Tatum

I think Dawn is getting heat because she works for Bethany. A lot of people have grumbled that Bethany is pretty unethical. It's not impossible that off camera Dawn was spinning some fantasy to C&T but saying she misled them simply C&T are delusional about Carly is unfair, in my opinion. C&T are delusional about a LOT of things in their lives, it's not a stretch that they would be about Carly as well. Also, people tend to forget that Tyler had NO interest in raising Carly at the time. It wasn't even a question. That doesn't mean he wasn't legitimately emotional during the hand off but there was never even an internal struggle with him about placing Carly for adoption. Dawn did not need to sell him a bill of goods. Cate was more attached and had Tyler been willing to consider keeping Carly I am sure she would have done so, but she wanted to keep Tyler happy more.

I'm just curious- why do you think this? I keep reading about how Dawn lied or finessed the truth- but on what basis? I know Bethany as an organization has come under fire, but what did Dawn specifically do? The conversations she had with C&T that we were privy to were not misleading in any way. C&T never indicated they were promised anything either.

I read comments over and over on here about how Dawn misled C&T or made them think they'd be more involved in Carly's life than what what Brandon and Teresa were prepared to offer. I've watched the episode multiple times. There is zero evidence of Dawn saying anything of the sort. I can't swear that she never said anything off camera, but there is nothing to suggest she did. Cate and Tyler were completely respectful of B&T in the beginning and the four had a warm relationship. At no point during the first season of TM did C&T indicate they felt lied to or misled about what open adoption means. It was only after C&T turned into boundary crushing jerks that B&T pulled back. The only people to blame here are C&T.

The conversations Dawn had with C&T that were filmed (I guess I can't speak to what wasn't filmed) did not in any way show Dawn misleading C&T. She asked them specifically what kind of relationship C&T thought they would have with Carly's family, and all Cate said was she'd like to be able to call "sometimes" and she wanted to see "pitchers". Tyler did not express any wishes at all. I also feel that Dawn was pretty honest with them about the difficulty of giving up a child for adoption. Bethany has come under a lot of accusations, and generally, where there is smoke, there's fire, but Dawn specifically was never shown doing anything morally or ethically questionable. None of the parties involved had any way of knowing this show would take off and film for 10+ years and that Cate and Tyler would morph from two sweet, well meaning teenagers to two self absorbed, entitled, delusional assholes.

Omg god, Larry. No, I didn't say Maci put things in Bentley's head, I said a 12 year old boy can be manipulated, which is true. Manipulated by who and how, LARRY? Don't make a bunch of pointed accusations and then try and back down when you're called on it and say you're just saying how things can be. And Jen you are not "caught" in the middle. You are firmly planting your feet in the middle, and some time not that far off that is going to cost you Bentley. These two schmucks actually make me feel sorry for Maci. There really is no way for her to win in this scenario, and if she did manage to get them fired from the show, I don't blame her one bit.

Wow I did not catch that Mary's boytoy was Theresa's ex. Super gross. Regardless, believe that Mary killed the swim coach. As far as how Theresa "turned"- I think we are supposed to gather it was a perfect storm- maybe she had murderous tendencies already, but she was molested/raped by her swim coach, she tried to tell her mother and was brushed off (I don't believe she told her mother about the sex abuse but may have felt based on how her mother responded to everything else she wouldn't be sympathetic), and she met Kit at an impressionable age and he was clearly into at least talking about killing young, overachieving blond girls, if not actually doing it. How much he did and how much Theresa did was never made clear. She said she did everything, but that could be in about any context (as far as just being about Amy Walker vs all the other girls, or maybe she meant she was involved in everything with Kit). Really, I strongly suspect the original series was revamped a few times and the original version showed a much darker Emma/Karen and they cleaned it up to make the main character have a heart of gold who just really trusts the wrong people. I think the egg story was backed into- the writers wanted the psychiatrist involved in something sinister involving young women, and they probably felt that an underage prostitution ring/human trafficking or black market adoption was too overdone, so they settled on illegal egg harvesting. As far as taxidermy I have no idea what that was about, and I bet the writers couldn't say either. I also think Emma was supposed to be closer to the psychiatrist and be more shocked by his involvement in the something sinister (as was the audience), but they kind of gave that up and made him super creepy and boundary crossing from his first scene.

That's just it. She can research what she's actually interested in. I think this comes down to indifference, not ignorance. Reading about insurance plans is boring. Spending money each month on premiums instead of those tacky manicures and trips to Great Wolf Lodge is not fun. She probably figures she may never need it, so why not wait until she actually does before she does any work or parts with any cash. If she can't pay the bill at that time, she just won't.

