cereality

I really do wonder if JB and Michelle are thinking that Josh and Anna are straying too far from the family ideals. No matter what they say about how every family is different -- every one of their kids is supposed to try for babies at all times, at least until there are 7-8. To hear Anna say very directly -- a 4th will probably come along but we don't need to be pregnant at all times to feel validated and first we want to enjoy the 3 we already have -- was pretty much a slap in the face to JB and Michelle. Just validates what many of us have been saying on this board -- now that Josh and Anna have gotten away from his parents and are maybe looking at life as a whole, they have decided they don't want or need a litter. I think they'll still have another one or two, but honestly I wouldn't be shocked if they stayed at 3. Josh has said from the start "we want as many as God blesses us with" with the caveat of "if it's only 2-3 that's fine." I really think they want to be able to enjoy a life on their own without full dependence on JB -- it would be much harder for them to stay in DC if they had to raise 10 kids of Josh's salary, whereas 3-4 are manageable. They are drilling into Mac's head that babies are for married couples only. Even Josh did the "oh Derick and Jill are having a baby, when" to "test" her and then Anna responded "after they are married." Honestly while it's a dumb gift, I don't see them being wrong about telling their young kids that the order is marriage then baby. Lots of non-fundies who fully intend to talk to their kids about birth control later do that at age 5 -- it's just easier to impart your "morals" in a simple way and then add complex stuff later if you choose. As snarky and critical as Josh usually is, he had NOTHING to say about Derick that was at all critical or questionable. All he could say is that "he gets stuff done" (probably referring to college and the job) but also has a softer side (probably referring to his being religious and having done a mission) and him and Jill are made for each other. Very atypical for Josh, but I honestly think the Duggar men are a bit "in awe of" or "scared of" Derick. They've drilled it into their kid's heads -- no you can't go to college or even high school but the world is full of purple haired heathens who will pull you away from the Lord and your family. Now here comes a brother in law who went to high school, college, and has a corporate job and is just as Christian as they are -- and has even taken a yr or 2 of his life to serve others -- whereas the Duggars use their religion as an "excuse" to avoid school, to avoid jobs because you may have to work with non-Christians or women, and to talk about serving others while doing a day here or a week there with the cameras rolling. I wonder if Josh looks at Derick and thinks -- wow I could have had that if my parents had only let me stay in high school and go to college??

I'm shocked that Joy Anna is so much more blunt than the other older girls, and doesn't "fear" repercussion/re-training etc. I wouldn't think a fundie girl would say that marriage is too much work, there are so many guys who are duds, and then when you find one you have to spend SO much time talking to them. She honestly sounds like any number of normal teens I know who don't date because it is so much "work" -- i.e. finding the right guy and then constantly having to talk/text/go out even if you aren't in the mood. I'm shocked that JB is ok with her going on camera and saying this -- won't it scare off the fundie suitors. Jana seemed honest when she said that she'll hopefully be ready when the right guy comes along but she's ok waiting. It honestly doesn't seem like she is "desperate" to start a courtship the way so many fundie girls are. In the next episode she did seem "resentful" in her "keeping sweet" Jana way, when she was frantically sewing dress after dress while everyone else was sitting there eating tea and cupcakes. She actually said -- I don't know why I was asked to do it, I'm not the only one who can sew and then she pointed out that Jessa, Jill and her mom are good seamstresses too. I can see Jill not doing it -- that's why she has bridesmaids. And in that family it's no surprise that Jana and Michelle weren't going to step up when Jana could just slave away.

