Carrie Ann

Yeah, I'm now definitely of the opinion that Zombie Tommy is happening, but Sara's gonna stay dead. Also, it seems like we've got three dead wives/mothers on The Flash too, right? And so far the only person to come back to life (not counting Barry, who was a close call) is Ronnie. So...yeah. At least these people are consistent. I mean, I know this is a comics-wide--hell, a culture-wide--problem, but damn. This is why you make a new interpretation of a thing. So you can update, put a spin on things, stop making the same mistakes. Ahem. Anyway. As I've said before, I have no use for Tommy in any form, but if Zombie Tommy saves Oliver then at least he'll have done one good thing in his life/lives.

On the Ray/Felicity front: there is no reason they couldn't have paced out the Ray story better over these nine episodes. He didn't need to be in The Climb at all, clearly wasn't needed in the crossover, so honestly, I wish they'd covered this dead fiance* and super suit story in Eps 5-7. There's no reason for Team Arrow not to know about the suit, if Felicity wanted to tell them, and it doesn't hurt the drama in any way. It's like the producers came up with their Season 3A events and reveals and stuck ALL of them in the premiere and this finale, with only tiny little scraps doled out haphazardly in the other seven episodes. There's no reason for that. All it does is lead to BIG EVENT episodes where not a single moment gets to breathe, so none of them land well. *SIGH. We don't yet know what happened to Tatsu, but it doesn't sound great, and that means we're talking about basically every single superhero or villain on this show being motivated via fridging. Holy God, please someone responsible for this show--look at the optics of all the women you keep killing or hurting or stealing agency from, and find. another. way.

Couple things: after Oliver says the I love you and leaves Felicity gaping, she's doing the Oliver thing with her fingers. Also, after stabbing Oliver in the right side, avoiding his heart, Ra's shoves him off the cliff, looks off the edge and slams the sword in the rock. It seemed sort of...intentional. Probably not, but worth noting in case.

Shhhh, because then for the next four hours I will be hoping and praying that somehow this did happen, and it turns out that the real reason he has to fight Ra's al Ghul is to get Sara back somehow. That she's the one person he's fighting for, not Thea. This has been the secret hope in my heart since 301, and I know it's not going to happen, but she's the only person I want coming out of those damn pits.

Just for posterity: Guggenheim: The one thing I want to clarify -- and I don't know how this happened -- it got out there in the ether that we were doing a Black Canary arc. That's not really the case. Kreisberg: Episodes 10, 11 and 12 are a three-part trilogy that are about her. Guggenheim: In episodes 10, 11 and 12, there's some pretty huge growth for Laurel and big steps taken on the road to becoming the Black Canary. That said, it's not the Black Canary show. Kreisberg: She's not as present in [the crossover], but that is because we've been building up to her appearance as the Black Canary. Episodes 10, 11 and 12 are a three-part trilogy that are about her. For fans of Laurel and for fans of Katie, they're going to get more than their fill after the winter break. Guggenheim: I'd say episode 10 is all about Team Arrow and dealing with the ramifications and the aftershocks of 309. Roy, Felicity and Diggs really come to the fore in 10, 11 and 12, for reasons I think will be pretty clear by the time you see episode 9. Kreisberg: (Once more, with feeling) Episodes 10, 11 and 12 are a three-part trilogy that are about [Laurel]. I know that MG is the real showrunner of Arrow these days, and therefore Kreisberg probably spoke out of turn a bit, but it's pretty hilarious that they're acting like this came from nowhere.

This is why this whole stupid "lose her memories" thing has been utterly pointless. This is playing out EXACTLY like their "breakup" did last season. Like, she's trying to be mad at him, but her feeeeeeelings are just too strong, and life is too short, and everyone else be damned. Like, if we were just going to do this all over again, what was the point of any of it to begin with? God these writers are dull.

Yeah, I have a sinking feelings we're gonna need a lot of fanfic rewrites of this 9/10 scene, and then maybe the rest of the season too. Gonna go take my pessimism and drown it in some ice cream/bourbon.

I'm trying to remind myself that while MG refers to the Olicity scene as a 9 out of 10, he's coming at it from a dramatic perspective. It could be chock full of goodness and emotion, but also end badly. That's how SA's previous favorite ever Olicity scene went, right? From the premiere? Not sure we ever learned exactly which he was referring to, but I assumed the date or the kiss, and we know how both of those scenes ended. I'm not convinced either way yet, but Ray's continued presence isn't helping.

