Stan: The Patriot

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, hellmouse said:

Also, didn't Nina tell him that the illegals he shot at in Season 1 were gone - "she died, he was ex-filtrated"?  Was there ever anything that would have dispelled that belief? Is he going to want to examine Elizabeth's stomach to see if she has a scar from a bullet wound? 

 

Yes, Stan was told through Nina that the woman died and the man was exfiltrated but Stan didn't believe it. When he figured out the Connors were Illegals he had Leanne checked for a bullet scar.

2 hours ago, hellmouse said:

Philip comes across as kind of milque-toast, not a physical threat at all. I could see Aderholt laughing at Stan's suspicions. Does he really think that Philip and Elizabeth Jennings are chopping people up in garages and outwitting the FBI on more than one occasion? 

I really really hope that there's a pay off to Philip's milque-toast act because he's really played it up around Stan. Even if Stan's suspecting him it would make sense if he still had a thousand false assumptions about him that put him at a disadvantage. 

[hellmouse]

On 5/11/2018 at 12:17 PM, sistermagpie said:

On 5/11/2018 at 9:28 AM, hellmouse said:

Philip comes across as kind of milque-toast, not a physical threat at all. I could see Aderholt laughing at Stan's suspicions. Does he really think that Philip and Elizabeth Jennings are chopping people up in garages and outwitting the FBI on more than one occasion? 

I really really hope that there's a pay off to Philip's milque-toast act because he's really played it up around Stan. Even if Stan's suspecting him it would make sense if he still had a thousand false assumptions about him that put him at a disadvantage. 

I agree. I don't think Stan would picture Philip being either a physical or strategic threat to anyone. Stan considers Philip his best friend, and honestly, Philip really has been a good friend to Stan. He is a good listener. He includes Stan in family activities. He plays racquetball with him. He goes to EST meetings. He commiserates about challenges in relationships with wives and children. Even if the hug gave Stan pause, it's hard to see him being able to believe that his best friend Philip is capable of murder or emotional manipulation. Of course, Philip is a master of emotional manipulation. He is (usually) incredibly tuned to other people's emotions, able to say or do just the thing to get the reaction he wants. I think Stan would find that really hard to believe.

As you said in the episode thread, "it'll it'll be really interesting if Stan *wants* to believe that Philip was sucked into this and wants help more than he does. Philip has tried to protect Stan and it would make sense for Stan to want to do the same for Philip. If Philip doesn't want Stan to be another Martha, Stan doesn't want Philip to be another Nina."

It is interesting that in the preview, Stan only tore off the picture of Elizabeth to show someone.  It makes me consider that right now Stan might see Philip as either an unwitting accomplice to Elizabeth or a sort of hostage to her. Maybe he imagines the KGB has blackmailed Philip into being Elizabeth's cover story, and that there's some guy out there who Elizabeth works with. He may genuinely think he can save Philip.

IMO Philip will never abandon Elizabeth. He will kill Stan before doing anything to jeopardize Elizabeth. Stan won't see that coming. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I'm trying to decide what, if any chance, there is that Stan would sit on what he knows and let the FBI just go about their own investigation.  Maybe, they find E's identity, maybe, they don't.  Will Stan just sit on what he knows and will he allow P to take his family and quietly move away?  After that Thanksgiving speech, I can't see it happening.   But, if Stan does continue with his hunches and turns them in, he has to know that he's kissing his own career goodbye.  And what if they put cuffs on Stan?  

Edited May 15, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Umbelina]

In reality?

As I've said over and over again in this thread?  Stan's had a pretty stellar career.  Most long term FBI agents would be thrilled to have even one of Stan's success in their file folder.  Spies call it "making your career."  He's done that and more.

IMO Stan is in full FBI mode now.  He will not shoot off his mouth about the Jennings until he has a bit more to go on, he'll do the work to find some corroborating evidence.  He's going over past cases now, starting with Elizabeth's very coincidental trip to care for Aunt Helen.  When he gets to Martha?  Hopefully soon?  He will remember that fingerprint. 

All he needs to do it's get Philip's prints on a beer?  It's over.

[hellmouse]

45 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

In reality?

As I've said over and over again in this thread?  Stan's had a pretty stellar career.  Most long term FBI agents would be thrilled to have even one of Stan's success in their file folder.  Spies call it "making your career."  He's done that and more.

IMO Stan is in full FBI mode now.  He will not shoot off his mouth about the Jennings until he has a bit more to go on, he'll do the work to find some corroborating evidence.  He's going over past cases now, starting with Elizabeth's very coincidental trip to care for Aunt Helen.  When he gets to Martha?  Hopefully soon?  He will remember that fingerprint. 

All he needs to do it's get Philip's prints on a beer?  It's over.

It's so hard for me to think that Stan could even conceive of Philip being Martha's husband. He knows there is an illegals couple. But that might not click in his mind as being related to the Martha op. That's where the sketches will be important. How much does Philip's Chicago disguise look like his Clark disguise? Not a lot, IMO. Elizabeth on the other hand didn't look all that different in Chicago and Stan apparently suspects her. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Yeah, I just dislike having to see the normal Stan who's not that quick suddenly get inspired and then everything clicks in his head.  So bogus, imo.  I dread it. 

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, hellmouse said:

It's so hard for me to think that Stan could even conceive of Philip being Martha's husband. He knows there is an illegals couple. But that might not click in his mind as being related to the Martha op. That's where the sketches will be important. How much does Philip's Chicago disguise look like his Clark disguise? Not a lot, IMO. Elizabeth on the other hand didn't look all that different in Chicago and Stan apparently suspects her. 

People often assume that Stan finding out means Stan knows about all their crimes, but we don't know what all he'll know about which crime. With Clark they have a fingerprint they could link to Philip. Philip could I guess claim that the apartments are used by multiple people--wonder if Stan would bring in Martha's parents to see if they could ID him. But anyway, we don't, for instance, know that Stan would find out for sure that Philip killed Amador.