I think it's obviously harder to have memories with and about each child the more you have. However, Kelly and Gil seem to manage it. Yeah they also say things like "Michaela has a servants heart," but they are also able to point out which of their girls is into hunting, who is super organized, who was a particularly energetic child -- and those factoids are not the same for every kid. With JB and Michelle all we hear is that every kid is a blessing and every kid has a servant's heart. No cute little anecdotes about how this kid always preferred Jill or Jana when they were little (though maybe that makes the parents look bad) or who was a tomboy or who was always the first picked for the broomball team or whatever. It's kind of my impression of how kids were raised back in the day. Not to malign parenting from 40-50 yrs ago, but I always had the sense from my aunts and uncles that there were lots of kids in each family and they were all raised together as "the kids" -- it was assumed everyone was the same, had the same interests etc -- and good parenting was providing 3 meals a day, a home, some clothing, and relatively "stability." Now the pendulum has probably swung way too far as parents are doting on their college aged kids and every kid is a special snowflake, but there has got to be a happy medium.

Who upgrades a ring merely weeks (or months) after a proposal?? Even if you're unhappy with it, isn't it one of those things where you say to your fiancé -- I absolutely love it, I wouldn't even WANT a different or bigger ring if we could afford it? I know many who have bought a small rock because it was all they could afford at the time with the thought that they'd upgrade it when they could -- meaning 5 yrs or 15 yrs down the road, not weeks down the road because of negative publicity or a disappointed fiancé or a product promotion from a jeweler. If I were Ben my feelings would be kind of hurt right now -- even if a jeweler came begging, I'd expect my fiancé to say -- sorry I want the ring my fiancé picked out and nothing else. I know my cousin's then fiancé said something jokingly about upgrading the ring while they were still engaged and he snapped back "go right ahead, you're your dad's responsibility right now so get whatever he'll pay for"; rude response but it hurt his feelings that his fiancé was implying that his ring wasn't good enough (but she was a mature enough person to tell him she'd never do that and drop the subject). Hell if a jeweler is desperate to give you jewelry and you really want free stuff at this point in your relationship, isn't it easiest to say "you know what -- thank you for your offer for an engagement ring, but we don't want it; how about this -- how about you comp us for the wedding bands because we haven't made that purchase yet and would be happy to have your product on our hands for life and you get a nice little shot on TLC." I'm thinking more and more than Jessa is in this for all the wrong reasons -- the glamour of engagement, wedding, and free stuff will wear off and then what's she left with -- a room in a warehouse with a guy who is more crazy about her than she is about him (it seems) and within 9 months, the baby train starts . . . .

So it looks like it's official that they are staying on the compound for a while -- as they're telling people they'll be in NW Arkansas for a few yrs and then open to wherever God takes them. I think they're saying the property management and midwifery stuff because along with the "OMG you're so young, I can't believe you're getting married" question from media etc., I bet the follow up is "how will you support yourselves?" Most reasonable people want their kids to have some means of support before taking a spouse and when the groom is 19 -- the natural question is 'uh you haven't done college or trade school yet, what are you going to do for money." Jessa certainly cannot be a midwife. There is some science education there, and I'm positive Jill struggled with it given her lack of even a normal HS education. However she struggled through it because she was intent on becoming a midwife (until she met a man). Jessa -- I don't see her struggling through something she doesn't even want. Not to mention -- her lack of people skills won't help when she's in the birthing rooms. Laboring women cannot just hurry up because their princess of a midwife is annoyed that they're not done yet. And Jessa should know better than anyone bc of her mother -- laboring women cry, scream, need help w bathroom issues and sometimes just need reassurance; I don't see Jessa doing any of that. Is it even true that they get to have private conversations as Jessa says?? Doesn't seem like it -- looks like chaperones are right there at all times. The Bates' method is a bit different -- they've even said that chaperones may go to dinner with the couple but won't sit at the same table, so there is a chance to talk. And around the house, Kelly Bates has said there are chaperones because people are in and out of the room where the couple is hanging out (which is natural in such a big family -- you can't exactly give up use of the family room bc Chad is visiting for an afternoon) but no one is sitting with the couple. That's not what we've seen in the Duggar home. And last point -- I'm not Christian but am in one of the major religions that bears a lot of similarity to Christianity. Isn't it true that you pray for God's support/guidance/help, but you have to act on our own. Meaning if you want a job or a move or whatever -- you pray but you also send out resumes or hire movers or whatever? Isn't that the whole "God helps those who help themselves" thing? I don't get the Duggars' views of -- we'll go wherever God moves us -- bc if you're waiting for God without pursuing opportunities any place else, you may not go any place besides NW Arkansas.

