ILoveReading

Or this is the way that they'll give the story to Sam. When Michael gets out, Sam will act all humble and say its his fault and how he has to be the one to take responsibility. He'll be the one to sacrifice himself. It will be called a sacrifce, not being weak and a quitter. Dean won't get to say I told you so, and Sam looks comes out the BDH. Either way Dean looks weak.

This is the cutest thing I've ever seen.

This is what irritates me. Dean said repeatedly that Michael was close to getting out. Neither Sam nor Cas listened to him. They treated it as it was walk in the park. They just assumed he was quitting and giving up. Sam hit him to make him behave. So why all of a sudden are they surprised it's not that easy. I wouldn't be surprised if Michael is possessing Jack. (I think it was @Aeryn13 who guesed that). If Michael did possess Jack it would fit with Jack in the Box. It sounds like it will be the episode where Michael get loose. Can't let Dean contain him too long. Also from filming sightings the case will mostly be investigated by Sam and Rowena. They were spotted on location filming together. Jensen was not. So he's probably back at the bunker angsting over Michael.

I felt more watching this than I did the entire 300th ep. I can picture Jensen reading to his kids. He even made the bad part sound soothing, lol.

Yup, I can't think of a single thing Dean improved when he got back. There was nothing to indicate things in the Bunker would be better with him there. In fact you could make a case they got worse because now poor put upon Chief can only sleep 2 hours instead of three. They even had Jack utter the worlds. "Dean don't matter." They didn't give Cas any dialogue to counter that either. When Cas was dead during the early part of s13, I felt his absence. There was definitely a gap that Cas filled when he came back. Dean was delighted to see him and we had a scene to that effect. With Dean, not so much. I'm not saying that Sam had to fall apart without Dean, but they could have even had some lines, like Sam telling one of the AU people that its easier to hunt a certain type of monster because of Dean's method. Or when Dean came back we find out he worked with some of the AU people on their aim. He's the marksman after all. Or have Sam thank Dean for mentoring some of the younger hunters on how to track a certain monster. Having him back allowed him to get 5 hours of sleep or whatever. But doing that undermines Dabb's determination to make Sam the sole leader. I don't understand why they can't be co-leaders with Dean doing the field stuff and Sam doing the behind the scenes stuff. It fits their characters. Even Jared said he doesn't see Sam that way.

Except it really wasnt' challenging for him. He seemed to relish it. No only did Michael have no real presence in that first ep, either did Dean. I didn't feel like anyone really missed him. One neatly groomed grief beard doesn't count.

Jensen did also receive performer of the week from TVLine for Soul Survivor. He received and honorable mention twice for Regading Dean and for the scene with Chuck. I can't remember the episode name right now. I still can't believe he didn't get it for Nihilism.

Maybe I could believe Dabb's intention with that remark was simple math if it wasn't for the other stuff he said and did (or maybe that should be didn't do). Dabb had been trying unsuccessfully to make Sam the leader for 2 years and it wans't working. Because as we've seen with the core four, Dean clearly dominates (which is Jensen, not Dabb doing this intentionally). So when he had the opportunity he wrote him out and brought in some flunkies for Sam. He even had demons act OOC. Demons asking Sam if they can be king of hell? Really? And then taking off from a fight they were winnng because Sam stomped his foot and yelled boo? Really? He gave no thought or focus to Michael in that ep whatsoever and what we did get was cut. This also fits with Dabb saying it was Dean holding Sam back. But those things together, along with Dabb basically throwing Jensen to the wind in terms of the direction with Michael (I'm an island unto myself) and ignoring the character in his ep, IMO, Dabb's intentions couldn't be more clear.

