Advance35

Does Sansa mean anything to Jon? Even when she's reasonable and making sense (ala the soldiers need rest) Danerys want's Sansa to shut up, so Jon shut her up. Jon is just another one of Dany's "Yes Men." If he were going to be any sort of asset to the North he would have told Dany that the men need rest before fighting yet ANOTHER war.

I once again side with Sansa. The Soldiers just saved the world, some time to rest and recuperate is not out of order. She even delivered it in a polite tone of voice, but The Beast was chewing her face and all but chanted "Now. Now. Now." And this episode proved that Jon would be useless to the North as Dany's consort. He'd be just another "Yes Man." Sansa had a very reasonable suggestion and Jon pretty much told her to shut the hole in her face because "Queenie" is feeling insecure. I think Sansa told Tyion hoping something would come of it. Something that will hurt Danery's powerbase long term. And she wasn't wrong. Varys has all but jumped ship and given considerable thought to Dany's assassination. Tyrion is hanging by a thread. Love the chemistry between Tyrion and Sansa by the way. Squeeee.

First things first, Sansa looked EXQUISITE at the Winterfell Celebration. Hair was on point and that dress looked much better than it did in pictures. I award her look of the night. Extra points because I bet she made it herself. I now think I ship Tyrion and Sansa. I'm sorry, there are MANY issues about how they came to be but PD and ST have awesome chemistry. The weighted gaze they had when Dany secured Gendry's loyalty. You could tell Sansa was ready to spit nails, seeing that Dany had another one of the 7 Kingdoms in her pocket and Tyrion looking at her with a "please remain poised" look on his face. Also him seeking her out before leaving Winterfell. And him genuinely trying to get through to her. Even at her most belligerent and snarky, Tyrion is always gentle with her. I like that. I don't know if the show would/will go there, but if they did. Thanks to the chemistry on-screen, I don't think I would hate it. I think Sansa is jealous of Dany's power and what she views as Dany's security but I also just think, Sansa doesn't like her. Some have suggested that if Dany and Jon got together, The North would be protected and looked after but Sansa had a reasonable suggestion in the War Council, the men needed rest and Jon IMMEDIATELY sided with Dany against her. THAT is why Sansa hates her. She saw how Margaery controlled Joffrey, Littlefinger controlled Lysa. If there is love, as far as Sansa's concerned, there will always be a power imbalance. She's not wrong. Hate Danerys, she does, but it's clear she wants Cersei dead even more, based on her catty comment to Jaimie.

I love Sansa, she's a spoiled, icey, haughty little snit (frequently) but I love the girl anyway. And I am totally shipping her and Tyrion (a little ashamed). When Dany awarded Gendry storms end and the look Tyrion and Sansa shared. ST does good work with PD. Also Tyrion coming to see Sansa before leaving and trying to get through to her about Dany. He doesn't want Sansa making powerful enemies. Tyrion is well aware of Sansa's MANY faults but seems very drawn to her anyway. I don't know if they are in anyway endgame but if the writers went there, I would totally buy it. Though you know Sansa is going to be HIGH maintenance lol. Sansa knew what she was doing when she told Tyrion "the secret." She's hoping she knocked over just the right domino to eventually topple Dany. All that said, I thought Sansa had a point about the soldiers needing rest after "The Great War." And that's why she's been so adverse to Jon's love for Dany, she knows Dany's word will be law for Jon no matter what she says. Jon made it very clear Sansa was to shut up in the war planning meeting. I have know doubt some have a renewed hatred for Sansa but I'm living for the drama she brings.

Now that the threat to the entire world is over. Dany is about Dany and claiming the Iron Throne, like every other crown chaser in this story. The only difference is she's had magical plot armor for a majority of the show and dragons. If it will get her on the Iron Throne, I doubt she'd balk at it. Sansa is right not to trust her. When push comes to shove, what is best for House Stark will only ever truly matter to members of House Stark. And it goes both ways. Sansa isn't the least bit concerned with what's in the best interest of Dany, nor should she be.

