SueB

I did. The moment he took on the Mark of Cain he developed even more exceptional hunting skills. He either didn't sleep or slept minimally. He drank quarts of whiskey and seemed sober. And then he stopped eating and started yakking. I think the Mark would have killed him if Metatron didn't.

IA, he's supernatural (pun intended) at this moment. His soul may be untwisted but just having the Mark at a minimum is like actively having a curse on you.

Thanks for bringing that over to the discussion. I wonder if Dean thought John used Sam as bait after his second experience with the Striga? And yeah, John was an asshole when it came to arguing. He lost me when he failed to contact Sam when Dean was dying. Then it went downhill when he chewed out Dean for the car. It was such a little thing but I cringe every time I see that scene. Berating Dean seemed like a common occurrence. Finally, it's possible John never accepted that Sam letting him live was the right answer. To some extent, his subsequent death might have been a 'screw you' to both the boys. John Implied that if Sam had killed him in the cabin then John wouldn't have had to make the trade. The net result in both cases was John dead but no gun and YED lives. OTOH his starting position on negotiation was 'gun for Dean'. So that's technically akin to saving a life and letting YED go. Was John making a positive statement towards family with that first offer or was he low balling the bid, knowing YED would demand more? It's hard to be certain IMO. It always bothered me that the only option he tried was a deal. Was he that smart that he knew it was Dean's only chance or did he just want a guaranteed way and was fatalistic?

I think it's normal he wants that. I think his ability to actually pull it off as often as he apparently does is fairly unusual. Photos up for Hibbing 911: http://Actually Dean is pretty normal in that he just wants a hookup and no strings attached and beds beautiful women. I hope Sheriff Donna is a great as she was last time. She was goofy but there was also some nice character moments for her.

From the promo, we know that is 100% correct. The episode idea didn't come from Comic Con. In the writer process they are well past concept and outline before they are actually writing the episode (which is were Berens was). The only thing that came out of Comic Con was Dean's "about" description on the app. It was kinda perfect for the episode so Bobo used it. First, as his brother, this is PERFECT mocking material. I hold nothing against Sam for mocking Dean on this -- what little brother wouldn't? It reminded me of when they were acting like 12 year olds in Tall Tale and started to wrestle on the bed for the money clip. Alas, they were in public. But even though Dean didn't want Sam to tease him about it, he doesn't seem desperate to me. Dean said "don't knock it till you've tried it." Maybe he used it while a demon and found it an easy way to get fast hookups without any song and dance? Regardless, it appears he's happy with the outcome so maybe this is not his first use. Someone on tumblr blew up the screen messages and Shaylene (sp?) "cuts right to the chase" about it essentially being nothing but a hookup and Dean's response is "you're my kind of gal". Maybe he realized the dating app allows him to sort thru the bullshit and find a girl who is looking for exactly what he wants. Dean's "love life" is not about finding a relationship. He's resigned himself to hookups and that's that. I think judging Dean's choice to use the app by regular people standards doesn't fit. And Dean knows he's good looking. He was just groped by a cougar in the last episode (and they are just coming back from Connecticut). He may have low self-esteem but he's never shown any doubt regarding his ability to get a woman into bed. Which is what leads me to believe, this is a convenience for him. OTOH, he IS being "dumb Dean", by thinking there's nothing fishy about an extremely hot woman who sext's like a Penthouse letter. That's got honey trap (some variation of) written all over it. Then again, the dude appeared to have done nothing but "booze & babes" during his 6 weeks of 'howling at the moon'. Including triplets (I don't understand those logistics BTW). Maybe he's just that sure of himself that if there's someone like whom Shaylene is stating she is, well he's just EXACTLY the kinda guy she'd go for. So... perhaps it's overconfidence (based on recent experience) that is preventing him from seeing what is obvious to most. He's not exactly "normal" when it comes to the "attractiveness" scale. He's frankly all manner of hot. If all he ever beds are hot chicks, then he may think she's no different than his usual draw. Bottom line: Dean is NOT normal. He only wants hookups and he appears to have bed a large number of hot women. These two factors are more likely to combine to make this "dumb!Dean" moment than Dean is lonely, desperate, and stupid IMO.

