vanarnd1

This is what threw me off. I ruled Wes out because I thought the lead in to the finale was anyone shown on screen at the end of previous episodes was not going to be under the sheet. I thought the suspense was well done, but if I am remembering the premise correctly, they did kind of "cheat" by showing Wes but still having him die. I am kind of torn on Wes being killed. I pulled for him as a character because of all the trauma he went through, but he always seemed to be the the cause of the team's problems. Even this season I don't think he even gave an good explanation for lying about seeing Mahoney in New York which made things worse for the Keating 5. Also we know the second half of this season will be about finding out how Wes died, and if they had killed off Frank or Nate it wouldn't have had the same emotional impact. Even in that hospital scene I think the visceral reaction of the group was more about the fact that someone from the core group was actually killed over the lies and deception they have all been forced into, and it made them aware of their own mortality. I think going forward the show might have more room to breathe without Wes in the present tense. And a small aside, the music when Nate and Laurel entered the house was the creepiest and most ominous I remember hearing in recent memory. This show really is a emotional roller coaster ride that is unmatched by anything else on TV right now.

I think it some ways it makes sense to do a pretty much complete reboot. With the new story line about the secret society it required a change of scenery and it wouldn't make sense to have the Sleepy Hollow agents still around working with Crane in that case. I think changing things up could have given this show a second wind, but without Abbie it just isn't going to have that spark. Maybe they will get some new viewers but with all of the budgets cuts it seems likely they are just hanging on for another season as a placeholder.

I do agree there is a really ugly side to fandoms (even more so for this show), but I think TPTB have more culpability than just having a different creative vision than fans. Truthfully, this show exploited the emotions of fans for year after year. They had something they knew the viewers were clamoring for (Caskett) and kept teasing it and building it up before pulling it away at the last second. The show was written in a way to maximize angst without much of a payoff. Both Marlowe (and Hawley) took the fans for granted. They assumed they could keep throwing contrived Caskett tension at us and we would always come back no matter what. It was not in good faith and purely used to try and milk as much time and money out of the show as possible. Even though online fans are a small percentage of the overall audience, their reaction(though at times way too extreme) to the declining product was a warning sign that predicted the quiet exit of the casual fans who just gave up on the show without giving any feedback. And overall, if there is one thing I would point to to explain the show's decline is there was never a pivot once Caskett got together. They never had them consistently communicate as a couple or have in depth meaningful discussions. It was mostly superficial and any progress that was made could be thrown out a a moment's notice for a end of season cliffhanger. It was always about the next story line or potential crisis, or finding something to cause tension between them, rather than slowing thing down and really showing them working through issues and having a better understanding for each other. This worked for the first four seasons, but they kept going back to the same well and at some point the show lost all of its substance. There was never a long term plan and things kept going in circles, culminating with the disaster of episode 8.02 and the whole Season 8. You can't write Seasons 5 through 8 the same way as 1 through 4, and that is where Castle ultimately failed IMO. And as a last aside, I agree Season 2 was really good. It was the perfect mix of comedy and drama and used all of the characters effectively. They could never quite replicate that afterward IMO.

Thank you for sharing that information. I always thought what happened was that Goffman was left unchecked and totally changed the planned direction of the show, but it seems that wasn't the case. In some ways it is not surprising, as both Orci and Kurtzman had been in the industry for a while and probably think like many do that shows need something to specifically cater to the white male demo, a la Katrina. I wish they had given more creative power to Iscove, since he was not a Hollywood mainstay and was the creator he would have been more likely to maintain what worked so well in the first half of Season 1. Also I think it hurt the show that Kevin Reily was fired from FOX after Season 1, as he was the person who was greenlighting shows with diverse casts (such as Brooklyn 99 and Empire). I used to think it was a amazing stroke of bad luck that this show had Goffman and Campbell as show runners back to back, but truthfully they still largest represent the mindset of the industry and it was statistically likely that whoever was in charge was going to do something to mess up the direction of the show. I think the thing that will always hurt the most is we saw a brief glimpse of what could have been, only to see it fall apart in such an frustrating and offensive way.

