saki

I am pretty certain that all widows of Earls/Marquises/Dukes get the Dowager title, I don't think it has anything to do with whether or not their children have inherited. As someone else said, I had always assumed that Bates had fertility issues given that neither Vera nor Anna have got pregnant over years with him. It's likely that Anna is not that keen on sex right now, given the rape, but they have had quite some time together before that without a pregnancy.

Madam Magpie - the secret marriage thing would really not work for Edith for a few reasons but, mostly, that marriages are a matter of public record, it would not be at all difficult for someone to find out that it hadn't happened and, in any case, Gregson was married already to someone else and so it would be even easier for someone to figure out that it was a lie. I feel for everyone in this situation - Edith, definitely, but also the Swiss couple and the Drewes. I think it's worth bearing in mind that, at the time (and indeed until fairly recently), we didn't know that much about attachment and early childhood. Edith also grew up in a household where babies were really not raised by their mothers. George and Sybbie are probably far more attached to their nanny than they are to Mary and Tom but that's not something that's considered of much importance.

I think it's a fair point that there are a number of characters who are teflon, it's definitely not just Mary. Robert is definitely teflon, it doesn't matter how many times he loses all his money, he never actually loses Downton. I'm not sure I agree that Mary never loses her manners, I think she's quite rude a lot of the time, it's just that the other characters don't react to it so as the viewer you tend not to think of it as rudeness. For instance, it's fairly common for her to disagree with others in social situations quite vigorously but, when Miss Bunting did it about the memorial, that was greeted with gasps of horror. I'm also not sure that not apologising or regretting or being ashamed are good qualities - I don't admire them, particularly, anyway. I would like Mary more if she was capable of reflecting on the past, apologising to those she's hurt, and - yes - being ashamed of some of the nasty things she's said/done and mistakes she's made.

I agree with others that I think Mary's storylines if Matthew had lived would have been about producing the heir (infertility? difficult pregnancies/births?) and raising the children. I slightly wish that we'd see some of the latter storylines playing out with Isobel - I am certain that Isobel didn't raise Matthew the way that Mary is raising George, it's a shame that we don't get any scenes of her with him. I suspect that's probably mostly about preferring not to show Mary in a bad light. Agreed also that they would have clashed much more over the running of the estate. Up until fairly recently, Mary was not much of a modernist, she's had to change largely because they need someone (other than Tom) to argue with Robert about modernisation. I also wonder whether another storyline might have been Matthew wanting to move out of Downton - it frankly never made much sense that they lived there in the first place, most couples in their situations would have lived in another property owned by the Earl nearby.

I really enjoy Cordelia on BTVS - dislike the direction taken on AtS but that's for another place. The one thing I did find offputting though was just how much older she looked than the rest of the cast. Particularly in scenes with Jenny Calendar or Wesley, it was just painfully obvious that she was 10 years older than Buffy and Willow. I don't mind suspending a bit of disbelief but I just couldn't take her seriously as a teenager.

That's a really good point. Because, as a viewer, I'm aware that Edith has a lot to forgive Robert for, I didn't really think about it but it's true that Robert isn't usually that self-aware. Separately, I love Alun Armstrong so I loved him as Evil Butler (I spent most of the episode going "Evil Brian! Evil Brian is great!" - New Tricks fans will understand..) but I totally agree that that whole storyline made very little sense.

Avaleigh - yes, it's probably not quite fair to say that Mary turns down Matthew's proposal. But she makes it clear that she won't agree to marry him, if he is not going to be the Earl. She takes months to think about his proposal and, even when he withdraws it, she still has the opportunity (I think) to say yes, but she won't. I don't think the show could have been more clear that she didn't love him enough to commit to him if he wasn't going to be an Earl and wealthy. I don't think Mary is easily influenced, I think Rosamund and the Dowager are voicing doubts that she already has in her mind. As I say, I think it would have to be made clear how and why Mary has changed if she would now marry an Irish chauffeur.

He wasn't blown away in the same way as Gillingham or Matthew but I did think it was clear that he was struck by her beauty immediately. Pretty much the first thing he says was something along the lines of "I don't mind you being here" which, since Mary hadn't really said anything to him, kind of had to be about her looks. He then asks her to dance, despite her having been rude to him, and half promises to come to visit her at Downton. I would really have preferred to have seen something a bit different this time - why can't Mary be struck by his appearance and pursue him?

Cramps - to be fair, we don't know that the mistress was Jewish. Pretty sure that she will have named the child rather than Lord Sinderby.

