stagmania

How does that preclude him from being a liar? He lies all the time when he thinks it's in service of his cause or building his church-we've seen it. What does this mean? Lindelof is nothing like Kevin Sr. (there are lots of interviews with him that you can read/listen to). And I don't think you can call a mega successful showrunner "scorned" just because some Lost fans are still mad. He's currently running the most critically acclaimed show on the most critically acclaimed network on television. Buddy is doing just fine.

I'm pretty sure that it was a copy of only part of the book (remember, Matt lies constantly, so no surprise if copies of parts of it have been made), and Matt probably sent it before Kevin and Nora got the original copy. But it does seem that the second phone conversation came after Kevin Jr found out, because Matt seemed eager to get it back. I liked it, too. It always takes me a little bit to process the single character showcase episodes. Sometimes I resent them in the moment because it means it's another week until I get to see anyone else. But they always hold up well as part of the complete season. They're definitely in Australia for real.

I do hope they offer some in-universe explanation for this, because I don't think simply pretending racism doesn't exist (in a world that by design closely mirrors our own) is the way to go. I appreciate that they wanted a more diverse cast, but they should make an attempt to incorporate that decision into the mythology of the show. Side note: One of my posts appears to have mysteriously disappeared from this thread. Anyone else have this issue?

Something was niggling at my memory and now I've placed it: when Sr was talking about taking the hallucinogens in the hotel in Perth-we saw that. In International Assassin, Jr sees him through the TV set. So Sr made a real connection with Jr while he was in whatever that place was-afterlife, purgatory, dream dimension. A pretty strong hint that the Kevins are not merely delusional and something bigger is going on here.

Oof. Do you think the writers kept a going list of the most deeply traumatic departure scenarios they could dream up? Five children wasting away while their mother assumes they're already gone is a hard one to top. Glad to have a better understanding of what's being going on with Kevin, Sr. And now Jr is unwittingly headed right into this mess.

I think that's exactly the point-to keep reminding us forcefully that this is not some far off future world-it's the world we live in right now. I mean, it's only been three months with the current American administration, and how many norms have already fallen? How many previously unthinkable things have already become routine?

I've seen some interesting commentary about race in this universe. In the book, black women were shipped off to the colonies, but my understanding is that they've changed that on the show in order to have a more diverse cast. While I think it's great that they wanted to avoid a lily white universe, it seems that instead of making a significant change to the world-building and devising an alternate explanation for why women of all races are handmaidens, they're just ignoring it and going with a "color-blind" casting approach. That's problematic on its own, because it necessitates ignoring structural and systemic racism in a universe that is supposed to closely mimic our own. I wonder if this will be addressed in the show at some point.

This is a good analogy. When I was first watching Buffy back in the day, I really resented Dawn's sudden presence and hated how she changed the whole focus of the show and altered Buffy's character so much. Over time, though, season 5 has become a favorite, and I grew to really appreciate what they accomplished with that arc. Hopefully the story with Paige will come together in the same way. I agree with this, because my goodness, I am bored to tears every time we have to see Stan at work these days. The FBI corner of the show was never my favorite, but it used to be much better tied in and more compelling to watch. I could not care less about this thing Stan is doing with the new woman. Don't forget that Gabriel also spoke with Elizabeth about Paige, and told her nothing of the sort. I think she was taken aback to hear that he'd said such different things to each of them, and not sure what to think about it.

I've been wandering around my apartment for the last half hour, trying to calm my roiling stomach and wiping away occasional tears. I don't think I've ever responded to a show this viscerally before. I can't even pinpoint which moments hit me the hardest; it was all devastating and terrifying. And yes, the worst part is that it all feels so plausible, and not nearly far enough removed from our current reality. The flashback scenes especially, seeing how easily and quickly things slid into the unimaginable while people weren't paying attention. I won't be sleeping easy tonight.

@Razzberry it's a picture of his dead body on a slab at the morgue. She was proving that he died rather than departed.

Yeah I think they're both very aware of their mutual feelings on this, and it was a subtext running underneath their bedroom convo. Elizabeth was pushing because she knew Philip didn't really give Deirdre his best shot and absolutely could fix it, and his defensiveness was a pretty clear indicator that he knew it, too. And once he decided to do something about it, he got the situation back under control pretty easily. They may not want to do it anymore, but they are both very good at this work.

I've noticed this, too-she's getting quieter and quieter. Seems like a reflection of both her simmering displeasure with the work and how hard it is for her to open herself up. What I don't get about this plan is that it's just so imprecise. They're relying on three different people reacting in particular ways that will cascade into the result they want. Seems pretty unlikely.

I was a little bit delighted that he figured out being married was the trick to making her comfortable. That whole plot was hilarious. Not everyone wants a partner; Deirdre is clearly pretty content with her life and wants nothing more from a relationship than sex. I don't see what her looks have to do with it. I thought it was interesting that she mentioned wanting to be a doctor in the third world. It really underlines how Elizabeth thinks of her work-as a sacrifice and service that is ultimately rooted in good. It seems to me that she wants Paige to find the same kind of purpose, but that doesn't have to mean working for the KGB.