Didn't she also have one of her Dragons burn a noble alive, as an example? Even though she didn't know whether he was guilty or not? This was while she was in Mereen I believe. Not to mention that Noble she forced to become her betrothed. For some reason I remember a scene where he was pretty clear he did NOT want to marry her (though this was the corner of the show that interested me the least so maybe I have some things wrong). The People of Kings Landing aren't loyal to any Nobles. They jeered Tyrion, they cheered during Cersei WoS, They didn't care when The High Septon and Queen Margaery were blown sky high. They probably cheer all Noble v. Noble fighting on some level. As a person of color, I wouldn't automatically call D&D racist or any other label. They are working off of the source material and horrible things have happened to ALL manner of people in this story. Nobody is immune and as someone viewing the story unfold, nobody should be either.

This I could see happening. And it doesn't surprise me about Missandrei, If Cersei thinks there is even a CHANCE she's not going to get her way, she makes her opponent suffer as much as possible on the way to victory. It's who she is. It's what Sansa (though not in optimum articulate fashion) warned Jon about in Season 7 Episode 1. Dany is down a dragon, Jorah and she just found out she is not the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. I have no trouble picturing her, losing her grip after the loss of an additional dragon and Missandrei. I also always thought Dany's season 2 magic tour in that Warlock Temple was a sign she was doomed. That she would never sit on the Iron Throne. She'd come close but............ The power plays and twist of fate have always been gaspingly brutal, the recent spoilers fit right in. Dany has never been up against someone like Cersei before. I don't think Tyrion has ever grasped the true horror of Cersei because he grew up with her, so he's kind of inoculated to how depraved she is. There will be plenty of haters but I also think there are going to be plenty of viewers that are just fine with the ending.

LOL, I'll join your table. Not shocked by any of the leaks or of the fates revealed. The potential fate spelled out in the leaks is no worse then Ned Stark or The Red Wedding, in my eyes. Though I admit, it looks like my fave will come through everything ok, all things considered. So I guess it's easy for me to smile at the shock of it all. But I agree with a poster up thread, there are SO many Mad Queen Dany theories running around, that speculation caught fire for a reason. I have know doubt this is the fate of all these characters in the books. GRRM just didn't get there (and let's be real, he was never going to). I'm still grateful to D&D that I will know how this whole saga ends.

Ugh. I hate that they didn't let us see that. Sansa had to be forced to drink during the Battle of Blackwater, she hated the taste of booze when with LF (but was trying to act sophisticated), I remember the warmth between her and Jon when he watched her try Ale and hated the taste. For her to have her own wineskin???? At least let me see Tyrion's face when she asks for it. I love forward momentum but a part of me will always miss when Kings Landing was humming with courtiers and intrigue. Now it's like a Castle Cersei haunts. That was one of my favorite Tyrion and Sansa scenes.

I always did like his dynamic with Sansa. I'm just sorry the end of this show needs to be such a mad dash. It would be very interesting to watch these characters evolve, since they all have (some in good ways and some not). I do see Tyrion as being loyal to Dany and the Westeros she say's she wants to build but at the same time, I think it's very telling that his instinct was to reach out to Sansa before fleeing to safety. We didn't see him make the same overture to Missandei or Varys or anyone else. He in no way agreed with Sansa's tone when talking about the "Dragon Queen" but he also didn't seem to appreciate Missandei shutting Sansa up. While consistently haughty, snarky and remote. Sansa does allow a little thaw with Tyrion (not a whole lot) but enough that he knows and remembers, she's more than the ice queen shown to the rest of the world. My only real disappointment with the Crypt scenes was that we didn't get Sansa, Tyrion and Varys comment on the demise of Littlefinger. Sigh. I know we are pressed for time, but LF was HUGE antagonist for all three.

