stagmania

Before I get into nitpicking, I just want to say I really enjoyed that episode. I was spoiled so I knew not to expect any major events, and I really enjoyed most of the character interactions. Even the parts I expected to be annoying played better and with more nuance than I anticipated. This was an A+ dragon episode, but seriously - where the eff is Ghost?

Oh man, Jon is absolutely going to die.

Just catching up on leaks and mostly I'm frustrated that the Sansa vs. Jon stuff is continuing into the new season. We did this already, it was annoying and largely nonsensical and I would not like to do it again with so little time left to spare. Especially since it doesn't seem to matter what Jon does to indicate his respect for her, she continues to treat him the same.

The season finale was reportedly just announced as 80 minutes, as well.

Don’t really agree with this - there has been a ton of development, particularly in the family structures. Petra, Rafael and Jane went through a lot as a unit, as you alluded to, as did the Villanueva women. And Jane and Raf had a lot going on in their personal relationship too, moving from co-parents to best friends to lovers to a committed relationship while Jane worked through her grief and moved on. This is the thing - I saw Michael die. It was the real Michael, taking his exam with his lunchbox after saying goodbye to Jane at their home. I saw him collapse and then I saw Jane do the same. I saw her rage and cry and grieve and figure out how to be happy again. To tell me that it wasn’t real, that it was some clone whose heart gave out, or Michael had his body switched and left Jane alone to cope, or whatever other explanation they can dream up, it just doesn’t work. It’s not a fun surprise to undercut all that amazing character work. The thing I’ve always loved about JtV is that while it plays with telenovela tropes, it takes its characters seriously and treats them with respect. This feels like a misstep on that front.

I know this is a telenovela and this was always a possibility, but I really hate that they did this. Everything about this aspect of the story - Michael’s death, the aftermath, Jane’s grief and healing process and slow path to renewed happiness- was so well done, and the emotions underlying it always felt true and complicated and earned. This just feels like they have shit all over that.

This is fair, but I guess it didn’t feel like the show really hit this point strong enough in the narrative. It was framed as though Frank was the big obstacle for Roy, and the thing he had to “finish.” So once Frank was gone, it didn’t really feel right to me that Roy was going to continue living his life isolated and alone.

I was on quite the roller coaster with this show. At first I resented all the time spent on Frank and the cliche outlaw stuff, and wanted more time with the ladies. Then I began to appreciate the way the two story threads came together and got seriously invested in a few characters and relationships. And then I was pretty disappointed with how it all ended. I agree with much of what’s been said here, and I’ll add that what left me unsatisfied is that I didn’t feel like any characters got a real arc that tracked emotionally beginning to end. Whitey dies and his story with Louise goes nowhere. Bill goes wandering for half the show and accomplishes and learns nothing. Mary (Maggie?) gets back together with her girlfriend but we don’t even see them have a real conversation. And Roy and Alice, two traumatized, lonely people, one in search of a family and one reluctant to let anyone in, make a connection and seem to realize they fit together and offer what the other needs. They eliminate the big bad obstacle, Alice is ready to sell the ranch and leave, Roy has a big bag of money and an invitation to California, and instead of setting off together they just go their separate ways because ...it’s a western and it has to end with a man alone on a horse? I honestly don’t know, that made zero sense to me. Am I supposed to be rooting for Alice to marry Bill? Because if I was the show did not do the work to convince me that’s a good ending for her. I wanted her and Truckee to have Roy, which is what I thought the show spent 7 episodes building to, so I guess I missed something. I don’t think this is getting a second season, so I guess I’ll just have to rewrite the endings in my head.

So your complaint is that you did not see him literally bend his knee? He was kind of laid up in bed at the time.

Yeah, I'm not disputing that. The post you quoted was in response to a poster casting judgment on other viewers for expressing anything other than disgust at the pairing.