How pregnant is Jill? I'm glad she and Derick are doing stuff together and frankly still getting to know each other -- even though they're married w a baby on the way. But hasn't camping got to be uncomfortable for a pregnant woman? You'd think you'd have enough aches and pains to want to sleep in a bed -- even if the pregnancy has been easy -- and may also need to be near a bathroom if you have to go often. I hope this is something she wanted to do, instead of Derick suggesting it and her feeling like -- my husband wants to camp, I guess I have to suck it up and camp. Derick doesn't seem like the type who'd force her -- he could just be a clueless young husband -- but I could see her agreeing to anything he says because she doesn't want to "disappoint" him and that's her job as a wife -- to defer to him.

That's because you have work, friends, hobbies etc. These Gothard women don't necessarily have that and when a husband comes around they convince themselves they don't need that stuff like all the heathens -- all they need is to be with their husband 24-7 and produce a baby asap.

Also didn't Tori's diamond look huge -- center stone as well as surrounding? I'm assuming the ring was comped or Matt and Amy chipped in? I don't imagine Indoor Goals pays that much and who knows how he is compensated for the various farm projects and for the TV show. Regardless I like the two of them more than Jeremy and Audrey -- they're just more likeable and down to earth. I also wonder why Audrey said "maybe not" to his parents visiting and followed up with "we can visit them." I'm guessing she already understands they bring a lot of drama, which may be a bit much to handle in a 1-2 bedroom apartment. When they visit on the farm, I'm sure they hang out together as a family but then it seems like they're out and about all over the farm; even in that scene, she and Jeremy were having breakfast by themselves outside at a table that seemed pretty far from the house -- i.e. not right on the deck outside the kitchen.

Off topic but what does Dan do for a living? Usually "the Honorable" is a title for judges. I doubt he's a judge if he's the same Dan Dillard in Rogers Arkansas who on LinkedIn is listed as a 2013 college grad in public relations.

He may not have the type of commute you'd see in LA or NYC, but I imagine it still takes him 5-10 min to get from his desk through their huge parking lot and probably another 10 min to drive home. That's an extra 30-40 min a day that Jill is without her sweetie. She also hasn't been around anyone with a professional job. She may not understand that a 5:30 quitting time in a corporate job is not invariable as it would be in say retail or construction when you must clock out as your employer doesn't want you on overtime. I'm sure most of us have experienced -- esp in our younger days when our bosses knew that we didn't need to get to daycare before closing time -- that at 5:25 is exactly when the phone rings with some manager wanting to talk about some project for the next day/week and that call ends up taking 20 min. Hopefully Jill realizes that you can't say -- sorry Bob it's my quittin' time and hang up, if you have any interest in retaining your job and moving up the professional ranks. I mean I should hope Jill gets it at some level -- she's around midwives and those folks have the strangest hours because they aren't leaving until the baby is born, even if it takes all night. But with her 6th grade maturity, I could see her being the type saying "wait -- you said your hours were 9-5, how come you didn't leave until 5:45. I can't believe they made you stay and you don't even get overtime?! See this is why it's better to work for my Daddy -- family comes first."

