Colorful Mess

You might want to posit that as a theory and question conventional wisdom. Adam Feldman argues that it was Skahaz, who was trying to break up the peace because he didn't like the fact that Dany married into House Loraq. And the poison wasn't deadly. He just wanted to frame Hizdahr. You can see this in the way he dupes Barristan. I think this makes the most sense, but more importantly it shows that Dany had built something which she promptly threw away by concluding "Dragons don't plant trees," i.e., dragons don't actually rebuild societies. A tragedy really since she was quite good at it.

I do blame D&D for misleading fans one major way. They didn't engage with the theme of destroying vs. building which may have provided some clarity on where Dany was going. In s5 they rewrote that pit scene to make Drogon rescue her from the evil villains, which isn't what happened at all. In the books, the peace was real as Skahaz states, until Drogon showed up and Daenerys rides off on her dragon. Dany actually killed or maimed some 200-600 innocent people by riding Drogon in the books. That should have been included in the show. In the show, Meereen gets cleaned up just by "burning all the bad guys," which is the Sweetrobin solution to everything. GRRM would never resolve a complex scenario that simply. These quotes sums it all up: "Whatever I do, all I make is death and horror." - Daenerys, ADWD “She was the blood of the dragon. She could kill the Sons of the Harpy, and the sons of the sons, and the sons of the sons of the sons. But a dragon could not feed a hungry child nor help a dying woman’s pain.” - Daenerys, ADWD People who embrace "full Targaryen" like Dany will always be shown to be limited to one form of power, which is efficiently killing lots of people, and the story will always come back to the idea that this method is insufficient to rule, or build a city, effectively. Now, to be fair, a lot of book readers get this theme wrong too and reach the wrong conclusions about Dany's arc in ADWD. When Dany uses other forms of power other than fire and blood, she is shown to be effective. She knows she needs to use soft power, even though she detests her subjects in Meereen. And that is why the progress she made in marrying Hizdahr was important. She tried to do something other than use her dragons and as a result, she did achieve her goals. Her goal was to make sure Meereen didn't go the way of Astapor. It wasn't to end slavery everywhere. Meereen faced a food crisis and an insurgency. As a result of the marriage and the peace terms, the insurgency stops, Meereen is free, and it can now receive food by sea trade. However, all of that changes during the fighting pits as Dany chooses to ride Drogon and conveniently burns the people she already hates. The more she uses her dragons, the less she'll be able to solve real problems later, because every time she uses her dragons, she just makes death and horror. This is what the author is talking about when he says that by using dragons a person can't reform, improve, or build. If she uses dragons she'll end up right back where she started, which is kind of the whole theme of House Targaryen. They spectacularly failed on both continents because they thought WMD was the only way to get the job done. Realistically, leaving Meereen in Daario's hands means she didn't build anything. Show!Dany made the same mistake Book!Dany made in Astapor. She just conquered, set up a weak ruler, and left. They were on theme though at the end when Dany destroyed the city that the Targaryens built. So, WMD gets you nowhere and isnt a way to build anything lasting.

Bran as king is just GRRM's personal quirk. From what I can tell from interviews, he is really into history and deep time, and as a sci-fi author prides himself on making wise decisions for the future based on historical knowledge (like Hari Seldon in Asimov's Foundation). He calls himself a "timebinder" meaning that as a science fiction writer he can imagine what society was like in the deep past and the deep future and as a result, make more informed decisions about how to improve society. Currently, he is afraid of nuclear war (symbolized by Targaryens/Valyrians) and climate change (symbolized by the Others/White Walkers) and hopes we prevent future catastrophe. He also talks about how a king who attempts to bring peace is probably better for the people in the long run (you can see this with the creation of Garth Goldenhand). Also he seems critical of rulers who can't suppress their passions and just lets them run hog wild...and Bran appears to be the asexual dispassionate ruler. Tyrion would appear to run counter to that (Shae), but Dinklage said something about Tyrion going on a growth/maturity arc. Since GRRM has consistently said Tyrion is his favorite and that he would even want to BE him, I think he does have plot armor. Tyrion is also the "bad man but good ruler" who is smart and knows history as well. While I get his perspective, all of this is a very specific type of ruler and this doesn't speak to audiences very well.

That king was elected by his lords, that he SERVES. They dont serve HIM. He has a duty to the people and should have made an alliance. It would be one thing if he was a dictator and decided to take the throne for himself. But he didn't, he was chosen by majority rule. It would be like my elected officials deciding that someone else should take over their job, that I elected them to do. And the reason they decided this, is because they're horny.

