bed like if she doesn't belong there? Joe gets over his grief for losing Wally and is able to stand by Barry's head, holding him but Barry's fiancee shows as much concern for him as Jessie Quick? And who is the person who remained at Barry's bedside at the end? Caitlin Nightingale. The next episode is the one where he dumped Iris, and we see a shot of Caitlin in the Speed Force holding a baby that is staged and edited to look like she's holding Barry's and hers child, with Barry even asking, "is that...?" and never finishing the question. Agreed, like the above scene I just described. An example of accidental chemistry was when Damon/Ian Salvatore was supposed to be menacing Bonnie in season 1 and it ended up looking like he was propositioning her. When the show has a scene where Team Flash meet Barry, disoriented from the Speedforce and the first reaction shot after Barry's face is Caitlin's? That's not "accidental" chemistry. That's editing and staging to manufacture chemistry. I'd like to think that Berlanti was adamant that the ship never happened, but if he was, DP would never have been promoting it the way she did. I think it's more likely that the mandate was "Westallen First ... Then We'll See". I remember DP once gave an interview in season 3 where she said to Snowbarry fans that, "it's Westallen's time, so let their fans have that" which... *insert snake gif* AK and DP might have been banking on making Snowbarry endgame so they tried to make Westallen the Clana/Lauriver to endgame Clois/Olicity for Snowbarry. One thing I know for a fact is that AK and his team clearly hated writing Westallen, and it shows. I think the good Westallen moments we got were despite not because of his influence, and might even have had some executive meddling involved.

And again, I said that Caitlin was not shown in any leadership roles (which is not equivalent to management roles) and that she has demonstrated negative leadership skills i.e. skills that objectively make her a bad leader. Which is why we don't agree. And neither do I. *shrugs* If it's all the same to you, I'm moving on from this.

Because even though they're easy enough to confuse and there's a tendency to use them inter-changeably, leadership and management skills are not the same. The ability to run Jitters, Mercury Labs, or any other well-oiled organisation is entirely different from being able to motivate and inspire people, make objective decisions during external and personal crisis, prioritize the team above one's own self, all the while not compromising your moral code. Patently false. Given the choice between saving Caitlin and Barry, she chose to save Caitlin because she knew objectively that Barry had a better chance of saving himself. A twofer that not only neutralised the Samurai but cured Barry/brought back The Flash ... is an example of bad leadership?

I disagree that: The Flash had written Caitlin in leadership roles and that Iris was written without leadership qualities.

@quarks: (1) - (4) - the most significant thing in the list of examples is that it's Arrow-heavy and includes nothing from The Flash (show). Which makes sense considering that the two shows have always emphasised the differences in the moral tone of their heroes, and the show in general. "The Flash" is not expected to endorse the same kind of morality as the "Arrow". (5) & (6) - I stated that Caitlin/Frost's murder of a team member, specifically describing it as a betrayal - as opposed to just killing in general. Apart from the fact that The Flash generally treats the taking of human lives differently from the other shows (see above. also Grodd), I should hope that it's clear that there's a difference between Captain Singh, a career police-officer who has undoubtedly taking the lives of alleged criminals being able to lead CCPD as opposed to if he deliberately murdered one of his officers. Also: Is a good example of why Iris is more suitable than any other member of the Team to lead. (7) - I agree partly. She has neither. Her condition is undefined, and does not even qualify as a metaphorical stand-in for a mental disorder since it is curable* (as opposed to treatable). *A cure that Caitlin refused to take. (8) - Caitlin's conditions make her unqualified to lead team Flash for the same reason that a visually impaired person is unqualified to be a school-bus driver. I'm not sure the real-life implications of a police office shooting his partner because of a psychological condition, but I imagine that at the very least he would need to demonstrate that his condition is being treated such that the situation is not going to re-occur, not so much due to a prejudice against mentally impaired people but in order to ensure the safety of his colleagues after he has already demonstrated that he can be unsafe to them. So while the origins of her affliction are sympathetic, they do not absolve her from taking responsibility for making herself safe/not a threat to the other members of the team. By refusing the Cure and her associations during the hiatus, the show has not demonstrated that she has done so. (Generally, the show has written the entire Killer Frost/Caitlin arc very problematically anyway.) (9) - Agree to disagree. Caitlin is not qualified to lead, both for the reasons caused by her Frost personality and because pre-Killer Frost, she did not demonstrate any significant leadership skills that made her suitable for the position in comparison to Iris. Pre-Killer Frost, Caitlin Snow was a competent follower, not a leader. Perhaps you can give tangible examples of her showing leadership skills in Star Labs or Mercury Labs. The latter surprises me because I thought her escape to Mercury Labs was a clear example of how she lacked both the ability to compartmentalize, and the commitment to be a team Leader. Iris, on the other hand, has shown cool-headness under great personal crisis, the ability to remain steadfast to a code of conduct regardless of circumstances, and prioritise others above her own needs. In addition she has demonstrated the ability to motivate herself and others, and great personal courage - and all this before season 4.

