Churchhoney

Bingo. That, plus being "taught" by idiots who don't care at all about knowledge or ideas or information or creativity and who radiate their disdain for such things from every pore. With all that, it's a wonder the kids have remained sentient beings at all, I expect. Because not only did they "learn" a lot through repetition, a lot of it in the Gothard world is repetition of ideas, mantras, philosophies that you must believe. It's not just repeating the times tables or the forms of irregular verbs. It's repeating a bunch of half-assed "principles" that some mean old fart decrees encapsulate the meaning of life and your parents make you swallow. Going brain dead was the inevitable -- and possibly even the intended? -- result of that, I think.

Of course, to my mind, those things would attest to his having some spirit and intelligence as well!

This strikes me as what Jim Bob was thinking, too. But here's what I don't get about Joe himself. Now, I've seen almost nothing of him, since I have never actually watched the show. But there does seem to be a general perception that he wouldn't care about going to college really. And yet -- for a long time they've said that he gets up early every morning and reads the Bible. (KJV, I'm thinking) And wasn't he one that actually memorized the Book of Proverbs or something? How can someone be attentive enough to thought and poetry and formal, old-fashioned English to read the KJV every morning -- reportedly for a fairly long period every day? -- but then have no intellectual interests at all that might pull him toward college? That seems like a huge contradiction to me. If he's actually able to concentrate on Old Testament readings from the KJV on a daily basis, I would think that he has to have some ability with language and some interest in ideas. I mean, Lincoln -- a poor young man largely deprived of books in the early going -- famously imbibed much of his eventually spectacular prose style from regular readings of the Oxford Bible. And he's not the only old-time poor-person-made-good of whom this is said. Their abilities showed in the fact that they would apply themselves to that reading with energy and on a regular basis. ....... Now I know that Joe Duggar would most likely be reading it for a different reason. But if he truly does read it every morning, I don't see how he can be the complete intellectual dullard that he's generally expected to be. ....Of course then I think of Bin.... But then does Bin actually read it or just find quotes on PInterest and Instagram that have a lot of death-and-destruction words in them? Baffled by the Duggs and the bible. As by the Duggs and so many things.

Sorry. We cannot tell you that. We can tell you that the kids clearly know about it and have joked about it on national television. They are such a wholesome, godly, clean-minded and conservative, old-fashioned family.

Just picture that panel of uneducated, not-too-bright, unemployed, briefly six-figure-making, arrogant, flabby, entitled, misogynistic, hypocritical, sister-molesting, lazy, wimpy, former political-wannabeish, super-Christian, head-of-household mama's boys and former reality-tv stars.

Well, we know it'll be the bolded part, at least. I guess somebody noticed all the complaints about the JD/Jana greeting. "Mom and Dad" left their name off the signature this time.

Well, you're certainly right about that being their schtick! I'm still thinking that "once bitten, twice shy" will also be a lurking influence that may make at least some of them less enthusiastic in embracing old Joshley again, despite their schtick. And, you know, they can't tell that sin and redemption narrative in court. That can only be put out there through the Duggars' own communications channels and to whatever degree they can convince the media to parrot it -- and I think their chances of getting the media to parrot it much, if at all, are slim. So only the leghumpers who really closely follow the Duggars' own utterances, expressed through their own web presence and those of their close friends and most trusted fans, are likely to get a good dose of that narrative. I'd lay money on its not getting expressed very much from pulpits, for example. After all, while some still stand by Gothard, for example, he's lost a lot of influence and followers over the years. Not everyone who has that schtick follows it to its ultimate conclusions, clearly. I'm not saying that Josh will lose all the leghumpers. But even losing a mere handful -- while failing to produce a strong wave of increased support from the others (which you expect and I, being an optimist?!, don't!) -- would produce a net loss for him in reputation and viability. Since the jury-trial spectacle will certainly sink him further with everybody else.

Yeah, I suppose a lot of fundienutters won't like him any less. I still have a hard time seeing many of them liking him more after a trial goes forward, so long as the trial doesn't present really pretty strong evidence that he didn't do anything. After all, he was only repentant after the fact, and since he participated in the first place, there's a lot less room to see it as Christian persecution from the outset. I'm sure some will yell, Christian persecution! but I don't see how anything's going to come out that could make many be very enthusiastic when they yell it. And, honestly, that's what I think he would need to get any actual concrete redemption out of this. Because most of us non-fundienutters (and we're the largest group, and some of us are even fundies, I'm pretty sure) certainly will like him less after a jury trial and the accompanying media. And, to me, that just amounts to a bunch of people liking him just as much as they did before and a whole bunch more liking him even less. So -- still a net loss on my calculation.

