Elizabeth: The True Believer

qtpye · April 17, 2018

Quote

Yup, and I think that's common for immigrant cultures. There's times where the immigrant culture preserves things, even, that the main culture loses. Paige wasn't the type of first-gen kid who was raised with parents who tried to shield her from the culture of the new country. But she seems like she's well on her way to being the American tourist who shows up in a country for a week and thinks she's a local because she's Russian-American. As summed up in the European Vacation movie, where Chevy Chase looks out at the landscape with tears running down his face saying, "There it is, kids. My homeland." And the son says, "Dad, Grandma's from Cleveland."

It gets worse than that.

I once talked to a man who grew up in the United States and is from the same culture as my friend. He talked lovingly about how his grandmother would spend hours cooking a meal, then go off by herself and just eat a sandwich, only to come back to clean up after everyone. He was dead set on marrying a girl from the old country because they knew how to put the needs of the family first unlike selfish Amercian women and women of his culture that grew up in America.

Of course, I told this to a modern woman of the same country and asked if this was true. She looked at me as if I were crazy and asked what type of backward ass idiot was I speaking with.

That guy did marry a girl from the old country and bring her to the states. She left him for another man fairly early in their marriage.

I think some Immigrant cultures not just idealize an old way of life, but begin to romanticise many things that simply did not exist how they believed. Elizabeth can live in America and dream about the ideal society of the Soviet Union that only exists in her fantasies. Anything that bursts this bubble is disregarded as untrue. Unfortunately, the main source of cold water for her lofty ideals is often times her husband.

sistermagpie · April 17, 2018

14 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

yes, I've wondered how Paige would/will take it when she discovers that "quitting" is not really an option ... "what have you gotten me into?" and (broken record) that Henry (still, for now) has the freedom to do whatever he wants. I wonder if big sis is going to enlighten Henry out of spite ....

I had considered something like that in the past, where Paige might decide on her home that she needs to Henry for some reason. Though given the way the show has shaken out a side effect of the plot and Paige's obsessions makes it seem like she's living an only child fantasy now and loves Henry not knowing.

Although Elizabeth did tell Hans that he could help the Cause "in other ways" when he was seen by that other guy, so Paige should be able to not work for them. But at this point it's hard to see how that would work. I mean, Philip's been allowed to just keep his cover persona I assume to keep the whole thing stable for now. But it's obviously never occurred to Paige that once you commit treason you're kind of stuck. Just ask that "army guy" who just got blackmailed and murdered. She still retains her general feeling of being safe as an American.

1 minute ago, qtpye said:

That guy did marry a girl from the old country and bring her to the states. She left him for another man fairly early in their marriage.

Yay! I love a happy ending!

But yeah, I agree. That's going on big time with Elizabeth there. She's not only creating a view of Russia based on her childhood she's creating one based on all her values now. Like I still think it's funny that she claims to be so happy to be introducing Paige to "Russian culture" when the same woman sneeringly asks why anyone would waste their life on art. Tchaikovsky never did a damn thing for the Cause. I feel like that has to be part of the point behind her adamant "No one back home wants this either!" line. Practically every opinion she has now is projected on other people or denial. Things that don't match it barely exist.

She's always done this somewhat, though. I remember that flashback with Zhukov where Elizabeth's sneering over how Paige, at 3, has "play groups" instead of working like Elizabeth did and Zhukov's like "Um, playing is very important for children." Yes, Elizabeth, you played as a child.

Claudia's the same way, of course.

SusanSunflower · April 17, 2018

one of the commonalities of "the underwear bomber" and Nidal Hassan (of Fort Hood) was that they were unable to find properly devout and modest women to marry or even enter into courtship/dating relationship. All the women they met weren't interested in them at all. Omar Matten (Orlando) and I think the San Bernardino couple were arranged through matchmaker services. The stories of the european women to traveled to join Jihad in MENA was often one of disillusionment when they discovered they had entered into arranged marriages of servitude and abuse ... scary stuff....