I didn't get the sense it was a long trip. It seems like it took a while to drive there as it was dark by the time they arrived, though they seemed to have smores that night. The activities they did were a few hours max. I can see driving on Friday after Derick is done work, hanging out rocking climbing, zip lining etc. on Saturday and heading back Saturday night or Sunday with plenty of time for Derick to be at work. I'll second that -- I hope Derick stays with Walmart for a long while. I read an interview that he gave in college that said it was his "dream job" to work for Walmart or another Fortune 500, so I hope he sticks with that. Though I don't know. Even now Jill was making comments about how they are apart "too much" because he's at work -- likely because she's only around males who come and go as they please, so she doesn't get the concept of an 8 hr day with a commute. Josh will likely head back to Arkansas eventually -- with both him and JD having businesses and perhaps an eventual business for Joseph, Josiah, and another brother in law or two -- I really think JB and Jill will try to convince Derick to come on board as a Chief Accounting Officer or CFO for a family holding company. Time will tell what he does. He seems "worldy" enough to realize he probably doesn't want to be beholden to that family. And also to realize that things like good health insurance and 401ks are important, so hopefully he sticks with having his own job. Though I can see him being lured -- a family business means he can come and go, not so much about his work day but I could see him getting interested if it means he and Jill can take off on a 2 month or 2 yr mission here or there -- that's something that's very hard to do when working for a private employer.

I don't think Derick is Einstein either. I mean he's an accounting major from a medium ranked university with an entry level corporate job --nothing wrong with any of that as that is what most people are, but we're not talking MIT educated rocket scientist here. But he seems like Einstein when you compare him to the likes of Josh and JD. There has been lots of talk about why Derick -- a Christian, college educated man with a corporate job -- would want Jill, a teen girl whose daddy makes you jump through hoops to get with her and even then you can only court for a few months and can never speak or go out on dates alone. He doesn't strike me as a fame whore type, but I do think he's either shy, inexperienced with women, or has faced some tough rejection. I almost think it was "comforting" to him to go through a process that is basically along the lines of "if your daddy likes me and approves of me, you pretty much have to marry me or else he'll be pissed with you, may not look for other courting partners for you and you'll be unmarried for who knows how long." On paper he has everything a parent would want, he knew that and knew he could get "approved" and then it was just about making enough small talk with Jill on Skype and chaperoned dates that she would fall for him. She and her sisters have the maturity and experience of 6th graders with their first "boyfriends," so they would have fallen for anything that's male, has a heartbeat, talks to her, and is Daddy approved -- see Exhibit A, Ben. I'm not surprised that Cathy and Derick's brother have agreed to appear on the show. They seem like a small, tight family. Derick's brother doesn't seem to like the Duggars and make think his brother is nuts for jumping into this circus. Cathy is older and wiser and probably realizes already that a family like the Duggars -- which requires all 22 members to show up to meet Derick at the airport -- will easily push her family aside and occupy his time as they always have something going on and are just generally domineering. She likely doesn't want that to happen, so she is staying involved with what is important to her son and asking his bro to do the same -- right now it is the TV show; if he asks them to be on, they'll be on because they don't later want to feel like "well Derick barely comes over once every 2 months bc he's always with Jill's family on that TV show -- I guess we should have offered to be on once in a while so we'd see him." In a few months, his baby will be important to him and I imagine Cathy and Derick's brother will be involved there as well -- the kid will mostly be a Duggar as I'm sure JB and crew will barge in 15 min after Jill gives birth, but I'm sure Cathy wants the child to have some closeness with the Dillard side as well. Honestly I feel like it would be very easy for Cathy to "win over" Jill once she's feeling better. Poor girl has had no maternal attention growing up. I think small things like -- lets go shopping or paint our nails or do you need help with that decorating project for your house -- could really bond the two, as it would give them something to do, while chatting and allowing Jill to learn more about Cathy, Derick, Derick's dad etc. It's not like she knows everything about Derick -- she went from first date to marriage in a matter of months; she'd probably love to hear stories about him in high school or how he was with his dad or whatever.

I think the Duggars do believe that boys should hang with boys and girls with girls. I think it's ok for them to all play together when they're little, but after a certain age, they steer them over to their brothers or sisters. No idea if JD and Jana were ever close, but I think Joy and Josiah were close and I feel like I recall JB saying something about how it was a shame that they couldn't hang out. I can see Joy and Josiah having stuff in common because they both seem smart and sarcastic; but Joy was steered over to her older sisters and I'm not sure who Josiah hangs out with -- probably Joseph. It seems like Joy Anna and Jana have gotten closer. In their THs, I get the impression that there is some relationship there as they sometimes play off of each other. It's possible that they may both be thinking they'll be stuck for a while on the compound -- misery loves company.

