Advance35

Common sense? From Dany? Hope springs eternal. When actually pursuing the Iron Throne, she's been one disaster after another. Even Olenna use to refer to her as "Tyrion's Queen" thinking she was a poor substitute for Margaery. Dany's sense of entitlement and divine right has led to the fall of The Reach, Yara Greyjoy's fleet decimated and on the run, plus another dead Dragon. Is it any wonder Sansa wants the North independent from Dany's parade of blunders. Jon has Winterfell/The North shackled to Dany and she is simply not a good ruler. As has been displayed all season.

All true. It was wonderful acting. And I'm someone that wasn't impressed with Lena in Season 1. I agree about how sloppy D&D have gotten but it's so hard for me to be mad at them because GRRM was never going to write a conclusion. I honestly don't see how he could get any of these characters to anything approaching where they are, within the course of two books. I feel like Jon and Dany allow Sansa in the room because of The Vale. Tyrion said that Sansa would make sure Dany lost the Vale if there was a war. This fits, as far as I know, because Lord Royce NEVER declared for Jon and even pointed out last season, the Knights of the Vale are there for Sansa alone. They don't give a tinkers tool about Jon and they see Dany for what she is. As gutsy as Sansa's gotten, I do think she's still scared of Cersei. Which I find believable, people that terrify you as a child can still have a hold over you, even when you've grown. For that alone, it would have been interesting to see how Sansa would have comported herself at the Dragon Pit meeting in Season 7. I will never understand why Dany or her henchman Jon, couldn't just say, "The Soldiers are fine Sansa, they are ready and eager to move." Bam. Done. Sansa is apparently not allowed to make warranted and practical observations/queries if the wannabe Queen's feelings aren't up for it. And if Sansa wanted to undermine the group endeavor, she could have whispered in Lord Royce's ear about how the Vale Soldiers need rest. The Vale is apparently there for her. Jon hasn't won them over (according to Tyrion) and they are not impressed with Daenerys either. But in the interest of surface cooperation (which is all she is obligated to perform) Sansa watches Dany chew her own face about what she's owed and how they have to go "now, now, now." She lets Jon flex, yell and try to intimidate her, because she wants Cersei dead as much as anyone. Their rush job has Dany down another dragon, had her standing outside Cersei's Kings Landing like a tearful Avon Lady "Please buy some of my products" and Missandrei lost her head. Tsk Tsk.

I'm so torn, Lena is far and away the best actress on the show, bar none. She and PD made that scene on the battlements award worthy. You could honestly see when Tyrion hit the wrong note "Your reign is over." That was when Missandrei died. I don't care enough about Dany or her dragons to give it to much thought but when I rewatched the scene, it looked like Euron's ships didn't come into view until they rounded some mountains, it looked like prior they would have been out of sight. What was the Queen of Rationale Thinking doing on the dragon anyway? Was she scouting or just flying around for an ego boost? Though Sansa never offered it, her advice about Ramsay applies to Cersei as well. They enjoy drawing blood, they enjoy hurting people. If Cersei is going to lose, she wants Daenerys to kill a lot of people to get to her. Accurate summation. When Daenerys doesn't get her way, watch out 7 Kingdoms. You've got a new tyrant on your hands. The show doesn't have time to go into the inner life of any characters (to my regret) but I'd love to know where Sansa's head is, in terms of herself. She wants Northern Independence but I'd like her to articulate how she feels about her place in Winterfell. She's pretty powerless, Jon has shown that. The only reason he doesn't have her confined to here chamber, I'd wager, is because The Vale wouldn't stand for it. She recognized the maneuver by Dany and Tyrion with Gendry. It was something she had in mind in 7x01, to further bind, what she saw as loyal Northern Families to House Stark (back when she had a little power) but Jon put a stop to it. I don't know, I just understand Sansa's resentment, I'm reluctant to give the writers to much credit but I can't help it. I'm very much on her side.

I felt there has been a double standard for a while now. Even last season, Sansa got a lot of grief for "being focused on titles" but that's all Dany, Tyrion, Varys and the rest of their party cared about. And Jon too. If titles didn't matter, why was he unwilling to lie to Cersei about his allegiance to Daenerys? He can be very hypocritical. Could you imagine the outcry if Jon disliked a man in Sansa's life and Sansa proceeded to treat Jon the way he currently treats her?