I know!! Also, "I believed the only way to be covered was under your parents or your spouse"...are you fucking kidding me Leah? Do you live in 1860? Although I guess if someone refuses to get a job and is too old to be covered under their parents, then a spouse IS the only way you're going to get medical insurance.

Wow. That's all I got.

Are we talking about Post Partum Depression or Paycheck Protection Program???

The effect though, was minimal, because Evan just rolled his eyes like Wes was being such a petulant brat, and all the sheeple on both teams went along with it because JEK was still the "in crowd". Everyone was happy to hang Veronica out to dry as the evil bitch who pushed Tonya too far and were happy enough to forget how much JEK bullied and humiliated her up to that point.

Totally agree. Not defending him because a bully is a bully, regardless of motivation, but their motivations were different. Kenny did it, in my opinion, because that's what he had to do/be in order to fit in. Evan did it (in my opinion) because he's malicious and enjoys demeaning and humiliating people, particularly emotionally disturbed women.

I felt so sorry for Evelyn on The Island, but she really isn't a very nice person. Much like Kenny on the beginning of Fresh Meat II, when she's the outsider she seems like a decent person, an underdog you can root for, and the minute she's part of the majority she turns into a complete asshole. I rewatched the scene with Big E, and Evan and CT are definitely the biggest abusers, both screaming in his face telling him to move. Kenny and Adam are off on the sidelines rolling their eyes and largely unsympathetic, but at least they're not in his face. At one point, Evan is hollering at Eric, and CT actually pushes him out of the way and tells Evan he's making it worse, and to encourage Eric. I thought that was a moment of kindness on CT's part, but a scene later CT is physically dragging Eric while screaming at him and yelling at Brad for trying to defend him. Even without the later allegations, I think there is plenty of evidence that Evan had a cruel streak a mile wide. He likes to play the nice guy, but I think he's really an awful person, and that's only going off what we were shown on TV.

Agreed, it was nice seeing Brad stick up for Big E. I think he was sincerely floored how little anyone else cared about the fact that Big E was not okay.

Just watched this finale and what a group of assholes. And Evan, in true form, is screaming at Big E and then once he realizes what a dick he's going to look like, tries to give a big inspirational speech about how Big E just needs to focus on getting better and they'll finish the race for him. Ev is actually the biggest asshole of the group though when she snots, he deceived us into thinking he could handle this. Shut the fuck up, Ev, that's not why he stayed. You had one chance to eliminate him, and you blew it because you were all afraid his size advantage would allow him to beat Evan in an elimination round. You should have risked it, but none of the guys were willing to stick their asses on the line to get rid of him. The split between the teams was massively lopsided the entire game and you didn't hear the rookies whining about how unfair it was. Also, it was $300,000- split ten freaking ways. After taxes, that's not that much cash, certainly not enough to appear on TV bitching that the dry heaving, convulsing guy on the ground cost you money.

Yeah over on the TM2 threads we are still waiting for Leah's 'the truth will come out' to happen and it's been 5 years. "There's so much I could say right now" = "I've got nothing and don't want to admit it".

We all know the truth. Ryan is a lazy, selfish, worthless individual with a drug addiction (his addiction did not make him worthless; that is incidental to his many character flaws), Larry and Jen are enablers deeply in denial to the point where they are now culpable themselves in the situation, Mac is a fame hungry wanna be star fucker who could not have picked a worse "star" to hitch her chin-less wagon to and is too stubborn to admit defeat-the list goes on and on. I can't stand Maci, but them continuing to rag on her only makes themselves look even worse and Maci more sympathetic in comparison. At this point I consider them being fired as a mercy killing. I just feel really bad for the kids Mac and Ryan brought into this mess. Ryan should have gotten a vasectomy after Bentley.

Haha, Oh Wes. Maybe he's a decent guy in real life but his behavior on Fresh Meat II was sleazier (only in regards to making promises to people then reneging) than anything JEK did. When Kenny is shocked at how cavalierly you are treating people, you know you've hit a new low. Also, watching Kenny on FM2- for all his bragging about how beautiful he is, and how "retarded" everyone else is, it was pretty obvious he was super insecure and is desperate for people to like him. That doesn't excuse his horrific behavior (even just onscreen), but I definitely saw a different side to him when he wasn't with Johnny and Evan.

Oh you're right, I watched both the second duel and FM2 recently, but all my commentary was in regards to FM2.

