Colorful Mess

"Done well" though - Thats real subjective. "Petitioning" creative people to "redo" their work is just a silly idea overall. Mark Hamill is mocking it on twitter. If only people put this much effort petitioning actual social problems.

The writing was terrible for a while now, but no one protested it. Its only when a woman does something bad on TV? Is the petition calling for a more convincing build up for a "dark turn" for Dany, or is it calling for a complete rewrite? Those are two very different things. For me in S8 the "bad writing" starts with everything centering around Dany, writing her as if she's the only POV that matters. We get her reaction to Jon's parentage, but not Arya's or Sansa's. Jon's POV is completely blocked. Then Jon had to be an "extra" because thats what Dany will only allow him to be. If he exerts his opinions, sides with his family, thinks about his parentage at all, questions Dany's orders, Dany is threatened. We get hints that he'd rather be staying in the North but of course he can't tell Dany that. He's such a loyal, perfect supplicant - exactly what Dany wants. People were happy Jon bent the knee without realizing there's really not a lot for Jon to do when he's a glorified servant. So at least killing her would be something like a step towards getting a personality. One thing I did like though is that we didn't see Dany's reaction on Drogon as she slaughtered them. The POV was from the people on the ground, which is as it should be.

Yeah that was terrible writing. Wight hunt was just as bad as anything else they've written post S5. It was also the moment Jon got inducted into the Dany cult and lost all of his critical thinking skills and became another slavish follower like Jorah and Daario because she rode a dragon. Then she rides her dragon to slaughter millions of people right before his eyes now. Romantic! This isn't a tragic romance, this is a self-destructive abusive relationship. All of this was within Dany's control. I think there is a dark undercurrent to their relationship where he was held hostage on Dragonstone and hasnt been free since. Cant wait for him to kill his abuser.

No we don't agree. I'm saying there's a reason why they didn't write it well: character wise, Jon and Dany together are a hot mess. He would have no reason to be attracted to her other than by looks. Which is shallow. And explains why there's nothing of substance there to actually write well even if they had tried.

Re: titles mattering to him. I think titles only mattered to his people for independence purposes, not really to him. But ok he's supposed to love Dany, who is written to love her titles more than him (otherwise she wouldn't be so threatened by his claim). I just was just never convinced by this romance on screen. Other people criticize the writing all day long but the Jon/Dany "romance" is like some sacred cow that can't be slaughtered? Bookwise Jon fell in love with the non-violent qualities that Ygritte had, specifically her singing. I'm not really sure what Jon would like about Dany, she's been absolutely insufferable. And violent. And selfish. And (literally) entitled. Anachronisms...don't apply here. It's fantasy.

Because she hesitated at every point? Wight hunt, truce, Dany looked at the Night King and thought...well he's bad yes but first we need to make sure Cersei doesn't take back my territory. At every point she thinks about her throne. I'm sure Jon "titles don't matter" loves that about her! my point was that if people's kinks are "Jon falling in love with a murderer" they clearly put more effort into that with Ygritte probably because Ygritte didn't destroy an entire city after people yielded. She's just one woman with a bow. Proportionality is a thing. The show gets that I think.

Well he's already not in love with her...or fallen out of love. Kinslayer and queenslayer is enough conflict. Jon loving a war criminal and a mass murderer is just so ridiculous, it ruins all the tragedy. Maybe they'll do it, but I can't stop laughing at this idea. It's like Old Yeller Dany.

Dany threatening him during their first meeting, Dany flying off to do major damage to people on her dragon, Dany wasting time with Cersei's truce, Dany smirking as she threatens the Northern smallfolk, Dany making him swear to hide his identity from his family and throwing ultimatums around, Dany actually saying this to him during his identity crisis: "IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU WANT what happens when they demand you press your claim and take WHAT IS MINE?!?!" Because Jon would love this? ^ The only tragic love story was seasons 2, 3, and 4 with Ygritte. It was done convincingly because Ygritte was quite normal and never as problematic as Dany was. It's like they made Jon/Dany forgettable because it was never meant to be deeply rooted.

I'm so happy they didn't. Jon Snow falling in love with a mass murderer, and actually desiring that? There's nothing to be conflicted about there.

Yeah I think GRRM said something like how you can do something good one day and something evil the next. That may be true but it doesn't work on TV. Audiences may end up confused.

She also had darker theme music whenever she burns someone. The show intended that. The music helps create audience perception which is at odds with the visual imagery, in other words, it is used to deceive in some cases. In the S6 Dothraki speech she's talking about war, mass murder, death, and the music is just so inspiring!