Huh? She wanted Jon to be KitN again and wanted everyone to know that he had a rightful claim to the throne. Jon betrayed the North and was absolutely ruined as a character in the final season because he was Dany's doormat (for reasons I still dont understand). Missandei was allowed to choose her queen, but the Northerners can't. Sounds like tyranny. The best thing Sansa did was play along and until Dany self-imploded on her own.

Yes and this was always the theory behind a Time for Wolves, that the Starks would rise, mostly by being patient, building good will, and waiting for everyone else to self-destruct.

She's queen of her own realm. She won. Simple statements about Sansa winning anything must both you.

She misjudged how deeply Tyrion was into the cult. She expected Tyrion to do the right thing when it mattered and work with Varys to help put Jon on the throne. I'm sure he wishes he would have listened to Sansa when she said Jon is "someone better." I think her instincts for ruling are just fine. She won the game of thrones.

By that point when the dealing were being made, Sansa was expecting to get Jon back. That was the whole reason she was there. She sets up the North as independent, then she says regretfully, that the North lost their king. The subtext is that she was clearing the way for Jon to return back to the North to rule. She appeared to like that arrangement.

The weight should be on how he enabled the killing of half a million people by believing in a tyrant. At least Tyrion felt guilty for that. The guilt of killing one person - who was clearly not innocent - isn't really that compelling. He should feel guilty for backing Dany for so long that he had to be a kinslayer. I'm glad he betrayed her and chose his family over her. He saved the world from ice and fire. Sam will be sure that gets written into A Song of Ice and Fire.

Three times she's rounded up people and executed them as a group of prisoners, regardless of guilt/innocence. They did not personally betray her. That's enough character development for me for this decision. In her mind she probably took the whole city prisoner and executed them. Even though I think the show did enough legwork to get her there, there are book scenes that they excluded that could provide insight. They really needed to stick with book canon in the first dragon flight scene in S5. That was important character development for this S8 decision. In both, Dany had effectively won but she still wasn't satisfied. In both, she massacred innocents on her dragon. The only difference is that in the first one, she's not completely in control of Drogon yet. Still, she saw innocents massacred and was untroubled.

Jon was not entirely innocent of the history of the realm; his own maester had seen to that. “That was the year of the Great Council,” he said. “The lords passed over Prince Aerion’s infant son and Prince Daeron’s daughter and gave the crown to Aegon.” “Yes and no. First they offered it, quietly, to Aemon. And quietly he refused. The gods meant for him to serve, not to rule, he told them. He had sworn a vow and would not break it, though the High Septon himself offered to absolve him. Well, no sane man wanted any blood of Aerion’s on the throne, and Daeron’s girl was a lackwit besides being female, so they had no choice but to turn to Aemon’s younger brother—Aegon, the Fifth of His Name. Aegon the Unlikely, they called him, born the fourth son of a fourth son. Aemon knew, and rightly, that if he remained at court those who disliked his brother’s rule would seek to use him, so he came to the Wall. And here he has remained, while his brother and his brother’s son and his son each reigned and died in turn, until Jaime Lannister put an end to the reign of dragonkings"

“When you find yourself in bed with an ugly woman, the best thing to do is close your eyes and get on with it,” he declared. “Waiting won’t make the maid any prettier. Kiss her and be done with it.” “Kiss her?” Ser Barristan repeated, aghast. “A steel kiss,” said Littlefinger. Robert turned to face his Hand. “Well, there it is, Ned. You and Selmy stand alone on this matter. The only question that remains is, who can we find to kill her?” ... “He pushed back his chair and stood. “Do it yourself, Robert. The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. Look her in the eyes before you kill her. See her tears, hear her last words. You owe her that much at least.”

Ygritte kills one dude and Jon leaves her ass. Melisandre burns one girl and Jon banishes her. Stannis executes one man by fire and Jon disobeys. Jon commits treason against Stannis by switching babies. Daenerys kills THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of people and Jon's like "but I luvre her" and even then he still agonizes over whether it was the right thing to do. Dany burns an entire city and he's like... IDK TYRION. SHE'S MY QUEEN. She said she was going to take over more cities and Jon just stares like, a dumb cult member. I can understand Jon going into self-imposed exile due to the guilt. But Jon expresses no guilt for his role in enabling Dany's war crimes. Only Tyrion acknowledged that Dany did wrong, out of his own volition. Jon was more concerned about killing a murderous tyrant than the thousands killed in front of him. Why can Tyrion stick around? Tyrion told Jon to kill her - Greyworm doesn't care about that? And why is anyone listening to Greyworm anyway?