JB and JD actually acted better to Ben and Derick than I expected. Maybe it's because Ben and Derick did fine with the whole trip, so there was nothing to mock. They both did seem a bit irritated -- rightfully so -- and Derick said at one point it was like pre-marriage bootcamp and they both said they were being tested/watched. I'm honestly glad that JD was the butt of his father's jokes for once. I say that as a single person who hates being talked about for being single, but honestly the whole 'we Duggars are better than the rest of the world' attitude is annoying to watch. While I agree with you that JD is no prize and has that -- I sit in the basement playing video games and eating Doritos for hours on end -- vibe, there are fundie dads out there who are salivating at the prospect of submitting their daughter's application to JB in hopes that they can marry into Duggar royalty. After all isn't that what Anna's dad saw in Josh? I will say Josh was better looking when he married than JD is, but not by the whole lot and I think Josh's attitude was about the same as JD's. JD seems like he has nothing going for him, so now he can sit home and take pleasure in being the oldest brother in town who can push his brothers in law around. What's up with Ben's beard? I realize facial hair is in right now, but he needs to trim that thing and make it more like a shadow than a full beard. And it seems like he's doing it to copy Derick. I feel bad for Ben in this whole situation -- as much as I don't necessarily like him. He's having to continuously "prove" himself to the Duggars in ways that no one should. He said he was scared of heights and yet still had to climb and jump off the cliff. He honestly doesn't seem like an outdoorsy or a manual labor kind of guy, and I'm convinced he's a bit of a germophobe. He said he used to be a germophobe when he was younger (when he was made to clean toilets) and this time he said he wanted to stick the metal fork in the fire to sanitize it before using it for his food. Nothing wrong with any of that -- maybe he is more meant to work in an office, rather than out on the property; maybe he's supposed to be vacationing at the beach rather than camping. If these are someone's natural preferences, I don't see why it's so important to change them to fit the Duggars' life. And if he is a germophobe, I'd advice him not to look around the Duggars' home so hard as he may be grossed out by people walking on counters where his food is being prepped.

I don't get the sense that Ben grew up with the same courting rules -- at least not from his father's blog. His father's blog (passively-aggressively) suggests that JB is protecting his daughters way way too much from heartbreak and making Ben jump through too many hoops (probably like gross bathroom cleaning), rather than just letting the couple get to know each other and deciding whether it's the right match or moving on. He specifically said that over zealous fathers are preventing couples from getting to know each other casually and not giving couples the room to have "healthy relationships." That makes me think that while the Seewalds raised their kids to wait until marriage, that maybe they aren't so draconian about whether they can hold hands or hug or kiss or even talk or have dinner alone. I think even they may have been shocked by how absurd the Duggars' rules are, if there were expecting normal conservative Christian behavior. I feel like the Seewalds have also said something about realizing that relationships/courtships will look different for each of their kids. I think they jumped into the Duggar pool bc they are a bunch of fame-whores and they thought that if their son got in with a Duggar girl, he'd be "set," as JB is well connected and could probably get their son out on book tours, political rallies, and then maybe a job in DC like Josh. Not bad for a kid with no higher education. I think they didn't realize that JB only does what JB wants, so if you latch onto him to get a girl and a job -- you will get the girl when he's damn well ready and you will get whatever job he wants to give you -- even if that's cleaning toilets -- and you had better not complain, lest you lose the chance with the girl.

