SusanSunflower

My memory of when we last saw Stan and Renee 3 years ago, Renee thought Stan was stuck ... since then they have (or she has) settled into getting married and being a couple. That doesn't mean that she's not still rather frustrated with Stan's, what, complacency? lack of ambition? To her the Jennings, "working together" may look like a chance in which the wife has the opportunity to influence the husband to be more ambitious, make grand plans (she/they probably know (the good stuff) about the Travel Agency expansion ... Again, it may just be what it looks like on the surface ... or as I said before, her attempt to find something interesting in Stan's job and friends. I don't see how or why they would "develop" her character and story line beyond perhaps making her a hostage at this point in the series .... but she might provide Stan with a game changing observation (a watching the Jenning's driveway from her bedroom window at night sort of "clue". The idea of her "minding" Stan for one side of the other or a third party was "fun", but who really is going to be caring a lot about Stan 3 years down the line ... ??

the role may not be meaty (who knows what was pitched or what will happen next -- she was fascinating, even tantalizing when first introduced and I can't believe she's still with Stan since she was complaining he was "stuck" 3 years ago) I suspect that Paige was promised a pivotal important role (eventually, even to "grow into") to sign on for all 5 years or until end of series. Renee showed up late, had a fascinating first season and then largely became wallpaper as the story was actually woven over the last few seasons. The intimation that she's a "spy" seem a bit flimsy, possibly projection (based on "why is she with Stan?) ... It's great exposure. eta: I don't know but I've seen enough miserable divorced cops going to seed, drinking too much and being generally very-angry-azzholes to last a lifetime Particularly after Nina, I don't think anyone wanted to see Stan follow that path ... pairing up "like Noah's ark" grounds characters as "well-adjusted" (see, she likes him!!) ... sure, YMMV. Kyle Secor (Bayliss) on Homicide as well as Reed Diamond (Mike Kellerman) made other dysfunctional cops seem overdone. Brilliant and unique characters.

(not to be a total bore, but the actress may have been available for limited work on a series working with friends or people she admired. The limited role won't hurt her career and (if she has personal/family "stuff" that needs some regular limited hour) the show provides a great opportunity to be seen. She's gorgeous. If she's friends with anyone on the show, double plus good ... she's only been about for what 2 seasons? (IMDB gives her 12 episodes total but, of course, they lie) I think the showrunners, rightly, assumed the audience wanted Stan to be paired up and, after his gorgeous ex-wife, anyone other than a stunner would be a "step down" in men's world ... and so Renee may just be a bored wife who thinks that really truly has to be something interesting about Stan and/or his friends, and Phillip is just a worrywort concerned about all.new.people. meh. She could end up a damsel-in-distress without being a kick-ass secret ninja assassin (Sherlock reference) I'd add that Langella and Martindale are pretty top of the marque names to be in the sort of limited supporting roles (much bigger than Renee, but varying in centrality -- both "went away" for months at a time ... I guess I'm just saying sometimes actors are quite happy with limited supporting role when meaty or interesting to them.

For the sake of discussion, I will assume the pages are genuine and note that they seem to implicate a lot of people both in the commission and coverup of these crimes ... something I read said that the physical compound was sold to the christian youth camp people by the county ... There appears to have been a mad rush to put this controversy to bed as quickly as possible, perhaps to get the moneys, perhaps to avoid legal discovery of past deals made (now that almost all Rajneeshi were not around to complain about promises unkept or misrepresentation by law enforcement (except for those with legal action pending with vast incentives to not make waves in return for plea bargains and lighter sentences and parole recommendations). Much of rural America is ruled by the large landowners and their almost dynastic families who have often held political office (and major employer status) for generations. Where I live our town manager was just removed from office -- according to the local paper -- but nothing tells me why except her "behavior" was inappropriate ... oddly not the first town official removed in the last decade or so (we knew why the last time -- she had fired office staff who reported her mishandling of fees paid, they sued and sort of won, but iirc, in her departure they insisted she had done nothing wrong (not even to create a petty cash slush fund from undeposited fees) ETA: Like Colorado, Oregon was transformed from a very very conservative bastions of a lot of the usual vices (like racism) by the influx of many Californians seeking relief from exorbitant real estate prices and over crowding ... real estate was cheap and plentiful. My neighbors (school teachers) bought a modest country retreat which they loved for a while but were very surprised by the hostility to "foreigners" like themselves. ( I think this was in the 80's) There were also few jobs, even for k-12 teachers

