ILoveReading

This may have been the writers intentions but that isn't the way it came across. Sam might have said his greatest sin was letting Dean down but that was immediately followed "What happens the next time you decide not to trust me. Who are you going to turn to, another angel, another vampire?" The pronouns put the burden of trusting Sam on Dean. Even though it was Sam's actions that caused Dean to lose trust. I'm not getting into it but will quickly say this was the big problem with Sam's so called apology in Fallen Idols. Sam can say its his fault all he wants, but when he follows it up with "I went to her to get away from you. Ruby didn't make me feel like your little brother." Ruby pulled Sam's strings more effectively than a marionette controls a puppet and the shows refusal to bring this up or all Dean to bring it just reinforces this. So she didn't treat him like Sam was implying Dean did. Then the icing on the cake, Sam lists all the ways Dean needs to change his behavior but says nothing about his own. Add this all up and that scene very much comes across as 'its only my fault because you made me do it in the first place." Dean apologizing for not trusting Sam reinforces this. In Citizen Fang, Dean never actually says the words, "you did" when he says "Benny never let me down," But the implication is there loud and clear. This is the way I felt watching both Sacrifice and Fallen Idols. A far more effective way of wording this would have been "What happens the next time I give you reason not to trust me. I forced you to rely on an angel and a vampire instead of your own brother." The way it was worded came across exactly like Fallen Idols. "I let you down, mostly because you let me down." This is my problem with Sam since s5 and why none of his redemption arcs work for me. Sam's mistakes, screw ups and flaws are presented as the other people not accepting Sam's actions, not the actions themselves. As for Sam not telling Dean he was back, I remember when we first go the spoilers that Sam wasn't going to tell Dean he was back. All indications were that Sam was just Sam only with PTSD. The majority of Sam fans praised Sam for this, and called him selfless and scarficing his happiness so Dean could have his, and noble. One person even called Sam a martyr. So this is why I tend to see this as something Sam would do because his biggest fans seemed to think its very in character. Like, @gonzosgirrl said, I don't give Sam a free pass because almost everything Souless Sam did, I can name the equivalent that real Sam did. After s8, not telling Dean he was back is something I can see real Sam doing. Real Sam participated in human sacrifice. He can use people to get what he wants, (Jack). As for no one telling Dean Sam was back, thats also part of a bigger problem. One thing the show likes to reinforce is that Dean doesn't respect other people boundaries. I agree with this, but other people are given a free pass when they make decisions for Dean.

No idea if this is a joke or a spoiler

I know a big deal is made about the nurse but what's forgotten is Sam's actions at the end of The Rapture. He was so desperate for a hit of demon blood, he ripped out a woman's throat. That wasn't part of a plan or to attempt to save anyone that was just straight up a junkie needing a fix. That's what caused Dean to draw the line and lock Sam up. He was clearly a danger to himself and others around him at that point. Sam himself also told Dean to do whatever he needed to stop him if Sam went down that road. Detoxing from demon blood and the side effects were completely unknown. It's not like detoxing from Heroin or alcohol. Being in the room with Sam had a high potential to put whoever was there in danger. So Bobby and Dean can't be faulted for taking precautions to keep themselves safe. Sam wasn't' alone. Dean and Bobby were outside the door. When Sam had a crisis they ran in immediately and when Sam had to be restrained we saw there was padding under the cuffs. So Dean and Bobby just didn't leave him in there to rot. (not saying you were saying that) As for when Sam beat Dean, Dean was actually crying when Sam threw the first punch. Dean tried to appeal to Sam. He just wanted him to ditch Ruby. Dean was beaten on the ground when Sam strangled him. There is no excuse for that. Sam had clearly won at that point. It was a display of dominance.

JJ's rules. lol

I agree. In my experience comic book enthusiast are just like regular people, but Dabb does love his stereotypes.

I think they're posing as comic book nerds.

For me it was the Goat God episode. (12.18, I think). I felt like Dean was shoe horned into that episode and even Jensen wasn't feeling it. It just felt like all Dean scenes were going through the motions.

From the sounds of it, we are barely getting any Michael in present time, and it sounds like the show is going to cut even more time out of it. This is the 2nd wayward article. Guess we know where Dabb and co. priorities lie.

Don't take that as gospel. I just saw the drop on the site and then it was on blind gossip. It could be a case of chicken or the egg. I honestly dont' know. lol

Please don't judge me, but I occasinally read SPN gossip after a con because sometimes someone will post meet and greet tidbits. Apparently that info was an anonymous drop at site and someone emailed it to that the blind gossip, according to what I read. So take with a huge grain of salt.

