SusanSunflower

I think the sailor as mugging is going to feel hinky to investigators. I think this death in the park is also, except even more so with all the evidence of a struggle and so much gore splatter possibly suggesting he didn't just sit down, stick a gun under his chin and blow his brains out. If it turns out he was leaving the next day for a long-planned vacation in Hawaii, double. Even if they do a "clean up" he will still be missing (maybe someone will care) (With the sailor, I didn't think E. would have, but under different circumstances "clean up crew" might be able to make it look more credibly like a mugging ... like if the body had been found in a parked car with evidence pointing to a possible female suspect -- but again, whatever -- they would be extensively canvassing the area for witnesses -- red alert) eta: Maybe next week, Paige can ask if he Elizabeth sometimes uses violence "on the job", y'know besides self-defense ..... heh

One of the bitchy things about the 3 year gap is we don't know what Paige has witnessed or been told or done ... and since she appears largely unnaturally unchanged (except for the hair cut and some vague "self confidence") I realized I was thinking that she had just been following Elizabeth around like a puppy (to be guarded, because puppies like babies do dumb things!!! ) Anyone remember anything to suggest, for instance that Paige is taking Tae Qwan Do at the local center, spending regular sessions at the shooting range, maybe taking some defensive driving course -- all available and not "suspicious" for amateurs with money -- or -- is the awesome Centre somehow full of trainers (despite the criminal shortage of trained operatives). Elizabeth didn't want or need a "wet clean up" for the food pantry guy (afaict), and probably didn't call for one for sailor ... Will she request the Centre get rid of the evidence of this last disaster? Will Paige check the newspaper so see if "a body was found"? and wonder (and question) )when there's no mention or feel fear if it was ... Will she indiscreetly go to Phillip with her questions and upset?? (I don't think she's under a gag wrt to her dad). Could cleaning up after the latest dead guy pull Philip back into the game (seems possible and also likely to exacerbate tensions with E.) ... don't kow.

In the same vein, I'm not sure that Paige saw or registered Elizabeth's gun in the last episode, likely the gore blotted out everything else, but it made me wonder if Paige even knows that Elizabeth is often armed? that being a spy of her mother's level really is *that* dangerous? when will Paige begin arms training? Seeing her mother covered with gore may well have traumatized Paige in ways -- we regular viewers -- don't expect because we've seen so much murder and gore on this show, by Elizabeth ... but, Paige hasn't (except for that knifing of the bad-guy outside the food pantry). Paige is likely to demand some answers ... or maybe just "want to talk about it" ... next episode should be "interesting" given how burnt out and avoidant Elizabeth is.

The Centre wasn't even positive it was the right pair ... Who even knew this pair of war criminals had (likely?) been located, chomping at the bit to know they were dead? but whatever. I just realized that it's 3 years since season 5, and that Paige went with Elizabeth to Russia to meet her grandmother in Season 3. Is Claudia actually judging Elizabeth''s indoctrination/education success ... I think it's been at least 6 years and Paige mostly resembles a girl scout doing tasks in follow the leader fashion. Broken record: Paige does not have the depth of commitment to bounce back from failure or for the centre to reasonably expect she will follow an order she dislikes (honey trap for instance) ... I can imagine Paige questioning and/or trying to bargain her way out of the latter and being a zombie (deeply traumatized) if someone she knew got killed.

It was non urgent, because they weren't going anywhere ... they didn't need to be killed before the first of the month and it's hard to imagine that only P&E had the skilz to make a positive identification and commit the execution ... I think having Elizabeth babysit Paige doing entry-level suveillance (when there's a team available to keep an eye on the new girl) is worse ... I don't know why Elizabeth would be in on the scene supervising that surveillance operation rather than trusting team members. -- Done right, don't think there was even need for good English language or assimilation

I'm tempted to ask, "Who hasn't seen / heard "the nutcracker"?" even if they didn't know that's the name of their Yule time ear worm. We played it in the Christmas orchestra recital in junior high. I'm not sure I've ever seen it beyond 5-10 minutes here or there. I hope Claudia figures out that Tolstoy, Puskin, Turgenev, Yevteshenko and/or movies of their work are unlikely to provoke an emotional response from this little American philistine's heart .... I remember being blown away by the Hermitage and its collections, particularly modern art, and also some of the architecture and (?) cathedrals -- how old and ornate they were. I had not appreciated the how longstanding and deep Russia's cultural history was (being an American philistine) but I did understand that Russia was not a simple wasteland of illiterate peasants versus the Czar prior to 1917 ... it was the outstanding quality of the works in the Hermitage that came as a surprise (but then I am conversant wrt art and appreciative)