I'm really not a Penny fan. I think part of it is the way that they try to portray her as "normal" when she's not - she's a standard Mean Girl type who is used to people doing what she wants because she's pretty. She is not particularly nice - she was a bully at school, she mooches off her friends, and she looks down on anyone who is different. But, somehow, we're supposed to root for her.

Thought this was a bit of a curate's egg. The first half, especially, dragged quite a lot for me. Things I liked: Carson and Mrs Hughes - aww! Though I was quite surprised - I had realised that he liked her romantically but I wasn't convinced that it was reciprocated. Molseley and Baxter - as always. Surely they will get together soon? Drunk Robert was amusing too - "You forget, I was in the army" - brilliant! All of Edith's clothes. She really looks lovely in that deep orange colour. Rose - so lovely, so socially graceful. Rose and Atticus as a couple - very sad that they are leaving. Agreed with someone up thread that losing them will cost the show more than Tom who didn't really have any storylines anyway. Things I didn't like: Bates and Anna. Just couldn't care less at this point. The writing for Mary and her Mary men. I think the very first words out of new suitor's mouth was something along the lines of "I like you, Mary!" It's just so clunky! Edith's interaction with the estate manager felt much more normal - they had a normal conversation and he was clearly a little interested and they had a dance and stuff, it felt realistic. Whereas, it somehow always seems to be necessary for the Mary men to fall for her instantaneously. So boring! Why can't we shake things up a bit and have Mary pursue a man for a change? Or have her fall for someone who is married? Even just someone who looked a bit different to all the others would help.. The soup storyline. Really? Not interested in Denker, in general. Am gutted that Isobel isn't marrying Lord Merton. Neutral on - Edith and the estate manager - reserving judgement. Agreed that he will end up replacing Tom as estate manager. Tom leaving. He is a nice guy and plays a useful role in being Edith and Mary's sounding board. But it didn't make any sense for him to live at Downton and, because of that, he has had no proper storyline in forever. I realise a certain proportion of the fanbase think the actor is really hot but he doesn't do it for me. So I can't say that I'll miss him all that much. Having said that, I thought that there were some really strong Tom/Mary hints in that episode so I'm not ruling out him returning. Re: ratings, Downton was competing with Eastenders (a very popular soap) so I suspect quite a few people will be watching it on catch-up rather than live which will have hit the immediate ratings. I think the adjusted ratings after people who watch on catch-up are published, it will do better. But the show has seen a steady decline in ratings for some time, to be honest.

Enjoyed this but thought it was a shame that there wasn't a role for Edith

Well, the Crawleys don't seem to have much of a social life so it's hard to see who would disapprove of Edith's illegitimate child anyway! I agree that Rose was married off so abruptly because they wanted to give us a happy romantic episode or two and that clearly wasn't working with Mary and the Mary men. I'm less sure about whether we'll end up with Mary/Tom - I think it might happen, not least because I don't see how the show can work if Mary marries someone who also has an ancestral home and, if she's not going to marry another aristocrat, then why not Tom. But I still find myself stuck on the fact that Mary refused to marry Matthew when it was possible that he wouldn't be an Earl - I don't think she's changed enough to marry an Irish Catholic ex-chauffeur.

I'm not a massive Vamp Willow fan either - I enjoyed watching Doppelgangland the first time but it's not an episode that I particularly enjoy rewatching. More obscure episodes that I enjoy rewatching: When She Was Bad - mostly because I really enjoy Bitchy!Buffy in it. "I'm sorry, is that an offensive term, should I have said Undead American?" Beer Bad - because I love cave!slayer. I laugh every time I see Buffy pointing at the TV "tiny little people" The Puppet Show - again, I find it really funny. I love the bit where Willow asks for the back story on Buffy's fear of dummies. "I saw a dummy. It gave me the wig. There really wasn't a story there" What's my line? Parts 1 and 2. I really enjoy Kendra and Buffy's dynamic with her. I also really like the scene on the ice rink where Buffy and Angel's romantic date is interrupted by the assassin. And the bad lamp

Shipperx - I also very much don't watch the show for Mary. That said, at the moment, a lot of Tom's screentime is used to prop up Mary in some way - Julian Fellowes likes to use him, after Mary has just said/done something horrible, to say "Mary is nice, really!" It's hard for me to see how they can give him a realistic, interesting storyline at Downton because it just makes no sense that he is there.

It's obviously a matter of opinion but I feel like lots of people think Tom is "nice" and would, on balance, prefer him to stay but I don't think many people (apart from you, Andorra) watch the show primarily for Tom.