Have Hannah Wells and Kirkman ever met?

He wasn't a leader. He was a businessman - who resented being involved in "Superhero business". I don't know where to start with this one: what between the fact that Caitlin/Killer Frost is schizophrenic under high pressure situations or that Killer Frost betrayed and helped murder a member of Team Flash should qualify her to even be a member of Team Flash, much less lead it?

The new Supergirl promo seemed to have a lot more James Olsen than usual or is it just me? More evidence of AK's stamp being erased from that show?

Between these two spoilers, I am unbelievably psyched! Woohoo!

Like I said, the writing for this show isn't great. It's not the villains. They have cool ideas "in theory". Characters who aren't close to the titular character being written off/shaken off is basically how every story goes so I'm not sure what's unique in that. If anything, I think the Flash writers have a weakness to hold onto characters who no longer serve a purpose because they're fond of the actors. What's the point of the Many Faces of Harrison Wells? Caitlin should have turned villain and stayed villain. (If we're talking long-term effects of Flashpoint, that's actually a pretty profound one). Julian was completely redundant after he was un-Dragonized in the midseason finale. In retrospect, it's clear that Wally and Jesse were introduced too early and as much as I adored them, they probably shouldn't have been on the show at the same time. #toomanyspeedsters. I don't watch Arrow so I'll have to take your word on that. Not sure where you got the impression that I don't want because I'm a Barry fan when I made it clear that I don't want more Flashpoint because the Flash writers can't deliver on the premise. There's a fine line between consequences and Trauma Conga and that's what season 3 turned into.

With the exception of Wellsobard in season 1, the Flash writers have consistently bungled up every season's Big Bad, so the connection to Barry isn't the deciding factor here. Maybe in the hands of better writers, I'd be intrigued to see what more they could spool out of that. But I think we've all come to realise by now that the Flash writers are not exactly Rowling or GRRM or even Whedon-level of good. Our expectations need to be kept low for our own sanity and I for one, was Flashpoint-fatigued long before Savitar stepped out of that freakshow of a suit. Now I am currently living (it up) in a post-Flashpoint era, and if we never re-visit that storyline again, I won't shed any tears. I don't hate Barry - I think he suffers from Protagonist-Centered-Morality like most white Teds on USA TV shows. But I agree that if this show ever wanted to end its run by turning Barry into a villain, the seeds are there. But that's as likely to happen as them casting a character to play Killer Frost and letting her actually kill anyone so..

? Again, why have an honest discussion about race when we can throw up red herrings instead? Well that's it right there - it makes sense so of course the Flash writers weren't going to do that. You mean like Crisis on Earth-X where Red Arrow wanted to kill Supergirl to save his boo, Overgirl? So basically the producers came up with a far less offensive plot line for a 4-episode cross-over for 2 white characters that aren't in the same show --- but over a year-long season couldn't come up with something less offensive for the "Gold Standard" interracial couple on their most popular show? I am [not] shocked! Also, I just read a theory of Sara Diggle being Mystery Girl born out of the Speed-force because of Mystical Science, to avenge Barry from erasing her from existence. Can you imagine how absolutely brilliant it would have been if Sara Diggle had been Savitar instead? If she had been some remainder product of Flashpoint, who got trapped in the speedforce and grew up and grew insane, and broke out of the speedforce to punish Barry for damning her? Can you imagine how much that would resonate emotionally and even make more Mystical Science-sense than what we had? Yet without the offensiveness of watching Iris be murdered over and over again by a version of the man she loved? And hey, look at that - a formidable female Big Bad, since they can't commit to sullying their precious Caity Frost, and cross-over potential and repercussions with Diggle and Lyla. Wow, suddenly Lyla not being gung-ho to help Barry with King Shark actually makes sense and not just another friend being callous and casual about Iris's death for reasons. Nuff said.