SusanSunflower

Actually, I thought it was his in-her-face "don't flatter yourself" rejection of any tale of woe or an innocent wronged and rather reflected some of his ambivalence wrt Joan. [Did Joan go on dates that involved one more drink back at the flat and a bit of money left on the bureau when the man had slipped away to go to work?} Back in the old days, women often earned such a pittance they could justify such generosity much as aspiring actors and models paid the rent by acting as escorts or arm candy to powerful men and women. Prostitution not "required" but it paid well. Morse is a prig in boring ways (spelling and punctuation) but also in better ways, like curbing vulgar sexist and probably racist slang and behaviors in the station (or at least in his presence). He was educated and they weren't but there were some standards of decency and professionalism to be maintained (much as he disapproves of Thursday's tendency towards threatening and physically hurting / beating suspects. According to various wiki fan pages, he was born in 1938 and so missed "the sixties" as an active anything-goes participant (in part because of his spartan and unhappy upbringing .... "freedom" continued to look too much like licentiousness or recklessness, and so often was too similar to the excesses privileged classes to pretend it was new or "happening", much less liberating. Morse distrusts women and men, pretty much equally if in different ways ... and regrets the persistent loneliness this wariness has bred.

I wanted to give a shout-out to the actress playing Joan (Sara Vickers) for convincingly maturing from late teens to young womanhood (not good with ages) .... She looked gorgeous and composed and classy in several scenes in Muse ... not a trace of "girl" remains (Vickers played the female lead in the 3rd season of Shetland (the Scottish not Welch detective story) I was so frustrated with the character development of the daughter in The Americans and while watching Muse several times, thought "this, this is how it's done" ... "it's called acting" but also allowing the actor and character to have presence without always doing cartwheels or being defiant or troubled, a metamorphosis with so little "telling" (rather than showing) I rather doubt that Joan's objections to getting involved with a cop, particularly one so close to her father have receeded. Morse is still more big-brother/father-confessor/keeper of confidences. I think Morse my well vicariously envy and admire Joan's independent spirit and even her intentions to seek out the fun and good life as a townie in Oxford. My recollection of Morse's upbringing is that it was grim and purposeful. Joan in contrast is the child of stability and solid middle class comfort (she is ripe to desire more from life than her parents and brother's dutiful existence) I suspect Thursday unspoken does consider Joan a "fallen woman" (and would think worse of her if he knew what Morse knows) ... but refrains for the sake of his wife and her future relationship with Joan and grandkids and old age, and the rest. Morse may be naïve in thinking that Joan's desire to "walk on the wild side" was limited and innocent-enough, not crossing double-yellow lines, safe-enough, because she's a good person. and it's entirely likely that Joan is young and heedless and even happy to be boldly risk taking (unable to imagine things turning out as badly as the stag party did for those girls) I fear for both of them.

early on, Joan was visiting a nightclub associated with her father's nemesis in organized crime. I wasn't certain that the bank robbers weren't somehow connected/related and that Morse was concerned that suspicion might fall on Joan because of "friends" her father knew nothing about ... perhaps having inadvertently passed on useful information about the bank that would look bad in the wrong light. It never came to anything ... as I said, I'd forgotten about it

I'd forgotten about the bank robbery .... is that still Joan's darkest secret being kept by Morse?

Show is doing a great job of depicting the conflict wrt old-fashioned 1950's "paternalism" and rapid freedom available to young women in the late 1960's which has been a theme, particularly involving Joan, from the beginning. I think both Thursday and Morse are terrified about what unknown (even unwitting) things Joan may have done and are reacting based on their upbringings (20 years apart) about "fallen women" and "reputations". We have seen none of Joan's peers weigh in, and it's hard to tell how much of Joan's refusal to be shamed is 1960's defiance (no big deal) wrt new (girls get to have fun too) "norms" versus a refusal to be fenced and have her life defined by her "dirty little secret" Public opinion of "Party Girls", which Joan might easily have become after leaving "mistress status" and her abusive ex, likely hadn't shifted (publically) and party girls (considered only slight removed from call-girls (and rent boys). Participating in stag parties (and "orgies") as nobody's designated girlfriend ) was vaguely seen as "asking for it" after the 3rd drink. Morse may not know all that happened to Joan (voluntarily or involuntarily) but thinks she has not crossed the "hardness" line exhibited by the stag party girls he encountered in this case. Thursday doesn't want to believe she's "another" fallen woman, unlikely of redemption and return to the straight and narrow. Thaw's Morse was always vaguely shocked to be disappointed again by women ... finding out the nice woman he was chastely dating was seeing and screwing someone else ... and he neither despised "working girls" nor did he see them as victims or fallen-angels. Evans' Morse is gallant and polite and respectful and so very confused when women dangle themselves at him (as they did with Thaw's Morse). Knowing they are safe? Testing his self-control for their amusement? Angry and resentful that no matter how much he lusts, he really really wouldn't cross that with a (dirty) girl like them? Doubtless we will see more of this conflict and I agree it was riveting and Evans showed new colors and admirable depth ... the contrast between Morse's reaction and what can be imagined as that of Fancy or Strange is impressive. Morse would have happily stayed in Madonna/whore territory except reality intruded ... as we see with his one-true-love Joan (whose future is uncertain). I do wonder if Joan can stick to the straight and narrow or even wants to .... at least long enough to get properly married and taken out of "circulation"... or if she even wants that ....