Agree Benteen, A little exposition would go a long way in clarifying what's happened in the last 3 years and dumb stuff like how dire is the Travel Agency's financial problems (and for how long) and how big and unaffordable Henry's school bill is (and how many more semesters he is from graduation, and what the college plan for him is/was). If the Jennings set up college funds for both kids, there are different options than if they are and have been flying by the seat of their pants (for years as the Travel Agency has been sliding towards bankruptcy). No one wants to discuss American bankruptcy in the 1980's at this point, but it was pretty common as I recall. Frustrating because I thought Phillip was both smarter and more responsible than this suggests ... Is he too "proud" to ask for help or admit the problems to anyone??

Trevor Eve's character after confessing (to hiring the hit) pleading guilty, being convicted and tellling his his kids he did it all for them and he was proud of them. I didn't remotely realize it was a finale episode until about 45 minutes from the end as story threads ended and it became obvious there was going to be nothing to unravel next week. It did wrap up better than I thought, even as I was watching it with some dismay (even if I have some difficulty with the murderer, at least (unlike so many) the acts of murder were not a matter of superhuman strength or cunning. (though I was less certain than DCI Cassie Stewart (Nicola Walker's character's name). Lots of dignity for pretty much all characters. Again wondering how lawless the 1960's were wrt gang/mob violence and how broadly that criminal activity was spread. . Looking forward to next week.

I would have thought Stan and Phillip would have had many "how you gonna pay for your kids' college" conversation over the course of the years ... because they're both the sort of well-off middle class fathers would have taken "financial planning" as part of their dad duties ... not very likely to do nothing and "hope for the best" ...

corrected on 04/09/2018

I think Philip said he didn't want Henry to "leave home" so soon... that he wanted to be able to spend more time with him, father/son fashion, before he went left home or went off to college.. I don't recall money or relative affluence being mentioned as an issue, just that Philip wasn't ready for Henry to prematurely leave home. .... (there was, of course, no mention of Paige being ~3 years older ... and no mention of her college plans until this year, a vague as they are now.

Because this is TV land, it's impossible to parse just how well the travel agency has ever been doing since as far as I can tell they have always lived far beyond the means of any mom-and-pop small business I've known and don't recall money ever being an issue ... to go to Disneyland or buy a new (fancy) car or in anticipation of Paige going to college (all big ticket items) ... see also the impromptu trip to see Elizabeth's mother. I assume the Centre subsidizes a fair amount (not least so there are stable capable employees to keep the joint running when Philip and Elizabeth are out of town (suddenly) on assignment or pulling a lot of night work. Actually I thought briefly that having Phillip a full-time on-site manager would have raised some serious tensions with the otherwise largely autonomous staff (which also makes me wonder why -- with Phillip now full time, they needed some new hires (whatever). (I've also wondered why Paige and/or Henry hasn't been enlisted to learn the business as a part-time job in high school, etc.

the lemonade is the funniest, snort-worthy bit of comedy I've seen in the last decade .... hilarious from Lance hoping to get the wife busy in the kitchen to all of them, each of them desperately realizing there was nothing to do but drink it ... so they could leave (please god) ... side-splitting. (I may be thinking of season two)

I also have wondered if Elizabeth and the spy-training isn't ruining Paige for any boring 9-5 deep embed deployment (for however long a duration) even if she gets to dress up and honeypot in her off-hours. How ya gonna keep them down on the farm after they've seen Paris????

Still, it would seem to be an extreme and unnecessary risk for the KGB to take ... yes, I know Keri is the very beautiful #1 star of the show for many people -- but seriously .... (at least I think that was the point being made) -- an overtasked, even skeletal a crew should not casually risk its "star player" doing this sort of close surveillance.

