stagmania

Yes, and that was the low point of her character journey, so subjecting her to another inappropriate relationship seems counter to her story trajectory. There is absolutely nothing in the show to indicate Sansa held the Hound in any particular regard or has thought about him at all since her escape from King's Landing. It would be completely out of left field. I think the Hound is still on the show because he's a fan favorite and has good potential for a redemption arc. I'm all for that, I just don't think it needs to have anything to do with Sansa.

I know a lot of these kinds of viewers-I would wager that they are the vast majority of the audience. They will just go with whatever the show tells them, probably won't bother thinking through the details, and won't make all the connections anyway. My friend and I were discussing the other day that the show could probably do the full R+L=J reveal, and as long as a character doesn't explicitly say "Hey Jon, you fucked your aunt", a lot of the audience wouldn't even realize incest is at play. It would make no sense for show Sansa and the Hound to end up together, and would in fact probably lead to a lot of outcry because it's a pretty gross and inappropriate idea given his role in Sansa's imprisonment, their age disparity, their relative status in society, etc. In the books, you can at least say there's more of a foundation for it (though tbf I still think it's gross).

If they're disappointing, I will never forgive this show. I've waited so long (I think they're going to make us wait until season 8).

Part of the fun of the forums is to see which details people get super hung up on, spin a bunch of theories around-and then promptly forget when the show never mentions them again. Ooh, good catch on the half bun. Their clothing is very similar too, in style and silhouette. I'm really going to lose it when they finally have their reunion. I never thought she came close to being killed. She never seemed in danger of falling off Drogon, and Jaime's spear didn't even get near her before Drogon blasted him.

That they're going to be romantically involved. I don't think it says anything about the chances of success for such a union (I tend to think every romance on this show is doomed). Interesting theory about one killing the other, though. Inadvertently or otherwise.

Saw an interesting analysis of the music that played in the cave scene with Dany and Jon. Apparently, it's a combination of the Dany/Drogo and the Jon/Ygritte love themes. You can't say they aren't telegraphing it very clearly.

I don't think it's about reveals; book readers have figured all that stuff out, anyway. I think it's about the story playing out in a different format before he got to do it in his. Not only did we see Jon come back to life and R+L=J get confirmed, but we saw Dany name Tyrion her hand and sail for Westeros, Arya decide not to be no one after all and come home, Jon end his watch and reclaim Winterfell, Bran become the Three-Eyed Raven, Cersei blow up the sept and seize King's Landing. These are huge, huge story developments, culminations of character arcs that GRRM carefully, painstakingly built to over decades. And now someone else did them first.

Ha! Definitely not a recommendation to read those books, just a comparable author situation. And yeah, this is obviously different in that buddy did it to himself. But in the early seasons he seemed confident that he'd finish before they lapped him. Know thyself, George.

Completely with you. If he ever drops off a finished manuscript for Winds we'll know right away, because the publishers are gonna freak. Here's my armchair psych analysis. Are you familiar with what happened to Stephanie Meyer and her leaked manuscript? She was working on another book in the Twilight universe and hackers got to it about halfway through and published it. She was so disillusioned to see her story spoiled that she abandoned the project. I think we're seeing something similar going on here with GRRM. The show beat him to the punch and it's ruined it for him. Before s5/6, I'd always hear that he was working on Winds slowly but surely, figuring it out and trying to get through his block. Once the show started passing him and making their big reveals on plots he hadn't gotten to, those whispers went away. In the last couple years, it seems he's turned his attention to side projects in the wider universe, something that is still wholly his because the show hasn't bothered with more than a fraction of his world building. I think that's where his attention will stay.

He was there to discuss the 4 prequels he has in the works. :/

That's probably why they've now resorted to doxxing cast members.

There's an easy to find summary of the episode on youtube that purports to come from the leak. I don't follow the leaks as closely as some here, so I can't say whether it's a trusted source.

Have people seen the episode 5 leaks? Hackers posted the script.

Maybe it's just me, but I find the prospect of Dany suddenly deciding she loves Jorah more gross than the idea of her ending up with Jon. Assuming she ends up with anyone at all. This show is not so big with the romance. The dragon was clearly still alive and thus capable of breathing fire. Seemed pretty stupid to charge it to me, and apparently the show agrees since the whole scene was narrated by Tyrion calling him an idiot. I'm not sure the show will stick to the exact ending GRRM envisioned. They've changed so much already; I could easily see them letting some fan favorites live to go out on a nice note. This calls to mind all the times in the early seasons when we saw rulers in Kings Landing ignore the pleas of the Nights Watch for more men, supplies and support to man the Wall. It was demonstrative of how short-sighted they were as leaders, and I'm hoping Dany will take a different path.

This all grows out of the show's ultraweird and still unexplained decision to mostly forget that Jon was resurrected, show no reaction to it from him or other characters, or examine what it means in any meaningful way. It's infuriating. For what's it worth: I have a friend who works for his publisher. I wouldn't hold out hope for him ever finishing this series, but he will probably keep churning out prequels and other related stories in the universe, so maybe you can get your prose fix that way.