Well to say she was the cause of all the problems ignores the writing throughout all of season 2. IMO, the point when the writing got really bad and became clearly Katrina/CFD focused was "Deliverance" which was 6 episodes before "Pittura Infamante" The tweets you referenced are describing an actor/actress who is the lead character and being given a lot of important story lines, and Abbie's focused had already been diminished creatively long before she was supposedly causing problems on set. Also it is assuming that any health problems she did claim were used as a ploy to cause trouble behind the scenes. She could have had legitimately had health issues either unrelated to the show or because of stress/issues that came up because of the atmosphere behind the scenes that had already shelved her character creatively. To me it is a very slippery slope to assume that someone who claimed to have health concerns was only using that as an way to try and get off a show. Especially since the sources who leak these things are from the TV industry and would be more likely to paint FOX/TPTB as sympathetic. If you want to hold Nicole accountable to the extent that it was her choice to leave that is one thing, but there were issues with the direction of the show since the end of season 1 (including offensive tropes and stereotypes), and to ignore how that affected the character of Abbie onscreen and potentially made it harder for Nicole behind the scenes, is letting TPTB off the hook when they deserve plenty of blame IMO.

My guess is that them bleeding out was meant to be a cliffhanger if there was a season 9 where Castle lived and Beckett died. They likely filmed that short future scene in case the show was canceled so they could have a happy ending instead. It was very abrupt likely because they didn't want to film a long scene and wanted to hedge their bets. It came off very rushed to say the least

Sigh... Those comments are why I was not excited for a renewal. There is going to be months of PR to frame this as if FOX had no control over what happened. It ignores the context of what happened in Season 2 and honestly even in the writing in Season 3. You are going to tell me they really valued Nicole but by episode 2 of this season had already introduced Betsy and Zoey in hopes of being able to replace her. And then they killed off Abbie in a way that showed they didn't learn at all from how they offended fans during the Katrina debacle. It is going to be painful having to slowly weed myself off of this show but it would probably be more painful to try and watch Season 4 at this point Related point; If anyone watches cable news, Melissa Harris-Perry "left" her show a few months ago. While technically it was her choice, it only happened after her show had been preempted for multiple weeks and the network tried to restrict her from talking about non election topics. So even accepting this was Nicole's decision, it can not be forgotten how much the leadership of the show and FOX screwed things up and they should not be let off the hook IMO.

I am glad that Tom will get a steady paycheck out of this as he has always been supportive of Nicole. That is about the only nice thing I can say about the show getting renewed though......

Thanks for posting that video. It is bittersweet to an extent, but it is nice seeing how many viewers really enjoyed and took to heart the character of Abbie Mills. There will be more people following Nicole to her next projects than watching next season of Sleepy Hollow IMO

I think a lot of us are in a similar boat. For many reasons the way they got rid of Abbie is hard to move past. Regarding Mison's contract, my UO is that I don't see him being able to negotiate for a raise. I think the talks might be more logistical, for instance he likely would have to do more filming than last year and that has to be worked out, but I am not sure how much leverage he could have for such a low rated show. The delay in getting a deal done for season 4 likely involves other production costs and hammering out a workable budget overall IMO. I just hope either way there is an announcement soon so there can be closure on the situation

Also it is very self serving because jobs aren't really being lost, a new show will replace Castle so other people will get a chance to work. So I guess Jon wants people to be loyal to the show indefinitely so he can coast by with a steady paycheck. Kind of sums up the shows mindset in a nutshell TBH. I haven't watched a full episode since 8x03, only flicking to watch bits and parts of a few episodes, but I am sorry for everyone who hung in with the show this season just to have the Stana news come out now. It is not surprising that it seems likely the show is going to try and limp along for another season despite having nothing left creatively. The only thing that matters is the bottom line so if syndication can keep the show profitable, it doesn't really matter if they put out a high quality product or care about the fans. I will try my best to keep the fond memories of the show early run, but it has been sad to watch the decline of the last few years and see the greed and callousness of TPTB on full display.

The staffing move that should have been done was firing Campbell during the mid-season finale and putting someone credible in charge who could have worked things out behind the scenes and gotten Nicole back on board. Anything at this point is too late IMO. Like a lot of people have been saying, I have no idea what TPTB are expecting. The audience had shrunk a lot already during the season and it feels like almost anyone who was watching the show is really upset at the finale and is questionable to tune in next season. Who knows maybe syndication will drag it along but they better get ready to deal with CW level ratings.