Why does Dany fall right into Cersei's traps then? Cersei used Dany's invasion to sway lords to her side, and Dany looked exactly like the mad conqueror Cersei said she was. Cersei wanted Dany to kill civilians and Dany did exactly what Cersei wanted. If Cersei was as dumb as a rock she wouldn't have held the throne for as long as she did, and wouldn't have made Dany completely lose her marbles. While Dany was busy incinerating the populace like a bug exterminator, Cersei and Jaime were having an emotional, human moment. Its amazing they managed to make Cersei look sympathetic and make Dany look like a cold blooded killer.

I still think its viewers' job to put in some work, to be critical of the "text." Viewers should examine why they were screaming "burn them all!" at the TV after Missandei's execution, examine why they started to see all the Starks as enemies, examine why Northern Independence was ridiculed when Sansa was wanted it but cheered when Robb and Jon were crowned, examine why they feel the need to blame Jon for Dany's actions because he didn't fuck her, examine why they justified every violent act because she's a homeless female orphan/rape victim. Some of this reflects my own journey reading the books: at the end, Dany still had contempt of the nobility in Meereen even though she had won, and she concluded that the nuclear option was the "solution." I found myself agreeing with her - BUT I was scared that I was agreeing with her. So I started to be more critical of her from that point.

Rhaegar lost honorably and died - and he wasnt a conqueror. In the Astapor scene, Dany played dirty like Aegon the Conqueror and won. I think they were trying to show her character development as a conqueror, turning people into abstract things to subdue: "We’ve never really gotten a sense of her capacity for cruelty. She’s surrounded by people who are terrible people but who haven’t done anything to her personally. And it’s interesting to me that as the sphere of her empathy widens, the sphere of her cruelty widens as well. All at once she becomes a major force to be reckoned with. She spent a lot of time futilely kind of banging her fists on the doors and declaring that she was owed the Iron Throne by right, but now she’s stepped into her own as a conqueror.” - D.B. Weiss, S03E04 Inside the Episode Not that this matters that much. D&D lie through their teeth. They lie on screen using cinematic tricks, they lie to actors, they lie in magazines. Better to go with GRRM's interviews.

Exactly, they are 1) illiterate, and 2) brainwashed. She can't afford them so she pulls a trick to get them anyway. She doesn't pay them a wage. Some of this is sketchy. I think its fine to have them fight other slavers in Essos, but once Dany used them for her own personal vengeance quest in a strange land they've never been to, that's morally grey. Re: directorial choices. Throughout, they are trying to play both sides of the "coin." D&D talk about her capacity for cruelty/empathy in that Astapor scene. Both are growing at the same time she's learning what conquering means. Its not a clear cut hero - and why would it be? Thats not the essence of the story. Jorah and Barristan as a litmus test for the audience isnt unquestionable approval of Dany. They arent exactly the sharpest tools in the shed. Jorah sold slaves just to be with a woman who hated him and Barristan was loyal to Aerys beyond reason. Sansa and Arya are about the only ones who get Dany right. "We don't trust your queen." Daario and Cersei also saw her for what she was and cut through a lot of the b.s.

Thats what she did, though. Conquering involves killing everyone, with the goal of rule by fear. She learned how to do that in Essos. That was her "ruling arc" - how to conquer people then rule like a god above them. She just dropped the "I'm saving you while conquering you" farce, which is what all colonialists think they're doing. Dany became true to herself, her house words, and what dragons always represent in the story.

I'm really glad Sansa stood against Dany as queen. Maybe she has a special tyrant radar after hanging around so many of them.

I can agree with that. They made them robots for the twist. If Jon was critical of Dany at any point, more people would have maybe seen it coming. They clearly wanted to shock people so Jon and Tyrion had to be dummies. But mechanical writing aside, I still think that Joe Dempsie is right - it makes sense upon reflection. I hated Dany for a long time because I knew she'd do something like this. I just thought she'd do it to Winterfell instead of King's Landing.