Like I said, the way that Stan really cares about Philip and seems to be tracking down an Elizabeth lead first makes it seem like Stan is primed to see Philip as a much nicer guy than he is. This is a guy that still believes Nina was on his side.

[Umbelina]

All of the reviews this week were amazing to read, including this one.  I'm putting it in Stan's thread because of the in depth discussion of Stan, which is excellent.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2018/5/23/17376758/the-americans-season-6-episode-9-recap-jennings-elizabeth

[Loandbehold]

17 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I'm putting it in Stan's thread because of the in depth discussion of Stan, which is excellent.

Thanks for the link. When it comes to the discussion of the loan offer, I believe Stan is very lucky that Philip didn't accept his offer. Imagine Philip accepted. If Stan, who suspects Philip and Elizabeth are illegals, doesn't come through with the money, he risks Philip figuring out what he suspects. If he does loan the money, then Stan's at risk b/c he's helping out an illegal who Stan believes has killed at least several people, including Amador and responsible for Gaad's murder.

[SunnyBeBe]

1 minute ago, Loandbehold said:

Thanks for the link. When it comes to the discussion of the loan offer, I believe Stan is very lucky that Philip didn't accept his offer. Imagine Philip accepted. If Stan, who suspects Philip and Elizabeth are illegals, doesn't come through with the money, he risks Philip figuring out what he suspects. If he does loan the money, then Stan's at risk b/c he's helping out an illegal who Stan believes has killed at least several people, including Amador and responsible for Gaad's murder.

Yeah, I wondered if Philip really thought it through when he refused to accept the money.  Maybe, P thought that the KGB would have thought he was a traitor and that Stan was paying him for Soviet secrets.  Or, maybe, it was just his pride.  I can see that.  But, it could have been used as leverage to keep Stan silent too.  P and E never seemed keen on getting info to use as leverage against him.  But, not sure if Stan knows that. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Can someone tell me who the assassin was that Stan thwarted a few seasons ago?  Somehow Stan spotted this guy and prevented him from killing someone. 

[sistermagpie]

34 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Can someone tell me who the assassin was that Stan thwarted a few seasons ago?  Somehow Stan spotted this guy and prevented him from killing someone. 

He was a guy who was a walk-in to the Rezindentura, a disgruntled vet. Nina gave him a tip.

[Umbelina]

On 5/25/2018 at 3:21 AM, Aulty said:

I can't delete this.  Sorry, quoted this ages ago.

Quote

 

Lots of fans say “how could Stan not see this”? But how much of this is because he needed a friend? He’s a workaholic who got divorced during this show. Maybe he needed Philip.

I take issue with how could Stan not see this. How could Stan not see what? The audience is watching everything from behind closed doors. They’re watching the Jenningses at home and in their basement and in their car doing all these things. All Stan sees is a neighbor across the street inviting him over for a beer. The only thing he can point to is that they left at odd hours. But so did Stan. I don’t know how many times Stan just happened to be looking out the window and saw Philip and Elizabeth leave at midnight or one in the morning. I totally understand that you’re watching it on TV and [going] “Wait a minute! They’re right next door and they’re arguing about Mother Russia!” [But] they have two normal American children and they live a normal American life. They share Thanksgiving and family holidays and the occasional beer and some racquetball — I just don’t know what there was for Stan to see.

 

http://variety.com/2018/tv/features/the-americans-penultimate-episode-noah-emmerich-interview-final-season-1202823671/

I agree with that quote up there.
 

Quote

 

To Philip’s credit, he and Chris got in a scuffle when they both were outside Martha’s apartment. It wasn’t premeditated.

This is because we love these characters and they’re portrayed so beautifully by such amazing actors, but the reality is that they’re cold-blooded killers that have decimated a large percentage of the American population in the name of [Mother Russia]. I’m happy that you’re defending Philip, who has murdered a perfectly innocent FBI agent who has given his life to protecting the country. It speaks well to the writers and to Matthew Rhys’ performance that you’re defending the murder of Amador.

 

!  Nice one Noah!  Or Stan...

OK, one more, but the whole interview is very cool.
 

Quote

 

How does that feel to you that I’m doing this? In all normal scenarios, Stan is the hero.

I think that’s the beauty of the show. It’s not about good guys versus bad guys, it’s about people. In the real world, every bad guy has a mother and a father and potentially children. There’s no such thing as a bad guy from one [person’s] point of view. People do bad things, but what makes us good or bad? Where humanity ends is a territory this show has explored. We all have those capabilities. I don’t mean to be naïve, but it forces us to look at the show with a greater complexity and understanding.

 

[sistermagpie]

I'm glad to hear him say "not see what?" because I honestly never know what people are talking about when they say Stan has missed "clues" or whatever. There's not really been anything for him to see. This isn't even Breaking Bad where the guy's a known chemist.

He's being too nice about Amador, though. The dude was abusing his power as an FBI agent to stalk his girlfriend and harass her new boyfriend. The fact that the boyfriend turned out to not be easily intimidated was unfortunate, but it doesn't make Amador heroic.

[Ellaria]

28 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I'm glad to hear him say "not see what?" because I honestly never know what people are talking about when they say Stan has missed "clues" or whatever.

Perhaps some say that Stan missed clues because that's what was expected. People are filling in the gaps created by a "less than great" character arc. I don't want to rehash the entire Stan debate but I'm not at all surprised by those reactions.

And frankly, everyone is entitled to view this show from their own perspective.

[SunnyBeBe]

Right, plus, as an FBI agent, it's Stan's duty to be sure of the character of his associates.  So, whatever his excuses are, he's not followed through enough. I won't second guess him, but, I don't think he was written to have great instincts, not really.  There's that old story of his undercover days, but, I never bought it.  I just pretend that never happened. 

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Perhaps some say that Stan missed clues because that's what was expected. People are filling in the gaps created by a "less than great" character arc. I don't want to rehash the entire Stan debate but I'm not at all surprised by those reactions.

And frankly, everyone is entitled to view this show from their own perspective.