The current series of arrests and impending prosecution of NXIVM is interesting wrt issues of adults "freely" entering into subservient (pretty much master/slave) relationships, pledging money, participating in rewards-for-completion assignments (compared to a "pyramid scheme") ... interesting summary (not sensationalistic) if you are interested from rolling stone https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/nxivm-what-we-know-about-alleged-sex-trafficking-forced-labor-w518483 I've not seen this sort of high-level federal prosecution of a "cult" (because folks crossed state lines) with accusations of "human trafficking". .. It will be interesting to see if a personal freedom counter campaign is born. In my various readings wrt Rajnessh, the "massive immigration fraud" consisted of, irrc, 35 "fraudulent" marriages between an American citizen and a foreigner in search of permanent residency / green card status ... which doesn't strike me as "massive" given the age and relative sophistication (international travel as one indicator) of the Rajneesh population ... remember the Andie McDonnell/Gerard Depardieu movie of the name "Green Card" ... In an age of rampant divorce (particularly wrt hasty impulsive marriages) a "fraudulent marriage" to help out a friend didn't seem much like a "crime" eta: I am fascinated (at my age of 65) by the younger generations insistence on law enforcement's "help" in dealing with things like this. Straight forward personal legal suits about undue influence and fraud leading to "fortune teller" style financial legacies being signed over to charismatic leaders have long precedent ... Apparently the leader (fairly longterm how-to-succeed-in-life guru among many) had longstanding personal support of the Bronfman family -- money talks, friends in high places -- still the personal freedom to "follow you bliss" and make your own mistakes is worth conserving.

I'd be massively "irritable" too (just in the worrying/figuring of it) ... It's would be such a betrayal of all Elizabeth believes about herself being invaluable, irreplaceable, essential. There may come a "run for the border" moment (though that doesn't seem particularly likely at the moment, given the death-march quality of the season so far). Save herself, save Phillip, save Paige if possible ... trash the big-wig?? ... most likely Henry to be left behind. She can't -- as yet -- talk it out with Phillip. It's too awful; but in time, he and Oleg might rise to the occasion to save her ... trying to imagine how properly protect and prepare Paige -- one way or the other -- is beyond comprehension .

Actually, I wonder if Elizabeth realizes that her involvement in "the plot" is likely to be her dead end, regardless of the actual political outcome. She didn't particularly get to make an informed choice, she was drafted, and yet -- even if no "corrective action" is necessary wrt Gorbachev -- rather than being super-loyal, reliably 1000% Elizabeth, she may be considered a threat by the very people who enlisted her ... simply because she knows about the "plot" and was willing to participate in an assasination plan against her better .... she is a double threat wrt to the big-wig -- she knows of his involvement and she might be "recruitable" in some future plot that he's not in control of and/or that goes to it's final end ... She's not a deep thinker, but she may intuit that after the Summit -- because of her unquestioning loyalty and participation in the scheme -- as Oleg said -- too much of a liability to be continue working for the KGB.... More real life (within this fiction): "If I told you I'd have to kill you." She seems to know there's no happy ending to this story through no fault of her own. Because the outcome is unclear and possibiilities so numerous, it's a gnaw rather than a panic at this point, a "can't have your cake and eat it too." --- what happens after?

sorry, I was thinking of high publicity baseball defectors .... not your average on-the-bad-side-of-the-party Cuban wash-ashore (who got little publicity, but I think did often get protections most "illegal entrants" did not)

Huh? I just didn't see them as heroes or exemplars of freedom seekers ... also relevant, I don't recall any bloody bodies or mysterious deaths amongst celebrity defectors (maybe I've forgotten them). I do recall enormous American press coverage as if the defection of these superstars somehow proved the failings of communism and the righteousness of the Cold War ... Quick, you check under the bed, I'll check the closet. eta: My recollection is that most celebrity asylum seekers had enormous support in defecting often from wealthy and/or influential people ... some disappeared solo from airports and train stations with the shirt on their back, but atheletes were often aided by folks eager to manage them or leagues eager to sign them. eta: The tales of derring-do, evading the minders and the leap to freedom were suspenseful and the stuff of spy novels ... I do recall some fraught stories of defections of spies (that went awry). How the soviet people would react to finding out about the Teacups working relationship with the FBI, I'm not sure.

I always assumed most Soviet and Cuban defections, rather than being "political" or about "freedom", were obviously in search of big bucks that capitalism promised ... not a particularly flattering or noble motivation.

Elizabeth's USSR and/or communism apparently have lost any moral foundation as well in this telling ... As I've written elsewhere and before, Elizabeth's fervent beliefs, her ideology are used to avoid questioning much of anything, much less considering an alternative or solution ... it's "pragmatic" and largely transactional (Elizabeth needs a lot of approval even if it means trash-talking her husband) ... not unlike Paige who apparently also will turn any trick asked for the expectation of praise. (If she had seduced the intern in furtherance of her own career desire to be an intern I might feel differently, but I think she was instead (as young woman can be) in awe of the power of her sexuality to get her what she wanted, whatever that might be). Cue Cat Stevens singing "Wild World" ... IOW: Elizabeth would be just as ruthless whatever her "cause" ... and now she has apparently spawned a similarly ruthless amoral mini-me.