Dabb and I have a very different definition of fundamental. Words don't mean much if you dont' back them up. On paper sure, but in terms of storyline, not so much. Why use the term breathing room. That implies other characters cant have lines or shine if Dean is on screen. You don't have to write Dean out to give to characters lines. A good writer should be able to balance it. Big Bang Theory has twice as many characters lead characters (7 i believe) and less than half the time to tell a story in. About 18 minutes per episode and they still manage. Arguably Sheldon is the dominate character and they don't have to write writer him out of an episode for other characters to breath. Jared and Jensen only work part time these days too. You dont need to have Dean off screen to give other characters more lines due to that fact alone. Then why go there in the first place if they had no intention of letting Jensen play Michael. It didn't have to be an all or nothing situation as people made many awesome suggestions about how to keep the story and not lose Dean. . There was also Dabb's words that dropping the episode after 2 episodes was an insult to Jensen. So Dabb is contradicting himself. Considering how little Dean actually factored into the first half, I don't really seeing it speaking to the value of Dean. For now. Lets see how things go in the next few eps and whether the focus shifts to Sam. I don't think Dabb has a lot of use for Dean, we can agree to disagree.

You could name him Dean, since underneath Dean is a big old teddy bear

Every single time we've seen Michael he's been ridiculously easy to take out. So that also undermines the stakes.

https://tvline.com/2018/09/03/supernatural-spoilers-season-14-episodes-without-dean/ IMO, what Dabb said here is just that. By removing Dean it give other characters breathing room.

I agree. Nilishm was really the only Dean focused ep we had. The following eps that should have been focused on Dean, and what he was going through were all about poor little Sammyikins feelings. It just made Sam look like a self-centered hypocrite becasue when he wants so sacrifice himself he certainly doesn't care about leaving Dean behind. Dean usually doesn't even cross Sam's mind. See- I Think I'm Going to Like it Here. When Sam was in his dreamscape leaving Dean behind didn't even enter in his decision that it was time to go. So much for "not leaving his brother out there alone." Its like when Berens claimed he doesn't see Dean as a bully, but if you (general you) watch his eps that is how bullies behave. They use size and strength to intimdate. Beren's even said Dean pulled the gun and wasn't going to shoot which means means he did it as a bluff. They had him treat the other Kaia that same way. He also made poor poor little Jacky cry. So why should I believe Berens when he say he doesn't' see Dean has a bully when his writing contradicts it. Same with Dabb. Just this season, Jensen asked Dabb for some direction on how to play Michael. Dabb was no help. This is not my interpretation it's Jensen's own words. "I was an island unto myself" Because I know the rebuttal is "Well, Dabb trusts Jensen" I'll say that isn't the point because Jensen was struggling to find Michael's voice and he ASKED for help. If Dabb's intention was to focus on Michael, he should have been able to answer Jensen here. Dabb was quoted as saying that he had to have Dean off screen in order to let other characters breath. Again, not interpretation but fact. Backed up by how little Michael was actually featured in the premier. He had two unimportant scenes. There was also his comment that the only reason Sam wasn't' a leader before now was because Dean held him back. So for me, its not that Sam was made a leader, its that they did it at the expense of Dean. Again I didn't interpret these thing from the way Dean appeared on screen. They are actual things Dabb said and did. Dabb probably salivated at writing a Dean free ep. I certainly didn't' buy his words that it was "hard." He obviously didn't find it that hard. Agree. There was no reason Jensen couldn't have played Michael in episode 9. Imagine the scene with Jack, with Jensen. It would be so much better. I don't think he is either. Because he was vocal about demon Dean not lasting, he would have no reason to think if they told him that Michael would last until ep, 10 (for example. I have no idea what they said) that Dabb wasn't being truthful. While technically true, it was still a lousy thing to do since his time as Michael probably wasn't much more than Demon Dean. If you look past Jensen's performance, Sam is the one that found all the clues, figured everything out and got to be the one to lock Michael away. Jensen is very valuable and from what you shared with us it sounds like he was instrumental in getting JDM back on the show, but Jensen being valuable isn't the same thing as Dean being valuable in an episode or multiple episodes. If Michael left Dean in a coma after he left him, the writers wouldn't have to do any massive changes until he was possessed again. They use Dean to prop other characters and story lines- Sam's leader arc, for example. Setting aside Dabb's digs at Dean, episode five demonstrates this perfectly. Despite Dean doing all the heavy lifting in that ep, we get Dean telling Sam he was responsible for bringing Maggie home. They had everyone pimp Sam's leadership capabilities to high heaven, even if the show didn't match. Then had Dean put the final stamp of approval. Nilishm is another great example. It was a great acting opportunity for Jensen, and he did a fantastic job, but Dean was in a bar while Sam and Cas were away hunting, Sam figured everything out and was the one that got the better of Michael. Dean himself didn't really do a whole lot in that episode. The heavy lifting was done by Sam. So I agree Jensen is valuable because Dean is used, for pimping and propping other story lines, and characters but I don't find Dabb sees Dean the same way. Dabb's comic books are full of useless Dean and over the top Super Sam. We see this reflected in his writing on the show. Especially in Dabb's episodes.

