saki

The Turkish embassy stuff didn't start this - Mary was awful to Edith all along, that's why Edith did it, she didn't write that letter from nowhere. I also don't think that's what is in Mary's mind when she makes these comments anyway, it's just habit for her to be mean.

Agreed. But, having said that, I think I would find it unrealistic for them to have a love-in. If Sybil's death didn't bring them closer together, nothing will..

Is that what they're calling it these days?

I thought the same - I also thought Mary was attempting to be all "you're not invited" about it, which was massively undercut by Tom inviting her along. Which he almost always does - happened in the last episode too, that Mary invited Tom somewhere and Tom invited Edith. (Which is reason #23423 why I don't see the Brary, he doesn't come across as especially keen to spend time with just Mary, he's always inviting Edith or Talbot.) On Mary/Talbot - the car stuff isn't working for me. Mary has never previously seemed worried about cars - she travels in them all the time, she even travels along the same road that Matthew was killed on. It feels like a totally artificial obstacle. I didn't care for Mary at the dinner - "I don't keep my diary in my head" - like she has any engagements that aren't eating dinner with her parents, sniping at her sister and visiting the pig farm. I also find ludicrous the idea that Evelyn Napier, having spent at most 20 hours in Mary's company over 10 years ago, has never married because not one of the other attractive women in London has ever tempted him. I really enjoyed the tour-guiding scenes - all three ladies were hilarious - more of that please! And also Robert and the little philosopher was brilliant - it did feel a bit Lord Emsworth but not in a bad way.

For me, if two (or three? Don't even remember) seasons of whining were resolved by 'Oh, yeah, I belong at Downton' it would not be satisfying. I don't really care about Tom but am genuinely surprised that a Tom fan would find that OK.

I agree with Andorra that Mary has always been all.about.downton. It's Tom who I think this doesn't work for - as tedious as this has been, the last however many seasons it's been have been all about how Tom doesn't see his future at Downton. I won't find it very satisfying if after all of that whining from him about this if he decides that, actually, he does want to live out his days in aristocratic privilege given his previously expressed political views. And what about his Irish family? Are we supposed to believe that he doesn't care about them at all or Sybbie having a connection to his family?

Isazouki - me too! Though more because I feel like she overdoes the languid/bored way of talking. It's fun when it's used more sparingly - e.g. the way the Dowager does it - but when every single sentence is said as though she is bored/catatonic, it's just annoying.

Some thoughts on this episode - I couldn't decide how I felt about Robert's zombie moment. It was a bit weird and out of place on this show but, on the other hand, it did have genuine shock value. Thought the Baxter storyline was massively anticlimactic - I can't believe we didn't even see the guy after all of that. I didn't find Carson being horrible to Mrs Hughes very surprising - he was always going to be that kind of husband - but I did feel like they could do more with this storyline. It would be more interesting if both of them found the transition from a busy servants hall where they're in charge to their own quiet cottage difficult. I enjoyed the scene settling Mr Mason into his farm. With the scene back at the house, I initially thought Daisy wasn't jealous so much as feeling bad about Mr Mason being lonely, given that he has asked her to move in with him multiple times. The actor playing Mr Mason is excellent - I find it really impressive that he can say things like "move in with me, I'm lonely" to an actress under half his age and you don't get a hint of creepy! I loved Edith in London, as always, particularly her outfits which were all glorious. I did think there was a spot of bromance between Tom and Talbot - "if I'd known earlier, you could have had a go" - which made me giggle. As ever, there were some really bad bits of dialogue which mostly seemed to go to Tom. "There’s no such thing as safe motor racing. And there’s no such thing as safe love" was bad enough but then he was like that little kid with the backpack in Sleepless in Seattle with Talbot and Mary at the pub "why can't you just admit you like each other". Awkward. Bertie Pelham on the other hand seems to get good writing - I rather enjoyed his little monologue on his cousin! Thought it was hilarious that, even after overhearing Violet and Cora, Mary still hasn't quite figured out the Marigold thing.. She's not going to get a detective spin-off... I think she will mostly be upset at having been "left out" of this - I think it will annoy her that her entire family has known about this for some time and that even the servants have all figured it out.

