SusanSunflower

Hate Henry? for Sins of the Father? His crime having failed to "chose" different parentage. Hate Paige who despite years of public education and lackluster indoctrination (if any) by her parents, chose to become a KGB agent, largely to please her mother .... Paige who all but implored Pastor Tim to drop the dime. (Funny she has no idea the life-long secret burden she has placed on The Tims) I'd love for Philip to have a mini-epiphany courtesy of Paige questioning Henry's trustworthiness (she having been utterly untrustworthy when told the secret, natch) that she could and would actually consider leaving Henry behind because he wasn't a member of the secret club .... see also if Elizabeth wavers over Henry's trustworthiness. It's not an "unreasonable" concern, and yet, as others have mentioned, it's not in Philip's DNA to run away and abandon family ... (and with his "other" son he would know the burden of guilt associated with that). I think the "road trip" scenario of them all in one car makes zero sense and is even laughable. There may have been a topsy-turvy get-out-of-dodge emergency plan but there's no reason either Henry or Paige would have known about it (and it does not seem to have been updated for older kids, e.g. Does Henry drive yet?)

blue pill time ......

I don't think Phillip's word would carry the same clout .... he's been "iffy" and largely out of action for 3 years, and Claudia loathes him. It would be Elizabeth's word against Claudia (denying everything except Elizabeth's instability or whatever) .... dangerous and outcome uncertain ... I read on these boards that Gorbachev was wanted of the plot and did not believe it. Whose orders was Tatiana following? Proof? How did Elizabeth know where, when to intercept? Evidence? Philip + Oleg + Elizabeth .... better.

Claudia needed Elizabeth to know that Paige would be taken care of (should Elizabeth fall in the field) in order to facilitate the blue-pill secret operation ... and also needed Paige to turn to Claudia (designated mother substitute) if she had any doubts / freakouts should Elizabeth be "in disposed" during and after the summit (rather than running after Phillip, for instance) ... and as yet, Paige still does not know that Claudia was using her mother as a pawn/fall-guy for the plot (since Elizabeth would be the one to be doing the killing, successfully or not). Paige's mind would be blown trying to figure out "who's the traitor (and to what)?" If Oleg's message is out of reach, somehow they need Elizabeth to explain this mini-plot within the larger plot against the success of the summit. Unlikely to be figured out otherwise.

It's not in Elizabeth's nature to examine things and not 3 episodes ago (or so) everyone agreed that E. was on a losing streak where everything she touched seemed to go bad or turn to shit. Solution: Blame others. Personally, I think it makes her a "dull girl" and less intelligent appearing, however it's been a fairly consistent character trait from season to season unfortunately. Rather like watching a bulldozer in action, not a lot of subtlety or compassion/empathy .... "if you can fake sincerity.... " and she does pretty well. I said years ago that Elizabeth's "vanity" (her excessive self-regard) would be her Achilles heel. She doesn't consider anyone (even Claudia who out-ranks her) her equal and likely blames Phillip for the failure of their partnership .... how dare he spy on her??? (ummm, wild quess: because she seemed about to self-destruct and he's her husband?) Push comes to shove ........ Elizabeth digs in her heels ... the future is unlikely to be rosy.

Peter Jacobson is a well respected actor .... he was in 96 episodes of House ... although I first became aware of his awesome chameleon qualities as he played, usually, the defense attorney on L&O, often legally outmaneuvering / outwitting / out grandstanding McCoy back in early 2000's (He's constantly working because he's "that good", a lot of more recent L&O:SVU, which I don't watch)

As I recall with Jared, they met at a station/terminal somewhere midway ... which would make sense if Paige could convince Henry to meet her somewhere "halfway" perhaps because she needed his advice about a crisis. All Henry needs to do to avoid Stan/FBI is to be somewhere else when they arrive (unless they sensibly use local field agents to determine and secure his location. The truth can wait until his location is altered and there's time for a serious discussion. I think Paige, because of her absence, may be the only family member Henry would accommodate without an argument.

People can and do disappear and start new lives in the USA daily, although it was easier before credit and computers ... Consider the stories of the intense surveillance of Lee Harvey Oswald in the USSR (and some of the consternation that he was allowed to change his mind and come home) ... Visitors in tour groups to the USSR were heavily surveilled with various tales of "too friendly" Russians ... which often turned out to be blackmarket related advances ... Yes, in a country where you have to carry and present your ID at all times to all comers, it's hard to evade detection, but god knows it's still possible ... but in a country where people are very poor and all housing and work is government regulated... very difficult not to stand out if you do not avail yourself of big-brother's services.