I agree. This is why I feel like Sam did end up coming out smelling like a rose, both s4 and 5. There were plenty of other ways that speech could have been written to get Dean back on board without dismissing or belittling everything that happened. "Dean, I know your mad, but you can kick Sam's ass later. I'll even help you, but I know you son. I know that if there was a chance to save Sam, not matter how small and you didn't take it, you would never be able to live with yourself." Same message but takes Dean's trauma into account. The way the show went about it, tells me they never thought Sam was wrong. It was always on Dean because he was bossy. Its a major problem I've had with Sam's characterization since s5. Sam doesn't have any flaws. His flaws are because other people don't accept his actions, not the actions themselves A case can be made for this. But I personally think that neither Sam nor Dean like each other very much. One thing, I've noticed is that whenever Sam or Dean lose their filter neither one really has anything nice to say about the other.

For me they are linked. I didn't have an issue with Sam in s4. I was actually enjoying both Sam and Dean's story and looked forward to watching Sam's redemption the next season. I thought it got off to a good start with Dean not willing for forgive and forget and Sam actually acting contrite. But then Fallen Idol's happened and everything fell apart. I don't think this it was a coincidence that s5 fell apart as badly as it did (for me) around this episode as it was when Kim Manners died. The further this show gets from his death the further it becomes clear to me he was the real reason Dean got the focus that he did. Because I think he was the only one that saw Dean as an important character outside of Sam. Aside for Swan Song, that is my most despised episode.

I disagree here. Sure Sam did bad things but the narrative really didn't call him out on much of it. The strangling, choosing a demon over your brother and Sam calling Dean weak was dropped or ignored with very little mention. Sam left at the end the first episode so the issues between the brothers were never really addressed properly. Then Fallen Idols dropped the whole mess in Dean's lap. Dean was specifically written out of character to justify Sam's speech. Dean didn't treat Sam like that in s4. Sam made his own decisions. Sam didn't go to Ruby to get away from Dean. He went to Ruby because he wanted too. The show can't have its cake and eat it too. Sam thought Dean was weak. So not sure how Dean made Sam feel weak, in turn. Sam was already in Ruby's grasp when Dean was in hell. Not exactly bossy mean Dean the narrative was trying to push. Sam wasn't in control with Ruby, ever. She manipulated him every which way possible, yet that was never addressed. Just that she made him feel strong and Dean didn't. That was the end of it. Sam more than earned Dean's lack of trust but Sam expected to be forgiven right away and the rest of the season turned everything on Dean and made him prove and apologize 3 times for not trusting Sam. Kripke even said Dean had to learn to love Sam more and that Dean wouldn't have shown up on the field in s1. So its clear what the authorial intent was. Nothing from Sam about how he had to change his behavior. All Sam listed was how Dean had to change. Dean wasn't give a chance to defend himself. So not only was the burden of trust put on Dean. The narrative went on to make him apologize again in ep18, and again in episode 22 for not being more trusting and treating Sam like a child. We, the audience were also told Dean was weak because he wanted to say yes to Michael. When it was Sam, despite not being able to even over come a simple ghost possession, it was the best plan ever. With everyone jumping on the band wagon. In s4 Sam spent the entire season patting himself on the back, acting like he was all that and the only one that could stop it, the the best way weak Dean could help was to say out of his way. The last thing I wanted to watch in s5 was it being reinforced that he really was all that, the only one who could stop it, and the best way weak Dean could help was to say out of his way. For this Dean fan all I got was Dean apologizing repeatedly to the guy who lied and tried to strange him, Death telling him he needed to get out of Sam's way, being told he was no longer part of the story and as the cherry on top apparently, not only can Dean be replaced by a plastic toy but the plastic toy did a better job. Dean couldn't even be the catalyst that allowed Sam to access his memories. My friend said it best. If it was cloudy or Dean treated the toy like Sam treated the amulet and kept it in the glove compartment the Dean would be dead and the world would be burning. All in all, I'd say Sam did come out smelling like a rose and the hero of the story. The way s5 played out will never not leave me bitter as a Dean fan.