Definitely--I basically proved that when I heartily disagreed about Amador! I was just talking about specific things that people seem to refer to when they say that Stan's missed stuff and it really does seem like what you said, that they're filling in gaps that aren't there. Because if you really try to point out a thing that happened that Stan saw and didn't understand it's never really that obvious. In fact he has at least been observant enough to notice things like when Paige looks unhappy--that'll probably make sense to him now that he has a theory. But for instance it's not like he knew Elizabeth broke her tooth and didn't connect it to their manhunt. He never knew she had a broken tooth.

I do think there's times where people can look at stuff Stan is doing and feel like he's a fool and those have been gone over, but that, imo, is a different than pointing to a scene where Philip's doing a spy thing and Stan sees it but somehow doesn't get it. Stan's had a whole career on the show that didn't involve the Jennings and that's judged on its own--he didn't know that Nina was playing him, for instance.

[Ellaria]

15 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

In fact he has at least been observant enough to notice things like when Paige looks unhappy--that'll probably make sense to him now that he has a theory. But for instance it's not like he knew Elizabeth broke her tooth and didn't connect it to their manhunt. He never knew she had a broken tooth.

Stan is observant. As you said, he noticed that something was off with Paige. He also connected with Henry. Maybe we should have seen more of Stan's softer skills like his ability to connect with people. However, he could not observe things that weren't...well, observable. 

Upthread - I think - there were comparisons between Stan and Hank from Breaking Bad. They are worthy comparisons because their character arcs are similar, to a point. I wish that Stan had been given his "Leaves of Grass" moment earlier. I wish that we could see him with more time to process what he suspects.

[Plums]

man, I've been rewatching, and Stan would have had Phil and Liz dead to rights in season 1 if he hadn't blabbed to Nina. That's the sort of thing he should be kicking himself for, not for missing any clue there might have been with the Jennings family. But he's probably never going to know she was a triple agent. I really forgot just how much of a human disaster Stan was in the first half of this show. 

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

e's being too nice about Amador, though. The dude was abusing his power as an FBI agent to stalk his girlfriend and harass her new boyfriend. The fact that the boyfriend turned out to not be easily intimidated was unfortunate, but it doesn't make Amador heroic.

I thought the same thing when I read that interview! It's kind of funny to me that the FBI thinks the KGB is just this mustache twirling evil organization out killing their agents because Evil. And Amador died because he was stalking Martha and pulled a blade on her new boyfriend, and Gaad impaled himself through a glass door because he was afraid of a team discreetly fishing to recruit him as a source when they hadn't threatened him at all. I mean, yeah they looked like a goon squad, but they were plainly not trying to intimidate him at all. 

[sistermagpie]

15 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Stan is observant. As you said, he noticed that something was off with Paige. He also connected with Henry. Maybe we should have seen more of Stan's softer skills like his ability to connect with people. However, he could not observe things that weren't...well, observable. 

Exactly. Stan is observant. He wasn't, imo, missing things about the Jennings because they weren't doing stuff for him to miss. It's not like they were always showing up and running into him on stakeouts involving Illegals or whatever. The show avoided that by having Stan often dealing with totally different spies and what they were doing instead of the Jennings capers.

3 minutes ago, Plums said:

I mean, yeah they looked like a goon squad, but they were plainly not trying to intimidate him at all. 

I will always love the guy saying, "Izvinite! Izvinite!" (not sure how to spell that) as Stan died. Sorrysorrysorrysorry!

[Plums]

It's interesting to me, how extensive and complete a psychological profile the KGB must have on Stan by this point. They have the files from Nina and the years of observing him the Jennings have reported. Given that, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Renee is a honeypot that's been perfectly designed for him, and the whole relationship being a long con to get her into the FBI. After all, by the time she enters the picture, the KGB no longer has any bugs or assets giving them information, and you know they'd want to replace all that. 

I forgot just how suspicious the feds were of Stan after the bug was found in Gaad's office. They knew he could have been compromised by Nina, and the only reason he wasn't fired for pursuing the plot with Oleg on his own was because the Deputy AG liked that his methods got results. And then Stan got on his bad side by literally blackmailing the organization into leaving Oleg alone. There is totally precedent for the higher ups in the Justice Department thinking Stan could be compromised. If he lets the Jennings escape in the series finale, I could see him getting arrested. Hell, I could see them thinking he colluded with them all along. 

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Plums said:

It's interesting to me, how extensive and complete a psychological profile the KGB must have on Stan by this point. They have the files from Nina and the years of observing him the Jennings have reported. Given that, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Renee is a honeypot that's been perfectly designed for him, and the whole relationship being a long con to get her into the FBI. After all, by the time she enters the picture, the KGB no longer has any bugs or assets giving them information, and you know they'd want to replace all that. 

I don't know...that seems convoluted even by Centre standards. Why not just get a more appropriate (younger) turncoat to apply for a job in HR? Renee would have to be an American, after all, because if she's Russian she wouldn't pass the background check--that's the type of thing Paige was supposed to do. Marrying an FBI agent when you're in your 40s isn't exactly a normal path to an FBI job. Martha seems to have gotten one no problem just by being a good secretary. And Martha was in counterintelligence.

[Plums]

not any more convoluted than spying on the FBI by long conning and marrying a secretary, which is a major reason why Philip suspected her. She doesn't have to be a second gen spy either. we've met plenty of willing and eager American KGB assets. Just saying it's not unrealistic at all. 

[Umbelina]

Quote

 

It’s no mistake that Aderholt and Andrei’s conversation happens right before the money scene in “START,” an 11-plus-minute exchange between Stan and the Jennings spies that’s long enough to span from one commercial break to the next. Because the biggest dramatic hurdle showrunners (and writers) Joe Weisberg and Joel Fields have to leap is convincing us that Stan will show mercy and let Philip, Elizabeth, and Paige drive off into the night. Before watching the finale, in a back-and-forth on Twitter with fellow critics and Americans enthusiasts Tara Ariano of Previously TV and Vulture’s Kathryn VanArendonk, I joked that I “want[ed] everyone to explain that it was all just a big misunderstanding.” That’s more or less what happens in “START,” which is perhaps the least tragic ending for a series that made tragedy inevitable. We’ve gotten to know these characters so well over the course of six seasons that we can comprehend actions that would otherwise seem abhorrent and inexplicable. So it makes sense that Stan, who’s known the Jennings family for years — and who considers Philip his best friend — might be capable of seeing them on a human level, despite the lies that have made a fool of him and the losses that have been absorbed by the FBI’s counterintelligence division.