4. He's been shot down by girls before for whatever reason or for no reason, so going down the "if your parents approve of me, you pretty much have to marry me" road was appealing. From a parent's perspective, he's a great catch -- educated, professional job, religious, missionary etc. Maybe he didn't want to go through the "hassle" of dating for real where you can often get turned down because she's a movie buff and you're not or she thinks you're not witty or whatever. 5. He got in so deep so far that he didn't know how to get out. Personally I think there is some element of this. He wanted to meet a girl --he met her via Skype. She and her family started acting like they were 3 seconds from engagement, flew to Nepal etc. At that point, he liked her, wanted to know her more so he wasn't going to reject her. But then he gets back from Nepal, wants to date for a while, only to get the sense from her parents that if he wants to keep seeing her, he better put a ring on it. He still likes her, so he does that but it's way faster than he likely wanted. Then it's quick from engagement to marriage because they want to get it on. And now before you know it -- he has gone from a Skype conversation to a baby on the way in about 1 yr.

I don't think the Bates kids have been raised to "fear" their parents like the Duggars. With the Duggars, it's all about falling in line with the family so that you don't somehow jeopardize the TLC ship. With the Bates -- their kids can live how they want. I'm sure they will have kids who get pregnant right after they marry and have a kid every yr or two until they can't. I'm sure they'll also have kids who choose to be child free or have 1-2 max. Somehow I think Gil and Kelly will be ok with all of that and will not be lecturing a couple with an only child about how Godless they are. Alyssa said on Nightline that she couldn't see herself handling 10 kids -- a very honest assessment that a Duggar would not feel comfortable stating; she said she could see 6-8 max. Her husband is one of 6 kids; some of his siblings are older and married and all seem to have between 1-3 kids. So while he's from a big family, he may not want a dozen kids of his own. Chad and Erin -- I'm sure they suffered a lot with their miscarriage, and it's possible that they didn't try again right away. They may just be taking the time to recover from that, support each other, have fun together, and then have a child when they can -- even if that means they're waiting a yr or more. These are concepts that seem lost on the Duggars.

The Bates believe the same stuff as the Duggars but are more "watchable" bc they live their lives differently. They have allowed their kids -- esp the older ones -- to carve out lives within their beliefs; seems like each of the older ones is attending college or working full or part time. The colleges and professions may not be the full spectrum of what's available in the real world -- but it is better than being a 24 yr old sitting around in the Duggar home doing nothing. I think they have a lot to show right now -- Chad/Erin and Zach/Whitney are nearby living their own lives, Michaela is courting, there are others running small businesses or going to school etc; I suspect they'll feature a visit to Alyssa and John in FL. I don't feel like they'd have to "create" a lot of trips and activities -- i.e. soap box derby cars -- in order to have something to film.

Maybe I'm over thinking, but I always thought the car pranks were about "blocking" the couple a bit and delaying sex. Normal streamers on a bumper w a just married sign are cute. The car can be driven like that for hours or days until the couple gets sick of it, tears the stuff off the bumper and that's that; or if they're going to the airport to head out for a honeymoon, you can frankly even return the car that way and no rental agent is going to charge a newly married couple because they "damaged" the car by leaving streamers on the back. With things like sardines or moth balls or saran wrap covering the doors -- which is what they did to Chad's RENTAL -- that needs to be remedied immediately bc (i) you can't be driving along in a car w the stench and (ii) it'll ruin the car if the oil gets on the seats etc and the rental agency will charge in the hundreds for that. To me it seems like the repressed (in JD's case) fundie man's way of saying -- ha ha, you got the girl but don't think you'll be kissing in 15 min bc it'll take you a half hr to clean up this mess first to make the car driveable. I agree Derick would have lost his $hit right there. I know everyone says Ben has a temper, but I don't know -- I feel like Derick is the one who'd have a temper if pushed too far; no saying he'd do anything mean or over the top to Jill, but I feel like he's seen how normal people live and behave, he's gone along and "kept sweet" w the Duggar ways to get the girl, you can tell he/his mom/his bro think things like courting or group texts or chaperoned dates are stupid -- even Derick couldn't stop commenting about the chaperone on that picnic date. Eventually they'll get to an issue where he will just lose his mind if he has to hear about the Duggar/fundie way of doing things.

