cereality

Why don't the Duggars see that it's a bad sign that their future son in law is moving in with this already? This is just the beginning of the road of JB providing housing and income for Ben and Jessa. I don't understand why it's SO difficult for him to find a job on his own? Chad Paine moved to Erin's town before they got married, but Chad neither lived with the Bates nor worked for the tree service; I believe he picked up a job (through a Bates friend) at a metals company. JB knows everyone in their small town -- surely he could get someone to hire his future son in law for some no-skills required type of manual work? I kind of understand Pa Seewalds' frustration now. He said things in his blog about a girl's family being too controlling or making you jump through too many hoops. He may think it's a bit too much to dangle a guesthouse, which of course allows him time with his girlfriend all day, every day, as well as a "job" in front of his horny 19 yr old because now -- no matter what his own mom and dad say -- this kid will never figure it out on his own because he knows the Duggars will provide. All the teens are so full of $hit. I LOVE Ben talking about how he was so excited for a job opportunity allowing him to move to the area; um -- your future father in law made up a job for you. Do you REALLY believe that he desperately needs your help with construction or lawn mowing when he has 10 strapping sons of his own -- at least 5 of whom are of age to take care of those jobs?? And does anyone need marriage or courting advice from the wise Jill and Derick -- despite their 2 full months of experience?? I LOVE Joy Anna -- loved how she said they will start charging $5/hour to chaperone so they'll make money or maybe the relationship will fizzle -- and Jana kind of nodded in agreement. Love Joy Anna -- she is smart enough that she sees this for the $hitshow that it is.

Watching the marathon -- the episode with the auction -- Michelle seems like a cartoon. I think she has gone so far overboard on the "women must sound sweet in order to seem feminine" that she sounds unbelievable. Extreme sing-song voices and "awws" when talking about dollar figures?? No wonder they believe that a woman can't be a business-person -- I mean can you imagine anyone at any Fortune 500 taking you seriously in any capacity if you sing the numbers to them in a budget meeting?

It annoys and amazes me how much the older Duggar kids don't ever stand up to their parents. I don't even mean for the big things like college or career or courting -- because that kind of disobedience would get them sent to the prayer closet and/or ALERT. But I'm shocked that they don't whine for little things like TV, books etc. Maybe that's just how kids become when you beat the will out of them? But we all know how persistent teens can be when they want something. I think we've seen social media pics of some of the kids at Razorback games. You'd think Josiah or Joseph would come home from that and beg his parents for a TV. When they say no -- it's defrauding -- you'd think he'd try every argument in the book --- we could block everything but ESPN, games aren't defrauding; you could watch with us and make us turn it off if you thought it was inappropriate; but Josh and Anna have a TV don't you think they're good Christians -- and on and on. I feel like they could win on a few things as their parents are pretty much checked out -- if they only tried. Is this just a lack of critical thinking skills? Just giving up on life?

If Jill's birth ends up on camera, it is entirely Jill's doing and no one else's -- I'm not sure that I'll feel bad for her like I did for Anna. Anna is a sister in law who married the eldest son. Whatever Josh and JB and Michelle said went. She was a naïve fundie girl who married young and likely had probably heard "birth is hard but God will take care of you." If she had never been to a birth before, or not paid close attention to any home birth her mom may have had -- she may have had zero idea what it would really be like -- the pain, what it feels like to be completely out there for everyone to see, where doctors/nurses hands go etc. It's not like she had the ability to watch a birthing video or even a TLC program on birth. If she expressed any fears -- which most first time moms do -- I'm sure her mother in law and/or mom just provided the religious perspective and downplayed the whole thing and then Josh strong armed her into birthing on camera. These fundie girls are a bit overwhelmed because of how sheltered they are and the lack of info they have, and then JB and Michelle just take advantage of it to make a TV show. There was an early pregnancy appointment for Anna where the dr. said they had to do a transvag ultrasound. Anna had a look of horror on her face -- as I'm sure many women have when they have to do certain ob-gyn procedures for the first time. The camera was up in her face to record that look of horror and even the dr. looked like she felt bad and patted her on the shoulder and said it was not that bad. With Jill -- she has more idea than anyone -- including her mom -- of what birth is really like. She has attended a LOT of them even in the short 6 months to 1 yr she's trained. She knows the pain, awkwardness, nervousness and everything. She can easily say -- sorry Pops, I know it's good for TV ratings but no way can I do that in front of anyone besides Derick. What exactly would he do? He can't strong arm Derick who isn't his son, doesn't rely on TLC income, and isn't the one giving birth; if his daughter says no, JB is kind of stuck to find other programming.