Still, it takes some doing. Stan’s Thanksgiving speech isn’t far back in the rearview, after all, and his interest in understanding the nuances of the conflict within Soviet factions over Gorbachev is approximately nil. He believes in the law, and he’s been witness to many deaths for which Philip and Elizabeth have been responsible, most recently the agents in Chicago and Sofia and Gennadi, informants he’d worked hard to protect. So for him to let them go requires him to stand face to face with Philip— Elizabeth and Paige, too, but especially Philip—and believe that he’s telling the truth, at long last, about who he really is. And Matthew Rhys nails the moment: Philip is a practiced liar, with all the motivation in the world to talk his way out of this situation, but Rhys’ vulnerability and sincerity in the moment is heartbreaking to witness. When Stan tells him that he’s turned his life into a joke, Philip responds, “You were my only friend, in my whole shitty life. All these years, my life was the joke, not yours.”

 

The Americans Series-Finale Recap: With or Without You By Scott Tobias

I agree with Scott Tobias, they earned that moment, and it's kind of incredible that they allowed it to happen, rather than the standard shoot out or arrests, or worse, not letting the confrontation/resolution happen between Stan and Philip.

[Umbelina]

[scartact]

I've never thought too intently about who Stan is, but I've been wondering about whether or not Stan is moving to willful ignorance in order to kinda sorta accept that Phil and Liz don't kill people (the final MAJOR lie they tell Stan), or if he's just so incredibly shocked and overwhelmed that his best friend and his best friend's family (who, for all intents and purposes became Stan's own family too) are spies, that he can barely process All. The. Truth.

Anyway, when Stan brokenly tells Philip, "You were my best friend," with such devastation, I shattered for Stan. He loves(/d) them so much. Part of me does think he has the most tragic ending here.

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, scartact said:

I've never thought too intently about who Stan is, but I've been wondering about whether or not Stan is moving to willful ignorance in order to kinda sorta accept that Phil and Liz don't kill people (the final MAJOR lie they tell Stan), or if he's just so incredibly shocked and overwhelmed that his best friend and his best friend's family (who, for all intents and purposes became Stan's own family too) are spies, that he can barely process All. The. Truth.

I didn't think there was any reason for either Stan or Paige to believe them. They just instinctively lie about it. Stan was the one telling them about all the murders and he claimed he knew Philip knew about the Teacups. I think Stan took it as a given that they'd killed people. He let them go anyway and didn't get into exactly who he'd killed.

[Umbelina]

I wonder what Stan will do now.

He has a few problems on his plate.

Will he confess that he let them go?  Will he tell Paige to cut a deal so the investigation into her would be less hostile, and not reveal that he let them all go?  Will he give the FBI a head's up that his wife may be KGB?  Will he just resign?  Will he be honest, or live a lie for the rest of his life?

He's fucked.

[sistermagpie]

Talking about the garage scene in the finale I was thinking of how while I understand in a lot of ways what was supposed to be going on, it didn't actually work for me emotionally at all. Ultimately I really didn't buy Stan doing what he did.

I think part of the problem is that if this was supposed to always be their endgame, which I believe it basically was, they should have put more into Stan/Philip. Make him another Martha in a way--even if Philip is genuinely his friend. I just can barely think of any very memorable scenes between the two men. In most of them Stan just talks at Philip and Philip mirrors back whatever Stan wants to hear. Which is fine--Philip is always spying. But it maybe would have been even better if we could see him doing that more aggressively. Like really helping Stan through stuff the way he did with Kimmy, for instance.

Also more scenes where Philip is opening up to Stan even if he's doing it undercover. There just wasn't a lot of that at all. It often felt to me like Philip was always like the guy in the motel room in S1 where he was bemused at Stan showing up and rambling to him and nervous because he was the bad guy and covering himself.

Jon Le Carre loves this kind of thing, where men have these deep quasi homoerotic attachments that make them commit treason. (He's terrible with female characters imo so the men can almost only bond with each other.) This is standard to this genre. But none of Stan or Philip's conversations seem to get below the mundane surface--at least on Philip's side. Stan sometimes blurts out that he's having an affair or whatever but Philip always seems to greet him with that hearty fake "Hey, neighbor!" that he had at the beginning. So it seems odd to me that Stan's supposed to be so attached to him. It honestly seems like Philip's confession about the business and thanking Stan for...whatever...is the first time Stan's ever gotten anything back from Philip at all.

Stan's relationship with Henry is more developed--though that really doesn't help overall. Stan doesn't need a relationship to the kid to want to look out for him and it just makes his relationship with Philip more bland by contrast because Philip's never seems relaxed around Stan like Henry does. I get that Philip could very easily be a friend Stan likes as a good listener so he doesn't realize how little Philip reveals about himself but that kind of led to me feeling like Philip could almost have been anybody. They didn't really use the situation--where Philip is actually much more understanding and like Stan than Stan knows so that's why they can really connect. It felt like Stan only ever really did ever know "Philip Jennings"--the guy who didn't exist, so he honestly wouldn't be able to feel a connection to the guy he finally knows he is even as Martha was able to make that leap.

Henry, at least, presumably had much more interaction with Philip so would have tons of things he'd observed without realizing it over the years. All of which took place offscreen so we just have to imagine it. They kind of only used S1 and S6 to try to establish that Henry and Philip were actually quite close. In 2018 people don't just assume that someone being a  parent means they have that relationship to their kid so all the phone calls in the world weren't enough to make that relationship exist. Stan's his father because they had scenes together where they talked like friends.

