Colorful Mess

Dany took her as her slave. "Protection" is what Dany thinks she's doing - later she slaps her. She typically works at cross-purposes like that. It's what makes her an interesting character. ...I think the rest of your comments aren't really debatable points, they're just rants about Sansa. My original post was about Dany's characterization.

Varys works behind the scenes and waits for just the right moment to play his hand. He didn't survive this long being stupid.

She was Dany's slave. Sansa didn't physically slap Jeyne Poole. And Sansa is not about to kill thousands of innocent people at this point in the story. What does this have to do with my point about Ned's desperate situation at the end of S1? Sansa sees Jon as Ned in the south, isolated and alone and without protection. Jon is the one storming off down there without thinking. She makes a play that is about protecting him, because people are more likely to protect the true heir who doesn't want to kill them all. Sansa sees Dany as unstable and power-hungry and Jon is at risk around her, even without his family knowing! Sansa knows first hand what people in power will do to the people closest to them, when their power is threatened. Jon does that just by existing.

He was already at risk going down there with Dany anyway - look at the catastrophe she set up for him that he's walking into. It's not like Jon is going to walk up to the throne and take it, because Varys told him to. This is more like, Varys will work behind the scenes to protect Jon.

This is an unhealthy relationship. What relationship is built on ultimatums that make the guy not be able to tell his own family who he is? They have a right to know. Dany's throne is standing in the way? Too bad. Dany is toxic for him. Luckily, Jon defied her anyway. He made his choice. It's almost like he doesn't really care if Sansa ruined his and Dany's relationship because he wants to stay in the North anyway.

I was talking about signs that you can see in hindsight for her being a violent conqueror. By itself its not much. But if you want to re-read for clues to her killing innocents, that would be one thing that would stand out to me--how she treats the people under her. Slapping the help? Always a bad sign. She is absolutely asking him to lie. Because he knows the truth. It's HIS identity, not hers. Remember that theme song "Truth" Ramon Djawadi wrote, apparently for them? I r o n y. When the show trolls, it trolls hard. "Ticking bomb" is only there because of Dany's reaction. SHE is the bomb. It's basically "You don't want to wake the dragon do you?" How can you side with that? However, I dont think Sansa is putting him at risk; she's giving him allies in the South. He now has Varys in his pocket. Ned was more at risk because he was isolated and not even Varys would take a stand. But he seems determined now.

Yes, thank you. It was always there. I think the biggest sign for me was that Dany slapped the slave she "saved" from rape in Book 1, simply because she said Drogo fell from his horse. It's a perfect encapsulation of her weird morality - one step forward, two steps back. Bothered by violence while inflicting it at the same time. A contradictory mix of savior and conqueror--which Mirri tries to tell her is an oxymoron. I thought in E4 she would drop all pretense of being a "savior" but she's still keeping a front of "saving the world from tyrants" or whatever b.s. justification she's using now. Cersei is trying to drive her down to her level and expose her hypocrisy to all of Westeros -- and Dany is taking the bait. Slapping her servant also parallels Tyrion who slaps Shae. These abusive tendencies are coming out in her relationship with Jon. She wants to dictate his entire identity, just so her throne isn't threatened. She wants to control what he can say to his family members. She wants him to lie in public about who he is so she can secure power. This is textbook "isolating behavior" in the interpersonal violence literature, but with the added element of the most powerful person in the world doing it...I dont even know what to call that.