The pop culture stuff -- maybe that's excusable because he knows that she didn't grow up with any access to TV. But the Duggars do tell everyone they are homeschooled. Most people who homeschool do teach their kids something -- at least the basics. Little does Derick realize that ATI homeschool is nothing but bible verses and worksheets. To be a fly on the wall the next time he's watching the news on a weekend and makes some comparison of the current state of the world to some big event like the Civil War or Vietnam War or desegregation or the space race -- and she has no clue what he's talking about or spews some odd religious statement about those big historical events. He may then quickly realize that he doesn't want her homeschooling. On the plus side, if they do send their kid to school and Jill helps with homework -- she may be one of the few parents who actually learns stuff for the first time from her kid's 4th grade social studies unit.

Now that you mention it, I could see Derick being on the shy side. If I recall that article correctly, I think he didn't make Pistol Pete the first time and then spent a lot of time practicing to make it in the next go around. Between that and school, he may not have had time for a real girlfriend. He was also likely around the football team and cheerleaders and it's possible that party lifestyle was a bit too "fast" for him. Besides there's less and less real dating at colleges now and more of a hook-up culture, so it's possible that he wasn't attracted to that either given his conservative upbringing. I'm sure it was a bit isolating to be in Nepal -- no chance of finding a girlfriend there and certainly not one who'd come back to Arkansas with him. So maybe he has been on some dates, to prom, kissed/held hands etc. but is reasonably inexperienced like Jill. I agree that he'll want more of an equal partnership than JB and Michelle or Ben and Jessa. I think he doesn't and won't control Jill the way fundie men control their wives, but in return I think he'll want his wife to support his dreams and wishes too -- whether that means doing a mission trip for a year or two, easing away from reality TV and media engagements sometimes, or having a large family of 5 kids instead of 15 kids.

I wonder how the Bates home functions and whether there are kids that really drink the kool aid and will report every infraction to mom and dad, or whether it is one where every kid is encouraged to have his/her own relationship with God without fear of mom and dad, being sent to Alert etc. From what little we've seen, it doesn't seem like there is an element of fear in the Bates family -- it seems like a relatively fun family, though who knows what is true. As for the Duggars, I don't get why the kids don't work together more. There are only 2 parents who are pretty much checked out; Jill and Josh were the real kool aid drinkers and they're gone. If Joseph decides he wants to talk to a Bates daughter, how hard would it be to bring Josiah to his gym under the guise of needing a work out buddy. Meanwhile he can jump on the phone for 45 min with Josiah as a lookout who can throw something at him if he sees the parents coming; heck they could build a little library of contraband books out there which I'm sure Amy or Grandma would purchase for them and Josiah could use his lookout time to read science books or finance books or whatever he likes. The Bates kids seem "close" like that. I think it was shown that Carlin and Erin are really close and Carlin kept breaking down when thinking about E's wedding. I feel like now that Erin is out of the house, if Carlin told her she really wanted some book to read and gave her cash for it -- presuming it wasn't about sex or something -- I can see Erin buying it and discreetly handing it off without reporting to her parents that Carlin wanted to read about science.