Lindelof actually goes into that in the interview I mentioned. In a nutshell: they liked the idea of the entire cast of some obscure sitcom departing and having that be a running background gag, and one of the writers came up with Perfect Strangers because her husband mentioned he used to love it and it worked as an offbeat choice. From there they decided it would be more interesting if one of the cast faked his departure, so they built that in. Then when they were breaking this Nora story they realized it would work to tie it into the Mark-Linn Baker thing. The writers room of this show sounds pretty interesting. They have a good balance between letting ideas develop organically over time and planning ahead to make sure things come together.

If anyone's interested in some more context about this season, Damon Lindelof did an interview with The Watch podcast. He specifically gave some info about that Nora scene from the end of the premiere.

I think there was also an element of self-punishment involved. She was feeling stupid and weak and ashamed. He's very protective of Christine, so I'm not too surprised he was harsh about it. He also doesn't seem that invested in Nora and Kevin's relationship, unlike Jill. He wasn't part of their whole journey to become a family. Pretty sure that was a one time song replacement to go along with the Perfect Strangers theme of the episode. It makes you wonder if he has to go into hiding to get away from all these worshippers, which I guess adds a level of ambiguity to Sarah's answer in that future time. Maybe she really is separated from Kevin, or maybe she's protecting him. Matt and crew are doing him no favors. Seemed like the universe trying to tell her not to do the foolish things she was doing.

Wow, what an episode. Poor, poor Nora. And Kevin. It was brutal to see them sitting on the bed together, both so obviously damaged and not okay, trying to convince themselves they're happy. I don't know why it never occurred to me that Christine came back for Lily. It's the most logical explanation, especially once Tommy was back in the fold and able to facilitate a reunion. And I was so happy to see Erika seemingly doing so well. I was very impressed with the guy from Perfect Strangers. Just a great scene with him, and what a good sport to go along with the mythology of the show and play a darkest timeline version of himself. Looks like the Australia adventure begins next week. I wonder how far the Book of Kevin has already spread. Is it just Sr spreading the good word, or is there a second copy floating around?

The show has doled out little tidbits about their history and feelings of home so sparingly. I think they want the audience to form our own impressions of who they are and why, and do the work to understand them without being spoon fed. The restraint is admirable, if sometimes personally frustrating. They really do follow the edict of show, don't tell when it comes to their characters. I think the costuming is the thing I miss most about that show. They were just operating on another level.

They're not encouraging her to take up that kind of work; Paige is not meant to be an agent like them. She's an actual American who they would want to work her way into a government job. More like Martha.

In fact, a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude playing MANY dudes! When you stop and think about it, you really have to marvel at how incredibly talented Matthew Rhys and Keri Russell are, and how very much this show wouldn't work if they were anything less.

LOL that is absolutely not true. It's basically what these forums are for, whether you love the show or not. Revisit some of the old threads if you want proof. I suspect he absolutely will not catch a break, because this is all leading to the big break. Philip's reluctance to blow up their life is about more than making Elizabeth happy. It's his life, too. His home, his kids, his work that he's dedicated his entire existence to and that gave purpose to a life previously defined by loneliness, trauma, and poverty. It's overly simplistic to attribute his complicated feelings and hesitation about trying to escape this work solely to love for Elizabeth. We've never even seen him seriously contemplate what defecting from the Centre would look like or how he and the family would survive. I absolutely believe that if Elizabeth looked at him and said "I want to defect", he would go all in with her without hesitation. But that's not the same thing as what you're suggesting. Yes, absolutely, everyone is exhausted and depressed. And I get that for some people, that's a bummer to watch, but it's true to their story. It reminds me a lot of the reaction to Season 6 of Buffy. A lot of people hated that, too, because watching your protagonist sink into depression, self loathing and self destruction is not fun, and some viewers wanted their quippy show back. But it rang true to the character progression. I can handle some darker and more oppressive beats in a story if it feels like an authentic journey.

At this point, the routine "where's Henry" establishing thing at the beginning of every house scene is getting tiresome. Can we just stipulate that he's never there and be done with it? I just don't get this entirely plot-driven view of the show. A lot of character stuff happened in this episode! Though tbh I would probably watch an entire season of the Jennings family sitting in a room exchanging loaded looks and occasionally verbalizing an intense emotion, so maybe I'm the weird one. :)

The entire Paige plot this season is about them being worried about her mental health.

I've been thinking about this a lot. It seemed almost cruel of Gabriel to say that to Philip on his way out the door, now that it's far too late to help the situation. They were forced to bring her in to the spy circle despite Philip knowing she couldn't handle it, and now Gabriel is basically telling him he was right and Paige will be destroyed, and oh btw I'm leaving so good luck handling that with even less support. And him lying to Elizabeth and putting a pretty spin on it just makes it that much harder for Philip, because Elizabeth clearly wants to believe Paige will be okay and all of this can work out, so she'll be even less likely to be receptive to Philip's concerns. A spiteful move from Gabriel.

It would be pretty stupid of them to tell her that right now. They're trying to get her stable again; why introduce something that would send her spinning into more doubts and that they themselves have no good answer for? Helping Paige keep it together so the family can survive is more important than inviting her to grapple with the hard truths they face.