[SusanSunflower]

I was thinking about the "If you hadn't left EST, you'd know what to do line"  swiftly followed by the kick-to-the-guts line about Renee (neither of which seem to have really made sense or worked either with Stan or the audience)  -- however -- when Phillip met Stan he was married to the wonderful Sandra who had gotten involved in "personal growth" and specifically EST both when she was a grass-widow to Stan being undercover and after when Stan came home from the war and they couldn't reconnect as they had before -- as a matter of martial emotional intimacy.   Phillip tagged along to EST and found something of value (having similar emotional distance issues with Elizabeth) and Phillip and Sandra became good emotionally intimate friends.  Stan walked away muttering, abandoning his marriage.  Sandra met "someone else" and decamped shortly thereafter.   I suspect Phillip still thinks Stan's was/is an idiot to let Sandra leave .... to now be married to the questionably authentic Renee.  If Stan had worked harder with EST, if he had emotionally recommitted to Sandra, would he ever "wonder" about (too perfect) Renee?  

I don't have an answer but it's almost like a knife to the gut to bring up (without mentioning) Stan's failed marriage to the wonderful Sandra who largely alone raised their wonderfully well adjusted son and who was responsible for their (too rare) successful and amicable divorce.  (Matthew's equanimity and compassion for both parents seems special to me) I may be out in left field, but I'd love to know more from the writers about those two final gut-punches ... a shout-out to Sandra by Phillip made sense to me. 

Edited June 2, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[hellmouse]

One thing that occurred to me thinking about the scene in the garage is that once again, Stan is faced with Russians he cares about who need his help. I could see the weight of those memories interfering with his judgment, particularly after Philip says that he doesn't know what will happen to them in Russia. After all, he promised to take care of Nina and she ended up dead in Russia. He did not betray his country, but he had promised her protection and did not deliver it. He failed and she died. Could he have done more? Could he do something now, for these people standing in front of him who he loves even more than he loved Nina?

Oleg, someone who had formed a bond with and does respect, is now sitting in a jail cell because of the same thing Philip is talking about. So a little bit of his respect for Oleg is conferred upon Philip once he associates the two with each other. 

Sofia & Gennadi are the most recent Russians who Stan tried to help, and they were murdered. But he saw Philip's reaction, which didn't appear to be the guilt of someone who had committed the murders but the shock of someone aware of how they might happened. He doesn't seem to consider that Elizabeth murdered them. So it's possible that he might think "Philip and Elizabeth know about these murders but maybe they are not the ones who actually did it". He also is hearing from Philip that Stan was his only friend, which is exactly what Gennadi felt as well. 

I'm not saying all of this is sufficient to explain his actions. But for me, it helps explain the emotional strain he is under, and how that could contribute to an almost numb, exhausted acceptance that he's going to let this thing happen. The alternative would require an emotional strength that he just doesn't have at the moment. Arresting them would certainly require shooting them. Can he shoot them? Is it worth it? IMO the stakes are higher for Philip & Elizabeth (and Paige) - they must escape or die- than they are for Stan, so it makes sense that he is the one who gives. He can see a way to not arrest them that in the moment is emotionally more tolerable than the alternative. 

[sistermagpie]

27 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

If Stan had worked harder with EST, if he had emotionally recommitted to Sandra, would he ever "wonder" about (too perfect) Renee?  

You know, I think they should have done more with this. Because it's just so true. Renee seems so fake and Stan rejected EST or anything like it.

The timeline that I remember is that Sandra leaves Stan for someone else. She's already been doing EST--she met the guy in EST. So Stan goes to EST, but only in a superficial attempt to get Sandra back. It's like his idea for a vacation. It's not a real attempt to connect or change so Sandra doesn't buy it.

Philip goes back to EST and meets Sandra there. He and Elizabeth are actually in a great place when he goes--it doesn't seem to be about her so much as him connecting with himself, which iirc is a bit what he and Sandra talk about. They're at a sex-focused seminar but it's not really about sex, it's not a problem in their relationships. It's that they get that they need to work on something in themselves even while in the relationship. Sandra I think even admits that it was probably a bad idea to move in with some other guy rather than being on her own so she's still working on herself with the new guy.

Stan never really does any work on himself. He doesn't work through his issues with Matthew, he's just happy to never really look too closely at it. With Henry he doesn't have to look closely at anything.

Then he marries this woman that to the audience seems like a total fraud--to Philip too. It reminds me of what Matt Weiner said about Don's marriage to Megan on Mad Men--"They're like one person. And that person is Don." Stan doesn't marry a woman that has interests or habits or opinions that clash with his. She likes what he likes. She never seems to really complain. He makes a joke about her complaining if he's home late for dinner but later that really doesn't seem to be an issue.

It's hard not to see Stan's constant choices to never look at himself as leaving himself open as an easy mark for spies. His closest relationships, besides Aderholdt, are with people who never challenge him at all. Renee doesn't (spy). Philip doesn't (spy). Henry doesn't (young man who isn't his son).

[Erin9]

I think they could have done a better job with Stan/Philip over the years and also Henry/Philip. But- it still worked for me. 

The thing with Stan is- he didn’t confide in many people. He confided in Philip. He trusted Philip with intimate details of his life. He couldn’t talk to Sandra. Or anyone. He could talk to Philip.

Philip didn’t confide much in him. A little here and there about arguing with Elizabeth about the kids or business difficulties. But Stan took that to mean he didn’t have problems. He said as much once- I think relating to work. He thought Philip mostly had a perfect, easy, uncomplicated life. 

But- Stan chose him to talk to. Stan got a lot from Philip just by him being there. Something about Philip made him confide in him. Quite possibly the fact that on some level he knew Philip understood more than he let on was part of it. Philip is also the kind of person people talk to. He has that gift- or curse. Kimmie, Martha all saw something in him and they trusted that. 