In addition to keeping The Northern Lords placated, Sansa was doing something in front of the small folk because when Arya showed up and demanded they get someone whom she knew could verify her identity, The Guards told her, Lady Sansa is to busy to be disturbed. Whatever reputation Sansa has with The Northerners, I doubt it's that of a slacker.

I got the impression the primary job Jon wanted her to perform, was keep the people together, which she did. despite their grumbling and dissatisfaction with the King in the North. She kept them from rebelling and taking their forces and going home. Something Jon finger-painted over when he made his massive political blunder (hence Lord Glover taking his forces and leaving). Sansa not only fluffed the Lords as needed (something that is a full-time job) but took on the practical matters of running Winterfell and The North as a whole. Making arrangements in case they were attacked by The Night King OR Cersei (something nobody else added to their calculations). Sansa being aware of when she is out of her league is how she's lasted so long, as just a regular girl/woman without magic or special powers. And Tyrion wasn't overly concerned with the masses either. His first instinct was to get himself and Sansa to safety. Sansa is the only one we see him yelling "Come on" to when the dead came alive down there. Some things are instinct. If your lucky, self-preservation is one of them.

I've always questioned whether Margaery Tyrell would have done any different. Catelyn, comparatively, did only half the job she was supposed to. Sansa knows how to dress and courtesy. She can sew, dance (supposedly) and be charming (more so in the books) but was never schooled in political currents. Margaery was taught everything Sansa was and THEN SOME. But would Margaery have played it any different. The Tyrells as a group are schooled and never would have put their House in the position of being at odds with the royal family. At least not on behalf of an outsider. But I thought the "I can't remember" thing was unintentionally shrewd. At the time, she thought she would be marrying into the Royal Family, so antagonizing them would have made her a bad president but at the same time she didn't claim (publicly) that Arya was wrong. Shrugs.

I'm pretty much with you on your reading. However, I thought their scenes were more romantic than the majority of the couples the show has tried to sell. I was actually surprised Tyrion was so blase about Sansa's aversion to Dany. Missandrei was pissed. But after her outburst, it looked like Tyrion was giving Missandrei a look of exasperation, not Sansa. I don't for one moment think Tyrion agrees with Sansa about Dany but he's not one to appreciate Sansa being chastised either. It'll be interesting to see his reaction when Dany has to press the issue with Sansa, in terms of where she fits in on the hierarchy and all that comes with it.

The fandom pathological hatred is actually what turned me into a fan as well. That and I just don't like the swords and sorcery nonsense. That part of the story puts me to sleep (last episode being the exception). Though in retrospect, The Night King and all that beyond the wall tripe is over, so, it's really the Throne that matters. Titles and Power matters now more then ever. I always thought Sansa didn't tell Jon about Littlefingers forces because she didn't want to pull LF into their reclamation of Winterfell. She wanted LF away from her and out of her life. Once she couldn't come up with another solution and victory was beyond Jon Snow, she knew she had to reach out. Sansa receives a lot of criticism for not displaying her courtesies and pulling out her best Margaery Tyrell with Dany and otheres, but look at how it ended for Margaery. Olenna said it herself, as well loved as Margaery was, by Nobles and Common Folk, she's nothing but ash now. Being nice (on the surface) didn't save her. In Sansa's view, someone she hates (Cersei) is the one that rose to the top and claimed the Throne, destroying any and everyone that stood in her way. In other words, Cersei won. By being cold, unrelenting, unending in her selfishness and callousness. The Tyrells saved her and her House during the Battle of Blackwater and Cersei was still unrelenting in her grasp on power. House Tyrell is extinct. Sansa's still young but I can understand her thinking, "Hey, much as I hate her, Is Cersei wrong?" I doubt we'll get dialogue but I can see Sansa thinking alliances are surface only. Nothing she's ever seen has disproved that. Dany has everything Sansa wants, Power, Protection, Answers to nobody. Sansa gives Dany the strict margin necessary, not an inch more. I understand her feelings. Oh boy. I think the show has helped the character gain more fans than haters but......yep. In some quarters she is the most reviled and evil character ever drawn by literature. Everything that's ever gone wrong can somehow be laid at her feet. And if she isn't nice or worshiping fan favorites.........Here go hell come.