Interestingly, though, the audition scene is the one on the bridge (from the Pilot) where they are arguing about their mother. Which is, of course, the family connect. I think it was a good audition scene because it hit both the drama and the chemistry button. Seeing Jared's audition tape (it was on one of the DVDs), a single character in that scene just doesn't get the job done. It needed both.

If I gave the impression that I thought Kripke ignored Dean then I need to clarify. On the contrary, I think he saw the two together and realized his show was not what he originally thought but would be much better with an emphasis on family. And that's a testament to the J2 chemistry and frankly Jensen's talent. He could go for far more meaty interpersonal stories and did so. In th Special, they all credit 'Faith' with the episode that really changed the dynamic. And Kripke said it was a lot about Dean. What I was trying to say is that the basic plot arc for Sam's character was straightforward. What they did with Dean is bring out the major theme of the show (family). It was an evolved theme but one that rests pretty heavily on Dean's POV. I'm not a literary expert (clearly) but I am under the impression that plot and subject actually are transcended by overall theme. Now both Sam and Dean have pieces of plot, can be the subject, and express the theme. But whatever the theme Kripke originally intended, it was changed by the time they got to Faith.

Another visual eulogy, as it was pretty visual friendly. The "Three Men" of "The Third Man". -- Frontierland -- My Heart Will Go On +Live Free or TwiHard 32 - Frontierland 31 - Weekend at Bobby's 30 - Appointment in Samarra 28 - The French Mistake 27 - The Man Who Would Be King 23 - Mommy Dearest 21 - The Man Who Knew Too Much 21 - Live Free or Twihard 14 - Clap Your Hands If You Believe 07 - My Heart Will Go On In flagrante with the King of Hell All Dogs Go to Heaven Unforgiven Mannequin 3: The Reckoning Like a Virgin Family Matters And Then There Were None Let it Bleed Caged Heat Exile on Main St. You Can't Handle the Truth Two and a Half Men The Third Man

Just watched again. 'We detoured 8 hours so you could get laid?' 'Yeah, so don't wait up' I missed that line from Sam (about the 8 hr detour). I know these guys drive a lot but 8 hrs is a long drive. Sounds like Dean doesn't do this all the time. And yes, Dean could get many women. But maybe he was, IDK, looking for something a little different. Random hookups have to get boring I would think. My only issue is the security one. Maybe he's a little sure of himself in terms of abity to handle trouble?

Demon residue?

Yes, it's Dumb Dean. But I can't help but laugh. His "About" is what Jensen said at Comic Con: "Rolling through town, no strings attached." I'm thinking Jensen doesn't get a writing credit for one line though.

Sneak peek VIDEO for tomorrow's "Girls, Girls, Girls" http://www.screenfad.com/supernatural/supernatural-sneak-peek-s10e07-girls-girls-girls-28633#sthash.n3NrbmbY.dpbs And yes, Dean really is doing the dating app thing for real. Sam's worried she's some trucker from Canada (she's not) BUT Admiral Ackbar is screaming.

Well IA with catrox14 (from previous thread), I'd really love to know when John found out about Sam's special status. I had always presumed it was when he got his "fresh lead" on the YED and left Dean (...Dad's on a hunting trip and he hasn't been home in a few days). Given that he LEFT his journal in Jericho (?) with coordinates for a new hunt -- presumably for Dean only -- it seems like no matter when had the first inkling, his focus on YED ramped up after that point and he wanted Dean to just go about normal hunting. But regardless of whether or not John knew Dean would drag Sam into the fight, YED went after Jess to kickstart Sam back in. Here's today's horrible thought: what if John figured out something and started to get close and the reason YED burned Jess was to "take the gloves off". So John's investigation is what triggered the burning. Not that Jess wasn't living on a landmind to begin with -- regardless of Brady's introduction, YED taking her out to motivate Sam seems not only matches what he said in the cabin but makes sense. But Sam and the rest of the Special Kids were triggered, I thought, JUST BEFORE Jess burned. Their abilities (I think) were all initiated at the same time. And Sam hadn't had the death visions until just before Jess was killed (but BEFORE Dean brought him back in). So... to me...all signs point to John somehow kicking over a nest and YED's response was to "activate" the Special Kids. PS: Excellent title.