I bet the other kids didn't mess with Derick day to day while he was courting because they couldn't. If Joseph or JD had sat there and told him to load the Duggar bus, I could see him just saying no, them being shocked and getting up themselves and doing it. I'm sure these kinds of things happened once or twice and the other kids got that he wasn't "one of them" -- he was an "outsider" that they couldn't interact with the way they do their own fundie peers. And if they reported that back to JB -- i.e. I'm not sure if Derick will be a good husband, look he refused to load our bus and that shows he doesn't work hard -- then I bet JB told them to lay off. In his heart of hearts JB has known all along that this was a good match for Jill and marrying Derick would assure that she'll always be at least middle class and not have to struggle like many fundie brides do -- he didn't want anything to drive Derick away. I do think JB told the kids strictly not to play any pranks at the wedding. Could have been out of respect for Derick or his ill mother, but likely it was bc Derick is an "outsider" and may have been pissed off because unlike Chad Paine, he wouldn't have come ready to deal with that kind of BS on his wedding day; knowing that Derick has the ability to take his daughter away -- I think he probably is trying to avoid pissing him off unnecessarily over dumb things.

Anyone else think it was awesome that Derick called her Michelle -- instead of Mrs. Duggar or Jill's mom -- when he was doing the TH about her coming to look at wedding venues? I get a lot of fiancés/inlaw's call the spouse's parents by the first name, but somehow I would think JB and Michelle would expect more "respect." After all they could put a stop to the whole wedding if they changed their mind . . . . They're not going to be able to push Derick around too far. Sure he's living in their house now and with that comes some control, but if there are too many demands on his time, I could see him splitting -- not saying he'll never see her family again, but conveniently buying his own home, moving 30 min further away etc. -- whatever is best for "his" family not JB and Michelle. JD is such a douche. I love how he says in the previews that Derick and Ben have a lot to prove. Derick has nothing to prove to JD. If he does well on rock climbing, great. If he doesn't, oh well. I don't see him being like Ben and thinking "OMG I'm so nervous, what will they think." Derick knows who he is -- a college educated man with a professional job, mission experience etc. Meanwhile JD has never lived away from home for worked for anyone else his whole life -- not counting his volunteer fireman and constable gigs. His confidence comes from being the oldest brother in town who can now push around his brothers in law -- he'll be able to get that with young, unqualified, under confident Ben, but not so much with Derick.

Yes but whether JB likes it or not, Ben will be the "headship" once they are married and if he wanted to leave with Jessa, he could regardless of any handyman job or warehouse room being promised by JB. Honestly it would be best if they did leave and lived however Ben could afford. Now that would mean princess Jessa maybe contributing financially or agreeing to live in a studio apartment or whatever Ben could get in Hot Springs as he works odd jobs, maybe learns a trade/finishes college, so that they can have a more "settled" life. Jessa isn't dumb and could contribute even by working retail; in these small Arkansas towns, I bet Mike Seewald knows a business owner or two and could say "my daughter in law is moving to the area and they're just getting started, any chance you could hire her a few hrs a week?" It wouldn't be the most comfortable life for a while, but I feel like it would bond Ben and Jessa together, make them mature, and get them out of either family's control. Given their odd courtship rituals though, it's not like they can even come up with such a plan while still engaged because they always have to have a Duggar with them. They honestly should take the youngest possible kids on dates with them and keep them distracted with soda or video games or whatever, so they can talk without some kid hearing and reporting back "Ben and Jessa are going to move away the second after the wedding bc they don't want to work for Dad."