But none of it was interesting except as meta -- talking about what the writers intended and/or where they wanted the story and Paige to go .... my eyes glaze over .... and "meta" took over the show .... Elizabeth and Paige doing stuff, having adventures, even talking about them might be interesting .... talking "meta" about the nuances of their relationship, not really. The missions became interchangeable and forgettable with more meta about Paige's clean-hands and clear conscience. FWIW: I thought the twin anvils wrt the nerve agent and the bad intelligence over the wheat were going to reverberate and really color EVERYTHING as doubt wormed its way into P&E relationship with the Center and Claudia .... long before the coup and the summitt ... no such luck ... eta: So much Paige might have worked if it had been balanced with more meat in that sandwich. For those already annoyed, it felt provocatively tone-deaf.

Thinking about the pre-undercover Stan, and the happy times in his marriage to Sandra (which likely were largely similar to bad times except she was silent. He may well have benefited from some type of living-in-the-real-world therapy but I don't remember him being "off" with Aderhold or others at work, except for a sort of immature high-school jock / macho presentation that no one -- least of all Gaad -- was buying. I don't know if cops/FBI or otherwise have the same problem/achilles heel that doctors do but I suspect many jobs can be exploited as "so stressful" with long hours and a need to decompress with peers (whether the golf course or the sports bar) that wives "need to" either accept a lot of abandonment (for themselves and their kids) or need to make some decision about where they want to be in 5 or 10 years. "It's the reality of being a cop's wife" ... and I'd guess Philip could relate in his marriage to Elizabeth. A wife like Sandra may well stay until the kid is in high school (particularly if said-kid recognized the hollowness and the tension) but then (particularly if the kid is noticing) it's just too hard.

In real life, many men are blindsided by unhappy wives wanting divorce, but Stan and Emmerich had plenty of warning -- words and actions -- articulated clearly by Sandra that while she was happy to "work on herself" and the marriage, but that things needed to change in the authenticity and intimacy departments. Stan (but less so Emmerich) might believe that a hot wife and lots of good sex was all that was needed for a "happy marriage", lookiing like happy vacation pictures or a hallmark commercial, but Sandra was clear enough that she wasn't going to settle for that ... going through the motions, being used like a prop -- "my wife"... "mother of my son" without being seen as Sandra.

The interviews, particularly Holly's, raise real questions about what she was told about her character, particularly given how unconvincing she often was ... which became an audience issue ... Given the ambiguity of the writing and the writer's interviews, I'm completely willing to give Holly Taylor a complete pass ... but like an itch that won't go away, I'm still trying to figure out where this show -- imho, ymmv - really went off the rails (afaict) chasing some Paige-mini-me-super-spy storyline that never worked ... seriously, wtf. ... and I don't get a Moffat/Gattis put-down-that-coke-spoon indulgence ... rather a dedicated-to-my-darlings blindness.