Was Claudia then "making a memory" recognizing how unsentimental and duty-bound -- head not heart -- Paige was "just like her mother" perhaps in response to her chilly analytical reaction to "Moscow Does Not Believe in Tears" ... Somehow recognizing that Paige will never get a lump in her throat or tears in her eyes at sight of the flag being raised or the playing of the Internationale (which even chilly Elizabeth likely would) ... so Bring on the Tchaikovsky blow-torch to unmelt that heart ... Fail! ETA: Just another installment of cultural education, like the cooking lesson ... a dish Paige will likely never make again unless prodded. It may be delicious, but why make that when you can make extra-cheesy scalloped potatoes

Oh, I didn't mean "about cheating", I meant about having a genuine (pretty much) voluntary romantic relationship .. in addition to their very young obligatory arranged marriage. I think they both, during the years of the show, have made that recommittment and would in fact chose each other if they had to "do it all over again". Oh, and I thought Philip was quite intrigued by sexually voracious Martha and her Kama Sutra and "rough sex" ... ETA: E. may loath having sex with marks, but I think she likes the validation that she's endlessly desirable. Not about the sex, about the power and mastery. I had a crazy thought that if the artist realized taht Elizabeth "shots" don't work as well as the other nurses, she could be suspected of drug addiction herself ... always exhausted and near-napping on the job, etc. Here where I live (state capital) we had several ugly cases of hospital worker addicts who stole patient's narcotics (from the syringe) leaving the patient's writhing in pain or without ordered anesthesia -- horrible. As someone said above, Elizabeth is rapidly without redeeming qualities ... I'm beginning to want her caught (not killed, caught). Note these "bad nurses" cases got a lot of attention because a least one had worked and been fired from other hospitals and two (iirc) had HIV and injected patients with dirty needles they had used ... the number of patients, etc. made it big news, prolly about a decade ago.

yes,they also spend a lot of time apart which may be why they haven't killed each other yet .... because mercifully for the stability of their marriage, they never find time to talk .... ha ha ha ha eta; The "funny" thing about Martha was how superior Elizabeth felt toward her and how confused E. was about P. attachment ... I remember P. was surprised at how willing to be devoted and "just trust him" Martha was ... it wasn't romantic for him, but I think it was a bit of "how the other half lives" and I suspect her loyalty contrasted with E. -- for all her beauty and intelligence ... and the mission. (I miss that sort of developed character... I really would like to care about Paige much more than I do, but I have nothing to work with)

Phillip and Elilzabeth have to swallow their emotions -- which are often simmering briskly, even hot -- for the cause. The did separate and each had a significant other relationship: Elizabeth and Gregory (now dead) and Phillip and the mother of his son (name escapes me, but the breakup seemed conflicted, she broke up with him for the sake of his brilliant future career). Elizabeth was more upset with that reunion that I would have expected, perhaps only because Phillip kept it secret. They both have gotten attention and approval from "opposite sex" marks, oh and lots of sex. Scratch the surface, Elizabeth might well sic Claudia on him and he knows it. They have two innocent kids to deceive** and a cover to maintain. ** There's probably only very limited "truth" in what Paige knows. There's little if any freedom to dissent in their story.

The coma could be reversed with Narcan and / or time ... seriously, consider people who use, abuse and are addicted to narcotics for years, decades, with or without pain .... and still they live. Prince was reportedly (legendarily) in pain for decades ... his fairly stable addiction (pain related) done-in by new fangled ultrapowerful pharmaceuticals, not because he "developed a tolerance" ... See also Tom Petty whose substance history I do not know beyond reading that he had been in terrible pain for months ... again, the new fangled drug did him in. Elizabeth should worry more about patient suicide or mercy killing by the husband ... and intractable pain can also result in hospitalization for evaluation and trying new therapies, nerve blocks, for instance.

I'd love to see Elizabeth's face when Paige tells other members of the team about her uncomfortable encounter with the security guard (perhaps even thinking she should helpfully warn them so it doesn't happen to them!) ... see also the rest of the team (including Paige) being unaware of likely increased police activity in the vicinity because of the (faux) mugging. (I'm not sure how far away from the surveillance target the murder occurred) eta; I was thinking that Paige might walk away from the seemingly inevitable debacle "smelling like a rose" because no one realizes her centrality to what set things in motion.