I agree that a Jill/Derick spin off would do relatively well. Having married a non-Gothard conservative, there are some ways in which Jill will have to go fundie lite -- and I think the public would be interested in what she chooses to change when raising her own kids. That being said I hope a spin off doesn't happen bc it's likely to be bad for their marriage and also for Jill's personal growth. Unlike most women, Jill wasn't a full grown adult when she got married. She is reasonably un/under-educated and also has no exposure to tv, music, politics, current events etc. beyond whatever her family told her. She needs to be able to learn this stuff from Derick and that'll never happen if the cameras are rolling as I don't see Derick as the kind of guy who will "correct" his wife and embarrass her when she says the earth is flat or whatever. Plus they courted long distance for a few months, got engaged, got married 3 months later having never had any time to talk alone. They need alone time to get to know the other person -- how do they handle times of stress like when their kid won't sleep; is one a better night owl than the other; does one get totally cranky when his wife is baby talking w the baby and ignoring him etc. If the cameras are rolling, all these interactions will be more "fake" and again they'll delay of the process of really knowing each other. I honestly think the reason the Bill/Jen show works is not only were they both fully grown adults in their 30s before they married, but also because they both have solid professions and if they wanted to walk away from their show -- they could do it on a moment's notice. She's a neonatologist and he owns a reasonably sized business -- they don't NEED the TLC money. With Jill and Derick, sure Derick is an accountant, but he's right out of school and not THAT highly paid; as for Jill, regardless of what they say, I don't see her working for real -- maybe she'll dabble for a while longer in midwifery but I don't see her working 40 hrs a week. If they get a spin off, I can see money having some influence over this in the -- well the Lord blessed us with this and this really could allow us to save up for x, let's keep doing it as long as TLC renews the contract.

So apparently Audrey and Jeremy are married according to People. Honestly they seem made for each other -- kind of vapid and dumb but pretty. From the shows it seemed like Jeremy stayed in Santa Barbara even after getting his for-profit college degree; they made comments about how they don't see each other often and when they do, it's all about wedding planning. Any idea where they're planning on living or how they'll support themselves? I'm guessing Jeremy fancies himself a photographer and while it may not be a National Geographic level job, I guess he'll set up a website and jump into the wedding and/or senior portrait scene. Though Ca. is expensive -- are they planning on living in Or. instead -- Jeremy was making comments about his kids growing up on the farm. My first thought when I saw the previews that Zach was going to propose to Tory was -- he's doing it to keep up with Jeremy. They are twins, and he does always try to keep up when they go through big milestones. I remember all the "advice" Jeremy was giving him when he went away to college and Zach didn't; I can see Jeremy advising him on relationships as well. Of all the kids I can see Zach working on the farm and then ultimately taking it over. While Jeremy has been away for the last 3-4 yrs, Zach's been in town and has been working pumpkin season as well as the crazy projects that come up. Alternatively I can see him turning his part time soccer gig into a full time job. Not suggesting that it's the best job in the world, but there are plenty of people who raise families while working as a manager of a retail/service store -- I can see him doing that. Plus unlike Audrey, Tori is a teacher -- there was some talk a few yrs ago about her having a job kind of far away. I feel like between a teacher and a retail manager with some TLC income here and there, they'd do fine. It seems like Tori is sensible, and I can see Zach "stepping up" to take care of her and provide her a decent life; even when he was young, he didn't respect Matt because Amy was working and doing a lot more while Matt was coming up with grand plans for the farm. I can see how he wouldn't want that for his wife. Jeremy and Audrey honestly seem too vain and cocky to plan or work hard for anything.

I don't disagree that Ben is an idiot who is in this for sex and fame. So guess what -- JB could have said NO to the courtship. This was very much of a suitor approaches my daddy, daddy checks him and the family out and approves/disapproves the courtship -- scenario. It's not like a normal family where she met him at her school or work or match.com, and her family had to deal. If JB thinks he is so dumb and horny, then say no to the courtship. But if you have decided that Ben is good enough to court, then you should treat him with some respect when he is around your family -- even if it ultimately does not work out. That doesn't mean you have to be buddy-buddy -- because you are still "checking him out." But that means treating him the way you'd treat any guest in your home -- i.e. maybe start with NOT making him scrub the toilets.