Have Russian mail-order brides vanished as a comodity? Many of those marriages ended badly in "girls gone wild" divorces ...

Edited April 17, 2018 by SusanSunflower

Umbelina · April 17, 2018

5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It might be also interesting if Elizabeth finally admitted this was a bad idea. Then they could go back to just admitting that Paige's story is not a spy story. She's not some up-and-coming agent. Her story is the family story. She's trying to figure out who she is and she and Elizabeth need to figure out that she *isn't* Elizabeth and can still be her daughter without joining her quest, which Elizabeth's lying about already anyway.

They have time to establish something with Henry, at least. I will be disappointed if he finds out the truth without being able to work through it at all with his family, as realistic as that could be.

5 hours ago, Bannon said:

Having Elizabeth conclude that Paige is doomed to fail in this vocation, with resultant fallout with The Centre, is likely the best option. Let's hope for some competent storytelling.

5 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

yes, I've wondered how Paige would/will take it when she discovers that "quitting" is not really an option ... "what have you gotten me into?" and (broken record) that Henry (still, for now) has the freedom to do whatever he wants. I wonder if big sis is going to enlighten Henry out of spite ....

To all of these really, yes, Paige has no choice, and neither does Elizabeth.

If, for example, Claudia were to try to tell "Center" that Paige simply isn't cut out for this, they would just tell her to MAKE her "cut out for this."

I just don't think there is enough time left to do something like that though, but who knows? These writers, in the past, have jammed a LOT of story into one episode in the past.

I think the next episode will be very telling about the direction this is all going to go, because they really have to start wrapping it up soon. Only 7 episodes left, and such an interesting title for the second to last episode too.

"Mr. and Mrs. Teacup" Roxann DawsonPeter AckermanApril 18,
"The Great Patriotic War" Thomas SchlammeHilary BettisApril 25,
"Rififi" Kevin BrayStephen Schiff & Justin WeinbergerMay 2,
"Harvest" Stefan SchwartzSarah NolenMay 9,
"The Summit" SylvainWhiteJoshua BrandMay 16,
"Jennings, Elizabeth" Chris LongJoel Fields & Joe WeisbergMay 23,
"START" Chris LongJoel Fields & Joe WeisbergMay 30,

Also, showrunners wrote the last two episodes... (from wiki)

Bannon · April 17, 2018

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

To all of these really, yes, Paige has no choice, and neither does Elizabeth.

If, for example, Claudia were to try to tell "Center" that Paige simply isn't cut out for this, they would just tell her to MAKE her "cut out for this."

I just don't think there is enough time left to do something like that though, but who knows? These writers, in the past, have jammed a LOT of story into one episode in the past.

I think the next episode will be very telling about the direction this is all going to go, because they really have to start wrapping it up soon. Only 7 episodes left, and such an interesting title for the second to last episode too.

"Mr. and Mrs. Teacup" Roxann DawsonPeter AckermanApril 18,

"The Great Patriotic War" Thomas SchlammeHilary BettisApril 25,

"Rififi" Kevin BrayStephen Schiff & Justin WeinbergerMay 2,

"Harvest" Stefan SchwartzSarah NolenMay 9,

"The Summit" SylvainWhiteJoshua BrandMay 16,

"Jennings, Elizabeth" Chris LongJoel Fields & Joe WeisbergMay 23,

"START" Chris LongJoel Fields & Joe WeisbergMay 30,

Also, showrunners wrote the last two episodes... (from wiki)

It would appear that the title for the finale may indicate yet another huge time jump, to 1991, given that the START treaty was signed on July 31st of that year. The failed coup which signaled the final gasp of the Soviet Empire was a couple weeks later.

I'm not optimistic that they will handle another jump like that well.