In Season 7, Sansa was content to let the battle come to Winterfell, in terms of the Night King or Cersei, I wonder how that would go. As is, Dany and (1/2) her enablers were standing outside of Cersei's gates like a pack of Medieval Avon Ladies that have just been told nobody is buying their products. The "Queen" is down a dragon, a Yes Woman and they've managed to provide Cersei, Euron and Qyburn a lovely morale boost. Capital work by the Dragon Queen. Sansa had better come up with a plan B, as is, Dany and Jon's Leadership is about as inspiring as an Abbott and Costello routine. Jon dragged (the beaten down) Northerners to fight for the sparkly toy Dany has to have now, but did the Vale go too. I don't think they've sworn to Dany yet have they? Tyrion and Varys certainly aren't comfortable with the Vale's level of commitments since they seem certain Sansa could torpedo Dany's hold over that particular Kingdom. If she were purely interested in self-aggrandizement Sansa could certainly go there, since I doubt they'd consistently tell her to "shut up" every time she tried to offer sound advice.

This is my outlook. It would not have been hard to say "Sansa, the men are all set." The scene spelled out that the men just fought a war, were exhausted and some injured, but because everyone (accept Sansa) was too concerned with coddling Dany, they wouldn't tell her they need to wait. LMAO. Dany and her Yes Men are determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, every time. Uppity Sansa spoke her mind and though she views Dany as a bug nobody can crush, it was a reasonable and sound concern. But Daenerys Targaryen....cannot be made to display patience. She wants what she wants, "Now. Now. Now."

This is what I get from her as well. They had independence for a short while, in her eyes, I imagine it was a lot to lose. Or have taken away, in actuality. Oooooooh I like it. And this is also a good reason for Sansa to plant her political grenade now, instead of waiting until Dany is declared ruler and everything is cemented. The Vale hasn't sworn to Dany either from what I recall. They stayed in Winterfell for Sansa, who convinced them to help fight the AOD but they don't seem inclined to support Daenerys. I can't help being grateful to D&D, flaws and all, GRRM was never going to finish this story, however rushed, I'm going to be provided answers and there is a chance, a few of the characters will get the ending I want for them. LOL.

I don't think Sansa's wired that way, at least not anymore. I can't see her opening up to anyone. She don't even think she did to Jon or Arya. If we do see her reflect on any hardship or past hurts, it's usually just her taking solace in the perpetrators death (Joffrey) or gloating about her hand in it (Ramsay). Dany seems to know more about Sansa (from Tyrion, I'd imagine) then vice versa but even if they knew how much they have in common (if one feels that they do), I don't think it would change either woman's outlook. Sansa will see Dany as the woman that duped her rube brother into surrendering the North, stripping her land of it's independence and making The North forever subordinate to the Iron Throne. Dany will see Sansa as a conniving, icey, grasping, ingrate who doesn't recognize a good thing (her rule) when it's in front of her. She doesn't owe anyone anything more. I'd imagine for Sansa, being powerless within the halls of Winterfell is a special kind of hell. I can't blame her for practically choking on resentment.

Yep that's what we're quoting. Unless info has to be delivered a certain way (maybe Sansa has to play airplane to get Jon to open his mouth and swallow his food), as a Lord he should be able to use all gained knowledge, no matter the means. That's what I recall. I can't remember how she came to that decision. But she wanted Westeros more than she wanted Mereen so it probably didn't matter. The only way Sansa can please some is if she found bushels of grass that resembled pom poms, stood in the center of Winterfell and yelled at the top of her voice "Give Me a "D", Give Me An "A", Give Me An "E" Give Me An "N" and so on. But than it would be "Sansa didn't kick high enough." Sansa can be charming, when she wants to. She certainly been doing so with the Vale, though Jon's been putting her in a corner non-stop. Obedience without Question.

Ya because Sansa has never told Jon "We've been so occupied with the enemy to the North we've forgotten about the one to the South." 7x01. "If your her enemy she will never stop until she destroys you." Also 7x01. Does Jon Snow have a memory retention problem? If so, maybe he should abdicate and let Sansa run the North, he can stick to military campaigns. I'm sure he does. Yep. Sansa should be damn glad she's got the Vale in her corner (as Tyrion noted, Sansa would make sure Dany lost the Vale if the masses were in favor of Jon taking the throne). She is the one that has continued to foster that relationship.