Elizabeth has been the "golden child" and Phillip -- for all his intelligence and dedication and skills -- has not ... I think this will what "tears them apart" when Elizabeth's golden status hits a reality check or several. She's beautiful and amazing ... but now her ability to adapt will be judged ... the automatic approval will not transfer (and I was never sure if both Claudia and Gabriel did not play on Elizabeth's vanity) ... I've said before, this transition will probably be very hard on Elizabeth's self-concept, particularly as "better than Phillp" We don't (and won't) know how this intra-KGB civil war will play out ... I'm - doubtless -- over influenced by LeCarre and Tinker-Tailor which allowed that some folks to be allowed to get away with a lot because of their "cred" and serious "hear no evil, speak no evil, speak no evil" loyalties. I don't think that Elizabeth has allies and backers** ... and I have little doubt that Claudia (whereever she is) does ... Elizabeth has been living a luxurious life for 20 years on the KGB's dime ... Claudia ...well, not so much. Gabriel may be able to be helpful in discrete relocation to some virtual pensioner existence in the boondocks ... I think Elizabeth will be too radioactive/ politically charged to do "charm school" duty any time soon. ** this is an important deficit ... Martha and Micha had Gabriel -- however conflicted -- to be their champion. P&E because of their illegal operative status were not (as far as I can imagine) in a position to develop "friends" within the community (the Connor's would have qualified, Tuan would have qualified) .. to testify push some to shove as to their their worthiness .and their adherence to the ideology .. obviously YMMV.

Scarlet fever often followed measles preceded or accompanied by a strep throat which was (as far as I know, for that reason) considered dangerous. ... known complication of measles, feared complication of strep throat (which could be "seen" as white/yellow bumps on the very sore throat / pharynx) It was less scary, and not rare. It tended to recur iirc (if you still had your tonsils) so it was a nuisance . I had my tonsils removed at the remarkable age of 4 (at that time) because of endless earaches, but it was a much bigger deal and $$$ and fear of hemorrhage was considerable. My father objected. Germ theory wasn't very advanced back in civil war days but even when I was kid, when my neighbor D got scarlet fever, she was quarantined to a bedroom and the lights were kept off or low while her mom, dad and two siblings lived in the other one bedroom and living room (tiny house). Short of hospitalization (with its own issues wrt infectious disease) there was only so much "isolation" that could be done in the home and it was a genuine hardship even in the 1950's. There was a yellow Department of Health Quarantine notice on the front door and it was a big deal when (maybe 2 weeks later) we were allowed to peek in and then briefly visit. This would have been maybe 1958 ... I think it was largely a matter of very bad luck (or repeated infection) if you ended up with rheumatic fever and heart damage. MERCK: " In the United States, a child who has a streptococcal throat infection but is not treated has only a less than 1 to 3% chance of developing rheumatic fever. However, about half of the children who have had rheumatic fever develop it again afteranother streptococcal throat infection if that infection is not treated." Lots of kids were sick often, doctors were costly and catching illness from siblings was simply a fact of life ... now we have antibiotic resistance strains but more antibiotics and diagnostic tests to determine if infection and/or damage has occurred ....sigh

About the timeline .... we missed Paige graduating high school (vaguely 2 years unseen?) getting into college, moving to her apartment (the other year I think) until our story resumed ... which is the time when she should have matured and spent 3 years talking to her mother about her future in general and in the KGB as she passed through young adult milestones and problem solving. I think the garage scene might well have been pretty much fully formed before Paige as super-spy was abandoned ... even as far as stepping off the train taking mom and dad to Moscow. The problem of Paige continuing as KGB (*) would be malevolent Claudia (and/or whomever is in charge now) wrt the Jennings and more maddening who-knows-what. * because she still believes in the motherland

I decided that Stavos was an embezzler (why the travel agency was in financial trouble) which -- who was discovered by KGB or maybe FBI auditors -- putting Phillip in a mildly difficult position because of Stavos' suspicions of illegal activity (drugs/money smuggling) but effectively shutting him up ... anyway, Stavos's crime discovered, some restitution made maybe, and the agency can be sold for a goodly amount trading on location and years in business.

Six years time in real life, 9 years in show time ... Paige is arguably more enigmatic, or perhaps just more poorly drawn (the writers having had to change course when Paige as Elizabeth mini-me became a no.can.do). What's her favorite book? Did she ever want a pet? Who's her favorite musician? Did she really choose that bedroom wallpaper all by herself? I have thought that they did intend (almost until the last moment) for Paige to "rise to the occasion", emerge from the garage, Stan dead, to be left behind in America as a bad-ass next-generation KGB agent ... with Henry none-the-wiser and Claudia still managing her assignments.