Oh hahaha, wacky hijinks! My sister was murdered and I don't have the common decency to tell our parents and let them grieve, whatever will I do now?!

When I watched the SA interview, it actually seemed to me that he wasn't really talking about "fallout" between Felicity and Oliver. He referenced it in a string of other things going on in 309 (Dinah Lance returning, Malcolm stuff, etc.), so while I suspect that there will be some reference to Ray with O/F, I do think the actual "fallout" was just referring to Ray and Felicity addressing what happened, in some manner similar to what others have speculated about here. As far as the DNA markers question, I think MG might have just meant that they didn't mean to implicate so many other people by using that phrase. Just that that's how you refer to it. I'm not convinced that Thea will be implicated this episode, or at least not in this way. I think someone's framing Oliver himself here, and whatever Thea's involvement is, that's not the motivation to go fight Ra's al Ghul.

Right? Not sure where this idea came from. It came from piles of spoilers but in particular, one interview from all of two weeks ago.

Laurel is not a part of Team Arrow, or not the TA I want to watch. And yeah, no Oliver, no TA. But, you know, nice try taking that back.

They've talked about this at Cons, I think? Stephen says absolutely never, and that makes me happy. :) I could see it on The Flash though, so maybe a crossover there instead, with only the singing Arrow cast members.

My initial post was to say that there ARE people in the fandom who tend to forget that sometimes Felicity has encouraged Oliver to kill or use violence. Glad you don't! I didn't mean to imply that I think Felicity's a "bad person," or that she doesn't "harness Oliver's light." My point was that I wouldn't be surprised if she encouraged him to kill Ra's al Ghul, OR if the writers saw that as OOC because they forgot that she does this sometimes.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did forget, because honestly, a lot of fandom seems to forget it. And truth be told, that "Go. Get Thea. Do whatever it takes." scene struck me as weird at the time. Like it seemed like Sara and Felicity switched dialogue in that scene. Now I like that she was like that--I like that her morality isn't so black-and-white. But a lot of people--I think including the writers sometimes--want her to only be the "light." As far as the scene, I agree with @apinknightmare that the only thing that would really shock me is if she lied to him in some way, but trying to convince him to turn away from his humanity would surprise me too.

Barry told her the wrong secret. The timing was totally wrong to tell her about his feelings, although I understand why he did. And at the same time, she's in more danger than ever and she deserves to know that.

Like a crazy person, I just checked out the relevant scenes from that episode (Vertigo, S1), and they never specify the charges. Just that they got it down from prison time to 500 hrs community service and two years of probation, plus she lost her license. So...no answers.

Yeah, I honestly can't remember what the result of that DUI was. I know she was over 18 when it happened, and that she got out of jailtime and had to do community service at CNRI for it instead. But I don't remember what that means w/r/t it being on her record or what the ultimate charge was.

I loved that their closeness was evident and believable enough to make you wonder whether they were a couple, but I was okay that they aren't together. Yet. Because yeah, their interactions kinda made me ship it. I wouldn't have shipped HS or College Wallace/Mac, but Adult Wallace/Mac totally works for me. I think I said earlier here that one of the things I really liked about the movie was how the characters had changed, but in ways that tracked with their previous characterization, and the Mac/Wallace dynamic is one example of that. Logan was the only one who was shockingly different, but that was intentional. (I do still wish we'd seen more of that mischievous, glittery-eyed Logan that I know and love, but I also get that it would have sort of undercut how traumatized he was supposed to be.) (But if we get some hints in the upcoming book that that guy still exists inside him, I will be pleased.)

I love Amy Santiago so much.

I like Michael Malarkey too, and personality-wise, I don't have a real problem with Enzo. He's just a poorly-drawn character with threadbare motivations, and it makes it really hard to care about him or buy into what he does. It makes for bad drama, bad storytelling. That's why I find him tiresome.

I think they decided not to go down that path, and since we've never seen succubi in universe, we should assume she's just human. A horrible human, but human nonetheless.

There's also a still, I think from the promo, that shows Stefan comforting her and he looks freaked out, so yeah whatever happens is outside of Steroline. I think it's Liz, but that just seems almost ridiculous at this point. She's the last living parent (aside from Matt's deadbeat mom and dad, wherever the hell they are).

What I don't understand is why "they" would have Thea's DNA in any database? Just because she was arrested for DUI or whatever?

I like that we're getting to the Reverse Vampires stage of our theorizing here.