Yes. Exhaustion and fatigue are things she completely made up. No such thing. And here I thought Sansa gave up believing in Fairy Tales and Songs. I wonder if Qyburn and Sansa were trained by the same Septa, since Qyburn himself quoted Dany's forces being fatigued. Whatever Sansa's motivation, it was a real concern. Just because you don't like the source doesn't mean the information isn't worth considering. Unless of course the one that doesn't like you is Mother of Draogons and 4 million other titles. Yeppers. But you know, Sansa should just go to her chambers and brush her hair all day.

A question for the writers perhaps? It was dialogue in the episode. He told Tyrion, his soldiers are exhausted while The Queens are prime and battle ready. Little birds or deductive reasoning? Who knows. No I think Jon feels Sansa should be seen but not heard. He never said she was wrong so it's subjective. Maybe we should have seen Davos rolling his eyes, then I could make the leap that Sansa was wrong and the troops don't need rest. Shame she doesn't have advisers that will tell her things she doesn't want to hear.

Well I'd need more then subjective facial muscle interpretation. All I got from his expression was "Shut up Sansa." For me to feel like Sansa was wrong, I'd need someone to have said why. For some, Sansa's wrong if she says the sky is blue and that's fine but for me, nope. Around and around we go. The soldiers are exhausted, Sansa knows it, Jon knows it, Qyburn knows it, Cersei knows it, but Jon doesn't care because Dany doesn't feel popular and wants the Iron Throne now. He shut Sansa up when Dany started to snarl. But no need to continue the debate, you won't change my mind and I won't change yours and everything is still everything. Yep. Because she doesn't throw herself before Dany chanting prayers of supplication/worship, she's an evil, conniving, dark-hearted banshee spit out of the ninth circle of hell.

This is Jon's problem. He expects Sansa to blindly follow him and that's not who she is. Not anymore anyway. I think Sansa views herself as having gone through and suffered a lot, to regain Winterfell/The North and she understandably resents that it was given away. It's no secret she is not a Dany fan but she makes a reasonable suggestion and Dany is chewing her own face going on about what the North owes her and Jon is 3 seconds away from having her sent to her chambers. Is it any wonder Sansa has kicked things up a notch by initiating subtle sabatoge?

That's one interpretation. I disagree. Jon didn't say the soldiers are fine. He told Sansa the North does whatever the Queen says. That's it. He NEVER said Sansa was wrong. As a viewer I don't think she was. He cares about Dany much more. And for her, he clearly will march an exhausted force to the Capital to battle Cersei. Qyburn himself made mention of it, the exhaustion of their forces allowed Cersei to feel even more emboldened. My issue is, neither he, nor anyone else, said that Sansa was WRONG. Jon became irate because Uppity Sansa didn't nod her head and say "Yes your grace." "Captial Idea Your grace." "Your genius is an inspiration to us all, your grace." That doesn't surprise me. Everyone is exhausted. Despite what her highness thinks, rest would have been a nice refresher for everyone. But Dany pulled her Christmas Story, "I don't care HOW, I want it NOW." And nobody other then Sansa has enough gumption to push back.

I honestly have no trouble buying those two on screen or at least, even an Adam that looks like MG, being attracted to Sharon. But then, I'm someone that actually enjoyed when Sharon was with Scotty (he was also younger). I'm not too up on spoilers but the fact that they hang out so much suggest they've been working together a lot. I'm looking forward to seeing what develops. Also agree, SC must work out like a machine. Her figure is awesome.

Is that deal still in place? When Dany was smirking in victory at Jon putting Uppity Sansa back in her place, she referenced all 7 Kingdoms being under the control of their rightful Queen. Dany wants world domination, nothing less is acceptable to her.