I don't know. To me, this seems idiotic on his part. (or the part of his handlers or Jim Bob or whichever strategic genius made this decision) If it actually goes to trial it's going to get even more media attention, because jury trials, even in civil cases, just naturally attract that. And how can press about sex really hurt a person in the sex business, especially somebody who -- in my opinion, anyway -- has been pretty masterfully playing this whole thing for media attention for marketing purposes all along? On the other hand, seems to me increased media attention to Josh Duggar's sex-cum-violence trial can only hurt him and the "Duggar brand." (Is this just wishful thinking on my part? Am I missing something?) I can't see how even a bunch of fundienutters outside the courthouse waving signs about Christian Persecution can save Joshie from being pretty much mashed into the muck by the media and the public commentary on media sites, for the most part. Given the way this went down and the things he did and said back in the beginning, I don't see how Josh's lawyer can credibly make the case that this event actually never happened at all -- which it seems to me is the case he'll have to make to keep Mr. Super-Jesus-y Hypocrite from falling even further in the public's estimation. No matter what anybody thinks of sex workers or of how Danica's handled all this, it's Josh who was repeatedly on teevee and twitter judging the rest of the country for having sex in any other situation than married-hoping-to-produce-a-conservative-Christian-infant. I would think that most people would either judge Danica harshly just because of the work she does and has done or feel that, no matter what work you do, nobody should knock you around in a nonconsensual way. And in the case of those who judge either way, I don't see that she has any further to fall in anyone's estimation. For Josh, on the other hand, no matter what happens in this trial -- unless he has ironclad proof that he's never seen her before and was nowhere near Philadelphia -- it's just going to provide further proof of what an offensive hypocrite he is. And I don't see how that can be good for him (or for the Duggars, really), whether he prevails in the trial or doesn't prevail. Sometimes the quality of your outcome in a crisis depends on the expectations you've asked people to have of you. Simply by virtue of being in the sex industry, Danica's basically given the world no expectations. So she can't fall. But Josh deliberately, vociferously and over and over (along with his whole family) has done nothing all his life but insist that we should have the very highest expectations of his behavior. So he's got miles to fall off that self-constructed pedestal even now, it seems to me.

, Throw in Jessa's personality, and his outlook would only get worse.

It always seemed to me that she was a lot less likely to be looking for a payday than to be looking for increased fame in her niche -- which in turn would lead to a much longer-running series of paychecks. From the very beginning, she's readily supplied media outlets with sexy pics of herself -- and the photos are marketing... the Josh story is just the hook that opened the media door so they would publish those marketing pictures of her. I thought it was remarkable immediately how many erotic-entertainer-portfolio pics she was handing over to numerous outlets and seeing run. And now she's gone straight to Hustler with the tale -- and, again, Hustler is a perfect marketing vehicle for somebody in erotic entertainment. I don't know whether her sister's onto something about DD actually targeting Josh for all this enterprise, but I'm sure that, once it began, she had her eyes fixed on its potential for advertising her services. Wouldn't surprise me at all if she brought the lawsuit mainly as a way to prolong public interest so that she could get more of her photos out there in the right media. She'll get jobs from this. I think that's what she wants, especially since she's getting a bit long in the tooth for her career. This exposure plus the interest generated by her controversy will definitely get her some gigs that she might otherwise have lost to somebody newer and fresher, I expect.

Well, she's certainly got herself quite the little career builder here. Can't say I begrudge her that at all, but at the same time it increases my skepticism about her full credibility.

lol

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just sayin. Well, not entirely. It's also about putting a whopping proportion of humanity -- all women and all of your offspring -- under the complete power of a bunch of insecure but nevertheless arrogant, power-mad men, for both sexual and other purposes. Truly. That's all it's about.

I don't know. I kind of like the idea of him charging across the ramp, taken by surprise, scrambling like a lunatic on the hundreds of glassy marbles, and then falling onto his head into the ravine, with a big stick angled into his eye. Something in that image just really appeals to me. Can't imagine what. ; ) You mean let heathens with rakes and hoes within viewing distance (and spitting distance and storm the gates with flaming torches distance) of the TTH? Sounds Daynjerss to me, Ethel.

Well, I hate to be the one defending anything on the Duggar property. But while I haven't seen a lot of treehouses being constructed, I've seen a few -- and they all look terrifying in the early stages. (and a lot look terrifying forever -- on purpose, in fact) That's sort of the nature of a treehouse. It starts out as a bunch of sticks stuck up somewhere holding some sort of platform on high, where you feel as if no sticks or platform should really be. And in the end, what a treehouse is -- and what you want it to be -- is a bunch of sticks stuck up somewhere holding a platform on high, where no sticks or platform should really be. If they have any help or instructions for building this treehouse, it will probably be just fine. I don't think much of TLC-the-network's ethics. But I also think the TLC producers probably do want the structure they're filming to at least stand up.