Long post EATEN by my computer. Insert IMO for every sentence. Short version: "Better to Burn Out than Fade Away" -- Kripke thesis statement IMO along with song lyrics for Dean's interruption of the apocalypse. Sam's story straightforward: S1-2 Fight against darkside, S3-4 go darkside, S5 redemption. Dean's was less story and more ethos: family is what matters Sam goes out Butch & Sundance style. Dean enables Sam to take control by staying by his side, even if he was going to die. Dean gets a pre-made family. Everyone else probably died originally. Kripke stated he LOVED the finale and was disappointed that everyone didn't love it as much. So, even with what I suspect was a change (Bobby lives, Cas lives, and Sam comes back) -- I think Kripke was happy because in the end, it was "familial love that enabled Sam's redemption". Seems pretty straightforward to me. I KNOW Mileage Varies. I'm just speaking to what I think was Kripke's intent and why he was happy with the outcome. PS DittyDotDot, I need my brain back from 4-6 pm, otherwise you can continue to share it as I'm just doing laundry.

I'd have to say yes as per Joshua God granted them salvation. ITA that exploring Sam's time doesn't remotely make up for failing to explore Dean's time. I'm just saying there's rationale why they didn't make the same mistake twice. And I also agree, I'd love them to somehow explore the impact again given Dean's current issues.

Well in lieu of a lengthy eulogy over Two Men and a Baby, I offer: Two Babies and a Man The episode certainly had it's memorable moments. Frontierland -- Appointment in Samarra -- The French Mistake -- 35 - Frontierland 35 - Appointment in Samarra 35 - Weekend at Bobby's 29 - The French Mistake 27 - The Man Who Would Be King 23 - Live Free or Twihard 23 - Mommy Dearest 23 - The Man Who Knew Too Much 15 - Clap Your Hands If You Believe 13 - My Heart Will Go On 07 - The Third Man In flagrante with the King of Hell All Dogs Go to Heaven Unforgiven Mannequin 3: The Reckoning Like a Virgin Family Matters And Then There Were None Let it Bleed Caged Heat Exile on Main St. You Can't Handle the Truth Two and a Half Men

Interestingly enough, I just read an old interview scanned in on Tumblr (dustily): http://dustily.tumblr.com/post/54237965268/eric-kripke-interview-from-issue-8-of-the Seems to me, they didn't have a detailed plan for Dean to go to Hell and their focus was Sam going dark. They improvised due to the writers' strike. So they dumped Dean in Hell, raised him up and that was the B-story to Sam's going dark A-story. But now add Jensen Ackles and the amazing Misha Collins and it's hard not to see this is a missed opportunity. IMO they had to introduce Angels to yank Dean out of hell -- and the whole show changed. Now I had heard about the Angels coming out of the writer's strike but now it sure looks more incidental to solving the logistics issue (how to get Dean back quickly) than the Micheal vs Lucifer vessel plot. Does anyone know WHEN the vessel plot was introduced? Was it always the plan for dark side Sam or just how it manifested? Regardless, I think Kripke had Sam going to Hell early on (at least NLT early S5), which gave them at least from January (when the decision was made to continue SPN) to June to correct the mistake of not really handling Dean's hell story all that well by doing more with Sam's. Shit happens.

I read that. The author said: But didn't follow up with any rationale why she thinks that. Is the TV Line blurb. But it doesn't say he decides to be a demon. Carver has said MoC drives the storyline this Season. But it could be that Dean gets more active in trying to eliminate the Mark. Not that he embraces demonhood. Am I missing something?

