Churchhoney

I don't think that many would. But that reliance on "immortality" always kind of makes me laugh, too. Some of the people I know who hold it seem pretty bored and slow-moving in the limited lifespan they believe they've got as fleshy creatures on this planet. What the heck they're going to do for all eternity is a headscratcher, if you ask me? Of course, I know it's just fear that makes them want not to die. But still -- I don't know how many have actually tried to contemplate what an eternity of just praising God would be like. I think a lot of people would sleep through most of that.

All the Duggs and Seewalds are likely to, I think. I don't think we've seen anythnig specifically from J and D that state this, but we certainly have from others, including others on those Duggar mission trips, I think. It underlies the group thinking in the groups they've all belonged to, I'm pretty sure. Not that means everybody actually holds to it. The thing is, they have to come up with some reason why theirs is the only true form of Christianity, so they pump whatever they've got, dumb as it may be to anybody with half a brain.

Damn this country for its war on Christianity and its vile abandonment of its fundie Christian roots!

Or just permanently posted Josh beside the sign that said "reprobate," where he was standing in the Christmas video. I will always wonder whether some TLC director or camera person who knew too much might have posed him there on purpose.

Wow. They should change their name to Insults R Us (Hey -- IRU --- Maybe then they could link up with RU and ... I don't know what. Maybe be even exponentially more stupid and grifty than either group alone?)

Honestly, I think it's both the political connections -- which Gothard has been very very very careful to cultivate over the years (and there have been more "exposes" hopefully written about some of these, at both the state and federal level, and they too have gone nowhere) -- along with the fact that most people just really don't care what happens as long as it doesn't happen to them. And for most of us, we can figure we wouldn't get caught in the Gothard horrors because we wouldn't join his group or be a struggling at-risk youth or whatever. Gothard's lifelong cynicism sure is fully on display in the way he's glommed onto politicians, though. So he wouldn't be inconveniently around when Jizm Bob enticed TLC to start filming at the compound again?

And unfortunately this is just one of several very good investigations into Gothard-related doings over the years that seemed to promise that his evil empire was going to get widespread negative media, government and public attention and be squelched ..... And then nobody but the original investigators ever actually picked up on the thing .... So I'm only cautiously optimistic now. On the other hand, they're dying on their own anyway. I sometimes wonder whether Gothard may have even known from the beginning that, given how cults usually go, his would likely exist only long enough to fulfill his specific wants for fetish-service, power and money -- and maybe his brothers' -- and then collapse. I think he could have been that cynical his whole life. He looks like a cartoon-caricature of evil. I'd kind of laugh if he's known all along that it would all fall in a heap on his henchmen when he was too old to care.

"Did SOS write in a new requirement so Jill would qualify as an SOSer. Is that why she took the Midwifery exam?" Good question. And I have another -- Do we know that SOS actually has any requirements, aside from completing a level of language training? If so, can somebody say what they are? I gather that SOS is pretty heavily inculcated with the Gothard gang, given Mr. SOS's featured presence at camps and such. Does anybody know what other church/cult/relig-org groups they're officially or semi-officially involved with? ...And, uh, given current events, I wonder how comfortable they're feeling if Gothardites make up a large portion of their revenue base? ... And ... HA HA.

And they've been accused by the Gothard gang of being every kind of rotten, nutso, gold-digging meanies, who are trying to bring down a wonderful man for their own selfish purposes, even when there was no talk at all of lawsuits or money. So they probably also want to make it as clear as possible that they aren't doing it for the cash -- to avoid a new uproar over their monetary demands. They're hoping for as few distractions as possible during their quest to shut down the house of horrors. Hope they get their wish.

Every time SOS comes up, all I can see is the casual, thoughtless cultural bigotry and arrogance of their whole "program" or whatever the hell it is. Maybe a stealth tourism operation clothed as "missionary work" so they can profit from church donations as well as from the fundietourists' fees and the fundietourists can say that they went to CA to "work and minister" and not vacation? Or an ugly-American reachout program, teaching people around the world that, yes, we in the United States really are the arrogant clueless jerks that others have said we are? Seriously. I can't imagine what the local people are thinking when Derick and Jill pull up with their flock of missioncationers to "preach" and "minister," without knowing the language or the culture or, in fact, knowing anything at all about anything at all. Maybe -- "What the fuck? How insulting! But I guess we should pretend to go along with it because I suppose this gang of yahoos'll bring in some tourist dollars. And they'll go away soon."

Jill's going to preach. Uh-huh. In Spanish. Uh-huh. ... Might as well try some indigenous dialect as well, as long as we're being ambitious. ...Guessing there'll be a lot of that mimed preaching going on.

Wow, the IBLP story is everywhere. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/bill-gothard-sexual-abuse-lawsuit I think they're going to be sorry they ever let the Duggars in their little group or encouraged them to be on the TeeVee. It's the Duggar connection that's driving this story. Maybe after all the false starts of scandals that people hoped would bring the Gothard mess down, the level of Duggar hate that's developed in many quarters together with the sexual details will keep this one going. ... Of course, GothardDome is tottering on its last legs anyway, but it'd still be heartening to see it go out with the ugly bang it deserves.