The one thing you have to give credit to Goffman for is that he was honest about what his intentions were. In all of his interviews he kept building up Katrina and ignoring Abbie so it was easy to tell what his plan was. Like you said Campbell was willing to mislead the fans in an attempt to maintain ratings. I think he knew for most of season 3 that he was going to get rid of Abbie but didn't mind making up BS about a Ichabbie "slow burn" to get us interested in the second half of the season. And his finale post mortem was just insulting with the "Abbie served her purpose" stuff, and then trying to backtrack and act as if there was more to it than that. Saying sacrifice is not unique to Abbie even though she has done this a million times. And trying to get us to believe that it would ever be Ichabod doing the same thing, he is incredibly disingenuous and not someone I would trust at this point. It is sad that a show with so much potential had two terrible show runners back to back. Like you said the disconnect between the fans and TPTB was just so massive. They viewed Abbie as expendable, while so many viewed her as essential. I don't know how you take over a show and than just think you can ignore your viewers and do whatever you want and the show won't suffer. I just feel so bad for Nicole because she was so enthusiastic about her role early on only to have it ruined by people who don't have a fraction of the talent she does. If only the original people who cast Nicole had stayed on board because they seemed to realize the importance of the character. This is the worst I have ever felt about a TV show.

That Tumblr essay hit on so many interesting things. A big point out of that was how different and multi-layered Abbie was in Season 1. Back then she seemed to have her own priorities and desires and was actually given the chance to be upset about things, instead of how for much of the last 2 seasons her character has only been portrayed as a witness only meant to sacrifice for the greater good. Once the show started down the path of Ichabod's family/personal life and his destiny at the expense of Abbie, they never fully turned it around. And I never thought of the historical context previously like the writer had, but it could have been so meaningful if a show involving American history had been able to break these kind of stereotypes instead of falling into them. If there was ever a case study of why it is essential for there to be more diversity in Hollywood behind the scenes, Sleepy Hollow is the perfect example.

I could feel a little bad for Iscove since it is unclear how much input he has in the storyline, but really anyone involved in the show should just go radio silent for at least the next week or so. I don't except him to go against the company line, but to try and police the fan's reaction right after such a terrible episode is just ridiculous. Your show played on fan emotion to boost ratings when it was teasing Ichabbie, the least you can do is let people express their hurt and not get defensive about it

This was really the problem IMO. I think both Goffman and Campbell always viewed the character of Abbie as a necessary evil. They realized they had to give her screentime to placate fans, but were never committed to her creatively. They didn't want to deal with the idea of having to write Ichabbie. Like Goffman's long game was having Katrina replace Abbie, I think Campbell was trying to soften the blow of Abbie leaving by giving us a lot of Betsy Ross and Zoe early on, before realizing they just had to tease Ichabbie as long as possibly before abruptly writing Abbie off the show at the very end. On one level it is vexing to me, because TPTB must realize on some level they are likely hurting themselves financially by doing this, but when you think about it, how many times do we see movies/tv shows with diverse characters do well, only for Hollywood to remain overwhelmingly white and male. Sometimes bias ends up playing a bigger role than everything else

I think it would be actively offensive for most fans to watch them try to incorporate a new witness into the show. Usually after a bad finale for most shows I try to give the next season premiere a chance, but I am not sure If I stomach this. They are in for a rude awakening next fall if the show gets renewed. It will be a sharp drop off IMO.

Well the weird thing is according to EW, FOX gave them a statement saying they were discussing a fourth season http://www.ew.com/article/2016/04/08/sleepy-hollow-death-network-statement "The executive producers, studio, and network released this statement to EW: “The finale featuring the tragic death of Abbie Mills was a very dramatic ending and a bold move for the show, but Sleepy Hollow has always been known for its shocking finales. We feel we provided a wonderfully poignant conclusion for Abbie and showed some of the best moments between the Witnesses that we’ve seen on-screen. We thank Nicole Beharie for bringing Abbie and Sleepy Hollow to life. We are currently discussing season 4, and should the series be picked up for another season, we have some exciting scenarios and new avenues we want to explore.” I never remember a situation where a network publicly said that were discussing a show's future, usually you only hear official renewal announcements. I just find it so painfully ironic that the second they get of Abbie all of the sudden there is this burst of optimism regarding next season. It just makes no sense to me.