We don't know what Varys' plans were with the Dothraki. Varys is a Targaryen loyalist who believed in Dany at one point and now he doesn't. He sees Dany at this stage in her career, teetering on the edge of madness with enough firepower to reduce a million people to ashes. Viserys never had that capability. And we know that bookwise, Varys has his own candidate he wants on the throne who was raised differently from the other Targaryens. The Elaria and Olenna scene is him working on the clock. Varys is just telling them what they want to hear to get them to ally with Dany. He's not actually pushing for what Dany is doing, burning all of King's Landing TO THE GROUND. He understands there needs to be a certain amount of ruthlessness. He himself isn't a good guy. But what he doesn't support is Caligula-level destruction on a massive scale. It's just too far for him, morally, and as dark as he is, his reservations were proved right.

Varys had an "issue" in episode four. Perhaps you remember it, him disapproving of her plan to mass murder of civilians which is what she did in this episode. He told her to her face that he thought she was betraying the people. "These are the people you came here to protect. I beg you, your grace, do not destroy the city you came to save." Basically, he's warning her not to become a tyrant. And from his perspective she looks like she's going to do that anyway. So...after seeing it in action yeah, I support the poisoning (if he even did that, there is no on screen evidence that he did). He was what we might call "prescient."

After this episode, its clear that everyone who believed in her was in a cult. Jon's instincts were very wrong.

maybe if Dany was a friendly visitor from Esoss who just wanted to have dinner with them, the "outsider" thing might hold weight. But she did have power over them and expected them to show proper deference. She waltzed in there like she owned the place and expected them to call her queen.

It was justifiable. Varys was right. Because they could tell she was bad news immediately.

Even the darker aspects of those male characters doesnt compare to what Dany did. You're asking for Jon, Tyrion, and Varys to commit war crimes on a massive scale. They would have had to commit atrocities, attacking a city that had surrendered, and would have to have enough firepower to turn people to ash in seconds. They don't have this, in book or show, so Dany's capacity for cruelty was always in the foundation of the book. There is ruthless, which is what Tyrion and Varys were expecting and what they have done, and then there is Dany acting irrationally cruel with huge consequences. There are many more book scenes that D&D left out that make her even more dark than she already is in the show. Her bright moments are still what separates her from Cersei throughout the books, but she ends being the same as her. Furthermore she was always inconsistent and self-contradictory in the books, from helping people but being the cause of their suffering at the same time. I don't think that's bad writing: that's just who she is. It's her character trait. There is a lot of bad writing in this show but I think Dany is actually the best adapted out of all the characters.

I dont think its a tragic romance at all. I think its a hostage situation with Dany as the abuser. That's what it always was from the first moment they met. He says zero words except "My queen" and "as you command." Dany's character arc is tragic, but their "thing" isn't real, because Jon always feared her. In that context you can't trust anything he says because he's just trying to survive her. She flipped out partly because she realized he doesn't love her.

I dont think Jon loves her, I think he's saying anything he can to get her to not kill him and his family. He looks at his feet when he lies. He looked at his feet every time he said something he didn't mean. He only tells her he loves her AFTER she burns Varys and threatens Sansa. He looked at his feet then too, and gave her more "my queen" b.s. Even she caught on that it's fake. I dont think this will be played like Buffy/Angel at this point. More like Joffrey/Sansa.

Oh, I just meant Sansa could potentially usurp her by putting Jon on the throne. I think that's really made Dany rush faster and that line about her enemies growing stronger had a double meaning. Yeah, some of this reads as Cersei vs. Margaery with Jon as Tommen. But really, I despise the idea of dumb Jon and hope he shows some smarts soon. He is so poorly adapted from the books. I think Dany may need to find another profession if she can't handle lords and ladies bluntly telling her the truth.

Since every advisor except maybe Daario has coddled and tiptoed around Dany forever, I'm so glad it's not written like more of the same here. That's what all her advisors are doing and its tiring. They're all thinking what Sansa is saying because she has valid concerns. She's just not going to hide behind lies at this point. Interestingly. Dany is already paranoid about Sansa usurping her. She's racing to get the throne faster and making really detrimental mistakes because she's afraid of a coup. Everyone is afraid of her except Sansa and Varys.

This reddit post explains it pretty well I think.

Dany is like >:( Cersei is like :) Varys with Jon is like :D He knows he can end Dany's career at any moment.

I want a Darker Jon too.

Yeah, because she wants him out of a toxic relationship, so she tells the truth. Dany wants to keep telling lies. Dany would blow her top around Jon even if the people rallied around him as a bastard. It's inevitable. Just look at that feast scene - she's jealous about things he CAN'T EVEN CONTROL. This is textbook abusive. You are missing the entire irony at play here - she wants to FEEL good about saving people, ignoring how she is in the WARLORD position as the wife of the khal who is raiding towns and villages for HER THRONE. Eroeh end up being raped and killed anyway. The lesson is, conquering and saving are contradictory. Which is what we're finding out now in this episode as she tries to sell her vanity war as some superhero b.s. The slap is just a sign of something Viserys would do to his help. She's becoming her brother.