He knew what he was getting into when he got involved with JB and then further involved with JB's daughter. He also seems like a nice guy. I'm sure there are fundie guys who would say -- you're married to me, I'm the headship, this is how we will live. Derick doesn't seem like that at all. He seems like he loves -- or will grow to love -- Jill and wants her to feel comfortable. She grew up around TLC and the media and enjoys it; she truly believes in her family's ways -- he does not seem like he will tear her away from that immediately. Over time, I think his ways may start influencing her and they may start pulling back from the media etc., but for now he is letting her and her family run the show -- that means courtship rules, barely knowing his wife before he married her and never speaking to her alone, announcing pregnancies to People at 8 weeks, and being on the show. It's also possible that he is a bit overwhelmed by everything -- they went from courtship to marriage to baby in a matter of months. His head is probably spinning at how real everything has become -- esp with the baby now. Even if he wants privacy, doesn't want to be featured on the show or in People, I am betting he doesn't know how to tell Jill and JB as he thinks it'll cause a firestorm. As for why he wanted to be with her, I'm still scratching my head. She's a pretty girl, but there are many others out there. A college educated conservative Christian with mission experience with a professional career who is also handsome would be a fantastic catch. Instead he seeks out JB and ends up courting his daughter?? I have to imagine he had seen their show and/or knew of the Duggar lifestyle and found it attractive in some way. Maybe it is the focus on big family -- sometimes people from smaller families do feel like their lives are "lonelier." Maybe it's something else. But it never added up for me that a professional man who has had girlfriends and freedom would WANT to adhere to JB's courting rules. There are many who end up marrying into a family that's fairly restrictive etc. but in this case it's not like he was marrying his HS or college sweetheart -- in that case it would have made sense because he would be saying to the world 'I know her family is nuts but I'm willing to deal because I have loved her for 5 yrs." He signed up for craziness for a girl with whom he had a few Skype calls, no alone dates, and no physical contact other than hand holding.

How come these kids never pursue anything with parental involvement? I agree that neither set of parents should encourage a courtship -- esp the Duggars -- their kids have so few friends that they don't need a situation where the boys aren't hanging out/speaking because Lawson took a piece of Jinger's heart but didn't marry her. Nor does there need to be lifelong resentment if they were to end up in a situation where one family knew the courtship was a bad idea but felt pushed into engagement and marriage because the other side pressured (kind of like Ben's family) and they didn't want to offend lifelong friends. However, these kids see each other reasonably regularly -- at least 2-3 times a yr it seems. If two of them liked each other, started talking, texting etc. -- wouldn't that could as a de facto courtship where the two could decide whether this was for them or not? Then they could go to their parents saying -- we have decided to marry, let us get engaged. I know texts etc. are monitored but I was under the impression that was only when you are in an official "get to know you" or courtship period. I don't imagine every text coming into that home from any friend goes to Mom and Dad's phone too. Normal teenagers sneak around all the time. It wouldn't be so hard for say Joseph to be texting Tori or Carlin and frankly he's out of the house (it seems) for construction jobs and to workout in his garage gym -- he could even be calling them on the sly without his entire family knowing that he was talking to a girl.

I'm not sure if the Bates like the Duggars that much -- despite all their proclamations of friendship. Though who knows. I think Joseph seems like one of the less "harmful" ones -- I don't see him turning into Josh who wants to be a politician or a Jill/Derick who want a tv/People magazine empire because he doesn't seem that outgoing. I see him being more like a JD or Chad Paine -- working hard at a construction job and perfectly content with his fundie life, his 6 kids, and not questioning the world in any way. From a profession or providing standpoint, I think the Bates would be ok with him as a son in law. He will likely make a living in construction or in the trades and they have been ok with other sons in law doing that -- Chad works at a metals company; John is in the air conditioning business with his brothers. It's an honest living from the sweat of your brow where you likely work for other conservative Christians (just given the location) and have zero chance of having female bosses or co-workers.