 He told Philip he was having an affair. Talked about Amador’s death and how hard it was. Talks about struggling to get over Sandra and move on. And Philip encourages him to move on. (Bet he regretted that advice when Renee came along.) Confronts Philip about his betrayal regarding Philip seeing Sandra- guy went nuclear on Philip just for that. Goes to Philip to talk about the Teacups couple. All those times Stan hung out with the Jennings because he had no place to go. All those games of racquetball and beer runs. They were family to him. Especially Philip. 

What did Stan mean to Philip? A harder question because Philip was careful with him and knew he was both a friend and a threat. But- I think he liked having someone to play sports with, have a drink with, just hang with. Do NORMAL guy things with. He must have liked that. Stan was all he had in that regard. Just having someone outside his family that he could spend time with must have been nice. Generally speaking- Philip wasn’t working Stan. Not like any of his other long term cons. Look at how Elizabeth liked Young Hee- the only friend she ever had. 

They screwed up in S5 by not doing much with Stan period beyond his burnout and Renee.  He should have seen Philip more. 

As for Stan/Henry, it was fairly superficial to me. They talked like buddies. There was nothing parental there. Nothing significant was really said until their talk in the car when Henry blew off steam.  I just don’t see anything else. 

I think they could have and should have done more with Henry and Philip. But- I walked out of that episode knowing Henry was going to miss those phone calls he took for granted.  He KNEW he’d talk to his dad (or see him?) next week. And that is gone. Henry was in that way a typical teen- he thought he’d have more time. Parents aren’t that interesting- especially his. His parents were gone a lot, but they weren’t GONE either. 

Another key thing I got from those calls- Philip knew what was going on in Henry’s life. We heard that he did. He wasn’t Elizabeth who sadly and clearly had no clue about anything. You also know Henry is going to miss seeing his dad at his games. Miss watching hockey with him or playing in the driveway- which we saw in S4. One thing Henry does know and did acknowledge: Philip made an effort to bond with him, be part of life. 

Edited June 2, 2018 by Erin9

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

The thing with Stan is- he didn’t confide in many people. He confided in Philip. He trusted Philip with intimate details of his life. He couldn’t talk to Sandra. Or anyone. He could talk to Philip.

But- Stan chose him to talk to. Stan got a lot from Philip just by him being there. Something about Philip made him confide in him. Quite possibly the fact that on some level he knew Philip understood more than he let on was part of it. Philip is also the kind of person people talk to. He has that gift- or curse. Kimmie, Martha all saw something in him and they trusted that.

Definitely. I totally see Stan doing that. I just wish they'd thought about ways to show that Philip really was giving him something back that made this natural. Like with Martha and Kimmy he's so good at that, giving advice that's often clearly good for them. I wish they'd done that with Stan. They do it in a superficial way with Philip giving him general support--and they do it behind Stan's back when Philip basically engineers Matthew's return to his life. I just wish they'd thought of their scenes that way because I think that would have led into the finale with it being obvious how hard this would be for Stan.

 

6 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

As for Stan/Henry, it was fairly superficial to me. They talked like buddies. There was nothing parental there. Nothing significant was really said until their talk in the car when Henry blew off steam.  I just don’t see anything else. 

 

Agreed here as well. I think there's just a new way of judging parents on tv now that's very unrealistic. It makes being a parent into being a 7th grader trying to get in with the popular crowd. You're supposed to be an adult but also the "best friend." If the kid's interested in another teenager more than you or certainly another adult you've lost your spot. Where as in the past you would just have to say that Philip was Henry's father and Stan was Matthew's father and that would tell everyone they had an important relationship. One that isn't supplanted by a fun uncle figure. Or substituted with it. Even if the relationship was full of conflict. Your dad isn't supposed to be your friend.

It also seems interesting to me that there seems to be a false idea--one that the family uses in the show with Stan as well to influence him--to regress Henry to a child to give Stan a responsibility. Henry's more independent than Paige. He actually is already living on his own like his parents were at his age. He's never gone looking for guardian like Paige did and really still does. He's got multiple adults in his life that have helped him out in different ways and with whom he's clearly able to talk to about his needs. He doesn't run to Stan with his problems or even his dad's problems--he talked to a friend's dad about that. It would, imo, be quite difficult for Henry to be a son in a new family even if his parents had just died in a non-betraying way. Not to mention he's not Stan's son and never will be--when the chips are down of course Stan still has a son, Matthew.

[Erin9]

I know what you’re saying about Stan getting advice from Philip. The main thing I recall is Philip encouraging him not to wallow about Sandra, to move on. He did need to do that. Not much other advice off the top of my head. But I could be forgetting. 

I think maybe Philip represented something normal to Stan. I think while Stan may have sensed Philip understood him better than he let on, I think he also liked having a friend who was not in the FBI. Normal job, wife, kids....Stan wanted a normal family life and he couldn’t pull it together to hang onto his. Cue his nice neighbor Philip and his. 

And Stan represented something normal to Philip: In their messed up worlds, here was someone they could just be with. Play sports. Eat pizza. Drink beer. Must have been nice. Stan got the added bonus of sensing he could confide in Philip. That he could trust him. And Philip did trust in Stan. He trusted him with his kids. I think there was a certain understanding there. 

[Chaos Theory]

I think they did an awesome job with Stan and Philip.   Philip was there for Stan during the breakup of his marriage and through everything else in his life.  He was the emotional center of everything for him.   The Jennings became where Stan went when he needed to just decompress.  Where he went when he was lonely.  Or even just didn’t want to eat alone that night.   I could buy him being deeply hurt but also deeply confused when he found out Philip had been deceiving him.  In that moment he let his friend walk away.   He might have thought about it later but in that moment all he saw was his very best friend.  

That being said if Stan runs into Philip again,  If P&E didn’t actually run to the Soviet Union and instead stayed in the US I have no doubt he would have done his job.   It was just that moment he let friendship get the better of him. 

Edited June 2, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[SusanSunflower]

Stan became an afterthought in the last two seasons, mini-me Paige having taken center stage, irrc, so the affection and sentimentality of the "bond" rings plot-convenient / manipulative / fan service rather than actual ....  queue Springsteen on YouTube (official video) singing "Glory Days" .... when he (and we) were  impossibly young. 