The over-the-top physical comedy, I agree. I love that they all get along and carry on, and joke and laugh, but I feel like this hurts the show at times. They need a director who will step in and say, "nope that didn't work." American Nightmare is a good example. Jensen obviously in very good physical condition. Watching him, it was obvious he should have scaled that fence easily. It took me out of the scene with the goof ball, falling over it because it was obvious Jensen was acting. They need someone to see this sometimes. Or the wine glass in Twigs, Twine and Tasha Banes. The dinner scene with Jody in Don't you Forget about Me, we saw Dean perfectly capable of holding the glass properly But with the exposition stuff that is scripted. The French word, okay, I could maybe sorta see that (but not really) since Dean probably wasn't' exposed to a lot of french (even though he should have known it because it wasn't a hard word) But Latin, nope. Not buying Dean wouldn't know it. Like the scene in the ep about the tentacle monster (I think ) where they actually showed Dean researching. Never before on the show as it ever referred to Men of Letters, bunkers as anything other than bunker. So why would they feel a need suddenly refer to it in Latin? It came across as being done just so Sam can correct him. Even if Dean wasn't completely sure what the word meant it was easy to figure out the word meant for the context it was used in. It wasn't that hard a word to pronounce either. Dean's been exposed to Latin since he started hunting. We saw he had no problem reading longer, more difficult Latin words during the exorcism. For me the writers intention was, give Dean a scene where he's researching to counteract criticism but also to make sure they reminded the audience, okay Dean's smart but don't forget Sam's smarter. Because I can see no other reason why in that context, there was a need for actual dialogue of Sam correcting Dean. It was completely unnecessary as that should have easily been in Dean's skill set.

I had to laugh at Misha saying they never tell the same storyline twice. Lucifer anyone? Thank you @SueB for transcribing that. Even if we differ greatly on interpretation, I do appreciate you taking the time to share with us.