The difference is that the Bates kids all seem to pursue their interests when they become of age. I'm not suggesting they get to pursue a dream interest -- like being a doctor or something -- bc they are also under-educated, but at least they get off the compound and go work for city gov't if they want to. I think Jana, Joy Anna, Josiah, and Jinger seem unhappy. I think JD is fine -- he has his own life -- a towing business, a constable gig, and is able to fly a plane some; all of that at least allows him out of the house and allows some interaction with the rest of society. As for Joseph -- he seems to be content for now just lazying around the house, working out, and doing some odd jobs for JB or JD. He doesn't seem particularly ambitious. I'm sure he'll set up a business or start working for John David full time when it is time to court and support a family, but he doesn't strike me as someone who wants a different way of life. Jana's frustration at being the mom of the 16 kids at home is palpable despite her "keeping sweet" demeanor. We don't see enough of her spunk or attitude to know what she really wants, but it's clear that she doesn't want what she has. It's possible that she doesn't want for college or a profession -- she may be happy being a wife and stay home mom to 2-5 kids of her own, but I get the sense she DOES want friends. She'd be a much happier person if she could have girlfriends to relate to, joke around with etc -- people who weren't putting her down for her marital status like Anna. I feel like being around strong women would bring her out of her shell some and just allow her to experience some joy. Joy Anna, Josiah, and Jinger all want a totally different type of life. Josiah has said he wants to study accounting; I can see him wanting a job like Derick's and that isn't going to happen if he's studying accounting online. He seems defeated because he probably knows that the closest he'll get to that role is being a book keeper for whatever businesses JB sets up for Josh, Ben, Joseph, and whatever other sons-in-law come along needing employment. That's a far cry from a 4 yr college and a corporate office for a Fortune 500. Jinger and Joy Anna just seem like they never bought into the whole fundie goal for women -- marry young and raise as many babies as possible. I don't know what they want, but they both seem like the types who'd want to go away to college -- experience having roommates, having debates with classmates, etc. I can see both of them in a big city (not necessarily NYC big but medium cities like Dallas or Atlanta) as 20-somethings trying to make it in their chosen professions. For those who say -- they're over 18, it's their own fault for not doing it. They have no money of their own. They have no support outside the compound because they are so isolated. And they are really under-educated. Even if one of them decided -- I'm going away to a 4 yr college on my own, the reality is JB and Michelle wouldn't pay so they'd need merit scholarships. I shudder to think of what their SAT scores would look like. I also think they'd have NO idea where to begin -- applications, essays, financial aid etc. and because they are so isolated, it's not like they have non-fundie peers who could guide them through the process. Now they do have Derick, but the reality is that Jill is very firmly entrenched in the fundie world and I'm sure would strongly discourage her husband from putting ideas in her siblings' heads about -- hey I know this school in Chicago isn't top ranked but they give a ton of merit scholarships and you could get a 4 yr degree while living in a big city.

Just read the People article. Nothing in there that you wouldn't expect. The only thing that stuck out -- Derick says that they still want to live abroad and do mission work and are working to make that happen; he thinks they'll leave in anywhere from 2-5 years. He also says that it's hard for kids to adjust to a new culture, but they will likely homeschool. Nice to see that he has completely bought into the Duggar way of thinking. I would be surprised if he himself was homeschooled and then ended up going to a huge university -- it's possible but unlikely. I'm not sure why he doesn't want his kid to have the advantages he had. And if they're planning on going 2-5 yrs from now and they keep living in the state of "we're not trying for a baby but not preventing" -- they will likely have 2-3 kids. How easy or realistic is it to go live overseas in harsh conditions with a family? I know one of Anna's sisters is doing it, but do Jill and Derick really want to live like that?

I don't think it's that big of a deal to tell your family early -- lots of people tell their parents and siblings, it's just that she happens to have 18 siblings. It's telling the world that I don't understand. Are the pictures on Hairspray/Pickles from People or elsewhere? Even if she is 2-3 months along, who does a maternity photoshoot then holding tiny shoes? I imagine People "suggested" it? I feel like people wait until the 3rd tri when they are really about to have the kid or maybe 2nd tri when they are showing but still feeling well enough to want to do those kinds of things.