May well be true! I was sort of thinking that this whole thing was producer driven, in which case TLC would have a hand in directing the building, the same way they did with the TTH, which has prevented it from falling down. (so far, anyway) I mean, who among the actual Duggars would have initiated this project? JIzm Bob? Drugged-out Momma? I doubt it.

They've got fairly small trees. It may be that a substantial-sized treehouse actually elevated in a tree isn't feasible. In the treehouse world, there are lots of platform-type treehouses among trees and sometimes anchored onto those trees because they're safer and more feasible to build -- they can be much bigger. And they often start with ramps, because that's how you get into the house and it's often an integral part of the structure. I'm sure this will have sides and a roof of some kind. That said, I'm sure it's production-driven. Although maybe some of the kids have said they'd like a treehouse -- because who wouldn't like a retreat from the TTH? I suggest that Jana pack up her furniture, chat up somebody at the lumber yard who'll sneak into the compound after hours and put a little stove and an electrical hookup on there, and then move in as soon as the walls are up. She can put marbles on the ramp for Jim bob.

Is it just me or does Josiah seem to be among the missing lately?

It's the Gothard way. Always dress for an old fart's fetish. While pretending that you're not. Especially if he's Chester the Molester. ("Feet aren't sexual! TM Meeeeeeeeeeechelle "The Dumbass" Duggar)

This course probably isn't available at Journey to the Heart. Not that much when you don't do anything but heat frozen lasagna and bake-n-serve rolls.

Everybody's different, though, both in experience and in temperament. I'm much more like the Duggars, definitely in upbringing, less so in temperament but still clearly more like them in temperament than many others, and it was terribly terribly difficult for me to do this. And I did it only because I was convinced that the result, otherwise, would be suicide if I didn't get out, and that I might have turned the violence against others, too. (not exaggerating here) Even having done it, I was a frightening psychological mess for years after I left. And I'd had tons more exposure to the world than the Duggars and Anna have. Certainly some people can just buck up and move on when they've had zero experience with making friends, have lived under constant surveillance and in social isolation and had their egos assaulted daily for life, but for others it's really really difficult. If I'd had young children at the time, as Anna has, I think I probably would have stayed because the prospect would have been even more daunting because the burdens and responsibilities would have been so much greater. If you leave alone, as I did, you really don't have any responsibilities. That's freeing. I very much wish Anna would go, and I do think that having a sibling who seems willing to help her makes a difference that, if she were smart, she'd appreciate and use as her crutch for leaving. But I really really understand why she doesn't. Social isolation and not being given any chances to learn that you're competent to navigate the world on your own can take a really big toll on some people. I envy those who have the guts to just feel the fear and do it anyway. But when I look at my own family's inability to break free for the most part and at what it took for me to do it, I just can't go along with thinking that it's possible for anyone. Maybe it's not.

The Wallers have spent quite a bit of time hip-hopping around the world trying to bring people to Gothard. See here, for example -- http://visionserve.org/category/familynews/page/4/ and here http://visionserve.org/category/mongolia/ And all of their children are grinding their teeth down to the gum line, as far as I can tell. http://visionserve.org/

Yeah. "The Assembly" and Assemblies of God are completely different. Religions give lots of control-freak nutjobs excuses to bludgeon groups of people. They're so easy to use as cover for somebody's sick need to have a little authoritarian group all to him or herself. And it's especially easy in the more conservative reaches of Protestantism, I think, because it's kind of a kernel of Protestant belief that individuals can get big revelations on their own -- they don't have to wait around for the Catholic hierarchy or even agreement within a more loosely organized denomination, like Episcopalians or something. So the nutjobs can start their own churches. Some might do that because they truly want to serve God or help people. But to me the evidence suggests that most do it because they want to be little tin gods/tinpot dictators/etc on their own. Religion's probably the easiest way to do this, too. If you try to be a little tin god as an individual, you can't give people worldshaking reasons to let you have your way, but if you say God talked to you, then you can. And if you try to be a little tin god through political means, you're going to attract opposition and it'll be much harder to do, because you really have to rule over all the people in a whole local area, at least, if you're going to do it. But if you do it through religion, you just grab a group of vulnerable people that you can snow and go off and form your manipulative "church" with them in isolation. And nobody will stop you.

Ah, lovely when your smile looks like a grimace of terrible pain. I wonder how many out of this whole generation of raised-as-Gothardites ever muster up a plain old natural smile.