So much truth to this. There was no build up to it. They waited until literally the last possible second they could to introduced it. Then we barely saw any Michael in the first ep. The two scene he had were cut. Including one of the most important lines that helped explain Michael's motivations. Dabb couldn't even be bothered to write Dean in the ep. Now he can say that Sam was the only character who has been in every ep. IMO, that was deliberate. He could have easily cut one of the Jack scenes to give us some Dean vs Michael. No on will ever convince me Stranger in a Strange Land didn't apply to Sams' leader arc. The 2nd ep was a little better. But it still seemed to get the last amount of focus between and Nick. One 30 second Dean vs Michael scene and then Michael just vacates for...reasons. Instead of letting fans speculate and wonder if something was up with Dean they couldn't wait to spoil it. We get two conflicting interviews. First with Buck/Lemming who said that there wouldn't' be a lot of focus on Dean and the aftermath because of he has antibodies to trauma. Then we had Dabb try to do damage control. But even even said, "Deans' not secretly possessed. " Why not let fans speculate. We get one flashback in ep 3 (despite being told at comic con there would we would see the story unfold in flashbacks) that shows Michael getting his ass handed to him very easily by Mary Sue Wayward. Way to make Michael look weak. Not to mention all the Dean trashing in this ep with how he was a bully (they keep showing the out of context scene with Kaia). Or how even when they were all telling Jack he couldn't hunt, its only after Dean speaks that Jack leaves crying in tears. No one could even bother defending Dean, except on small throw away line. IMO, Dean was thoroughly trashed in this ep. Episode 4, did have some nice Dean scenes, but he was pretty useless when it came to the case. Sam and Samantha saved the day We even had scenes of Sam talking over him. (What was up with that). Episode 5. That scene should have meant something. Why did the Djinn react that way to Dean. It was dropped and not mentioned again. Episode 6- Jack, Episode 7 - Jack. One brief scene. Again ignored. Dean didn't' even seem to notice anything was really wrong. Episode 8- Jack again. Nothing really with Michael (I didn't bother watching this one so if something Michael related happened I stand corrected). Episode 9- the main Michael scene were with some random guest star. Once again waited until the last possible second for Michael to posses Dean Episode 10- The first episode, IMO that actually focused on Dean and Michael. It was nice to hear Dean's strength acknowledged. But it was the first ep in ages where that happened. But if I look past the surface, it was Sam that figured everything out and Sam that saved the day by locking Michael up. Episode 11- I found more Lucifer focused. Episode 12- Dean was going to lock himself away to stop Michael. The show refuses to say that Dean was doing this to save the world. The show present it as Dean being self destructive and reckless. No one acknowledged his being willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good. He needed to be punched and told he was weak and quitter. (If it was Sam, Dean would have been labelled, abusive, controlling and clingy). In an episode where Dean was facing an eternity of torture it certainly focused far more on Sam than it Dean Episode 13- Mostly Sam focused. He did all the lore stuff, got the kills and got the real moment with John. Dean got the generic on. So nope. IMO this season has been anything but Dean/Michael focused. Its's been about Sam, Jack and Nick. Dean is an afterthought.

It didn't work for me. As with the Mary scene I saw everything in this ep revolve around Sam. One episode where Jensen gets to work with a man he obviously adores doesn't change how how I see things. Dabb is NOT a Dean fan. For me it's obvious in how Dean is written since Dabb took over.

Dabb already proved he's petty enough when he did it to Mark Sheppard. No way it wasn't deliberate It happened to Ricky Whittle on The 100. It happened to Jensen on Dark Angel. Despite the audience really responding to the character. They cut his screen time, his lines, and his skills. I didn't have a computer when Dark Angel was on. So my opinion wasn't influenced by what I was reading. I know how I felt, and when I watched it more and more I kept asking, where's Alec? How Dabb is treating Dean feels identical. So I don't think my opinion is just "ignoring the whole". For me its right there on screen. We don't see Dean researching anymroe. He doesn't look for cases, he doesn't really do the exposition anymore. He's asking Sam how to fix weapons. Dean doens't need the Butterfly effect explained to him. IMO, its right there on screen that since Dabb took over all this is heavily skewed toward Sam. Even in this last ep. Sam found all the clues, and did all the explanation. He got to actually adress his issues with John, and Dean got the generic, "proud of you". Plus Sam got both kills. They even recreated Dean's iconic kill with Sam, and cheapened it.. I know what I see. I see Dark Angel all over again. .

This is why I don't see character growth for Dean. If he's not capable of thinking about himself once in a while on an occasion when its perfectly acceptable, he's still that blunt instrument John turned him into.

Given the way Dabb has written Dean, in my opinion this is exactly what it is. I'll believe then when I see it, and when it actually verbally acknowledged on screen. We can agree to disagree.