There are lots of characters who get lots of screentime together - Isobel/Violet, Daisy/Mrs Patmore, Anna/Mary, Spratt/Dencker - at least as much as Tom/Mary so I think that it's a massive exaggeration to suggest that the show is the Tom and Mary hour. I lack the enthusiasm to count minutes but I don't think they do get more screentime together than any other two characters. I also don't see how things like "I really want money in a potential partner" when the person you're talking to has none or "I really loved your sister" are foreshadowing a romance. Can you give an example of something one could say to the other that would put you off the ship? That's what I mean when I say I feel for Fellowes because I don't think there is a whole lot. If "you're my brother" doesn't do it... I think the main reason Tom doesn't have a love interest is that JF just isn't that interested in giving Tom one - I think it's like asking why Mrs Patmore doesn't have one or why Thomas doesn't have one. I am wondering if JF has just decided that he'd rather sketch in Talbot/Mary and leave more to the imagination, given the lack of time that the show has left. Or, in short, what I said above - I don't think Talbot/Mary not being that compelling has to equal Tom/Mary. For me, that has not only not been compelling, I think the writer is doing his level best to tell us that it's not happening.

I agree that Talbot/Mary is not being written in a particularly compelling way - there isn't enough screentime with the two of them, they feel too similar to each other, both look a bit like vampires.. But I don't think that necessarily equals Tom/Mary - I feel a little sorry for Julian Fellowes on that one. I think he's going out of his way to make clear that it won't happen, with the "you're my brother" quote last episode and this episode an extended conversation about how perfect Sybil was for Tom (which given that a) she is Mary's sister and b) she and Mary were incredibly different from each other is a pretty strong indication) plus extended conversations about how Mary won't marry anyone who doesn't have money, plus Tom playing matchmaker... And, after all of that, some people still ship it! I'm not sure there is anything that Fellowes can do to shut it down. For me, personally, it wouldn't be satisfying. I think they have been portrayed as close friends but in a more sibling way than romantically and I don't think they would be a great fit - for me, Tom needs someone who is more interested in the outside world, a more radical person, and Mary needs someone whose heart is really in maintaining the estate and entrenching the family's privilege. I'm not sure that Mary will end the show married - I think she might end up either with a more ambiguous ending where she's being more proactive and pursuing what/who she wants but it's not clear how that will go or deciding that she wants to stay single and focus on the estate. I am wondering whether Mary will tell Bertie about Marigold...

I think it's a massive stretch to see "you're my brother" as foreshadowing a romance. I think JF never intended for people to see Tom/Mary - I think what happened was that the departure of Matthew left a bit of a gap for JF. There were some stories he wanted to tell about modernising the estate that he had in mind for Matthew but rewrote for Tom (that's why Tom suddenly decides that he's interested in farming rather than journalism/politics). And, also, I think JF realises that Mary is more than usually unsympathetic without a Matthew type figure for her to open up to, so he put Tom in that role too. That plus them naturally being paired on estate storylines is making people see it as a romance but I really think that was an accidental byproduct of a writing problem that JF found himself in. On the same writing problem basis, JF has also used Tom to give Edith someone who takes her side in the family (as well as building up Rosamund's role)

Don't forget Mrs P! Sadly, I'm not sure that there is a romance planned for her but we can but hope...

I didn’t expect to but I did really enjoy seeing Gwen again and it was nice to have a conversation about Sybil. It reminded me just how amazing Sybil was and how much I miss her! Totally agree with Glade that the rants about how great capitalism is were pretty forced and unpleasant. Thought Mary/Talbot came across as really artificial. I rarely enjoy watching Mary flirt and it’s because, I think, of the way that she is so arrogant about it “I will enjoy the process of you hitting on me while I don’t respond immensely”, not exactly alluring (to me, anyway.) Mrs Patmore is having a quietly genius season, “You couldn’t be harder on those potatoes if you wanted to make them confess to spying.” What is the point of Tom? The show has spent so long doing the “Should I stay or should I go?” dance with him that I just could not care less. That said, I did giggle to myself when Robert was sad that Tom missed dinner – one feels that missing a big meal is perhaps not such a bad thing for Tom. I remain confused by the Tom/Mary shipping – I don’t see any chemistry at all and, yeah, while I agree that they have a good open relationship, I honestly don’t see that that’s any different to his relationship with Edith (e.g. him knowing about Marigold ahead of her parents). It feels very sibling-esque to me on all sides. I don't see someone who loved Sybil loving Mary (who has no interest in anything outside Downton, unlike Sybil who couldn't wait to leave and experience new things) or Edith (who is so much more cautious than Sybil was)

I completely disagree - I don't see a major difference there at all. I think Tom has been given a lot of moments with Mary but he has also been given a lot of moments with Edith. I think his relationship with both is very strong.