Haven't you heard? Sansa is one of the most evil women to ever walk the land of Westeros. Her hearts as cold and dark as the recently vanquished Night King. She wants power and influence and isn't waving pom poms when those things are given to others. I'm beginning to question whether Catelyn Stark was really her mother. I suspect she may have been born of a Jackal or in a lake of fire. s/

I still don't feel Sansa did anything wrong. Before power and thrones and titles, Sansa's priority has been survival. Whatever situation she finds herself in, she wants to live through, no matter what. The only situation that made her even entertain the idea of not striving for survival, was when she was in the custody of Ramsay Bolton. Those things in the crypt were moving pretty fast. There are characters who are willing to jump into the Frey (Lyanna Mormont, Jorah, Alys Karstark, Theon) brave as they are, their all dead. It's all over. Had Sansa not hid, she would have to come to a similar end. She doesn't have plot armor or a supernatural skill set. She's a normal young woman who was in out of her element and in over her head. Most people said Sansa was unlikely to make it out of Season 5 alive and here she is 3 episodes from the end, still striving and surviving. I say she should keep doing what she's been doing. Sansa's been in the center of a lot of the series action and has lived to tell the tale. *Hat Tip*

The new Adam?!?!?!? Ummmm Kay. I do think the Adam/Sharon pairing was one of the more gripping sagas in the last 10 years. And one of the most fascinating (if macabre) for the Sharon Collins character. Adam brought some terrible things out of Sharon (a potential for callousness and duplicity) but he also brought some good things out, a certain resilience and bite (during that period she wasn't always a take it on the chin type and quite a few times, would give as good as she got). I do think the Adam character took a nose dive when they went with Chadam. I don't know if it was anti-chemistry or if they were just to tepid after the roller coaster he was on with Sharon but it just didn't click for me.

This sums up my feelings. I think when Sansa encounters dangerous situations, her inner thoughts are "live through this, live through this, live through this." Brave as Lyanna was, she's dead and so is her House. Survival is the name of the game. Sansa wins as long as she's still alive. And credit where it's due. I've loved some of Sansa's sewing. Her mockingbird dress and her wedding attire (In Season 5) were some of my favorite ensembles on the whole show.

This is what I think is at the root of Sansa's loathing of Dany. Prior to Dany's arrival, in Sansa's eyes, on the power totem, the only person she took a backseat to was Jon. She felt a level of safety. With Dany in the picture, she's down quite a few rungs on the power latter. If Sansa has power, she is confident she can never be treated the way she was in Kings Landing or the way she was by Ramsay. Anyone who would strip her of that power, even symbolically/passively (like Dany having the North bend the knee) will earn Sansa's seething hate. Is it rational? Depends on your perspective. Sansa has been in Kings Landing and w/ Littlefinger the last few years. She wasn't with or around people that believed or practiced genuine cooperation and team work. There was nothing altruistic about anyone she interacted with (the closest to anyone being genuine might have been Tyrion). Allies are just another kind of enemy (Lannister and The Tyrells), Marriage is a tool for subjugation, power grabs and sabotage (Lannisters/Baratheons, Lannister/Tyrells, Tully/Frey, Baelish/Arryn, Stark/Bolton) so she sneers at motivations of love and genuine trust. Who wouldn't in her shoes. I even question if there might be some jealousy on Sansa's part. Dany has dragons, Unsullied and Dothraki (or did), Dany is probably someone whom appears invulnerable, someone that can't be hurt and doesn't know fear. I imagine that's something Sansa covets for herself. Those feelings and the power she believes could/would/will give them to her. I also think it's why Tyrion tends to go easy on her, in terms of verbal sparring. He got to know her well in Season 2. Saw her change during the course of Season 3. He assumes her hardness comes from. pain more than hunger for power.