Edited June 2, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Erin9]

One other thing on Philip and Stan. I remember the first time they played racquetball, they had some light hearted banter about winning, what it takes to win. Stan then leaves for work. And Philip- in a very serious, rather dark tone- talks about how he’ll win any way he can. He very much saw Stan only as an enemy to be watched at the time.

How things changed over the years. It was gradual, it wasn’t a light bulb moment- not that I can recall anyway. But it happened. 

[CrashTextDummie]

I love the way Noah puts his thoughts on the garage scene in the interview posted up-thread:

Quote

"What he does is what he's able to do, and what he doesn't do is what he's unable to do."

That perfectly matches my own read on the scene. Stan was never going to shoot Philip or any of the Jenningses. The only way Stan ever catches them is if they actively surrender to him. It's reflective of the imbalance in the relationship (that the Jenningses knew the true nature of it all along while Stan didn't) that Philip ultimately gets to decide how that final confrontation ends.

It always felt to me like Stan handled his affairs as an FBI agent differently from how he handled his home life. At home, he wasn't "Stan Beeman, FBI Agent". And we have clear precedent that when the personal and professional do bleed together (i.e. the Nina situation), it's not "Stan Beeman, FBI Agent" that gets to make the decisions. Stan wasn't the kind of man that upon learning his best friend was a Russian spy all along could just throw a switch in his head and now see that man as the enemy. The way he tried to protect Oleg and refused to exploit the rapport he had with him further established that even on the job, his actions were governed by principles and morality. He was far from a ruthless automaton, which at times helped or hindered his effectiveness as an agent.

It's clear to me that Stan didn't want to let the Jenningses go. But I also don't think he was at the garage to arrest or stop them. If that were the case, he wouldn't have gone there alone. What he was there for was the truth. "You made my life a joke" is what he tells Philip. That is such an earth-shattering, devastating sentiment. He needed confirmation. The person who showed up in that garage was not "Stan Beeman, FBI agent", it was Stan Beeman, the man. People have speculated what his future in the FBI would look like, but this whole situation cuts much deeper and takes on a existential dimension.

I thought it was made pretty explicit that Stan didn't trust anything he was told in that garage. It was clear to me that he knew they killed people. In that vein, I don't think Philip convinced him to let them go, per se. They simply forced his hand by refusing to get on the ground and surrender. Stan didn't do what he was unable to do. There is so much you can interpret into the situation and so many things are left not spelled out. But that simple truth I thought was absolutely perfectly in line with what we learned about Stan, and is enough to make the entire scene work. He was never going to shot Philip. The opposite holds true as well, btw. Elizabeth would have totally killed Stan though if Philip hadn't managed to defuse the situation.

As an aside, I do think the relationship between Stan and the Jennings kids was established well enough and to me was completely believable. At times, it felt like they practically lived at Stan's place. The show didn't spend too much time on this (although I do remember quite a few Stan/Henry scenes), but I thought it came through strongly that the relationship Stan had with the kids went way beyond just being a good neighbor.

[sistermagpie]

17 minutes ago, CrashTextDummie said:

As an aside, I do think the relationship between Stan and the Jennings kids was established well enough and to me was completely believable. At times, it felt like they practically lived at Stan's place. The show didn't spend too much time on this (although I do remember quite a few Stan/Henry scenes), but I thought it came through strongly that the relationship Stan had with the kids went way beyond just being a good neighbor.

He wasn't just a neighbor but the kids really didn't live at his house any more than he lived at theirs. He was over at the house a lot, they could eventually go to his house for dinner when he was back on his feet after the divorce. I had a family like that next door when I was a kid. Certainly more than just neighbors, I spent tons of time at their house (I think far more time than the Jenningses spent at Stan's because Stan had the same brutal schedule as the Jenningses' and his son wasn't there all the time), but I wasn't "living there" in the sense that they had assumed any duties my parents should have had. The kids were often  there when Stan wasn't because they were friends with Matthew and they could hang out in the empty house.

Henry had a special relationship to him as a friend the way a boy can be friends with a man but Paige never much had any special relationship with him at all. Their biggest connection was when Stan harbored dreams of becoming actual family if Paige and Matthew got married. But it was Matthew with whom Stan shared his real life--that's why he was the one that knew all about Renee.

Stan was like family, but I think Henry nailed it completely when he said he was Uncle Stan. He was very special because he was literally the only other adult who was a constant in their lives and approved of and friends with their parents.

Edited June 3, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Stan became an afterthought in the last two seasons, mini-me Paige having taken center stage, irrc, so the affection and sentimentality of the "bond" rings plot-convenient / manipulative / fan service rather than actual ....  queue Springsteen on YouTube (official video) singing "Glory Days" .... when he (and we) were  impossibly young. 

 

Spot on.

Could this ending have been much more believable?  Absolutely!

All the writers really had to do is two things:

1. Keep the Stan and Philip relationship going for the past two seasons.  Instead, build on that, or at the very least continue it as it had been before.  Instead we get the cheesy with no payoff "is Renee KGB" bullshit.  All Renee really did was keep Stan from Philip, which doesn't work if this is your planned finale.
2. Don't have Elizabeth go on an unprecedented killing spree!  She killed over 3 times as often in this shortened season than she did in any other season of the show.  10 kills in 10 episodes vs an average of 3 kills in 13 episodes. 

ABOVE ALL, don't have 3 FBI Officers killed right before the finale, if you want anyone to believe Stan would let them go.  Stan would NOT let that go unpunished.  Ever.  At all.  No cop would.

It's not about Stan killing them.  He could have disabled them by shooting Elizabeth and Philip in non life threatening areas.  Paige would have got on the ground after that, as ordered.  Stan could make SURE the message got to Gorbachev too.  The USA didn't want him to go down in a Coup by hard-liners either.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Umbelina

[Razzberry]

I don't even remember Stan's wife. I must have starting watching it right after she left him.  I'm looking forward to the binge, when the show was reportedly at its best.  It seems to me the writers/showrunners had mentally checked out a ways back and it wouldn't surprise me if their attentions are elsewhere.   