Her capacity for cruelty is scary though, because you never know what will or won't restrain her. The people who experience her cruelty don't really care about her mental state--if she's killing people it doesn't matter whether she's sane or lost her marbles. Killing masses of people for a chair is pretty insane anyway and her war has a confusing mix of contradictory justifications. Furthermore, the fact that she desires and is capable of mass murder and only checks herself when others have to play watchdog means this isn't the best person for Westeros. They need someone who can rule without dragons as a crutch and who isnt going to continue the cycle of destroy-reubuild-destroy that the Targaryens delivered to Westeros during their short 300 years. Targaryens are obsessed with fire, prophecy, and their own hegemony over others. It's time for wolves, who ruled their kingdom in relative stability for 8,000 years. As for picking up on the antagonistic stuff in the books, I'll just list a few things that stood out to me. Jon defends the realm and Dany wants to attack it. The king in the North title which emerged in Book 1 is a direct threat to Dany's desire for all 7 kingdoms. "Sweetness" (blue rose) has a heavy negative context in her chapters. The house words, fire and blood (conquest), compared to winter is coming (preparation). Then there is heart that beats blue with corruption in the House of the Undying which beats in time with her own. Ned sanctioned Dany's execution as long as Robert could do it himself--and Jon is told to execute a woman himself. Jorah warns Dany about not trusting strange men too easily. Crows are called liars, tricksy. Quaithe tells Dany to beware of ALL who come for her dragons. Quentyn has similar motives to Jon and uses deception to accomplish his mission. After Dany sees a blue rose in a wall of ice, the "deceptive roses" of House Tyrell become more prominent. Ygritte tells Jon about Bael, a deceiver. Dany thinks about her betrayals and then hears a wolf howl. Ned says he never trusts what a man says on his knees. A romance of two long-lost Targaryens is too sickly sweet for this series. The play on words of a "dance" meaning a war and a "kiss" meaning a sword suggests an adversarial relationship at some point. Dany gains followers while Jon makes friends. Then those three treasons of course.

Huh? If I recall you argued against me on that. You said you didn't see it happening.

Likely. She's playing the game of thrones with a nuke between her thighs, she gets outsmarted by Cersei. Cersei is there to make Dany GO LOWER in morality, and Jon probably is probably disgusted by them both.

When asked what he would name his child, GRRM said "probably not Daenerys." (x)

That was the fight I was imagining to some degree -- that deception would be used, because truth/lies is so much a part of this story. There was a lot of foreshadowing for her being betrayed by the people closest to her and by her being assassinated. GRRM critiqued writers who make characters be exactly as they appear. So Jon isn't the lovable cinnamon roll folks thought he was. And why would he be? GRRM edited an entire volume called "Rogues" in which he praised the scoundrels, con men, thieves, cheats, rascals, swindlers, seducers, deceivers in fiction. Of course he's going to have his main guy written like that. It also helps to be critical of Targaryens in general. I think this dynasty is terrible and even the two "best" Targaryens isn't enough to justify a genuine romance or a restoration. GRRM's season 3 episode: "People work together when it suits them. They’re loyal when it suits them. They love each other when it suits them. And they kill each other when it suits them." - S03E07

I knew what I was getting into when I read these books back in the day. I knew it would be Jon vs. Dany, two heroes becoming antagonists to each other. The only thing I'm a little thrown off by is that the Dance of Dragons isn't on actual dragons. Instead, Jon fights like a wolf. In hindsight, it seems fitting now.

Drogon almost bit Dany's arm off in the show, and almost bit her head off in the books. GRRM writes dragons ripping each other's heads off and eating other Targaryens. They even included these gruesome details in the show about Rhaenyra: "It ate her while her son watched." "They're beasts bred for war and in war they died." - Jorah Cute cuddly kittens these are not. I'm wondering about Jon: "But you haven't stormed King's Landing. Why not? The only reason I can see is that you don't want to kill thousands of innocent people. Which means at the very least, you're better than Cersei." - Jon, S7 So storming KL: no better than Cersei. How is Jon going to morally support that?

Exactly, GRRM has said dragons “Oh sure, dragons are cool too, but maybe not on our doorstep.” I don't think he personally romanticizes them. He treats them like violent destructive murder weapons. Yeah, Bran's his visions are focused on dragons and wildfire and Dany's father. I like the idea of him directing events. His long look at Tyrion in E1 was also interesting. Wonder where that's leading?

I think it's the authors' view too, as I've been saying for a while now over the hiatus. An external battle of good vs. evil, which is what the WW threat always was, is not the main show. The heart in conflict is more important. You can't have that conflict when everyone is on the same side. The WW ending in E3 is totally in line with the authors' logic. Fire magic is still a threat, however. Dragons and wildfire (which have some kind of magical co-dependency in the books) is still a danger. The world could end in "fire."