More unbelievable, she absolutely must never tell Henry what Stan did .... ever ... Personally, I don't think it's plausible that Stan the professional would not have snapped after a few minutes of golden-tongue Phillip and realized he was -- like Odysseus -- being lulled by the Sirens of Denial. Phillip would have been dead or on his knees assuming the position (or both) and for his part, Phillip certainly knew that Elizabeth would blow away Stan in a heartbeat ... andn then she and Paige would escape. Phillip would have successfully played decoy/martyr. R.I.P.

yes, self-awareness isn't always "accurate" (in anyone else's eyes) and one's story evolves throughout life ... things you think about who you are and why you do what you do change-- why you chose your college major, what you most value about your spouse ... a massive heartbreak at 24, may be almost erased in significance at 40. Mommy-bot Elizabeth "reminded" me of Harlow's wire monkey mommy experiments .... personally I think Paige and Henry would be much more screwed up if Elizabeth were the bot described https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/thoughtful-animal/friday-fun-cloth-monkey-wire-monkey-video/ My point is not about Elizabeth, but the writing and the big gaps/inexplicable lapses of P&E written as decent parents, even as they devoted quite a lot of time and effort to "parenting" at different times and Phillip was apparently trusted to be available by both kids wrt homework help and moments of private conversation ... I found Elizabeth's general lack of affection and warm disconcerting ... I was inclined to call this "lazy writing" before the writers' declaring it was intentional ... It didn't enhance but hollow-out. I wondered what happened to the intelligent people-reading P&E from the beginning nuf.

They don't "need" self-awareness ... they would have it ...welcome or not ... developed with life experience, maturation, etc. Most parents see themselvesin their children at different ages -- welcome or not. Like empathy, some people develop this more than others, some people (particularly the brutalized) may actively resist it or demand "stoicism" IMHO, not speaking of self-awareness is part of the problem in the characterizations .... lack of future orientation, hopes, dreams, regrets. Teenagers (having limited life experience) have notoriously underdeveloped self-awareness -- impulsive, rude, inconsiderate, subjective, self-centered. Many are paralyzed by self-consciousness and body-image issues. They're not like usually-blank-eye and sort of passive, like Paige. More like the future-oriented Henry ... it's not something that most people choose or something that needs to be actively sought ... even if many teens, like Holden Caufield, loathe "phonies" ... Elizabeth is a shell of a human being .... often referred to as bot-like .... Phillip with more empathy is more care-worthy Elizabeth's backstory (of hardship and deprivation) did not make me care about her more, instead, her machine-like "toughness" seemed inhumane (particularly in contrast to her supposed "communist ideals") and made her colder. Phillip at least felt disgust and frustration (it wasn't all in his mental machinations, he felt) Elizabeth, in early episodes, repeated soothed Phillip's misgivings saying "you did what you had to do" as if it were a magic incantation to make bad-feelings go away ... as philips said circa EST (to Paige iirc) sometimes you need to feel the bad feelings (or something to that effect)

As I said, I couldn't imagine anyone (grown with responsibilities, experienced in some loss) being devoid of self-awareness ... either IRL or in fiction ... and I found this https://www.readitforward.com/authors/7-of-the-least-self-aware-characters-from-literature/ The writers' conceit explains some of the massive blind-spots or avoidances of the characters (maybe) ...but not really ...

yes, but not everyone has been listening to their interviews or podcasts (I haven't .... and self-awareness is something I take for granted as part of "humanity" I have to admit that this reminded me of the often-made "elitist" charge made against EST (and the elitism many EST graduates assume was conveyed unto themself on "getting it") .... all too reminiscent in turn of the distain of the underclasses and poorly educated as being intellectual/moral/philosophical/artistic vacuums ... which simply is belied by getting off the air-conditioned tour bus. I would say that Stan, like Elizabeth (like my own mother on many -- but not all subjects) simply locked-that-door to avoid thinking about things, self-doubt, regret, guilt, and the rest ... and that those "dark places" often exist as boogyman also exerting their own influence on the course of events or as powder-kegs to explode inopportunely.