*Gulp* I actually really enjoyed Sansa's scenes with Tyrion. I don't think she comes off passive with him in any way. In terms of personality their characters tend to make for very interesting interaction. The haughty, chilly, but good-hearted "princess" and he the rakish, sarcastic, rogue (who often follows his more heroic nature). I don't know if the show will really try to make them happen, but the potential is DEFINITELY there. It wouldn't be easy but a rapport between the two was easily re-established this episode. The actor and actress have a palatable chemistry IMO. It wouldn't be the worst ending as far as I'm concerned. And it would also totally be like spitting on LF's grave. LF HATED Tyrion. I think he hated Tyrion even more when he was married to Sansa. LOL, because I'm picturing, Sansa as we know her now, trying to lead a sing-a-long. LMAO.

Everyone knew Sansa was up on the battlements and it was a bad sign when she came down to the crypts. I thought that's why everyone looked even more glum. Like damn, they've gotten so close she needed to be sent to safety. This isn't going to end well is it? Battle with the living is one thing, how do you prepare for the dead to rise in your families crypt? Who could keep their head on straight during something like that? Whom, who wasn't trained as a warrior that is. I thought the whole thing came off as in-character for Sansa, myself. She was so terrified she didn't comport herself as she normally would. And she saw first hand, the Dothraki flame swords go out. She knew Arya sending her to the crypts mean't it was going to get really bad.

Though for me, this whole thing throws a lot of the leaks into question. I can't see Tyrions rumored storyline playing out with the Sansa nuance mixed in. I found the Tyrion/Sansa dynamic deliberately illustrated this episode. I'd imagine fear of pending death heightens things but, Wow. Just the whole scene. They wound up sequestered away together, underground, while the world is dying and falling around them. The imagery and then the hand kiss. When I acknowledge chemistry, it doesn't mean I ship a couple but after those scenes, if I shipped a couple in GoT, it would probably be those two. PD's face is so expressive. I'll be interested in seeing how the show proceeds with this. It's Dany's power Sansa resents, not Dany herself and I think there is a difference. I don't think she feels safe with anyone holding power over her (I think she was a little less resentful with Jon because they are family but I thought some chafing was still there). How does something like this get resolved. I understand why Sansa feels the way she does, (though not a fan) I can understand why Dany feels like she's earned (whether I agree is a whole other thing) the loyalty of the North. I guess these moments and circumstances of human drama are what they will try to resolve in the last couple of episodes.

But look at what happened to Lyanna. There is no door prize for bravery and honesty. At present, Sansa's dream is to have House Stark independently rule a part of the entire continent, Dany's existence and Jon bending the knee, have turned that dream into ash. If she wants any power or clout in the North she'd be better served sticking to her guns and hoping that the North, like Kings Landing, is a "What have you done for me lately group."

I agree, I don't think there was anything she could do. That dagger was for HER last line of defense, meaning when one of the undead got their hands on her. And I agree, she was down there with other people that probably COULD do more. The name of Sansa's game is survival. Her ability and willingness to keep her head down is why she is still alive and others who may be lauded for their actions, are long since dead. I didn't have a problem with Sansa's remark about Dany (It really wasn't that bitchy all things considering, is she not the "Dragon Queen." Cersei and The AOD aside, Dany is the spoiler to everything Sansa wants. In Kings Landing, even if you have to put grudges aside for a moment, the grudges are still there and you go back to hating your adversary immediately after the threat. If the North isn't independent, then it and Sansa are answerable to Dany and whomever comes after her, henceforth and forever more. The hand kiss is what sent me over the moon. It just felt epic. And I do think the Sansa character is a chemistry magnet. ST does well in that regard.