Yes, it involves correction and feedback and also actual mature "team work" in which there's no time for whinging and hurt feelings even if the criticism is brusque. Elizabeth seems to be shielding Paige from her team members under the guise of training ... and it's still 3 years on .. and she's now (what?) 19 or 20 and had had some period of time to move to less comfortable questions, like how will my spying affect my non-spying personal life if I even found time / inclination to have one. Paige must have realized by now (even if 3 years ago she did not) that her mother is a women who is very attractive to men and who "rocks it" ... or maybe Paige is as immature, sheltered and unobservant as she appears.

It was an odd question, I thought. I think the more obvious question for Paige to Elizabeth is "Have YOU ever used sex to get information?" ... possibly leading into some understanding of how her parents marriage works/worked. Obviously Elizabeth has enormous autonomy from Philip, but -- still -- it's hard to imagine your Mom engaging in sexy-times with your Dad's tacit permission. Didn't get a hint of that obvious "what about my future relationships" dimension for Paige. Again, watch a dozen (better) spy movies or read a dozen (better) books (i.e. not James Bond) and it's obvious that there's not only Honeypots, but also lots of relationships of convenience -- using people as cover or using targets as new-best-friends ... which may also involve (casual) sex or even pretenses of relationship (The Quiet American comes to mind) eta: Sorry, but 46 is relatively "very young" to have terminal cancer ... but, what I meant was that her heart and lungs (and those of most 46 year olds) are usually still in good shape ... of course there are exceptions ... she's less likely to go into congestive heart failure and die (bad for elizabeth) from extended heavy use of narcotics "only one person in care team" implies that there are others ... one person is not a team ... the husband and physicians are obvious other members, the patient and -- yes -- the other nurses whom we saw.

yes, see also, adjacent public toilet stalls both with working locks!!!

Partly there weren't many large accessible, reasonable complete data bases going back 30-50 years in 1986 ... veterans (after the war(s)) applied for benefits or their family received death benefits and these records were "strong" and readily available. Criminal records (similarly) existed, were available and reasonably complete and accurate. (see also marriage and baptism/birth certificate records (for those who were born in hospitals or whose parents registered their birth -- when the location of these events were specified). Also real estate transactions and bank loans.

There was a protocol where I worked ... it wasn't "euthanasia" ... it was "letting nature take it's course and NOT withholding medication to keep the patient alive. The administration of IV fluids was considered obligatory ... eventually, iirc, blood work and electrolyte supplementation may have been added (I don't remember outcome of that lobbying). eta: Questions of euthansia equivalent were vigorously denied BECAUSE it was (and is) illegal ... so we have careful documentation of continuation of care (iv fluid, vital signs, turning, baths, bed changes) to dispel that accusation ... There's also the matter of "coroner's cases" and who signs the death certificate and testifies to "cause of death" ... it's not taken lightly and can have very serious ramifications if the death is challenged by a dissenting/suspicious/unhappy family member. (Again the reasons for lots of documentation and "necessary criteria" to be met )

Paige's born in the USA birth certificate is not some magic key to entry ... her parent's origin story as (real) immigrants or as fictitious natural born Americans will matter ... Grandpa's service record (if he is alleged to have been alive and living in the USA during the World Wars) will be checked ... and his status simply checked against existing records. (see also often places of residence/property owned and birth registrations)

It's ridiculous -- Elizabeth is only one person in the care team ... and with this plan, the patient could easily end up dead or in the hospital ... either way, oops, Elizabeth has to pack up and go home

I suspect Philip's draft record would be an alarm bell. According to Wiki, he and Elizabeth moved to Viginia in 1965 and Paige was born in 1967. Lack of European grandparents' documentation could just maybe be WWII aftermath, but for Philip (whose age then is uncertain to me), before Vietnam, there was Korea. It's not that he would have had to serve, but he would have had to register (and there should be a record, and I'd bet there's none)