I feel like Daphne definitely has the character that shifts around the most to fit the plot - which leads to things like her being unexpectedly mean occasionally but also to her intelligence level varying massively as well.

I think Tom/Mary is really unlikely. We know that Julian Fellowes is not a subtle storyteller so the fact that Mary's reaction to seeing Tom again was pretty similar to Edith's, I think tells us that they aren't slated to be a couple - I think we'd have seen a significantly stronger reaction from Mary, to foreshadow. I think, also, on a shallow note, that Tom's weight gain makes this less likely - I just don't see JF pairing Mary off with someone who isn't more attractive. I also just really dislike the idea personally - I know Tom's character is now all over the place and almost unrecognisable from how he was originally introduced but I just don't see someone who loved Sybil being able to love Mary.

Some quick thoughts: I did enjoy Edith and the chap who makes coffee and sandwiches. He was lovely and it was great to see Edith looking happy and purposeful. I also (on a really superficial point) really loved the hats this episode – everyone had great ones, Mrs Hughes, Cora, Edith, etc Thomas and the creepy interview was creepy. I do wish that they’d show times changing at Downton not just elsewhere – it’s ridiculous that all the other great houses are operating on a shoestring but Downton still has someone ironing a newspaper.. not to mention an under-butler and women who aren’t even combing their own hair. Tom – almost didn’t recognise him, apparently American portion sizes even then were larger… I have no interest in this storyline. I don’t understand why he stayed at Downton, I don’t understand why he left, I don’t understand why he’s back again. His personality seems to have morphed out of all recognition – does he care about Ireland any more? Is he still a socialist? Who knows? It’s like they just recast Matthew. Hard to watch Daisy – it’s just so obvious that she’s jumped the gun with Mr Mason Absolutely loved Daisy, Anna and Mrs Patmore having a girly conversation about Mrs Hughes’ dress, particularly dissing her previous choice! Couldn’t believe Carson said that all he needed for his wedding was Lady Mary turning up… um, I think Mrs Hughes turning up might be more important…. Robert totally has Chekhov’s indigestion…

My main one is probably Steve from Sex and the City. We're supposed to think he's just this great guy who teaches Miranda how to compromise and 'lighten up' but what I see is someone who basically believes that Miranda should do what he wants. He never once compromises for her. From minor things, like insisting that his schedule is more important than hers and she just has to get over the fact that he can't see her until very late at night, to more major things like guilt tripping her for not being ok with him wandering in and out of her apartment after they've broken up, whenever he feels like it, to see the baby.. From the very first, when he refuses to take no for an answer when she doesn't want to date him, I hate Steve. And the message that this sends - women with careers, you better learn the lesson that you have to do whatever your man wants, or you're a bad person.

If it had been left to Mary and Tom, the Drewes would never have been allowed to take on the tenancy in the first place, if you want to go back further... I do have sympathy for the Drewes - but I also have sympathy for Edith. I feel like this is just one of those situations. I don't really see what Edith could do at this point - I don't exactly think an apology to Mrs Drewe is at all pointful, I don't think that it would help Mrs Drewe in the slightest. I think most women in Mrs Drewe's position would be sad but would be getting on with their busy life with four kids, farm to help run, as I said earlier, I don't think Edith could have predicted this level of reaction. On another note, why is Carson so hostile to Thomas this season?

I entirely agree that she needs medical help. But I don't think that her reaction is the 'normal' reaction for a woman who has lost a child - for me, this episode made clear that she had an underlying mental illness which this experience has triggered. I don't think that bit can be blamed on Edith.