Umbelina · April 17, 2018

19 minutes ago, Bannon said:

It would appear that the title for the finale may indicate yet another huge time jump, to 1991, given that the START treaty was signed on July 31st of that year. The failed coup which signaled the final gasp of the Soviet Empire was a couple weeks later.

I'm not optimistic that they will handle another jump like that well.

I'm hoping for a time jump at least until the USSR falls, but if we get one at all, I think it will be in a closing musical montage, not in actual show drama. I pretty much detailed my idea (which hasn't changed) about a possible ending in the "prediction the end" thread.

Quote

Negotiations turned towards the reduction of strategic weapons when the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty was signed in December of 1987.

Above from WIKI

The main body of the show could still take place in 1987. Start negotiations were on-going for a long time, until, as you point out, it was signed in 1991, after the Soviets agreed to let the USA keep Star Wars.

The title of the penultimate episode does make me wonder if Elizabeth dies then though, before a HUGE final episode.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Umbelina

sistermagpie · April 18, 2018

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I just don't think there is enough time left to do something like that though, but who knows? These writers, in the past, have jammed a LOT of story into one episode in the past.

They might not have to go that far, actually. If the upcoming series covers a time period that doesn't go that much past the summit we're working towards, the whole family could be taken out before anything would be done about that. But that wouldn't mean there couldn't still be a story of Elizabeth and Paige experiencing things that made them realize how not on the same page they were, you know? Elizabeth and Claudia might start to clash over it without Paige knowing. Maybe Claudia would suspect Elizabeth was "going soft" and falling under Philip's influence again or whatever.

No idea if any of that would happen, but just saying that since the characters don't know their time will soon be up they could be playing that out when the rug is pulled out from under all of them.

I really hope we don't get another huge time jump. I hate them in general and the show's never depended on the timeline of the Cold War in its entirety. I wouldn't want to basically have an episode devoted to re-introducing us to everyone's 1991 selves. Also it seems like often with these titles the words are just as if not more important than what they refer to--Strategic Arms Reduction has obvious meanings for interpersonal relationships too, and it even seems like December 1987 was an important step forward toward the actual treaty.

Umbelina · April 18, 2018

As I said, I think we may have a time jump, but only at the very end of the final show, in a musical montage. It could easily be done, and be very good, and the show likes those.

That penultimate episode title does give me pause though...

sistermagpie · April 18, 2018

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

That penultimate episode title does give me pause though...

It sounds to me like Elizabeth being outed. Like if somebody was looking up a death certificate for a social security number or a KGB file or some other research where this is the answer to "Who doesn't really exist? THIS WOMAN!"

Umbelina · April 18, 2018

The first thought that comes to me is an episode about her life and her death.

She could still be in the final episode, flashback style (with new and/or old flashbacks.)

Episode titles are deceiving though.

Erin9 · April 18, 2018

3 hours ago, Bannon said:

It would appear that the title for the finale may indicate yet another huge time jump, to 1991, given that the START treaty was signed on July 31st of that year. The failed coup which signaled the final gasp of the Soviet Empire was a couple weeks later.

I'm not optimistic that they will handle another jump like that well.

I’d wondered what START was supposed to stand for. Interesting.

Umbelina · April 18, 2018

It could have a double meaning as well. If Jennings, Elizabeth is on an official form as you speculated? She could die in the penultimate episode, and START could be both the treaty, and the others starting over?

Erin9 · April 18, 2018

39 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It could have a double meaning as well. If Jennings, Elizabeth is on an official form as you speculated? She could die in the penultimate episode, and START could be both the treaty, and the others starting over?

Yeah- I’d thought of start as possibly some kind of new beginning too- but hadn’t really thought through what that would mean in terms of the show exactly. It definitely could have a double meaning. Probably does.

“Jennings, Elizabeth” is so official, it’s the way we fill out forms about ourselves- or someone fills them out about us. It’s a VERY different feel than if they’d titled it Elizabeth Jennings. Maybe we’re way off, but that title is attention getting.