As you said, pool hustling/credit card fraud for money is an example. It's actually the biggest IMO because it shows them living outside the law for daily subsistence. Another is a lack of interaction with other hunters. We had two episodes where they crossed in S9 (the retired hunter in First Born and the two in Devil May Care). Even Sonny in Bad Boys was like the distant past versus current lifestyle. Of course all their old friends are dead. We've had some off-screen references to other hunters but it feels more remote. And the Men of Letters home as their gathering place is much nicer than Bobby's or Rufus' cabin.

First, now Hee Haw (Sallll-ute!) is stuck in my head. Second, chronic pain suck 7kstar. I hope there is a solution in your near future. Third, it's really interesting to see what works and doesn't work as this show ages and brings in a new generation of fans. As for the brothers back to liking each other... 'SweetOnDean' is a blogger who remarked that the last three episodes were sort of like a breath of fresh air. After the bitterness of last season and the sucking chest wounds inflicted in Soul Survivor, having the brothers work hard to get back to functioning well has felt good. I put some of this in All Seasons, but you can see how eggshell-like the brother relationship was during Paper Moon. Compare their comfort then to how they were talking to each other in Ask Jeeves. At least I (and SweetOnDean) saw that some healing had occurred. I know I needed that.

I'm downvoting Two and Half Men, not because it's particularly bad, but someone has to go. But let's be clear: Dean humming "Smoke On The Water" while cuddling with a baby is TOTALLY an ovary bursting moment. He should be a Dad. Plain and simple. And that he's not is just another part of the tragedy of his existence. *sigh* -- Frontierland ++ Live Free or TwiHard -- Two and a Half Men 37 - Frontierland 35 - Weekend at Bobby's 35 - Appointment in Samarra29 29 - The French Mistake 27 - The Man Who Would Be King 23 - Mommy Dearest 23 - The Man Who Knew Too Much 21 - Live Free or Twihard 17 - Clap Your Hands If You Believe 11 - My Heart Will Go On 09 - The Third Man 01 - Two and a Half Men In flagrante with the King of Hell All Dogs Go to Heaven Unforgiven Mannequin 3: The Reckoning Like a Virgin Family Matters And Then There Were None Let it Bleed Caged Heat Exile on Main St. You Can't Handle the Truth

I think as the seasons progressed the stereotypes got worse, but I certainly felt a kinship with the mid-western blue collar world Kripke created at the start. In fact it's what really drew me into the show in the first place. Those were MY people. I read commentary about how horrible John was to Sam and Dean and that he should have given them up or something and I'm like....WTF? Yeah, he raised them like warriors and the moving them about was awful but he didn't beat them (at least not very much**) or do anything perverted. And yes, that's the blue collar mid-western world I grew up in. Every family had secrets. And that stayed within the family. Alcoholism, children out of wedlock, Uncle such & such did jail time, Cousin so & so didn't come back right from the war (Vietnam). Please note I'm not remotely suggesting this is a "better" way. No, I'm just suggesting that the original premise speaks to me but I think it comes as child abuse to many who didn't grow up in the mid-west blue collar world of the 60's and 70's (yes, I know Sam and Dean are two decades later ... but I've spoken at length that this is Kripke's childhood era he's reflecting...which is timewarped). People are shocked and horrified by Bobby's "boo hoo princess speech" and that "family makes you miserable". Well, I'm not shocked. That's my people. And those attitudes? Well, they don't really work with a younger audience and certainly not in the internet era. So the show has dropped some of the rough and tumble because it's unseemly. It made sense from a narrative perspective that John was sort of "stuck" in his upbringing and applied that to Sam and Dean. But now, years later, much more exposed to the world, those attitudes don't really work. So, Sam and Dean are still blue collar but they are well read and savvy on many topics well beyond their isolated roots. Subsequently, I don't think the blue collar angle makes sense any more. As for how class is depicted today? Well I think they've just fallen back to "have and have-nots". And in the SPN universe, "haves" are snooty and "have nots" are a spectrum of more relate able people. **yes, corporal punishment was alive and well in the 70's. As long as there was no blood, there was no foul where I grew up.