Tom is insanely popular on here but I'm not convinced that he is that popular amongst the viewership as a whole. Certainly, the chat at my workplace and on the British forums doesn't suggest so. That said, Julian Fellowes clearly adores Tom/Allen Leech - hence keeping him around for so long when it made no sense - so I do agree that he won't actually leave.

I don't find Tom very interesting as a character, to be honest, so I am fairly indifferent to whether he stays or goes. I think the writing for him has been so uneven and inconsistent over the seasons that I just don't find the character convincing any more. I would like something - anything! - to finally happen for Daisy, it's just tedious that we get these hints that she might leave all the time but she never actually does. I hope Baxter gets more screen time.

Exactly. Also, in general, JF likes to make historical points and many children did die of various illnesses in this period. It's really not very Christmas Specialy, though so I don't think we'll see it happen immediately. I forgot one other Christmas Special prediction - Moseley and Baxter will kiss under the mistletoe. Awww.

Anyone up for some predictions for the Christmas Special? My initial thoughts are: Robert will get a puppy. It will be adorable. There will be cute scenes with the three children. I hope for some Isobel/George interaction but I fear it may not happen. Sybbie will convince Tom not to leave Downton but he will do something other than be estate manager - possibly write for Edith's newspaper? Isobel will marry Lord Merton. Potentially Tom will move into Isobel's house? Rose will announce a pregnancy. (I don't think this is for the Christmas special but I wonder if Rose will convert in the end as a solidarity thing during the run up to WWII and/or raise their children Jewish.) Either Mary will acquire yet another suitor or Blake will return (I don't think he and Mary are over.) No idea about Edith - I do think that Fellowes is quite capable of killing Marigold off but I don't think it's a Christmas Special thing.

I don't know whether this is a transatlantic thing but I know quite a number of women my age (30s) called Louise! According to this - http://www.britishbabynames.com/blog/top-1000-names-in-england-and-wales-2012.html - it was the 291st most popular girl's name in 2012.

I don't think these will ever stop. Even if she's in her 80s by the final season.

I agree - there would have been a circle of upper class families in the area, we've heard them mentioned: Lord Merton's son said that Isobel wouldn't be able to replace their mother as a leader of county society - which we have never really seen..., the Crawleys were meant to know the former inhabitants of the house that Sir Richard was buying for him and Mary, and the dinner that Mary organised back when the estate was threatened had local aristocrats attending. Having some of these families on the show would have helped enormously in a variety of ways. I do think, though, that Mary is more prone than other characters on the show to thinking that relationships between people have to be clear about who is superior (Mary) and who is inferior (everyone else), I can't picture her having a female friend who was in any way her equal. While you're right to point out that we haven't seen friendships for very many of the main characters, I can't imagine any of them failing to understand the concept!

Largely, Edith just hasn't had many scenes with anyone not in her social class, though. I don't think , she is shown to be particularly mean to anyone either though. And Mary is really only kind to the servants when it doesn't get in the way of what she wants - . For me, the WW1 stuff from Mary was just so awful that I don't think it's really possible for me to ever like the character. I understand that others feel differently,

I really don't want to see either Edith or Mary with Tom. After Sybil, I don't think he could settle for either of them - Edith is nothing like as strong as Sybil and Mary is so cold. Tom couldn't possibly be happy with someone who didn't have the guts that Sybil had (which Edith just doesn't) or someone whose parenting style is as aloof as Mary's (I doubt George would even recognise Mary at this point.) I think Edith would be the better fit - like Sybil, she has interests outside Downton, and I think Tom would need that - but neither of them are right for Tom. Mary didn't love Matthew enough to marry him if he wasn't going to be the Earl - I don't see her loving Tom enough to overcome him being an Irish Catholic land steward. I think Edith is the type of person who is capable of loving almost anyone who loves her but I think she would struggle too much with the idea of Sybil - I think she would be always comparing herself with Sybil. I don't understand why Tom's storyline is all about Boston or Downton. There are other options here! He could go and live in Liverpool or London, places with Irish communities. Sybil should grow up with contact with her Irish side as well as the Crawley side. I also don't think it is healthy for her to grow up in the same manner as George when their future prospects are so different. She won't have that much money and her origins will limit her marriage prospects, he is the heir to an Earldom. At the very least, Tom should insist on moving into the steward's cottage on the estate - Sybbie can still spend time at the Abbey, even share a nanny with George, but it would be better for him to put a little distance between them.