I thought this episode made clear that Mrs Drew is mentally ill – the final scene suggested that she was having almost a psychotic break. That was clearly triggered by Marigold/Edith but I thought it was clear that it ran much deeper than that. I don’t think Edith has acted perfectly here but I think, mostly, this is just a really sad and difficult situation for everyone and I think it’s unfair to say that it’s all Edith’s fault. I don’t think it’s anyone’s ‘fault’ per se but I think, if I were to blame anyone, it would probably be Mr Drew – who a) should never have agreed to keeping the secret from his wife and b) as he kind of admitted in this episode, should have realised that his wife would not be able to cope with this. Even if Edith took Marigold to London, she would still want to be able to bring her to Downton from time to time for visits/Christmas/etc so I don’t think that would be a permanent solution. I agree that this was a good episode for Mary – but I don’t think it’s fair to say that she is always kind and thoughtful and Edith never thinks of others. I think what we saw in this episode is consistent with what we’ve always seen – that Mary has a small number of people that she’s close to (Anna and Carson being prominent amongst them) and she will do things for them (which is nice) but she won’t hesitate to steam roller them if they don’t agree with her (Anna and the contraception, Matthew and the Swire inheritance) and she doesn’t have much ability to see an opposing viewpoint or think about anything that doesn’t directly relate to her. So, for instance, I can’t believe that Mary hasn’t figured out the Marigold thing – it just underlines her lack of interest in others… it’s just really obvious at this point! Edith has shown, particularly in WW1 where Mary did nothing for the war effort other than nurse Matthew and complain about singing a song, that she can have empathy for people who are not directly connected to her. Some other random observations: I really enjoyed Carson and Mrs Hughes in this episode – think it’s interesting to see their dynamic. I think Carson handled it all wrong – if he’d said “This is my home, this is where we met, this is where we fell in love, this is where I’d like to celebrate our marriage”, Mrs Hughes might have gone for it, “This is what Lady Mary wants” was not the right approach… This episode reminds me that I actually quite like Cora – she is quite a background character but I like the good sense and tact that she shows. I liked how quickly she stepped in to go with Mary to the Drewes, as well as her instinctive understanding that Mrs Hughes might not want her reception at Downton. I rolled my eyes at the fact that Julian Fellowes just can’t have Mary lose anything – she even has to win a minor pig competition… I wish that we had a bit more detail on Edith and the magazine – it’s hard to know whether the editor is actually awful or whether he’s right that Edith doesn’t know what she’s doing, we just haven’t been given enough info. I love Molesley and Baxter – when are they going to get engaged? When? Is she going to have to propose?

I thought this was a solid enough start to the season - better than I was expecting, actually! I do find Carson/Mrs Hughes a bit fanficcy in feel but I like it anyway.. I found Mrs Patmore genuinely hilarious. On a shallow note, I thought Edith looked absolutely stunning this episode - the 20s fashions really suit her and the actress was just glowing. As others have said, Robert's "and now, I see that you'd be great at managing the estate" thing was really weird - I didn't follow how refusing to be blackmailed had anything to do with Mary's estate management skills. On that note, I did find it mildly amusing that, just after they'd all talked about how incredibly hard the estate management work was, they showed Mary having breakfast in bed with her lady's maid hovering to help her with the tough task of getting dressed and brushing her hair. All the talk about fewer servants, etc, might actually be meaningful if they showed how the life of the Crawleys had actually changed - there may be fewer servants but you can't actually see any differences. I'm not saying, to channel Cora, that they have to go down the mine or anything but showing them having to do more things for themselves would help. With the estate sale, as I've said before on here, I just felt like it didn't really mean much because they hadn't bothered to introduce us to these people before - if we'd met them a few times, even in the background at dinner parties or whatever, we might actually care that this family had to sell up.

As I've said before on here, I think, while I don't know what the legal position is, it would be incredibly unusual and I can't remember it ever happening, for a British TV channel to replace the lead writer on a show without their permission/involvement. It's just not done. It's why the writing is often (though by no means always!) more unified/tighter on British shows but also why they have fewer episodes.

The way I felt about it was that I just plain did not get the sense that Miranda was in love with Steve - there were really extremely few episodes where they weren't in conflict. Of course, it's a TV show and they need storylines so it's not going to be completely plain sailing but Miranda didn't even enjoy their two day honeymoon! I loved Miranda as a character overall, what I didn't love was the sense I had that the writers felt they needed to punish/humiliate her in order to maker her worthy.

I don't know whether it's a legal/official thing or just convention but, in the UK, it absolutely isn't only up to the TV network to decide on what happens to a show. If Julian Fellows decides he doesn't want to write another season, it would be highly unusual - I can't think of it ever happening - for the network to decide to hire another writer to continue it. So, in a way, he does have a certain amount of power. Of course, the decision to stop can also be taken by the network. I.e. either JF or the network can decide to stop the show. I think it's up to the powers that be to make sure that contracts are written such as to give the writer the notice that he needs to adjust scripts if someone wants to leave - I don't think it's ok to expect an actor to give more notice than contractually necessary. Of course, like with any job, if you've made your decision and can let your employer know early, you should, but I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that Dan Stevens did make his decision earlier than he informed the show.