The Bates have the same world views as the Duggars, but they are a different type of family -- more "normal" (for their world), more loving, and just more "real," for lack of better words. You see it in how the Bates kids interact -- teasing about crushes etc. the way all brothers and sisters do. You see it in how the Bates parents act. They seem to know each kid, as opposed to the Duggar who view every kid as number 12 or number 17. Gil jokes around with the kids like normal dads do. When Erin's wedding was shown, he was imitating/mocking Erin who had been crying to her parents about leaving home and not having her sisters around; when Gil said -- well you can come back and stay here whenever you want, he mocked her "but it won't be the saaaammme" crying reaction. Very endearing. Same way he was lamenting about feeling like an empty nester because Alyssa is so far away on the Nightline special. It doesn't seem to be stuff that Gil and Kelly say for the camera, it just seems to be how they interact with the kids. And you see Kelly actually cooking, teaching the kids etc. At all 3 weddings so far, Gil had a sleepy/tired toddler glued to his shoulder like all parents have experienced; I feel like if it was the Duggars, they'd hand the child off to a sister so as to be able to get good photo ops of themselves. I just think Gil and Kelly act more real and honest; Kelly may like the attention of having 19 kids, but has said that as she's gotten older, she relies on an epidural to give birth. I'm sure Michelle would never do that and would never want to admit that she needed "help" -- delivering blessings is what she does and she wouldn't admit any "weakness" in her ability to do so. I also think there is some encouragement for the Bates kids to be individuals within their limited beliefs. They have kids who have been county commissioner, worked for a florist, taken college classes, taught music lessons, worked as paid nannies for other families, and worked on music projects. It seems like the kids have some friends beyond their siblings; one of the teens (maybe Alyssa?) had a birthday party and the guests were mostly other teens -- as Gil was saying they always end up staying too late and playing too much music when teens get together. I'm sure they believe in gender roles but it seems to be less strict than the Duggars. I think Alyssa is the one that likes hunting, and for one of her birthdays she went hunting with her dad. I don't know if JB would think it was ok to take Joy Anna hunting as it's too tom-boyish and un lady-like. I feel like if Joy Anna asked for that as a birthday activity, they'd set up a nice tea party or make-over day instead, not considering that that child has zero interest in those things. The Duggars have a more restricted "girls should like this" and "boys should like that" view -- maybe because they don't know their kids as well and just try to fill in those blanks along boy vs. girl lines.

The reality is that Jill probably remembers the last 10 yrs of her life better than the prior decade. In the last 10 yrs with Michelle in her late 30s-40s, she and the older girls were aware of their mother constantly trying/charting etc. She likely doesn't remember back to when her mother was in her 20s and pregnancies probably just happened with little effort. It's possible that Jill is comparing her 23 yr old self to her 40-something yr old mother thinking -- yeah I know you're more fertile when you're young, but I didn't think it would be THIS fast -- mom and dad try for months for every blessing. I don't agree that she and Derick are all that shocked. Maybe they weren't expecting it now -- but I think this is a few months faster than they expected/wanted, not years faster. Wasn't it said somewhere (maybe here) that she had already taken 2 pregnancy tests by the time she took the positive one. 3 pregnancy tests in 30 days of marriage is not someone who can be all that "shocked" by pregnancy.

Honestly if I were Jana, I'd be spending a lot of time with Amy and her mom (and also with grandma) right about now. Amy is always dating and can possibly introduce Jana to normal Christian men. Even if she can't or Jana is unsure about going behind her parents' back like that, I think that Amy and her mom are more normal in their religious/societal views, so that they won't be giving Jana the constant -- poor you, you're 24 and unmarried look that I suspect she is likely getting from Jessa and maybe even from Jill. Amy is about 25 and happily playing the field, and Amy's mom married later on; they both seem to get that there is more to life than marrying as young as possible and having as many babies as possible. And I feel like JB and Michelle may not be able to say no to Jana wanting to hang with her cousin and aunt -- after all they are family and are local, so it's not like she's asking to go visit a long lost friend in Hawaii.

I feel bad for Jana in that she is stuck in a culture where a woman's worth comes from courting, being married, and having kids. So I'm sure she is getting "poor you" vibes from Erin and Alyssa Bates and likely from her own sisters and sister in law as well. That must be terrible, especially in a culture where she can't really talk back to them in any way to tell them to shut up. However, I don't by any means think it won't happen for Jana. And in the long run, it means that Jana will likely have fewer kids than any of the ones who married in their early 20s; if they were to announce a courtship today, I think she'd be around 25 by the time she married and had a kid -- that cuts off the fertile years in the early 20s, which has got to be a good thing given how much child raising she's already done. More over, I think with every 6 months or yr that goes by for her, she is more and more likely to end up with someone who is conservative Christian rather than fundie. The "umarriable" age for fundies seems to be really early -- it's a bit later for conservative Christians like Derick as many of them do go to college. I think if a fundie match doesn't pop up for Jana soon enough and she gets a conservative Christian suitor, JB will likely say yes -- given that Jana is getting "older" and they may not feel comfortable waiting too much longer.

Does Derick always look like he hasn't slept or is majorly stressed? He had huge bags under his eyes at the wedding and the same in this photo. At the wedding -- ok -- wedding stress/jitters plus his mom was very ill, so he probably wasn't sleeping and looked like he had been crying. Now -- this is a happy time and his mom is doing much much better. Is that just his look?