I'm sure it is somewhat more common. Mainly because people generally join this group because they're sick, power freaks, etc. Messed-up people are inevitably going to do more of the messed-up stuff. And then, of course, this is a group that further isolates you, and that too is going to ramp up the neuroticism, both of individuals and within the families. .... What really bugs me about the Jill/Jessa formulation, though, is that they basically said that because it's so common it's not a big deal. ... No, idiots, bigger deal the commoner it is.

Actually, I may just think he's sicker than you do! He is so warped, given all the things that have been said over the years and reading his written crap, that I actually have a hard time seeing him doing something as simple and straightforward as rape, really. .... "Failing to rape" doesn't have to mean "doing less harm," to my mind, anyway. It's the mind torture and warping that accompanied whatever he did physically that really amped up the volume, in my opinion. That, and the fact, that most of the adults involved with these girls were all actively shutting them up and shoving aside the whole thing, which was further mental torment. I hope that he did do the rape, now that accusation has come out, since I think that might stimulate the justice system to maybe actually really pin something serious on these people. The big tragedy here is that all the rest of the many many horrors Gothard and company have perpetrated on people -- and that have been gradually revealed, in bunches, over the years -- are apparently too subtle for the powers that be and much of the public to respond to really negatively, given how much it's all been brushed off and repeatedly overlooked. I would definitely like to see these guys squirm. Rape or no rape, BG and his band have destroyed a ton of people. Yeah, I quoted some stuff from a couple of new Gothard and Gothard-henchpeople websites a while ago. He and they labeling it these days as "affirmative touches on the feet" to bolster the spirits and confidence of girls he was "counseling." The girls' descriptions, on Recovering Grace and elsewhere, depict it as hideous forced footsie games in cars and in his office. Michelle, of course, will tell you that "Feet aren't sexual!" Sickening, huh?

Whoa. Be careful what you ask for, IBLP Board. I have to say I'm a little skeptical of the rape claim, just because his particular warp seems to go in other directions. And BG certainly contributed mightily to the destruction of that poor damaged young woman, whatever it is he actually did to her physically. But even without it, there's such a huge amount of stuff here. Hard to see how this could get completely blown off. Although it certainly has been evaded successfully for a helluva long time. And I don't care if the Bates manage to look sweet. All the adults in this group, and especially the men of course, are disgusting, and cruel and rotten to the core, with all their hypocrisy and tyranny. Shut the damn mess down entirely. (of course others will spring up.... humans are nuts)

I kind of think that, besides the stinginess, the control-freakiness, the desire to isolate and even some subconscious fear that the kids would see a different way of life and ask some questions also play in. As we've discussed, some of the other Gothard parents buy into his stuff the way the Duggars do but nevertheless aren't personally as nuts as JB and M. I think they have several reasons for being less likely than some others to let their kids spend much time in other people's houses. Extreme personality disorders. They really aren't sane. They just play sane on tv. Unfortunately.

I haven't really been watching this stuff. But, very sad. Must be uncomfortable to watch.... I do have a feeling that Jill -- and most of the rest of the Duggar kids, probably -- would give off a similar vibe around any "outsider." The fact is, they're not comfortable with anyone -- including not only their immediate family but their very selves -- I think. But by now they're numb to the presence of their fam and some of the extended Gothardom, so the overall discomfort at home isn't obvious. And their whole upbringing has been devoted to warning them off real conversations, too, I think. And she may never have one, I would guess. I think now it's up to Derick and Izzy to force her to and educate her to this, if they realize it and if they will and can. And who knows whether one is and the other will be up to that task? Among their false-face family living pretty much in a single room all the time (in Duggar-Dome... love that), Gothardism, and manicuring their lives for suitability to tv, the concept of real conversation got killed off in all these kids, I expect.

Thanks. I appreciate that. .... To my mind, though, there's actually plenty of reason why the others couldn't! Not everybody is the same, for one thing, and I had many advantages that others that don't have -- going to public school, working for other people, and some months in another home when I was very young that I don't even remember but that I suspect left subconscious impressions of a different way of living that helped me. Despite all that and despite my having left, here's one little story (there are many) of how deep my brainwashing goes: In my home the chief perpetrator often pulled knives on people. If you were in the kitchen with this person and a butcher knife was on the counter, for example, you would very frequently find yourself in a choke hold with the knife at your throat or up against a wall with the knife pointed at your ribs and a glaring face in your face. This happened hundreds of times. This person had both an extreme unpredictable temper and a cold, calm terrifying anger, exhibited at least one of these every day -- often several times in a day -- and was entirely capable of violence and comfortable with committing it. The proper response to the knife action, one quickly learned, was to smile and laugh gently and appreciatively at what a fine joke this was. If you did, you would eventually be let go...and the perp would laugh, too. One day, when I was past 40, it occurred to me -- for the first time -- that this was quite a sick thing, a part of the problems in that home, and possibly a damaging thing to do to people. ..... This was the very first time that this thought had ever crossed my mind. Even then, I had to push myself to realize that, yes, this was more than a joke. No one had actually been stabbed or cut in these incidents. So I had accepted this as a joke. For over 40 years. In fact, I'm hearing a voice in my head at this minute, as I describe this, saying, "Oh, come on. What is the big deal?" .... And I am the only member of my family today who thinks that these were likely very damaging incidents. That's how deep brainwashing can go, especially when it's brainwashing of children! So, mad as the Duggar kids frequently make me, I'm like Libby Anne -- I mostly worry about them.