I don't know if it's fear or the realization that she's no different then the other players, she just has dragons. I believe he was once completely confident in her ability to make the world a better place (boasted by her belief in him) but now he's worried that she'll do anything and everything to get to the Throne, like all the other crown chasers. His whole pitch to Sansa, "Her followers love her." "She's going to make the world a better place." He has/had her on a very high pedestal. There's only one direction to go when you've reached the top. And I agree with an earlier post, if Dany said the North is granted it's independence and will henceforth be known as an unshakable ally to the Iron Throne, Sansa would be on side, She might still have opinions, aka the troops need rest. But she'd be working with Dany, not against her. But the idea of not having ALL 7 Kingdoms makes Dany jump up and down like Yosemite Sam.

Well troop exhaustion is one of the things Qyburn gloated to Tyrion about during their parley. They fought an intense battle not long ago, their exhausted. I don't think it's Jenga (or the Westeros Equivalent). But none of these guys disagreed (out loud) with Sansa either. Why didn't ANYONE say, the soldiers are ready to march, in "tip top, bright eyed bushy tailed, condition?" Nope, Jon just said, "Dany you say jump, the North get's froggy." He's just a "Yes Man" like all of Dany's worshipers. Everyone dancing to the tune of Dany's self-ordained divine right has cost the "Greatest Army The World Has Ever Seen" another dragon, which will translate to the necessity of MORE man power. That's what I saw in the episode. Why didn't he simply say, "The Men are ready to march. no worries Sansa?" Is he afraid to make Dany angry? Does he not want her to be near tears again? Gee and some wonder why Jon marrying Dany wouldn't comfort Sansa in terms of benefit to the North. Jon is caught up in his own angst, The Dragon Queen's insecurity and apparently doesn't have the grit or nerve to stand up to HIS chosen Queen and say, "We, maybe, should wait and give the soldiers some time." Jon's team Dany and that's fine, it's his choice to make. Sansa is about the North and it's independence. She is on her own, Jon has shown her that. I agree. She planted a seed and is hoping it will grow into a crippling force for Dany's regime. Everyone knows Cersei has to go but Sansa is hoping infighting, distrust and ambiguity will be enough to destabilize Dany's bid for ultimate power. If you are going to fight, fight to win. Sansa doesn't support Dany and Jon is angry she's not following him, Dany, like their a double act Pied Piper.

Would Sansa and Dany getting along be at all realistic? Their goals are completely counter to each other. Like all factions of an alliance (in this story, Lannister/Baratheon, Lannister/Tyrell, Tully/Stark/Frey, Stark/Bolton, Bolton/Lannister) the individual alliance had each faction working and maneuvering for their own benefit. "There are no real allies, just common interest." And Sansa is right about Jon. He won't stand up to Dany. God forbid the Northern forces be allowed to rest, a few more of their lives are a small price to pay if it gets Dany her throne a little faster. Both in and out of the show, it's like she owes Jon and Dany, blind obedience. Did you see the way Jon reacted to Sansa's reasonable and honest observation in the war planning session? Sansa has cowered (LITERALLY) before the Iron Throne before and she doesn't want to do it again, EVER. Maybe Dany would be a reasonable Queen or friendly to the North (as long as Jon does what she wants), BUT what comes after? Robert Baratheon was friendly with the North but what came after him was VERY different. If Sansa has any shot at Northern Independence she is going to need to thread a string threw a needle, she hates Cersei, see's Dany for the threat (to what Sansa wants) she is and is trying to move accordingly but she's got to move fast. Once Dany's on the throne, it's game over for any shot at Northern Independence. Jon's revelation was/is the only weapon she has to fight with (now that all power players know, if Sansa doesn't like what your doing, go to Jon Snow, he'll put her in her place). I agree, I wouldn't hate if these stories had room to breathe (I question how in the world GRRM will get these characters where he wants them in the course of 2 books) but I find the character turns taking place very believable and on some level, expected.

And fears Power Games in Kings Landing running roughshod over the North. I certainly agree with you there. Who's going to stand up for what's best for the North? Jon proved it wouldn't be him. The North just fought a war, after spending years under the brutal tyrannical reign of the Iron Throne and because Dany camel into Jon's room and cried "Dear Diary, I want the Iron Throne." Jon is ready and willing to throw a weakened North into a war with a fully rested Mercenary Army. That meeting made clear that until Sansa starts kissing Dany's ass, Jon can and will tell her to sit down and shut up. Even when she has valid points. And now that Dany has had another epic fumble, she's going to require more man power to compensate for the loss of ANOTHER dragon. I honestly might have told the secret for Dany's smirk alone but I do agree Sansa had other valid reasons as well.