The acting is mostly stellar but Daniel Day Lewis couldn't sell me what they've tried to do.

I'm trying not be negative tho. ;)  Glad the group is receptive to all points of view.

[hellmouse]

5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It also seems interesting to me that there seems to be a false idea--one that the family uses in the show with Stan as well to influence him--to regress Henry to a child to give Stan a responsibility. Henry's more independent than Paige. He actually is already living on his own like his parents were at his age. He's never gone looking for guardian like Paige did and really still does.

I hadn't thought of it until I read this post, but I don't think Philip was going to ask Stan to take care of Henry. Philip knows that Henry is independent and self-sufficient for his age. It's Paige who is worried about Henry - IMO because she is envisioning him reacting the way she would. She is afraid of being alone., so she's afraid that her brother is going to feel alone. She blurts out "you have to take care of Henry" to Stan and Philip reacts like a great improviser, immediately building upon that and saying that Henry loves Stan and he should tell him the truth. I think he means that, but he's also using it to further achieve his goal of getting out of the garage alive and not arrested. If she hadn't said that, I don't think Philip would have asked Stan to look after Henry. 

It's just another emotional straw on the back of the camel that is Stan.

[duVerre]

2 hours ago, CrashTextDummie said:

I love the way Noah puts his thoughts on the garage scene in the interview posted up-thread: ["What he does is what he's able to do, and what he doesn't do is what he's unable to do."--added by DuVerre.]

 

The first time I joined an "Americans" thread was to complain that the writers, in Season 5, had seemingly lost interest in Stan. He'd been a confused and damaged man for four seasons--then suddenly, he was just dull as hell--out of counterintelligence, in love with his wife and apparently healed of all his trust and intimacy issues. Talk about giving an actor nothing to play. He may as well have been in a cereal commercial. Thank God they brought back the former Stan for season six, because he fascinated me and I thought Emmerich was terrific. Not showy, not ever, but the layers of intensity were always present, alive and clear.

The garage scene was titanic. I honestly think it's one of the greatest I've ever seen anywhere. I will watch it for years. 

I read somewhere that Stan has to go through all the stages of grief (denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance) in eleven minutes. I agree that he went through most of those, sometimes at once. And all of it was drenched in shock and awe. His emotions were reshuffled second by second, and all the time he was struggling to keep any kind of balance, to find a little piece of logic that would keep him afloat. Instead he just sank and sank right to the bottom. So I think Emmerich's quote is really perfect: Stan did what he could do, and nothing more. His world fell apart just as surely as the Jennings' world eventually did. He was emotionally paralyzed. Disabled.

2 hours ago, CrashTextDummie said:

It's clear to me that Stan didn't want to let the Jenningses go. But I also don't think he was at the garage to arrest or stop them. If that were the case, he wouldn't have gone there alone. What he was there for was the truth. "You made my life a joke" is what he tells Philip. That is such an earth-shattering, devastating sentiment. He needed confirmation. The person who showed up in that garage was not "Stan Beeman, FBI agent", it was Stan Beeman, the man. People have speculated what his future in the FBI would look like, but this whole situation cuts much deeper and takes on a existential dimension.

That's wonderfully said. He went into that garage as Stan Beeman the man. He needed to be given something real. And the "something real" (which may not have been totally truthful, and which he may not even totally believe) is his ruination. 

It was tragic, that scene.

Edited June 3, 2018 by duVerre

[Umbelina]

I really hope he gets an Emmy for that.

[duVerre]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

I really hope he gets an Emmy for that.

Eleven minutes, I think, would be too long to submit for an Emmy clip, and that could work against him. (Not that I really know--I'm guessing).

But oh yes, he deserves it. Or at least a nomination!

[Umbelina]

I don't think it's too long.  Emmy voters usually watch entire episodes that the actors/writers/directors, etc. submit.

[hellmouse]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I really hope he gets an Emmy for that.

Or at least a nomination! He really was remarkable.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

I hadn't thought of it until I read this post, but I don't think Philip was going to ask Stan to take care of Henry. Philip knows that Henry is independent and self-sufficient for his age. It's Paige who is worried about Henry - IMO because she is envisioning him reacting the way she would. She is afraid of being alone., so she's afraid that her brother is going to feel alone. She blurts out "you have to take care of Henry" to Stan and Philip reacts like a great improviser, immediately building upon that and saying that Henry loves Stan and he should tell him the truth. I think he means that, but he's also using it to further achieve his goal of getting out of the garage alive and not arrested. If she hadn't said that, I don't think Philip would have asked Stan to look after Henry. 

It's just another emotional straw on the back of the camel that is Stan.

Yes! Excellent point. Really, the whole idea was that he had a life they didn't want to ruin. If the issue was that he needed to be taken care of they would have taken him to Russia. Philip's goal in not even wanting to call him was to protect him from the Feds as much as he could so he'd be free.

In Philip's call to Henry--after they're with Stan--he's reiterating the reasons he's leaving him: So Henry can continue to be his own person. And he's telling him that his parents love him for that, that they're not rejecting him. These are things he needs to go forward as an adult. Elizabeth and Philip really don't have anxiety over Henry needing a parent at this point. They were both on their own by that age too. When they talk about the kids at the end they don't assure themselves that Stan will take care of them because you don't take care of grown people. That is, not in that total parental way.

It really is Paige, the one who's been seeking perfect parental figures forever, who thinks that's the thing Henry needs and can find in Stan. Paige is also the person who has no one--Henry has friends and probably teachers and coaches he likes too.

I'd love for NE to get nominated for this!

[Umbelina]

I decided to put this here, just to prove that Stan isn't the dumbest FBI agent around.  (I actually kind of love Stan.)

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/03/us/dancing-fbi-agent-gun-discharge/index.html?utm_content=2018-06-03T21%3A00%3A07&utm_medium=social&utm_source=fbCNN&utm_term=video