Could be, but I have to say that, if I woke up and realized that I'd married someone who was going to attach me to Jim Bob for the rest of my life, I might run well to another country with no other plan but escaping my in-laws. I still think that the main impetus here could be that Derick had no idea whatsoever what he was getting into by marrying Jill Duggar and when he started to find out grabbed his little family and ran, since he had no idea what to do about being eaten alive by scary Duggardom, but he did (sort of, he thought) know how to be a pretend missionary. No matter what it is that triggered the run, though, they seem to be sort of eternally left without a plan. Will be interesting to see what the hell they ever do. But I could say that about the other kids as well, especially the other two married couples. It's just mind-boggling to think about an extended family with not one but three young married couples a-pumping out the younguns, with not a single young parent out of the six having an actual job. And everybody acting as if this is somehow normal and not a gigantic accelerating problem, including tons of "fans," who act as if it's great. I keep wondering what those fans would think if they had a burgeoning horde of folks like this in their own families.

Libby Anne isn't a leghumper at all. She's a liberal atheist feminist escapee from a very similar family who absolutely loathes and despises Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar. But since she's been a kid in such a family, and knows tons of kids in such families, including her own younger siblings, she worries about them, is all. And she has firsthand insider knowledge of what kind of crap goes on, especially when it comes to homosexuality, in these particular groups. She's really not "holding anyone responsible" for backlash. She's just pointing out some stuff that, in her view, doesn't help. I have to say that while I don't agree with everything she writes in this vein, I think she's probably quite right about the sexuality stuff -- not least because people who are using their "gaydar" from a distance are quite often wrong about it, in my experience. Not necessarily fair to put those labels on young kids who would be in jeopardy, since what the heck is the point of our doing it? MMV, obviously.

Well, I meant one-off in the sense of "not an ongoing-over-time affair with one person." He had a few one-offs. (or two-offs, in one case, anyway) And I would still be very very very surprised if that's a less common thing than in-the-family child molestation. In any group, Gothardism included. And, to me anyway, it's a lot less alarming in its potential consequences. MMV on that, obviously.

Also interesting how they say that intra-family child molestation is an everyday thing and no big deal. But one-off adulterous liaisons are absolutely, completely unheard of. Somehow I think this can't be right.

Poor thing. She really must be devastated, given how she's been raised. And then she has to keep sweet about it. So many of their lives are probably chock full of sadness and resentments and a heaping helping of falsehoods to obscure the other two. Awful, really.

Indeed. And "branch out" instead of "reach out"? Either she's got a very poor grasp of word usage and vocabulary or she's a very careless editor of her work. Neither a good thing for the head of a rather large one-room schoolhouse.

Here, Tabitha and a leghumper have a comment-section exchange on Tabitha's life plans and her current life with those godly Duggars. .... She has, um, some writing challenges, too, looks like. Anyway, altogether -- Crikey. http://12paines.com/about/tabitha/ Becky says: November 10, 2015 at 3:03 am Is Tabitha courting anyone at the moment? I’ve seen her with the Duggars a lot over the last year or so and I was wondering if maybe she was courting John-David. It would be great if you could either confirm or deny this. :) Tabitha says: November 13, 2015 at 1:16 pm @ Becky So glad you asked! It’s easy to assume and few people branch out to find the real answer to questions like these :) I have been a live-in tutor to the Duggar children for the past year. Because we don’t do school 24/7 I am able to join in with the family’s work, and fun activities during the weekends and evenings. Hence, the reason why you may see so many pictures! But, I am in no such relationship. I may just be single for the rest of my life I sure do enjoy where God has me, and want to do as Jim Elliot encouraged: “Wherever you are; Be all there”! Blessings! Becky M. says: November 13, 2015 at 8:51 pm Tabitha, thank you so much for replying to my comment! I hope I didn’t offend anyone by asking such a personal question. It’s just that the Duggars have really helped me a lot over the years, even though I’ve never actually met them. They’ve really influenced my life and made it possible for me to grow closer to God. It has been such a joy to watch three of the Duggars (Josh, Jill, and Jessa) grow from children to adults and witness them marry and start families. I consider it an honor to have been a small part of that, as a viewer of the show and a long-time fan of the family. It breaks my heart a little bit knowing that I won’t be able to have that insight into the rest of the family anymore. :( Could you maybe share my feelings with them, and let them know that they have a very loyal fan and supporter in me? Thank you and thanks again for responding. It really made my day! :) Becky (PS) Just out of curiosity, is anyone else in the family courting or getting to know anyone? If you can’t answer, that’s fine. I completely understand. Just please know that I’m not asking out of a desire to start rumors or anything. I genuinely love and care for this family and my number one wish is to get the opportunity to meet them someday and tell them how much they mean to me! :)