Wait, this is not correct. Jon did swear an oath to her, as the show has reiterated multiple times-in their scene on the boat, in his letter to Sansa, and again in front of all the rulers of Westeros. Just because they didn't do a scene with a formal ceremony doesn't mean it didn't happen. It's called exposition and it's a tool used to avoid repetitive or unnecessary scenes. Theories about where the overarching narrative is going (i.e. epic love story vs tragedy vs awkward incest baby pickle) have nothing to do with Jon's motivations as a character. He is clearly falling for Daenerys. There is absolutely no time for this, so nope. I don't think anyone new will be introduced in the final six episodes (except probably a whole bunch of redshirts to die in battle scenes). I am honestly torn between amusement and anger at the writers' obsession with having all the characters talk of nothing but their fathers. They had other family members that mattered! The Starks especially should be talking about their dead siblings, but instead it's all Ned all the time. I truly believe he will never finish the books, and watching this season has made me really sad about that. I grew incredibly frustrated with his last two books, but the show is bungling the story badly, and it shouldn't be the final/only word on how it all ends for these characters. I haven't really concluded anything one way or the other. But if they are intending for Jon/Daenerys to be a big romance, that sex scene was a joke.

So that sex scene was a total romance fail, but I think it's still fairly obvious that Daenerys is going to get pregnant. Which seems to suggest one of Jon's big torments next season will be finding out and then having to choose between marrying his aunt or letting his child be born a bastard, on top of dealing with his feelings about his true parents and claim to the throne. And Daenerys will of course fiercely protect the baby she never thought she could have, and be wary of Jon trying to take the throne. So this may actually be a set up for them to be working together but not trusting/feeling comfortable with each other as they fight off the Night King.

Nothing Bran has done this season has made any sense to me.

Please spare us the moralizing about a show that has featured all manner of physical and sexual violence and depravity from the very beginning.

He looked distractingly like Viserys, which was an odd choice. If I didn't know better I'd think it was the same actor. Exactly-we didn't even get to see their first kiss, and that scene was not what I would call passionate. Makes me wonder whether they're just very bad at this, or this story isn't going where I think it is. They would never kill him offscreen.

Definitely a much quieter episode this week. I have to admit that it dragged for me in parts. Too much standing around talking and standing around waiting for talking to start. I can tell I'm just all the way over Cersei because I was bored as hell during her big scenes with Tyrion and Jaime, which I know objectively featured some top notch acting. The illogic of this plot to keep her around for the final season has just ruined it for me; I can't really engage with the emotions of it. And Jaime is abandoning her way too late for it to be meaningful for me. She blew up the sept and caused their son to commit suicide, but *this* is what did it? Nah. I know this will probably be a point of contention, but to me this episode made it clear that Sansa and Arya's fighting last week was sincere. Sansa didn't catch on to Littlefinger's manipulation until the end of their first scene tonight-when he made the absurd insinuation that Arya wants to be Lady of Winterfell. That's what snapped Sansa out of it. He doesn't know Arya and he miscalculated. Kind of love that this was his downfall. And however dumb this plot was, I'm happy Sansa and Arya are back on the same side and I'm not holding the bad writing against either character. Also found the Jon/Daenerys sex scene (and the Rhaegar/Lyanna reveal) very underwhelming. All that build up, for an awkward 10 seconds with creepy Tyrion standing outside. Why did I ever let myself believe this show might be interested in depicting a serious romance?

Agree, it's absolutely gorgeous. Reading through that outline, I'm really hoping some key details and nuance have been left out in the descriptions of some of those scenes.

Really interesting music analysis and hints that line up pretty well with what we know about the finale.

Pretty awesome costume analysis for all the ladies from Tom and Lorenzo here.

Yeah, this is what I meant by "despite not explaining the legalities". They're never going to explain it to this granular level (because seriously who cares?), but they've decided she's not married to Tyrion.

She is Ramsey Bolton's widow. They are not still married. The show has made that pretty clear, despite not explaining the legalities.

They are no longer married. And I can't imagine Sansa willingly tying herself to a Lannister ever again. 100%, the anvils are everywhere. He will have some big heroic redemption moment where he overcomes his fear of fire to save someone or help defeat the white walkers.

Brienne hasn't had all that much of substance to do this season. I've definitely seen no evidence of this arc.

Yeah, let's just call this one an agree to disagree.

Eh, that's a copout for people too lazy to get their narrative in order. A good story offers both the emotional experience and a plot with character motivations that make sense.