I hadn't considered previously that maybe this wasn't fully her decision, but in hindsight, the timing of everything is suspicious. It odd how during the middle of Season 2 or 3 we never heard rumors about Nicole being unhappy, it is only leaked by sources once she is taken off the show. At this point it only benefits the network to have people think it was her choice, otherwise they look much worse. When you think about it, she could have had leverage if this information had come out while the show was filming, as it would maybe force the network to address her concerns, instead it seems much more likely the network leaked this information for damage control. And of course the sad part is that if Nicole publicly went against the network's version of events, it could possibly hurt her job prospects in the industry. I was one of the people who didn't really consider it a possibility they would get rid of Abbie during the mid season finale, but it is jarring thinking about how close that was to happening. Maybe she did want to leave, but I feel like if she gotten assurances from CC that things would be better she could have been convinced to stay. From the tone of the post-mortem, I don't think TPTB were tripping over themselves to keep her around. The whole situation is just so sad and frustrating the more I think about it.

Yeah from that dialogue and the CC interview, I think there still was a gap between how important TPTB thought of Abbie and how the fans felt about her. The only way they could think of to have Abbie exit was to frame it as her assisting Crane and not her own journey. It is the same underlying problem as Season 2 just packaged differently. We will never find out, but I will always be curious about how the behind the scenes stuff played out. Maybe Nicole just wanted to move on no matter what, but I certainly didn't get the impression from the writing in the first half of the season that CC was trying to appease her. And they had a lot of notice she was leaving so they could have written her out in many different ways. even leave the door open for Nicole to return, but went with the sacrificing trope for the 50th time. It is disappointing on so many levels.

The most agonizing part was the Ichabbie quasi-puragtory scenes. There was so much there between them, the affection and tenderness, and the whole time to know that it was ending, it was really heartbreaking. It goes without saying how amazing Tom and Nicole are. Wishing them nothing but the best.

It is so cruel how we were all hoping for a renewal, and now on the same night that Nicole is leaving the show, the rumors come out that discussions for next season are underway. I can't imagine watching this show without Abbie, or them trying to have her soul in another person. I can't believe this was the rout TPTB took. They were stringing as along the whole time. They must have known for a while Nicole would be leaving and they couldn't give us Ichabbie explicitly at any point? And the way they had Abbie sacrifice herself again to underwhelming get rid of the HO, it just feels like such a waste. This makes me feel so dumb for being invested in this show in the first place.

I think there has been a certain amount of complacency for large parts of the season. I understand they wanted to start with a clean slate after Season 2, but they didn't have much of a sense of urgency or seem to appreciate that they had to draw back in fans who had left the show. To give us a lot of Betsy Ross and Zoe early on was a big mistake, and when it seemed like they were finally course correcting they have thrown in more delaying tactics as if people would be looking forward to hoping for Ichabbie for another whole season. As you said it would have been correct to just go for it. Even if the weren't completely sure how to write it, the alternative of teasing but avoiding the relationship was not going to make many people happy especially for a show that needed a boost. They were planning for a long game when it is quite possible this will be the last season and they won't have time to see it come to fruition. It is a shame because we might end up looking back on Sleepy Hollow on "what could have been" for many reasons(Goffman being the biggest).

I didn't watch much of this episode and haven't watched much of this season, but I was was confused/ in awe when Huck and Quinn were talking about Olivia going too far. Like almost every character in this show has links to multiple murders but somehow playing dirty politics to win an election is too much? The morals of this show operate in the twilight zone honesty.

IMO, I think part of it is TPTB believe in the "Moonlighting Curse", which is the idea that if you put the two lead characters in a show together, that it will cause the spark and anticipation of the relationship to go away and that fans will no longer be interested. This idea has influenced the writing in shows like "Bones" and "Castle" previously. And similar to those shows, Sleepy Hollow can't afford to rule out Ichabbie completely, because at least a good portion of the fanbase is interested/invested in them getting together. So the result is TPTB being very insulting to the audience and trying to have its cake and eat it to, as in not actually putting them together, but constantly giving us "relationship-like" Ichabbie moments so we as the viewers keep watching and hoping they will become a couple even though that doesn't seem to be the plan at this point And that is how we end up with Danny and Betsy Ross, who's main purpose is to get in the way of Ichabbie more than anything else IMO. Despite how annoyed and angry a lot of people have been over choices in the last two episodes, and how many other shows have upset fans using these sort of tactics, this is pretty common for TV standards. And that is why I don't have much much faith in Campbell at his point because I think he is happy to keep stringing the fans along on this front if the show gets renewed.