I'm wondering just how long Elizabeth thought she could get away with lying to Paige (Paige who likely wasn't going to end up "safe" from honey-pot assignments in a desk job at the State Department ... and how much Elizabeth's vanity wrt not wanting Paige to know and possibly (ha) disapprove her her, Elizabeth. Paige's ignorance about murders accomplished while she was doing stake out or resulting from her stake out is intact. Is Elizabeth delusional or in deep deep denial? Paige had an inkling that Elizabeth might be using her "charms" but likely not on someone as piddling and pitiful as the intern, i.e. her peer, or in other words, almost literally "anyone" ... My impression was that Paige thought honey-potting as kind of sexy and powerful ... screwing boys young enough to be your son? so you can ... not even promise them more sex ... but entrap them by deception into a career-ruining, life-altering scam, seriously not sexy. See also Song-Hee, husband and family. No, I don't think Paige is quick enough to have put it all together, but how did Elizabeth think this deception would end? or did she think Paige would somehow magically never know the truth, that the job involves a lot of spreading your legs for your country, and not on your own initiative? The intern's confession to the room seemed unlikely to me but, meh, he was drunk ....

I think part of Paige's upset with E.'s Jackson seduction was that Elizabeth had invaded her private life turf and I think that's entirely reasonable on an emotional level ... Paige is still conscious of such boundaries; Elizabeth's lack of respect of Paige's "real life" boundaries couldn't be more glaring. Ruthless. I've been thinking about how E. has been lying (much by omission/denial) for 6 long years on what must have been exhaustively ongoing frequency. I've wondered when Paige would get arms training, if simply because we could then get more honesty about the small arsenal that E. often carries with her. Similarly, Phillip's nearly 6 year abdication of any/all responsibility for Paige and her training now seems unconscionable. He's not even aware of how little Paige knows or even how competent Paige is (or is not). E.'s not likely to ever admit regrets, she'd rather eat the blue pill. But as Philip sees his entire family "what he really lives for" thrown into such jeopardy, perhaps he will realize what a bad steward he was of them (as well as the travel agency) ... Since I was wrong about E. realizing that her heroic career as a spy was mostly about honey-potting and assassinations in the course of 6 years of lying to Paige, I expect I will be wrong about some epiphany for Phillip in realizing that letting Elizabeth "have her way" as destroyed all he holds dear.

Welcome Amy Defender! She never made much an impression on me, but I don't think she's somehow a villain or "keeping Jo and Laurie apart" ... I thought Laurie was older and Amy was younger. Most of the families I grew up around had very dominant eldest children who were often held responsible for younger siblings ... sometimes "idolized" but also resented as bossy and unfair. Youngests were often considered "spoiled" when it was mostly parental fatigue that looked like indulgence. Haven't read the book in many years so I'm not sure where the suggestion that Amy and Laurie were "lesser" ... except that Jo might love Laurie but wanted in a life partner someone whose opinion she respected ... as well as trusted. Laurie in that sense loved her too much.

Amy's the baby who grew up during hard times, struggling for the attention she craved but with less artistic talent than she hoped, but more the talent to be a pretty and pleasing companion leaving Aunt March unruffled. She may not be the sharpest knife the drawer, but she does know how to wrest away her fair share of attention (rather than be neglected as some youngest kids are) She has not only Jo, but long suffering Beth (whose illness and the attention is draws no one can resent). Jo failed to please Aunt March (who may have been bored by Amy but who could take pride in having such a pretty and "artistic" companion. and Laurie finally found a girl who said "yes" and (irrc) admired him (so much older) and needed his care and appreciated what he could give her. I always felt there was a bit of a dagger or hidden truthful insult to Laurie that Alcott had him married off to the baby sister who, now married, might well consider herself accomplished ... and Laurie would have his China doll wife to parade at public events. I don't think "baby" Amy can be faulted too harshly for encouraging Laurie's company (pining over Jo) or accepting him (or Aunt March's decision to take her and not Jo).