Someone should tell this to Dabb. He actually said that the only reason Sam wasnt' a leader before now was because Dean was holding him back. Dabb certainly never acknowledges Dean is a leader, but had no problem pimping Sam as one. There was even a very special episode dedicated to it. He clearly doesn't see Dean as one. So in this case, I think Dean fans have a very strong case that Dean will get less. He has. If Dean shows leadership abilities, they aren't acknowledged as such. It's labelled as bossy and controlling. If Dean appear in the lead its because Jensen has a dominate screen presence. Hence Dabb's breathing room comment. These are things Dabb has actually said. So I really can't blame Dean fans for thinking Dean will get less. It would be one thing if Dabb acknowledged this as a strength, but he doesn't, he hasn't and he won't. It didn't even make any sense. Sam can step up when he has to but he's never shown a tendency to want to lead a group of people. In fact, he seemed to join the Brits because he saw it as a way out of hunting if they stopped all monsters. I'd have more respect for the arc if they admitted Sam was struggling. Or even had Sam say he had some big shoes to fill. He's not a natural born leader. Even Jared said that Sam prefers to be in the background. Plus, Mary was going to abandon her sons for those people, so why would she abandon them all of a sudden. I guess the real reason she wanted to say was to keep hooking up with Bobby. Plus, we were told at the end of the last ep in s13, all the AU hunters settled into town. So why all of a sudden are they in the bunker calling Sam chief. Did he hunt them down and guilt them all like we saw him do with Charlie? We never saw a single thing Sam did to earn their loyalty and why they would follow him on random hunts. It also makes no sense that if they're hunting they're primary target should have been Michael. He destroyed their world and killed their familes But every single one just fell into line. Despite how many times Sam tells them not to call him chief, they just insist because why? Sam is that great? So I have no problem coming right out and saying Dean is getting less in this instance because he is. I've seen no one say that Sam can't have a piece of the pie. The problem comes when Dean gets none of it. *obviously, this doesn't apply to all Dean fans. Just to avoid any confusion.

Excellent post. I still think this is a huge problem. Nobody actually sees Dean, even to this day. They see the person they need him to be in any given situation, and if he's not performing accordingly its usually, knock some sense in him, play the little brother card (Prophet and Loss), or lecture him about how he should respond to a situation. Sorry your trip didn't go so well

This episode once again confirms that Dabb doesn't really see Dean as a character. Dean wishes to see his dad and once again it becomes all about Sam. I'm not saying Sam can't have time with John, but Dean's should have been allowed to address how he was treated. But there are always excuses about why that's not necessary. Rather than showing the search for Dean and allowing Jensen to play Michael, Dabb used the opportunity to strip the leadership role from Dean, now that he finally had the "breathing room" Then when Dean wants to sacrifice himself, its about how how poor little Sammikins feels were hurt by big mean Dean because Dean's only allowed to make decisions based on how they effect Sam. I'd say the kindest thing Dabb could do for Dean would be too kill him off but knowing Dabb, Dean would trip over his shoelace, fall and hit his head and drown in a puddle.

Dean's been conditioned his whole life to accept table scraps when it comes to anyone acknowledging his trauma. He's used to sucking it up and being the bigger person and burying it with an, "we're good." It's hard to see it as character growth when it really came off as more of the same.

Jensen's love of JDM is obvious. I think he'd enjoy working with him regardless of the material. He would never say a bad word about him or his time on the show. As for what Dean wants/needs regarding his dad, its hard to say 100% without talking to Jensen. But the problem with interviews is that he's not going to bad mouth the show*. It's rare he criticizes it, but we have seen statements and a few things over the years that have frustrated him with regards to the writing. I'm basing my feelings that he might have been a little disappointed**, mostly due to the lack of his joining in on the 300th ep lead up. He made one tweet while everyone made multiple tweets. Also on how he's talked about this situation at cons. He mentioned more than once he'd like to film a scene with Dean confronting John about "how dare you steal my childhood." So if this is his predominant opinion, there must be a part of him that thinks Dean does want and need it. *I'm am not saying, in any way shape or form that if Jensen did an interview and he said he thinks Dean got what he needed that he would just be saying that for the camera and didn't mean it. I'm just stating that as a general fact. **Also being a little disappointed doesn't mean he didn't' find the interaction Dean and John got wasn't meaningful in some way. Even if the interaction wasn't meaningless for Dean, it was for me personally as a viewer. Because why brother to bring up Dean's anger and treatment of Dean in the two previous episodes if they ignore it when John was actually there to address it. They could have even have had Sam bring it up. It felt like it was building to something and then it was left out. I felt like there was no new ground covered so the interaction for me felt pointless. Same as to why the pearl would pick that wish for Dean, if Dean really believed he needed or wanted nothing from John. Jensen himself said he was confused as to why Amara would think he needed Mary. I'm sure there are great explanations, the show just needed to take time to explore them.