I'm more grossed out that JB is commenting on how they made an announcement 30 days after marriage. We all know it's a honeymoon -- or just got home from our honeymoon last night -- baby. Does dad really need to be thinking about and commenting on the exact day that conception occurred?? They act SO modest, but when sex is on the table -- it's ok for Dad to be commenting and the other kids to be clapping and cheering. I'm sure most couples would be mortified if their parents knew the exact date/time/place that sex occurred; ok so with honeymoon babies it isn't rocket science, but still no one wants their parents/in-laws to comment on it. I wonder what Derick's mom is thinking. I'm sure she'll be happy to have her first grandchild, but I do wonder if she thinks this is way too quick.

Maybe I'm the only one but I don't think she's truly showing. I think she may be gaining weight esp since she's so thin, but it's the kind of thing where it can easily be covered up if she wore the right attire; instead she and Derick are accentuating it with their poses, her clothing etc. I think most women gain weight and go through that awkward stage at work where it's too soon to tell but they're a bit bigger -- they don't take out an announcement, they hide it with clothing until they're ready to tell. They could have hidden it a bit longer. And as for being on the road -- if they thought they'd start getting random questions, they could have avoided the latest press tour -- just don't go and say that Derick doesn't have the time off and Jill doesn't want to be away from her husband.

There's something mind blowing about going from hugging a guy for the first time to carrying his child a few days/weeks later. Not to be gross -- but do fundies believe in having sex during pregnancy? I know in lots of conservative cultures, it isn't done -- not necessarily due to religious beliefs as much as the conservative views re sex. Even if it is allowable, I can't imagine the woman being all that comfortable with sex while pregnant. Given that they've waited their whole lives to get physical, you would think they'd want to enjoy that aspect of the relationship for a while before jumping into the -- pregnant, healing from delivery, now we're trying so we can finally have sex, pregnant again -- abstaining again cycle.

I'd like to think Jana and Anna are friends and maybe they are because they're the same age group, but Anna definitely has a bit of an attitude because she's married with 3 kids. She made that comment re Jana eating while holding one of HER kids and also in the same visit talked about how they need to get Jana married off. I can't imagine any single woman feeling good about someone who talks down to them simply because they haven't married and popped out babies. It probably is a break from Jana's day to day -- much easier to help Anna with 3 kids than to have primary responsibility of so many more at the Duggars' and when she's in DC, I do think they are out and about doing more things so it's probably just a change of scenery from Arkansas.

He does love his kids, especially his daughters. I'm not sure what his views are on the boys -- he may feel the boys need to "toughen up" or figure it out on their own, but it's his job to protect his girls.

Pretty sure she has no choice but to live with a small, simple diamond whether it makes her happy or not. He's 19 and working odd jobs; I'm guessing he had saved up a few hundred which can buy you a modest ring at a department store jewelry counter. Nor is he rolling in family money -- if his parents helped, chances are she still got a modest ring from a department store though maybe costing a few hundred dollars more than what Ben alone could afford. She may act like a princess, but unless she's totally dumb, I'm guessing she -- and most other fundie girls -- understand that they are marrying men of modest means. I feel like even girls like Erin or Alyssa Bates who seemed to have a lot of expectation re romantic proposals, probably expected over the top gestures but not necessarily a huge diamond. It helps that most of these girls aren't totally immersed in pop culture. I'm sure they've seen nice rings before, but they probably aren't aware of the bling that women like JLo wear.

I think I liked JD better when he was portrayed as the strong silent type -- the hard worker who was in the background -- kind of like Joseph is now. Having actually seen him on camera -- SO excited about trashing Chad's car or SO proud that he's kept the guys away from his twin or just running around the house with his brothers like some kind of pre-teen -- you see what a doofus he is. He doesn't come across like a man but more like a big child, but then he has a pudgy middle aged man look on top of that. I know fundie men are uneducated and under-exposed to the world, but from what little we've seen of Chad and John Webster and just from pics of Brandon -- they don't seem like that. I'm guessing the kind of girl/girl's family that thinks JD is a catch is similar to Anna's family thinking Josh was a huge catch.