Jennings, Elizabeth sounds like a toe-tag to me or (prolly equally likely at this point) )a file folder label) .... It's funny because my dislike of Elizabeth is because of her shallow shallow ideology -- a "communism" that doesn't respect human life and that treats everyone like "people of no importance" in futherance of a "cause" that should be idealistic (if you understand the basics of communism) but ends up being coldly calculating, not too far from Hitler's final "pragmatic" solution ... Without ever much educating Paige about things like the origins of poverty or basic economics, much less the "collectivist" ideology (the group over the individual) that is part of why and how liberation theology came to co-exist and cooperate with the foundationally atheistic marxists in many countries. Neither Paige or Henry have a love for the poor and downtrodden or an anger at their plight, much less various historical alternatives -- such as European democratic socialism and the right of people (all people) to health care, and personal security, food and shelter, dignity, etc. She avoids examining "what hath Marx wroth?" in the USSR, or Mao in China or Castro in Cuba or discussing the same with her kids. She uses her self-proclaimed ideological fervor like blinders to question -- as responsible adults should -- the life she leads and the consequences of her actions. She is a "zealot", passionate about the "cause" as a means of avoiding her life.

No, I meant latently suicidal ... taking unnecessary risks, putting herself in danger of injury or discovery ... not a conscious desire to die or be dead or even to get a good night's sleep the hard way ... and her last murders have been reckless ... arguably giving Phillip any operational details was also dangerous (and may bite her in the ass or get her killed). The cyanide capsule was to ensure she had the means to "do the right thing" efficiently before anyone could interrogate or torture her ... no trying to find plastic bags to slowly asphixiate herself or something sharp to also slowly bleed to death. Taking it, would not need for her to have any suicidal tendency, just to finish her assignment.

My impression is that the KGB "allowed" Philip to semi-retire because they knew that Elizabeth alone would be in dangerous territory (see William) whether he was dead or "in Russia" and they wanted/needed to keep alive the idea that "retiring" was possible ... y'know, like Gabriel, like Claudia who goes back to Russian (in disgrace) and returns ... If not for "being there to support Elizabeth," I think Philip would be dead and will be disposed of if she dies. It was several seasons ago that I considered (and rejected) either Elizabeth or Phillip getting promoted to being a "handler" in the event they chose to opt-out, Elizabeth is too competitive and Phillip too conflicted and empathetic (at that time) Neither has been in a position to develop useful "institution knowledge" (history, relationships, careers trajectories, etc.) They are operational agents. I'm not looking at Phillip as someone who "let Elizabeth down" but someone who stood by her, even when he would have preferred to "got back to Russia" (or other alternative). I also suspect Philip has some awareness of how expendable he really is. This season hit the ground running with this ice cavern between them I also. Not seeing the last 3 years does not mean that the last 3 years have been "just like this" ... as I said in my last post. I assume the Summit and now the "special assignment" has tipped things to extreme burnout. I also think the writers are pushing us to see Elizabeth as potentially latently suicidal. Is she really? I'm feeling sheepdogged by the writing to consider Elizabeth as "hopeless"even "terminal".

Actually the "thing" that's bugging me about "bad mommy Elizabeth" is how the writers are really pounding us over the head with it .... and creating this utter grand-canyon of a divide between P&E, who have been married forever and have weathered "bad times" without (until this last episode somewhat) anyone losing their temper and saying "talk to me damn it!!!" I've imagined that Henry returning home would be aghast at Elizabeth's burnt out appearance (Is she dying?) and Paige really should have expressed some concern (she doesn't have to "nurse" her mother but general "concern" about someone you love is not out of line) ... It feels like anvils and quite unfair to Elizabeth who we have seen has been primary caretaker, chief cook and bottlewasher to that household for a long time in addition to her laundry room and nocturnal adventures. She's veering into dangerous stereotype (career before family) territory when this is actually a recent development (not so true 3 years ago) and possibly a quite recent (the Summit) (situational)?

It's also sort of cowardly of the show to have Paige apparently honeypotting secretly as a matter of her own "choice" ... particularly given Jim's seduction of the now of-age Kimmie is about to become "necessary" (Jim having made keys to Kimmie's dad's house and playing cat-burglar would be "a" (if not "the") logical explanation of how he keeps the intel flowing)