True. And it has become very clear Dany is losing patience on all fronts. In all seriousness, I already think Sansa is in danger. This is quite the political grenade she's activated. And it's already begun to have a domino effect. When word gets out about WHERE it originated......gulp........ And won't that make for a messy political soup. If Dany were to "remove" Sansa, IF Jon could get behind it (which I would question, no matter how much he wants to ring her neck), I think it would shatter her partnership with Tyrion (open rebellion, I don't think so, but they would never be as productive as they could be). But Arya, I'm quite certain, would return from wherever to avenge her Sister. I really hope we get more scenes with them. Intrigue, Danger, ambiguous romance. They have turned into one of my favorite dynamics on the show. I'm already looking forward to my rewatch tonight. I think Sansa did it for a few reasons. I think Dany looking at Sansa with victory in her eyes, when Jon shut Sansa down in the War Meeting was when Sansa memo'ed to self, "I'll get you for that." But I also don't think she has faith in Jon to hold the line for the North. Her advice about letting the troops rest was sound and I think if Jon weren't so concerned with Dany's feelings he would have agreed. Sansa knows this. It's why she isn't gungho about the two marrying, She doesn't trust Jon to stand up to Dany. In all honesty, I was surprised that he shut Sansa down about giving the troops rest. As I thought that was pretty sound advice. During the end of her scene with Tyrion, they played the music they used when Sansa and LF tricked the Lords of the Vale.

And this episode proved why the idea of them being married ISN'T a relief to Sansa. Jon did not stand up for the North or it's soldiers in that war strategy meeting. The Soldier's need rest and he didn't need to take Sansa's word for it. Jon is just a "Yes Man" to Dany. That's what he is as her lover and that's all he would be if they married. He wouldn't stand up for the North in that war strategy meeting just because he's worried about her feelings. The North and Sansa are on their own. So Sansa is going to have to start "playing the game" that way.

I don't think Sansa telling Tyrion the secret was pure confession, I do think it was partly a maneuver to throw discord into Team Dany. Not enough to disrupt the campaign against Cersei (as far as Sansa knows) but enough to destabilize what was once a very cohesive unit. I thought Sansa's look at Dany during the Winterfell dinner was because of her anointing Gendry Warden of Stormlands. She knew the political motivation behind it, resented it for the successful play that it was and then makes eye contact with Tyrion, letting her disgust show. PD has to be playing these scenes the way he does on purpose. His "Sansa, look at me." He kept trying to reassure her, not just to try and mend her loathing of Dany but because he wants her to feel safe and secure. He knows her for the political liability she is. He told Varys if word really gets out, The North will declare for Jon Snow and Dany will lose The Vale, "Sansa will see to that." All that said, he never treats Sansa like a political liability/enemy. Who sent Sansa word about the attack against Dany's forces on the way to Dragonstone? Was it her ex-husband? Well we heard there is a new ruling Prince of Dorne. But, knowing Sansa these days, she might want some nobody from The North. I see genuine chemistry between Tyrion and Sansa, but underhanded as she can be, I think Tyrion is the superior planner/schemer and I don't know if Sansa would feel comfortable with that over an extended period of time.

And Jon doesn't have the grit to look after the North on the Political Stage. Dany eyes get a little tearful and to make her "feel" better, he immediately shoots down Sansa's logical and prudent idea, of giving the soldiers time to rest and recuperate. She wasn't even asking that anyone take her word for it and advised that they speak to the generals, but Dany went "Waaaaaaaaaah." And Jon's automatic response was "Sansa, sit down and shut up." He wouldn't be looking after anyone and would do no good for the North or House Stark even if he and Dany do marry. Sansa knows this, which is why their coupledom doesn't reassure her. Dany's smug look to Sansa being publicly put in her place was also probably a small part of why Sansa was happy to throw her little poisoned pill into Dany's campaign. She's hoping to kill Dany's reign slowly. Let her defeat Cersei but hoping this is the beginning of the end for the "Dragon Queen."