I was really shocked by the contention of the writers at the 6 minute mark that P&E were not "self-aware" and that this had been a deliberate decision/conceit all along wrt to their character's development. At this point, I'm not sure I believe what the writers say since they seem to be in the position of being called geniuses by avid fans because _____, to which they return the compliment saying, so incredibly insightful for you to have noticed and -- yes-- we did that on purpose (we are as brilliant as you want to be believe we are) ... Anyway, I don't think that it worked as well as they think because this lack of insight and self-reflection cumulatively made the characters, who in the beginning seemed to spark with intelligence, seem dull and rat-races ("no exit") ... and I suspect that that "character decision" was a KISS writerly dodger (keep it simple stupid), if they don't have self-awareness, we don't have to write it ... and yet, I cannot imagine any immigrant (particularly an immigrant with a big secret and a second language not developing considerable self-awareness because "what other people think/see/feel" is so critical to their survival. Many occupy 3 or more"worlds" in a new country, none of which are natural or "home-like". Their ability to speak/comprehend/read/write their second language can be "modulated" so that they "don't understand" some people (to cut short the interaction) which may be a deliberate dodge. Regardless, it's a hell of a thing to find out AFTER the series has ended .... particularly in view of EST and Phillip recognizing a greener pasture of self-awareness there ... A singe-identity worker-bee consumed with the daily slog might well ** not ** be self-aware, particularly with only a K-12 education, but that's not P&E .... with their two foundational identities, 20 years of history and myriad false-identities created and assumed for work. Such a strange (and artificial) decision for the writers to have made .... if you believe them ... I was actually so confounded by the idea I looked it up https://www.britannica.com/topic/self added * not * ... there are people who live paycheck to paycheck and drunken weekend to same for months and years ... but a lot of that IMHO is numbing the pain of lack of choice ...illegal immigrant laborers either lead exemplary lives to avoid detection or marginal desperate lonely transient lives ... most seem to "figure out" that keeping a low profile (and avoid the police) is in their self-interest.

I thought in her hysterics she was begging to be wacked ..... because she was simply too emotional to be trusted .... obviously ymmv I can be sympathetic to her upset, but her actions were not conducive to survival.

Not to forget that the Tims had the contemporaneous diary and, if you believe Mrs. Tim (the banshee), a contemporaneous audiotape as evidence .... I simply hated the Tims and bringing them back in the final season rekindled a lot of anger ... not least because, afaict, Paige never entirely "got" the burden and ongoing jeopardy that SHE foisted on THEM. (As if she and her team were the only folks endangered.) Mrs. Tim may be a hysteric ... but now 6 years later (there abouts), it's Stan Beeman, g-man, (who they met at the Jennings' house) on the phone. Even Mrs. Tim doesn't deserved to have her life ruined by a blabby 14 year old. All the more reason to be done with the Tims .... I'm just sorry Stan didn't call the Tims at home ... and get Mrs. Tim on the line.

Elizabeth was responsible for the care, feeding training and indoctrination of Paige (with I presume considerable investment by the KGB) -- with her goes the next generation -- my feeling is that Paige's decision to opt-out will be laid at Elizabeth's feet.

A lot of the argument about the exquisite care and vision taken in crafting this ending would be more convincing if Season Five had been more coherent in advancing the narrative and finishing the characters. Frustrating to feel very rushed (with plot lines simply left dangling in the imagination) in season six after the languorous season five (and it's aborted plot lines) to whit the P&E bug-out plan (that Paige seemed to know nothing about after 6 years "undercover") as well as Paige's apparent utter ignorance about the need to STFU when talking to the FBI (even when it's Uncle Stan). They did a lot of things for dramatic effect that make little sense (again Paige inexplicably returning to Claudia's safe house, if you think about it). See also Elizabeth's unholy easy access to the TeaCup's apartment (under FBI Protection). Moffatt and Gattis have been insulting their nay-sayers for years .... many of whom stuck with them gladly through secret ninja assassin Mary (John's wife) who appeared more interested in Sherlock (shades of Stan), although previously unknown Sherlock sister (thought dead and forgotten entirely by infant Sherlock) secreted away in protective custody by Mycroft because she's a psychopath (or something like that) ... was a bridge too far for many (but certainly not all) The audience loved the fast pace, the characters and the cinematography, the wigs and costumes -- so much to love -- and so much reason to have very high expectations .... nuf.

I read the collider article and it is interesting, although I've never liked open ended make-your-own-adventure endings, particularly for complex characters. My first was John Fowle's French Lieutenant's Woman -- which admittedly was interrupted by the author to discuss the two possible endings he was considering and could not decide between. As I said elsewhere days ago, these writers left too many plates spinning when they turned off the lights (IMHO) and too many characters half-baked, intelligence, motivation and knowledge uncertain. In hindsight, the authors aborted various story lines each year and then eventually provided a back-ward glance, but again without "closure" or even much increased clarity. Since the authors created the characters, I really do want and expect their guidance in ending the journey and closing the book. ... at least much more than we were given (and yes, rushed and crowded in the end.)