Bhaer has always been controversial although this was the warmest, most touchy-feely Bhaer ever. He also looks like he has never (or rarely) missed a meal, he's so laid-back, while my memory Bhaer was much more paternal, disappointingly so, as if Jo believed she needed a husband to keep her on the straight and narrow, a la Bronson Alcott. Yes, Jo's rebuke to her father seemed very Pride and Prejudice (though I don't remember Lizzie rebuking her even more deserving father) . Yes also as someone mentioned to Aunt March as Lady Debourgh ... both scenes had an assertive pacing also at odds with the story (as I remember it, but I do remember all the sisters softer and generally "younger" (these sisters also looked botoxed to death) It was interesting having a fed-up-to-here Marmie and a cluelessly self-involved Jo (and the other sisters in turn, but that's traditional). The sisters weren't meant to be paragons but they were supposed to have grown out of childish rivalries and feuds, in the face of real events and hardship, so that they were a bit quicker in the sensitivity and compassion departments, with emphasis on the toll that their bickering had on already stretched to breaking Marmie. All the old folks, but particularly Emily Watson deeply conveyed accumulated hardships. Aunt March never made much sense to me, was she changeable or games-playing? I was disturbed by the almost unrecognizable gloominess. Before antibiotics (and vaccines), childhood disease-related heart disease was pretty common, usually scarlet fever/rheumatic heart disease related which left the heart damaged (as well as scarred and prone to reinfection). People lived with infirmity and death (particularly child mortality and premature deaths of many types, including wounds and broken bones that that wouldn't heal) Few scenes allowed more than 6 lines of dialogue (most only 3, a tv trope) with enough filler and meaningful pauses to fill a feather bed. The palette and production values were over curated and the music (which I rather liked) had an Appalachian quality that seemed out of place. I had never I disliked Jo before, but oh my goodness, I disliked this imperious know-it-all one ... and such a minx (Stop telling Laurie "No" as you keep touching him tenderly ... maybe at 12 or 13 years, not at 16+. Amy (who I always suspected would make Laurie unhappy rather quickly) came off as materialistic and calculating (not for the first time). Personally, I hope DVD sales are dismal and this vanishes under the waves .... pretty as it is... it shouldn't become a widely accepted reading.

I like it. I think that Elizabeth not ending up on a list of traitors to the Soviet Republic (as Claudia seems to intend) may motivate Phillip to cooperate as well genuinely patriotically preventing a real, political KGB coup using "DEAD HAND" as a manufactured a false flag. I don't know how much E&P or we should continue to believe about what Elizabeth (and the rest of the blue pill squad) was told. I'm guessing the Blue Pill Coup/Gorbachev assassination attempt will be attempted from within the summit ... but whether there will be two squads (blue pill and team Claudia) playing spy versus spy I can't quite picture. P could buy himself witness protection for himself and kids by putting the kibosh on those plans. Will Erica's husband's vital info figure beyond irony about best laid plans??? I hope Paige isn't stumbing around in the crossfire. I watched the end of the Return of the Pink Panther (with all the various vehicles circling around a small town fountain until they manage to create a 10-car pile up in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere, a sleepy village in the outskirt) and wondered about "The Summit" and the aftermath (it may take more than one episode to resolve). At the moment this feels more like sports betting on who's left standing or maybe a game of Clue (Major Emerald with the poker in the study) than some nailbiter game of wits (which I'd guess the writers hope for)

Nevermind.

Alternatively, FWIW, if Phillip is anticipating following Elizabeth into the Belly of the Summit, he would need a suit that did not stand immediately out amongst the bespoke-suit crowd .... ymmv.

There's a big "twist and turn" ... the original (fake) plan given to Elizabeth was that the coup would be put into action IF Gorbachev gave-away DEAD HAND (and thus, by their thinking, made an American first-strike more attractive to the "nuclear war is survivable" hawks/tacticians.) Elizabeth and the blue-pill squad would SAVE the USSR by preempting a near-suicidal give-away by Gorbachev. Now she finds out that she and the blue pill squad were going to be the fall-guys for the coup (or attempted coup if they failed (which the KGB could ensure if they wanted to) and the Centre and Claudia's home team would "save the day" by preventing chaos /reestablishing order / killing the extremists -- either way, Claudia & Co.would be hailed as post-coup "heroes" (they controlled the optics) and the blue pill squad would be dead. The "coup" was not about DEAD HAND, it was about deposing Gorbachev and all the reforms he stood for which many hailed as progress and hopeful. It's a lot for Elizabeth to absorb quickly ... and I think Claudia was assuming that Elizabeth had told no one anything and likely would continue to keep the secret (until they killed her, and Phillip for tidiness sake) Coming up with a satisfactory explanation for Paige would depend on the outcome. Claudia also assumed (or had not yet considered) that E. understood the need to kill the page (for her own cover and for the team); assuming basically that Elizabeth wasn't suicidal and understood the rules of the game. I think they both were blinkered by years of obedience and assumed obedience.