You asked for evidence when she responds with violence after a loss. I gave you an example of Dany doing that. Sansa has nothing to do with this storyline. Sansa doesn't have enormous power like Dany does. This isn't a story about Sansa being corrupted by power, because she has very little. Dany has numerous examples of asserting her dominance and using unnecessarily cruel methods to punish people. Sansa only has one. Viewers are supposed to feel uncomfortable and not simply take Dany's decisions at face value. If the show had wanted Dany to feel completely justified they wouldn't have had Barristan caution her to show mercy. Hell, they wouldn't have had her advisors caution her to show mercy in every scene with the masters, if they believed her instincts were correct. Dany's instincts were always to kill them all first. Advisors had to walk her back from that path. This time no one did. It was going to happen eventually. She felt like the former masters had won when they killed Barristan. She felt like she had "lost." That was why she decided to use her dragons to intimidate and execute these random dudes who were clearly not even responsible for Barristan's death. Even more, he had cautioned her not to choose that path by reminding her about how each time the Mad King gave his enemies the justice they thought they deserved, he felt powerful and right. This was an important scene because from that point, viewers should have begun to scrutinize exactly how Dany feels about delivering "justice." Robert Baratheon was dead and no one was alive to be a threat to her anymore. She's the aggressor in this situation. She started this war. I gave you an example of her reacting with anger when she's losing. She used overwhelming use of force and slaughtered them like she slaughtered the people of King's Landing. The Lannisters didn't have to be defeated THAT badly. Again I gave you an example of her responding with violence instead of mercy. She didn't have to kill both the father and the son. Dickon was whom Sam was really upset about. That sealed his decision on Dany on why she's unfit for rule. We can't judge facial expressions, the cornerstone of acting? We do that with every character. I'm scrutinizing Jon's face all the time. He looks really uncomfortable in every Dany scene. What was important was her lack of guilt in contrast to Sam's character. Sam feels extremely guilty about stealing a book and a sword; Dany feels no remorse about burning people alive. It's not a ret-con if its a clue before the episode airs. The "previously on" is providing show context for what is to come. But it's not even necessary, really. People were supposed to see how angry she was when she watched that execution. That is a "waking the dragon" face. Prior to that scene, people were supposed to see how she wanted to kill them all anyway no matter what Cersei did. The Missandei execution was the icing on top that made her extra furious. I'd say most of the time, she wanted to do the most violent thing during periods of anger, for many seasons now. This just tipped her over.

Mirri was a prisoner and a slave and no longer a personal threat. Xaro and Doreah, were also prisoners and no longer a personal threat. Her punishment was cruel and unusual. Her response to the masters crucifying the children was to arbitrarily round them up and give them eye-for-an-eye. This is not a person to lead Westeros into any sort of Enlightenment even though she claims she can (tyrants always promise stuff they cant deliver). The former masters she again arbitrarily rounded up and fed to her dragons. She says she'll let her dragons decide who is guilty/innocent - that is basically the same "justice" as Caligula. Her imprisonment in the Dothraki is what seems to have turned her into a conquering dragon (similar to her father's imprisonment) because now she's giving speeches about killing men in iron suits who are no threat to her. She reacts with anger when she finds out she's losing to Cersei in 7x4, and she launches her furious rampage on the Lannister armies. She wanted to burn the Tarlys who were prisoners and of no threat to her. It was chilling how clinically she executed them, delivered the news to Sam, and her reaction to his reaction (zero empathy). She responded with a haughty anger to the Northern small folk who didn't simper and bow to her. In the "previously on" the show used the phrase "you don't want to wake the dragon, do you?" over Dany's face as she's watching Missandei's execution. That seems to have set off what we saw in 8x5, but the dragon was awake for a long time. Her suppression of it really seemed to be an effort. Viserys comes up in Season 7. In 7x2, when she picked up the miniature dragon and wistfully says that her brother Viserys would have attacked KL by now, Tyrion reminded her that she's not here to be Queen of the Ashes. But she puts down the miniature dragon and looks disappointed. She also defends Aegon's rule by fear even as Tyrion is trying to help her be different (like Jon's reminded her), and she herself is claiming to be different (illustrating her hypocrisy). Visual imagery also helped that scene by having lightning flash in the background when she mentions Viserys. She's gotten quite a few ominous shots like that. Standing on top of the pyramid in Meereen, like a god over all the people, with the Targaryen banner in the background looking similar to a Nazi symbol. Looking crazy-eyed with anger when she accuses Tyrion of intentionally losing to side with his family. Anxious violins playing over her face when she sees Jon getting praised for the battle. Dragonstone - everything about that place screams evil Bowser's Castle. Jon being visibly afraid of her dragons and she telling him not to be afraid. Usually when a character says that, it's a signal to the viewers that YES we should be afraid. And the shot of Drogon staring at Jon was scary. If people saw that as cute/funny, they probably misread Dany the whole time.

Her flaw was wanting the Iron Throne and letting her dragon side take over. She started acting like her brother. You could tell she wanted to in S7. Whenever she suffered a defeat, she lashed out with violence.

D&D dont care, they're just rolling around in their piles of money. Instead, people could just boycott their future Star Wars franchise. At least folks could protest smarter that way. This is just dumb. A redo will never happen.