I kinda feel bad as a "new" fan. Like maybe I'm a usurper to the original fans. I know as a Smallville fan I was DESPERATE to see it over. Smallville And I was soooooo ready for that. Plus, I hated their Lois Lane. I fell in love with the proto-Lois (Chloe) and there was very little the actual Lois Lane could do stop me from resenting the hell out of her. So... it was a relief when it was over. I survived the last seasons by using the DVR technique when I could convince myself to. OTOH, I'm still fresh to SPN. It's still event TV for me. I'm sure in 5 more years (IF it was to go that long), I'd be bitter-ranting too. But I'm not there yet. So, while I totally respect those who just want it over and feel absolutely CHAINED to watch til the bitter end... I don't want it to end. So... I'll send condolences to those who feel trapped and continue to bubble about in other threads.

S10 up through "Ask Jeeves".... While I agree that Demon!Dean finished too soon, I know I saw it coming as soon as it was clear the 200th episode was EP#5 we were kinda screwed. That they wanted to do a special episode was obvious. When they said it was "musical-ish", that was the nail in the coffin. They HAD to have Sam and Dean working back together because a comedy episode with Dean as a demon -- especially as mean as Dean was (really? blaming Sam for Mary's death...perfectly demonic...well done Demon!Dean) -- was never going to work. So...I get it. They also needed a reason to get the bro's working back together. ALL major time separations have been off-screen. It's part of the show premise. So...given they needed the boys back together and Dean not the villain... I think they've done a good job. And I think "Ask Jeeves" sort of cements the theory that straying from the Dean Mark of Cain story was temporary. Because the very first episode after #200, we've got Dean making his first kill and clearly triggering the MoC. So, reviewing the bidding: EP1: Black - Dean is having a party with his bestie Crowley until Crowley starts to put the screws on him to get back into the whole "running hell" thing -- Dean is not down with that. EP 2 Reichenbach - Dean needs to feed the MoC and accept the assignement to kill for Crowley, but not really, he kills the guy HE wants and officially breaks up w/ Crowley. Who takes the First Blade as payment for ratting Dean out to Sam. EP 3: Dean REALLY doesn't want to be cured and nearly murders Sam while Sam tries the blood ritual. And in lovely sequence, Crowley saves Cas, Cas saves Sam, and Sam saves Dean. Boo-yah! EP 4: Rehabing for ~3 weeks (BTS data I think supports this but not said "in-show"), Dean's itching for a case. They go after Kate but Dean's hesitant to trigger the Mark (IMO but I think I'm right on this one), and Sam wants to be the one who makes the kills (cause he's worried too). EP 5: #200th special. Sam ganks Callopie, brothers are re-invigorated back to "Saving People, Hunting Things, the Family Business". EP 6: It's all fun and (Clue) games until Dean plugs the shifter. Then it's evident the MoC has been triggered and worried face ensues on Sam. From the big arc of the season (Mark of Cain), I gotta say I think they played it as best they could GIVEN the two decisions 1) have Sam and Dean back together and 2) a fan-happy #200.

I was re-watching today while doing laundry and I wanted to comment on a couple of things: - "The Chosen One' in the song...has SPN always talked about Sam with the Chosen One arc or is that a shout-out to fandom? - It was pointed out that Marie acknowledged Dean as THE Dean at the end when she gave him the Samulet. I got that ...in theory...but I didn't really "get that" until I saw Dean's reaction this re-watch. He does a double take and essentially acknowledges how she's talking to him. Others pointed it out but this is my first time seeing it...it's the little things that make me happy. - I don't read or write fan-fiction (I'm already obsessed enough thxuverymuch) but I WOULD if someone were to write a continuation of the Marie/Chuck conversation. So...if it happens and those who read fanfic find it...give me a shout will 'ya? Putting this one in context with the next episode in the "All Episodes Thread" because I presume everything past this episode should be talked elsewhere.....