I hadn’t really thought about her dying before the last episode simply because I expect both leads to be in the final episode. But- there are a variety of ways that could happen and she’d still be a huge presence in the finale. It would have to be in a way that there were still bombshells dropping in the last episode though.

I could certainly see the ending of the penultimate episode being one where we’re all freaking out at the end.

qtpye · April 18, 2018

28 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Yeah- I’d thought of start as possibly some kind of new beginning too- but hadn’t really thought through what that would mean in terms of the show exactly. It definitely could have a double meaning. Probably does.

“Jennings, Elizabeth” is so official, it’s the way we fill out forms about ourselves- or someone fills them out about us. It’s a VERY different feel than if they’d titled it Elizabeth Jennings. Maybe we’re way off, but that title is attention getting.

I hadn’t really thought about her dying before the last episode simply because I expect both leads to be in the final episode. But- there are a variety of ways that could happen and she’d still be a huge presence in the finale. It would have to be in a way that there were still bombshells dropping in the last episode though.

I could certainly see the ending of the penultimate episode being one where we’re all freaking out at the end.

Perhaps E dies and Phillip is sent back to Russian (he leaves the children in America, Paige is an adult and they might time jump to make Henry one as well) and Phillip then starts a relationship with Martha?

Edited April 18, 2018 by qtpye

SusanSunflower · April 19, 2018

Jennings, Elizabeth sounds like a toe-tag to me or (prolly equally likely at this point) )a file folder label) ....

It's funny because my dislike of Elizabeth is because of her shallow shallow ideology -- a "communism" that doesn't respect human life and that treats everyone like "people of no importance" in futherance of a "cause" that should be idealistic (if you understand the basics of communism) but ends up being coldly calculating, not too far from Hitler's final "pragmatic" solution ...

Without ever much educating Paige about things like the origins of poverty or basic economics, much less the "collectivist" ideology (the group over the individual) that is part of why and how liberation theology came to co-exist and cooperate with the foundationally atheistic marxists in many countries. Neither Paige or Henry have a love for the poor and downtrodden or an anger at their plight, much less various historical alternatives -- such as European democratic socialism and the right of people (all people) to health care, and personal security, food and shelter, dignity, etc.

She avoids examining "what hath Marx wroth?" in the USSR, or Mao in China or Castro in Cuba or discussing the same with her kids. She uses her self-proclaimed ideological fervor like blinders to question -- as responsible adults should -- the life she leads and the consequences of her actions. She is a "zealot", passionate about the "cause" as a means of avoiding her life.

sistermagpie · April 20, 2018

From the Mr. and Mrs. Teacup thread...

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

However, the writers have always been willing to sacrifice her in order to make Phillip look nobler by comparison.

I don't think that's true at all. To me it comes back to how the characters have to be the characters they are. Philip isn't always nobler, but he's the one motivated by people. Elizabeth is an ideologue. She openly states that she thinks she should not question orders or hesitate to hurt or kill someone in the moment because that is betraying the greater good. To her, that's noble and plenty of people have applauded having a female character who does that. If she's consistent to her own beliefs, she's going to be the harsh one.

Philip plenty of times is simply seen as impotent or weak while Elizabeth is a badass. In fact, in many panel discussions the showrunners are all about how Elizabeth is incredibly strong and admirable. The show itself spent plenty of time trying to explain her to make her more sympathetic. Philip has the advantage that his position on things is generally seen as better for obvious reasons, but that's why Elizabeth doesn't need to be sacrificed to make him look noble. Her sincere belief in her cause is both the thing that makes her look bad and the thing that makes her the more dominant central character with the most agency.

Quote

In the first episode, E's rape becomes about Phillip. I hate this trope, it is not about the woman's emotional trauma, but the man avenging the woman as her knight in shining armor. The show was much better written then but Phillip has always been noble, self-sacrificing. and madly in love with Elizabeth. It is implied that P would have defected a long time ago if not for the love of this woman.