I went back and read the transcript of the episode. People who were infected were controlled by the siren to do what he told them. This is what he tells Sam and Dean. I've always interpreted this this as the Siren telling Sam and Dean to get stuff off their chests, and then he orders them to fight to the death. So no, I dont' think Sam and Dean wanted each other dead. The siren told them to kill each other. He didnt' tell them what to say. Dean lists Sam's actions. "The lies and the secrets." Sam once again attacks Dean's character. "you're weak." This isn't the first time Sam has had those thoughts. He says pretty much the same things in Asylum under Ellicot. "I'm not pathetic like you." He also attacks Dean's character in The Purge. He basically called Dean a selfish coward. Neither of those incidents have demon blood involved. I think there is multiple scenes throughout the series where Sam seems to think Dean is weak. This is why the whole so-called redemption arc in s5 didn't work for me. If Sam is likes demon blood because it makes him feel in control, he didn't need to get away from weak whiny Dean. That's how Sam saw him. Confirmed in both On The Head of a Pin and Levee. Which is it Sam? I would love it if we would get scenes where he does. The problem is whenever Dean tries to stand up for himself the narrative punishes himself for it. He tried to draw a line in s4 and got called a whiny brat and a princess. He tried to stand up for him self in s5 and ended up apologizing 3 times for not trusting the guy who spent and entire season lying. He tried in s6 when he though something was up with Sam. Bobby basically told him to shut up and get in the car. He tried to walk away from Sam after the whole Benny thing but Cas went and got Sam and said they needed him. Dean tried to stand up for himself with regards to Jack and got blamed by Sam if Jack went bad. he tried to stand up for himself with Mary and ended up apologizing for trying to control Mary. He tried to confront God and was told he was confusing God with his father. He tried to point out how dangerous hunting was, and Jody told Patience not to listen to Dean. The Mentalist is a favorite of mine for this very reason. Its' one of the few times on the show Dean got to give the boo hoo speech and it didn't come back on him. The whole 'its God' thing isnt' an excuse since Dean stood up to him.

This is true and it would make sense for Sam to be shaven in Dean's head. But there would be some scenes taking place in present time and outside of Dean's head as well and Jared would need the beard for those. Logistically it doesn't work.

I like this idea too but they told Jensen he couldn't have a beard because of flashbacks. So if this is in Dean's head than Sam would still need the beard in present time. Jared has clearly shaved. I also don't beleive the writers are that clever.

If he's really hot out they sometimes will block and practice scenes in short sleeve shirts or shirts with the sleeves of off. We might not even see the short sleeves in the finished project if they have a jacket on.

The Siren and the demon blood didn't put those thoughts in Sam's head. The just made him angry enough to say them. Despite Sam's words that Dean resisted longer than anyone would, his actions away from Dean didn't support that. Sam called Dean weak in the siren ep. That was followed up On the Head of a Pin when he told Ruby Dean wasn't strong enough and when he was in his own head calling Dean weak. Sam wasn't under the influence of the siren or the demon blood at those times but they're consistent with what he said during that time. When Sam strangled Dean, he had already won the fight. He did it as a display of dominance. The show never gave Dean a pass for the things he did under the mark, or under the influence of the Penny. Sam told Dean to stop being mad and Garth ended up lecturing him on appreciating Sam. If Sam is going to be given a pass because of the influence of demon blood, then Dean need to be given a pass on the Gadreel thing because he was under the influence of 26 years of John's emotional abuse where something happening to Sam was a punishable offense. Not to mention Sam basically demanded Dean put him on a pedestal and guilt ed him for having other friends. Sam tells Dean he's scared to be alone but then gets jealous when Dean has other people in his life. make up your mind Sam. As for what Sam says, it often doesn't match when he does. At the end of Love Hurts, Sam tells Dean he won't judge him, yet in ep 22 where God and Co. are all piling on Dean about him not being able to hurt Amara, Sam sits there in silence. When Dean says he doesn't think he's strong enough (despite actually being strong enough to break her hold twice) Sam never once actually tries to encourage Dean. I found Sam patronizing in that scene more than supportive. Whats wrong with "yeah, I'll do it if I have to but your stronger than you think." The next episode Sam gets pissy when Dean asks him to stay behind and reminds Dean he's now the chosen one. It' like on Big Bang Theory. Leonard says time and time again that he supports Penny trying to make it as an actress but in the tell vs show he really doesn't. He discourages more than he actually supports it. This is how Sam's apologies and support usually come across. He says the right words when something he wants is on the line but later when he gets what he wants or he screws up its everyone else's fault because they were bossy or they won't let Sam grow up or they had friends other than Sam. Sam says he understand why Dean does what he does but then he says John's parenting style works on Dean. If Sam really thinks that, then nope he doesn't understand Dean at all. The only person preventing Sam from growing up is Sam. He's 35 year old. He needs to stop using that as an excuse. he's a big boy who has a history of doing what he wants regardless of what Dean says or does. So this whole "Dean is controlling" is overstated by the show, IMO. I'll concede that Dean does try to control whether Sam lives or dies, but Sam's days to day choices are on him. If Sam isn't' a leader, its not because Dean didn't let him grow and Mature. Even when Dean announced it was a dictatorship the next episode he ended up locked in the panic room with Sam going his own way. Actions over words, every time for me. Dean tells Sam, Ruby is bad news. Sam runs off with Ruby. Dean says the it can't possibly be God. Sam dubs himself God's chosen and runs into the cage. Dean says the men of letter are bad news. Sam joins, lies to Dean and manipulates him and gets his way. When things go sideways, he appoints himself the new leader. Dean with Amelia- in or out but make a choice. Sam with Benny- dump him or I dump you. Or trying to force Dean to be responsible for Jack. Or Dean telling Sam to stop searching for a way to break the deal or not use the book of the damned. Sam did al that regardless. Dean's bossy, but controlling not so much. IMO, other than literal life or death matters, I actually find Sam the more dominate controlling brother, who expects obedience from Dean. IMO, its not Sam that has to emerge from Dean's shadow, its Dean that has to emerge from Sam's. He needs to realize he matters outside of Sam. But unfortunately, this is a lesson his so called family keeps reinforcing. If anyone needs space and time to find himself, its Dean. His actions with the mark were the same. He wasn't actually supportive of Dean. Sure he went through the motions of removing it but Sam's attitude was 'Dean's getting worse, Deans' given up." Not really true. The level of violence Sam and Cas were showing was on par with Dean. Cas and Sam were willingly participating in human sacrifice (something else the show swept under the rug). While its true Charlie made a decision to run off. Sam, IMO, is guilty of making the situation more dire than it actually was. If Dean became a demon again. it would be Dean's worst nightmare but not the worlds. Because demon Dean wasn't evil. This is why IMO, Sam does bare some responsibility. Charlie made an a choice based on mis information. As for the whole Fallen Idols, Dean was compromising the case thing, Sam needs to take his own advice and look in a mirror. Because he did the exact same thing in Children Shouldn't play with Dead things. He dismissed everything Dean said because to the situation with John. He compromised the case. Plus, it was Sam that accepted Dean back after the Gadreel thing. Dean kept trying to ditch Sam. So if Sam was going to work with Dean maybe he needed to let go of his anger because he's creating a hostile work environment. TL/DR version; Sam is very much a do as I say not as I do kind of person.