someone having excruciating pain an hour before their next dose is due (a very long time) may well benefit from a carefully controlled drip (same milligrams/hour/day, but creating a stable blood level) and/or microdosing on demand (now called Patient Controlled Anesthesia where the patient can push the button on the IV machine for a micro-burst)... I'm trying to remember when patient-controlled liquid oral micro-dosing became acceptable but it was in the 1980's as I recall, when control of narcotics was loosened. (It has now tightened completely and that 1980's loosening is sometimes blamed for opioid crisis -- I'm doubtful) One real problem with the every-4 or 6-hour schedule is the peaks and valleys and patients whose demand for more medicine is because they want to zone out (which is sometimes when an agreement to damn the torpedos, "let them go" ... but that won't work for Elizabeth. However, another big danger of peak and valley dosing is the respiratory suppression of peak blood level, particularly in someone who is not moving around. (Since the 80's there have been vast "improvements" wrt slow-release orals ... I think not available then) This artist/patient appears very young and likely has very good heart and lungs and could live a very long time in a drug-induced coma (while an older person or someone with heart/lung compromise would not). Elizabeth would do well to recognized that this woman might well jump out a window or hang herself from the shower rod or slit her wrists.

No, abort, abort, abort ... Paige's obvious lack of natural talent/instincts for any of this is glaringly obvious ... plus she's a serious liability to others .... As someone said, give her the telephone switchboard assignment -- if she can master it.

But as a "spy like Hans" her shelf-life will be very short indeed, shorter than Hans from what we've see so far. As an embed, she can use her intelligence and education and live a normal life. Now wondering what being "born in the USA" have to do with any of this??? Oh, dearie me ... they may have done quite a lot of damage to my interest in what comes next. (see also: an American citizen caught doing Elizabeth's work would be charged and tried as a traitor while Elizabeth is just another spy ... eligible for spy swaps and other special options )

actually I agree -- one generation American is probably not enough data points to pass muster ... grandparents matter and as we see on various genealogy programs, for many many people the records simply do exist (and with computers -- but even fiche/microfilm before that -- are more and more accessible). Law Enforcement or Civil Service jobs work better because so much time and effort is invested before low level clearance is required. The background check is to rule out criminal records, parents' citizenship isn't a big deal and they are entry level jobs for all sorts of first generation Americans (many not requiring 4-year college degrees). So an FBI applicant likely has invested 5-7 years (particularly if doing night school) in getting qualified to apply. Paranoia about "infiltration" in many areas is probably low as a result. The mafia wanting insider information would be more of a concern (because the FBI does domestic work, while CIA is not allowed to). (I have no idea how deep P&E's cover background goes or if it could be altered to allow more no information "blanks" This is the 1980's both in technology available and pre-09/11 levels of paranoia -- ETA: Paige is not join-the-army material, imho. Journalism or Academia would seem the most "open" but would require a lot of social skills and self-starting. Depending on what's already in there, "lost in the post-war diaspora" was a major reason for convenient holes that allowed in the otherwise forbidden (those Nazi still being discovered in suburban American rest homes) and could explain blanks in Paige's pedigree.

It's very possible to apply for a job in the State Department or even to work for the CIA (although they vigorously approach people they are interested in so it might not be necessary)m the key (since apparently there are lots of applicants) is to have an impeccable resume, languages, and sponsors/references. Both services are eager for the best and the brightest (and I'd guess many applicants are simply pipe-dreaming, like wanting to join the Green Berets or Special Forces -- I suspect the after-acceptance, elimination round is brutal, because they are going to invest so much in your "special skilz" (like the Special Forces) and want eliminate poseurs interested in the ego-trip from those actually capable of doing the work. Academia is often "infiltrated" by government intelligence, both for intelligence gathering from experts (and their contacts) and the contacts with the broader ex-pat community. (Think Cuban ex-pats or Iraqi ex-pat ... they are eager to do favors to get favors or help). Someone like Juan Cole (middle east) or Stephen Cohen (Russia) have extensive contacts, at least some of whom might (might) willingly inform on their contacts and milieu (remember the Wikileaks diplomatic cables?) either here in the USA ex-pat community or relaying information from on-the-ground in another country. After 09/11, it turned out that the State Department has multiple vacant positions throughout the middle east and a critical scarciity of Arabic speakers/translators -- the reason was that no one wanted to be posted to Muslim countries and there was general fear (because of the shortage) you'd never be able to transfer somewhere else ... ever. I was shocked because it was a "national security" weak spot ... translation of surveillance audio was backlogged terribly, and all those empty offices in countries whose oil reserves were critical to our economy. Anyway, I suspect that someone willing to specialize in areas where there was an obvious need could rise quickly to a useful position -- even if one with no alcohol or bikinis. Embedding in the CIA or FBI would mean the usual ruthlessly competitive meritocracy in a fairly large field of very very ambitious co-workers. I don't see Paige as having even an ember in her belly much less a "fire" ...