I just finished rewatching the 2nd Duel, which I skipped the first time around. Kenny by himself is almost bearable, and Ev and Wes were so obnoxious about having the "upper hand" that I found myself thinking Kenny was the less annoying (ignoring anything that had already happened offscreen at that point, obviously what Kenny has been accused of doing is worse than anything Wes or Ev have done onscreen) of the two sides. Also, Wes has no loyalty at all to anyone. And I don't believe for one second Ev and Wes were playing up the villain angle, I think they are sincerely that obnoxious and delusional about their own intelligence levels. Normally I don't approve of Teege scolding the cast members, since it's usually along the lines of berating them for not being willing to drink a vat of pig's blood or run 6 miles on a sprained ankle, but I LOVED Teege calling out Ev's poor sportsmanship every time she blamed her partner for their losses. I loved him saying, as she's stomping past him in a huff, wow, I've never seen a 4 year old on this challenge. Wes, Ev, and Kenny had a LOT of competition for annoying cast members though this season. I forgot this was the season that introduced us to Laurel "Let me ask you point blank why you think I'm an asshole and then get huffy when you tell me", and Theresa "I'm the hottest girl in the room and everyone is jealous of me". Oh, and Sarah "Kenny is still my god, but I'll hook up with his fatter, uglier, and even less articulate third cousin Vinny as a consolation prize". Gross. I did snicker when Ev correctly ascertained that Sarah only picked him because she wanted to fuck him. Which, ew (both for wanting to fuck him and for picking him for that reason. I feel like almost all the second fresh meat cast were sexually harassed by their veteran partners. It was pretty gross).

Um, what? What abilities might these be? Also, from what I keep reading she's already the most boring segment there is. Is she under the impression people are going to be riveted by watching her trying to turn herself into the Face/Spokesperson of a medical condition for which there is serious doubt she even has? I can't believe this show is still on.

Yes, even ignoring the whole (alleged) sexual assault, that season was incredibly hard to watch. JEK's constant "pranks" on the female castmates with no repercussions, the insane bullying of Tonya and Katie- remember one of the guys put a USED PLUNGER in Katie's BED- and then laughed as she freaked out- I cannot believe BMP did not step in sooner. Even for 2009 standards, they were incredibly negligent. I still believe that even if Tonya wasn't raped (the popular theory on Reddit is that K and E pantomimed inserting a toothbrush into her exposed vagina without actually inserting it), the lawyers that viewed the footage told BMP to cut Tonya a big check to make the mess go away and hope to run out the statute of limitations on any other unreported misconduct or sex crime. Pure speculation, but that's always what I've thought.

You mean you forgot something that was mentioned in passing once, and seemingly retconned a few episodes later? No way! The writers really wasted all the talent they had by not figuring out a straightforward story line (I don't mean they had to tell it in chronological order, but they still had to figure out a way to tell it so it could be interpreted in a chronological order and retain some semblance of logic). The amount of content they had could have filled 3 seasons and instead they tried to do everything and completed nothing.

Well, no, I don't think that's true- I don't possibly see how. I mean, I think you're right, that's what the show is trying to say, but it doesn't make any sense. Also: Unbelievably sloppy writing. I understand that when you tell a story in out of order flashbacks it may take awhile to piece it together, but this to me really reads like the writers didn't even flesh out what happened, and are just making it up as they go along without regard to these flashbacks conflicting each other.

Yes, but I think they should have intertwined them a little differently. Mary hiring/blackmailing John into finding Karen was a pretty ridiculous ask- while John was able to do it, I do not believe Mary had any reason to think he would have been able to- the guy worked a slew of menial jobs, and his ability to rape women was more related to his physical proximity to them while their guard was down than the expert manipulation he demonstrated later in the series. On top of that, Mary threatened him by exposing him if he didn't do as she wished...um, hi, he's a convicted rapist, he'll have to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life, she's not telling anybody anything that isn't public information. Also, Mary left a paper trail a mile wide when she engaged him- I understand the audience is supposed to realize she's unraveling to the point where logic, morals, and ethics are no more for her, but using her foundation to fund this witch hunt would have major tax implications, if not legal ones, and even she would have used a little more discretion. The whole thing just seemed like really sloppy writing. Really, it would have made a lot more sense if Mary simply hired a private investigator who happened to be a rapist (not convicted) who was trying to reform and ended up escalating into something worse. I understand the show is trying to demonstrate just how monstrous Mary has become, but she was plenty loathsome without the addition of her strong arming a convicted rapist into tracking a woman down. That was just extraneous.