I think its safe to say that Dean is back

Yup. I expect Dabb to say Dean did this just to protect Sam and Jack. Nothing about him trying to stop Lucifer and give humanity a fighting chance. It seems the purpose of the Michael storyline is to allow Sam to take his rightful place as leader, for Cas to be Jack's role model since Sam and Dean are busy. For Jack to prove he's useful without powers and to force the waywards back into the story becasue Michael would totally be interested in teenagers with exactly one partially successful hunt to their credit. Dean's part- to feel guilty, and despressed and see how weak he is and how he head Sam back from his true purpose. This story feels like its about everyone but Dean or to make him learn multiple lessons. Until someone tells him to suck it up.

Given the way the show has handled Dean's PTSD in the past, the aftermath story doesn't excite me that much. I'd rather they just drop it. My guess- Cas- will tell Dean's he's disappointed in him Mary- how could you. Bobby- idijt Sam- you promised to let me take care of Lucifer. Stop treating me like a child.

Yup. With about 2-3 minutes of flashbacks. So I'd say overall we're going to actually have less Michael and we did Demon Dean.

We can definitively say Dean is back. I guess this is why Jensen said that he doesn't know how to play Michael yet in the gold panel. He never actually got a chance to play him. I finally listened to that question and I didn't find Jared's answer cagey. "It's like when I got back from the cage, maybe something is wrong. He's basically saying that Dean's back and trying not to say Dean's back.

My final opinion on the purge speech. We can know the writers narrative intentions becasue the writers tweeted them. They said Sam was coming from a place of honesty. So I do believe its fact that they believed in the words they had Sam say. But IMO, s9 did nothing but throw Dean under the bus. There was the whole Gadreel thing, then lying to Sam. Taking on the mark in a spur of the moment decision that was only going to end in failure to Dean when he eventually gave into the price, and the season ended with Dean becoming his worst nightmare. From a viewer standpoint I enjoyed it because I felt like Jensen's acting was on another level this season, but from a character standpoint this season wasn't kind to his characterization at all. When Sam dubbed himself God's chosen and wants to do something stupid, like running into the cage we get very special episode telling Sam how brave and strong and special he is. Then they made Cas screw up worse so Sam would get a free pass. IMO, Sam's I lied seemed only to apply to him saying he wouldn't save Dean becasue that's was all that was ever addressed or mentioned again. Unfortunately, for them they did what every other writer and show runner has done. They underestimated Jensen. They couldn't control his facial expressions, his tones, how he delivers his lines or his reactions to things said to Dean. If the audience came out on Deans' side, it was purely thanks to Jensen, once again elevating the writing and flipping it upside down. IMO, there is no way the authorial intent wasn't on Sam's side. Jensen's specialty is to act against the writing.

I watched Lucifer (tv show) and every couple of weeks the writers release script titles, talk about new characters and potential storylines. Everyone gets me more and more excited for the new season. I don't get SPN's desire to keep everything so close to the vest. They should be able to tease without giving away. At this point I honestly wonder if there is anything to tease. Releasing the clip, or some kind of promo can only get buzz going.