I strongly disagree with the idea that Elizabeth's rape ever became all about Philip at all, even when he killed him. First, the whole pilot is about Elizabeth's story with Timoshev. Philip has no idea who this guy is. It's important that Philip kill Timoshev so that Elizabeth can react to Philip killing Timoshev. The murder, imo, is played more like an impulse. Philip and Timoshev are facing each other with Elizabeth in between them, looking at us. She doesn't even react immediately, giving him a white knight moment. They get rid of the body together and then later Elizabeth makes a clear decision to reach out to him. It seemed to me the show was telling me there was a lot going on there for her.

The Timoshev story was not--couldn't be--about Elizabeth killing Timoshev because the story's about the part of Elizabeth's personality that's buried under the one she puts out to the world. She believes she should always be independent and not depend on anyone, believes that she's alone, believes that she overcame her troubles by becoming strong enough to kick anyone's ass. This is exactly what she tells Paige she did.

And she's right--she beats up Timoshev. She could easily have killed him. But she didn't because in that moment she felt like there was no point and that's very unusual for Elizabeth. She realizes that she's not going to feel this big triumph in killing him. The important thing about it isn't that he "saved" her or slayed a dragon she couldn't, it's that he places her above everything else. Nobody ever does that to Elizabeth. Her whole life is based around justifying that very fact--her mother sent her away, her mother doesn't mourn her father because he failed, the Centre approved of her rape. Elizabeth has to believe that this is the highest form of morality and she tries to practice it herself. But in that moment somebody put her personal pain above everything else and that meant something. It's the thing that made her risk a romance with Philip--more importantly, risk going after something she wanted even though she couldn't justify it by the Cause. In the garage she reaches the actual limit to her philosophy of only needing herself.

Since then Elizabeth's rape has come up several times, none of which had anything to do with Philip. That is Elizabeth's story from start to finish.

Elizabeth this season has become less nuanced, but it seems like the point is that it's the logical extreme conclusion of her beliefs disconnected from the other sides of herself. I'm not sure it's necessarily the story I'd most enjoy about her and I think doing it with a time jump is a cheat, but it doesn't seem like there's anything *that* out of character in Elizabeth's depression manifesting in exactly this way. She's doing what she's always done, but without the balance of the other part of her personality. And since she is the more active character (something she's often praised for) it's her choices that have mostly created the situation they're all in. Her soul is the one at stake this season, but it's not in danger if she's still in the place she was in in season 5.

Philip, too, has been severed from part of himself but it makes sense that he's more able to be aware of that and do something about it because Philip already spent several seasons brooding and even going to therapy in the form of EST. He's literally "been stuck" for years and now he's finally getting direction. Whether one considers his seasons full of brooding noble or not, they weren't helping much. This is the first time he's actually got a positive goal he can work towards.

Elizabeth, otoh, has always chosen to be "strong" by not looking at herself too closely. It's what made her the badass one, but it also makes her more brittle and in more extreme trouble now. But it seems like making her otherwise would be shying away from her character. Elizabeth without Philip, backed up by Claudia and living her dream of Paige being a spy with her...I don't see how that could ever result in a balanced Elizabeth. But it also makes sense for her character, especially at this time of her life when her kids are basically grown and even her Cause is crumbling.

But at the same time, it's not like Philip's retirement is the right way either, because he's spying now too. In working with Oleg he is acting on Elizabethan values.

Erin9 · April 20, 2018

@sistermagpie

That post was amazing, epic. I’ve generally felt Elizabeth is actually the more favored character. She gets to talk about everything. She drives nearly everything. To be fair, Philip’s pov is more easily understood, but hearing more about what he thinks, hearing more about his childhood would be nice.

IA with almost everything you wrote, though I’m not sure Philip is really embracing Elizabethan values working with Oleg. But maybe. Depending on how you define them. He’s spying on Elizabeth, and so arguably putting her/the marriage second, to pursue a goal/cause he believes is important.