Here's my biggest issue with this story: they did it so lazily, and didn't honor the characters with their choices. I'm not opposed to a little romantic pain, especially in an epic like this. If they wanted to tell a story about Meera supporting and protecting Bran and falling for him along the way, and Bran coming to care deeply for Meera and seeing possibilities there, only for his transformation into a tree to abruptly change him and their relationship, I'd be all for it. Give me the unrequited love tragedy. But that's not really what they did. Bran and Meera's relationship never really got fleshed out or progressed, Bran's sudden personality change didn't track with the actual timeline of events or develop at all naturally, and there was hardly a deep relationship there for us to feel the pain of severing. If anything, it came across as minor one-way pining and then Meera being offended to be brushed off without a proper thank you. It's disappointing when it's so easy to see how it could've been much better with some small tweaks and comparable screentime. What a waste. I confess I have no idea what they're doing with Davos this season. The interactions with Missandei have been bizarre and unfocused. Sansa is essentially a rorschach test for the audience. People see what they want based on how they choose to view her character, and the relatively inscrutable acting choices make it really easy to project any emotion you'd like. This is why I find the endless debates about her feelings and reactions pretty pointless. Oh, that's an interesting theory. I didn't really catch anything like that, but I'll have to rewatch. Chemistry is highly subjective, so I won't say that anyone is wrong to think it's better or worse. But for me, I'm still not really feeling it. There's a distinct lack of magnetism between them; I can tell that I'm supposed to think they're hot for each other, but it's mostly the cues around them (dark cave, close proximity, low talking, other characters making eyes or comments) conveying that rather than any energy they're generating.

...I'm confused about what this has to do with Drogon's current condition, which is what I was talking about. I just found it distracting because it didn't make sense that he was there. Yeah, I'm not saying it wasn't interesting. Just didn't really hit me emotionally.

What a sad end to her sad arc. #JusticeForMeera It played to me like Drogon was fine, just totally caught off guard by the spear. Probably the first time he's ever been hurt. It was Bronn, right? He dove to knock him into the water when he saw Drogon was about to blow. Seems clear they're gonna go there.

Very solid episode (but too short!). The opening of that battle with Dany riding in on Drogon and the Dothraki horse riders was something else. Just fucking cool. Also great that they showed us neither Bronn nor Jaime could really win head on against a Dothraki. And Tyrion being there made absolutely no sense. He came along to stand on a hill and make sad faces? I think Dany should chill on the "bend the knee" stuff with Jon. The North will follow her if she actually shows up and fights for them and wins. Girl needs to earn it, especially given that Jon has a front row seat to her making a lot of bad calls against Cersei. Absolutely loved the Arya/Brienne scene. A bit of much needed fun, and I loved Sansa and Littlefinger watching and reacting. Her probably wondering what the hell her sister's been getting up to, and him recognizing that Arya is a threat. The problem with Sansa being the main Stark getting to do all the reunion scenes is that she wasn't close to any of her siblings, so they don't really resonate much. The reunion with Jon was still the most affecting to me, but that was because it was the first, not because of their relationship. I'm holding out hope that Arya/Jon, if it ever comes, will be the one that inspires real feeling.

Yeah, I was being facetious. But thanks for the review of things I know!

@Francie I really like that explanation about Tyrion being hung up on his Tywin issues without realizing it. I just hope the show will acknowledge that he's making bad decisions at some point, because right now it just seems like a character sacrifice to make Cersei unbeatable and Dany an underdog.

If that was the case, Tyrion should have informed his queen of how he got him to come and warned her that Jon wouldn't be expecting to bend the knee.

This is really interesting to think about. All of the Starks have been through traumas, but they've responded so differently. Jon is still Jon, and you'd hardly know he's a zombie. Sansa is less trusting and far more cynical, but she's managed to stay tethered to the person she was before and still cares about many of the same things. Arya has turned herself into a killer, flattened her empathy and is barely hanging on to who she was. Bran is gone for good. What does their relative ability to maintain their core selves say about each of them? I definitely believe Ned loved Jon, but there was a distance there. Part of that may have been the cover story-he said Jon was a bastard, which caused a schism with his wife, which reverberated through family dynamics. But I wonder if it was also because he didn't know what to make of Jon, who is a Targaryen and the product of his sister's betrayal. Lyanna (presumably) chose to run away with Rhaegar and thus started a war, and Jon is the reminder of that choice that brought about so much suffering. Ned had to carry that secret for the rest of his life and Jon was the ultimate representation of that burden. It may account for some weariness or hesitation in their relationship. Yes, Tyrion is proving to be an awful hand. The problem is that I don't think the show is trying to make him an awful hand-the writing is just really sloppy. At this point I'd welcome a reveal that he's low key sabotaging her for his family, just so his choices would make more sense. Yes, thank you. Show Sansa is a very inconsistently written character, and therefore one can find plenty of evidence to support any given claim about her, and the endless arguments are so tiresome. Those who take pleasure in never-ending circular debates, please take it there and leave the other threads in peace.

I think he had something more like being a ranger in mind, Uncle Benjen style. Not nearly the same thing.

Well, he was entirely raised by Ned and more driven than his siblings to prove himself a good son thanks to his bastard status, so him being the most like Ned tracks for me. As far as the romance factor, it doesn't bother me because Dany and Jon are adults who don't know each other at all. Any ick factor there for me would be much more about a familial bond, and they have none, unlike Jaime and Cersei. And in this universe, finding out that they share a bloodline, but not too closely, won't be much of an obstacle. I don't know, I just don't feel the yuck on this one. Maybe I'll feel differently as it develops. Completely agree with this. Jon is proud of being Ned's son. And I'm sure he wants nothing to do with being the Targaryen heir.