The only spoiler I trust is the Walking dead one and the original leaker who correctly predicted Lyanna becoming a WW, Theon dying by charging at the NK, and Arya jumping on the NK and killing him 141 days ago. Later, as info was clarified from the same source, the source said Jon kills Dany. The source also doesnt seem to care about the show at all, so more likely to give unbiased info without fleaks. The other leak posted about Jon joining the NW seems to just be filling in with fleaks for that original source who predicted info correctly before the air date.

You're just describing a rationale for conflict between these two sides. Dany wants the North. The North wants independence. This will probably lead to war. The Starks ruled in the North for 8,000 years, not hundreds. The Targaryens for 300. Its just one long hostage situation started by Aegon and restarted by Dany. No one in the North would choose a Targaryen. They chose Jon, he was elected. No one elected Dany in Westeros.

"Mance was a great man...king beyond the wall... How many people had to die for his pride." That Tormund line is more about the fact that Mance is the guy who had too much pride and his people died because of it. The wildlings simply needed humanitarian aid but Mance got a ton of them killed in his war because he couldn't simply submit to the king's laws. Jon probably doesn't want to be known as the guy who dragged his people into a war with Dany because of his pride. I think Jon told the Northern Lords the truth, and Sam speaks the truth on the matter as well. He became Torrhen Stark who knelt in fear of what Dany could do to his people if he kept his title. Because Dany would always, ALWAYS be threatened by his title. You can see it in the way she carries herself in the North: she always cared about taking the North for herself. That never went away. And now we know she is volatile because Sam's POV comes in. If Sam knows this within 3 minutes of meeting her, Jon knows this too. "You bent the knee to save your people." I think this is the truth. It comes in a scene where Sam is telling Jon (and the audience) the facts of the matter. I don't think Sam means Jon saved his people from the AOTD by getting an army--because why did he have to do that if she already agreed to help? There's no "saving" then. Where is the sacrifice if Dany gives him free stuff? It can only mean that he is placating Dany so she feels less threatened by his title when they go North.

Dany talks about her vision for stopping wheels that roll over both the rich and the poor--just as she rolls over the rich and the poor. The soldiers were both highborn and low in that little group of frightened prisoners she rounded up. Demagogues and tyrants often use strategic misnaming in which you accuse the opposition of doing exactly what you’re doing. Dany's actions remind me of the Mongols who forced conquered peoples to submit while those who resisted were destroyed. She is a sympathetic villain.

I think it will be the second Dance of Dragons. I offered evidence for why I think that during the hiatus. It's looking more likely: Sam is conspiring against Dany and just played kingmaker. Drogon's stare, the North's defiance, and the fact that Dany gave Jon access to her dragons suggests betrayal. Rhaenyra did the same to bastard dragon riders.

"She's come across some frosty people in her life, but she's been able to kind of get rid of them. She can't get rid of these guys.They just simply don't like her and how can you fight against that? You can't. That's a bitter pill to swallow because at this point her ego is at a place that doesn't handle that too great. But her love for Jon is the thing that allows her to take that breath and try--try--to make friends." -Emilia in the Behind the Scenes video She doesn't really care about the North, she just wants Jon's approval. This is a toxic situation for Jon. He's trying to save his people while she'd be happy to get rid of them.

These people are starving and poor and the citizens of her country -- not rich, arrogant, sexist slavers. She's just a bully now because of the power imbalance between herself and the people she threat-- excuse me, "intimidated." The boss who acts like an authoritarian bully to his employees may make his employees play nice to his face but they're mocking him behind his back and cant wait for the day he's fired.

The equivalent they're drawing in the show is mercy to prisoners, "beat dogs" as Stannis called them. Lannister or wildling, the they were beaten,. Dany saw no use for Randyll or Dickon. Jon saw use for the wildlings. You can't tell me that Jon wouldn't see use for Randyll or Dickon in some capacity. This is the way to gain loyalty in Westeros. Make people feel useful.

Westeros doesn't need more of the same though, at this point. Jon showed mercy to another non-kneeler, Mance, when he was being executed by fire. He also didnt force the wildlings (also prisoners like the Tarlys) to kneel to him. Dany has the same values as all the rest: might = right. Dany thinks she has to be a tyrant - but people aren't having that. They're fed up.