I can certainly understand Phillip (in particular given he knew more about why Stan's marriage to Sandra broke up) thinking Renee was "too good to be true" ... in many ways, but particularly to "settle" on being in an exclusive relationship with Stan (of all people she might choose) .... Phillip is normally guarded (part of why line dancing is so enchanting and why EST was so interesting). I genuinely expected there to be more "empty nest" and second-half-of-your-life talk for both P&E and between both couples. After you've put in 20-25 years, you mind turns to the future, the folks you've known who suddenly died without ever retiring etc. Money problems now while putting two kids through school is a game changer (even if you're not a semi-retired KGB agent whose wife apparently loathes and resents you more every day) ... yeah, they come together for the kids and "the job" but the immediate future must have looked very very bleak to Phillip for a while now.

As far as I can tell, the Jennings are not big "socializers" ... Stan and Renee (and Aderhold and his wife) seem (??) to make up their social circle outside work ... we don't know about 10 years ago when Paige was a girl scout or ballet or soccer enthusiast**,,, My guess is that E.'s competitiveness rubbed off on the elementary/middle school years extracurricular activities ... and "other mothers" ... I dunno. I have little doubt the travel agency employees noticed E.'s withdrawal wrt line dancing, but I'd guess there were holiday parties and cookouts in the cul de sac. In short, I think Philip may have been just reacting to Renee's "intrusiveness" ... While Sandra understood boundaries (and Elizabeth) ,,, My father considered "how are you today" a excessively personal coming from a stranger .... "why do you want to know?" he often replied while I slunk away. ** hard to imagine being the introvert daughter of Elizabeth Jennings.

Actually, although it may have been mentioned no one seems to remember, I'd like to know what work she does and (as with Paige) if she knows how to fire a gun (lots of people do, I don't, could be handy in coming days). While she doesn't need to be a genius, she's obviously (at least to me) quick and bright and energetic. I doubt she's been a stay at home "mom" to a mostly adult teenager / empty house for the last 3 years. Renee seems to be actively courting the Aderholds and the Jennings likely to ensure she's not left stuck home along with sometimes-uncommunicative Stan. I wouldn't be surprised if the FBI has a culture of couples -- he in LE, she in support services -- because being married to someone who can't talk about their work and whose work can involve uncertain scheduled and long hours would get lonely, even "bad for the marriage" ... Before P&E recent financial embarassments, I could easily see shared vacations and vacation rentals .... pretty common east coast summer and winter projects for the financially secure.

Now that you mention it, I can see Phillip disguising himself as Elizabeth to provide a decoy for Claudia.

I couldn't believe how within the first hour after the end of "The Summit" with all that went on, the board was obsessed with Renee. I'm sure the writers were thrilled (not).

Renee's ambitions for her sexy boyfriend never got very far ... she seemed to think he needed a challenge. Many in LE become security consultants to industry. (This story is pre-Blackwater iirc). That's part of why I think there was a story line that was aborted for some (any) reason and that we were meant to mistrust her motives wrt Stan. Was she going to take him away from the cul-de-sac. My impression was that she was bored with semi-retired Stan ... so their apparently happy marriage came as a shock to me ... and since he's not apparently doing anything "interesting" a wedding ring seems small comfort to make up for a dull dull husband and a "Mrs."

pointless/useless observation is that it's absurd that there was "no more morphine" in the house after the husband used up all he had held-back for the final-solution moment .... She's terminally ill, has been in serious chronic pain for months ... there would have been more morphine for the next regular dose (and the one after that, and the one after that -- given she was not expected to die) -- morphine, that, even if it were kept under lock and key, would have been available to E. rather than the paint-brush solution. Erica also would have had clearing as her body metabolized that "final shot" that didn't kill her, particularly after 12+ hours. OBVIOUSLY, the husband could have easily just used a pillow

I think Renee may have originally had a different storyline that was aborted for some reason (any reason, pick a reason) .... before the leap she had been all over Stan about being his being unhappy and in a rut. Her studly FBI agent boyfriend was withering on the vine ,,, going back to CI was mentioned as I recall. I was very surprised she was still around and had married the lunk (perhaps she declined to be bought out of her contract). I don't think it's some mass hysteria that made so many of us suspicious about her "ulterior motives" that now (4 years later) seem laughable ....