But you could also say he’s putting his children ahead of her in pursuing this; he wants a better future for them, regardless of the consequences to him/her/them. He might say doing this puts everyone else first.

His goal is something easier to root for rather that the hardline POV Elizabeth is following. True enough. The fact that Philip is able to look at the situation in terms of what seems to be the best interests of Russia/the world helps too, rather than Elizabeth clinging to the way things have always been, whether it works or has been corrupted or not.

But, I would think that Philip may be saying to himself that this is helpful to Elizabeth since Oleg pointed out that extreme loyalty can be used. Elizabeth is not overly analytical or capable of lots of discernment. And she’s not in good shape to be developing that ability when she needs it most. It’s hard to know. It’s clear he agrees with Oleg’s POV. We know he’s thought that way for some time- the old ways don’t work. He recognizes it could be a worldwide disaster if the hardliners win- and a real loss for the motherland. What exactly he thinks about Elizabeth is debatable. He still loves her; I think that’s certain.

sistermagpie · April 20, 2018

12 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

IA with almost everything you wrote, though I’m not sure Philip is really embracing Elizabethan values working with Oleg. But maybe. Depending on how you define them. He’s spying on Elizabeth, and so arguably putting her/the marriage second, to pursue a goal/cause he believes is important.

But you could also say he’s putting his children ahead of her in pursuing this; he wants a better future for them, regardless of the consequences to him/her/them. He might say doing this puts everyone else first.

That's true, I hadn't thought about that. I think when I was framing it as Elizabeth's values I was thinking in a really literal way. That is: Elizabeth reported on Philip to the KGB; now Philip is reporting on her. And also if their choices at the end of S5 were retirement/turning your back on the wider world vs. devoting yourself to spying, Philip is *not* choosing to stay out of it.

Not that I think anyone would expect him too, but if you take Philip's choice at the end of S5 to represent a path of two extremes, one could think he was representing a life where you turn your back on the world and just focus on your family. But he and Elizabeth actually do still have a desire to help the world in common. Philip is willing to get involved in a very dangerous plot that puts him and his family at risk and he's doing it because he thinks it's important to the world and the future of his children as well. He can't stop caring about the world completely any more than she can stop caring about her family completely--even if it seems like they can do that.

But as in the past, Elizabeth sometimes has trouble understanding that someone can have the same values as her when it doesn't show itself the same way. She may think that if Philip can retire, he doesn't care. But of course that's not true.

And I do also agree that Philip is working for Elizabeth as well. I think he sees her as needing his help and he is trying to help and even save her in a fundamental way. Maybe he and Elizabeth are both right now hoping the different things they want don't have to come into conflict. Like Elizabeth thinks she can have a daughter and her Cause by working with Paige and doesn't want to think about how she might lose everything instead. Philip would like to believe that he can save Elizabeth and Russia and the world by joining this scheme, but of course Elizabeth might not see it that way.

Bannon · April 21, 2018

20 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

From the Mr. and Mrs. Teacup thread...

I don't think that's true at all. To me it comes back to how the characters have to be the characters they are. Philip isn't always nobler, but he's the one motivated by people. Elizabeth is an ideologue. She openly states that she thinks she should not question orders or hesitate to hurt or kill someone in the moment because that is betraying the greater good. To her, that's noble and plenty of people have applauded having a female character who does that. If she's consistent to her own beliefs, she's going to be the harsh one.

Philip plenty of times is simply seen as impotent or weak while Elizabeth is a badass. In fact, in many panel discussions the showrunners are all about how Elizabeth is incredibly strong and admirable. The show itself spent plenty of time trying to explain her to make her more sympathetic. Philip has the advantage that his position on things is generally seen as better for obvious reasons, but that's why Elizabeth doesn't need to be sacrificed to make him look noble. Her sincere belief in her cause is both the thing that makes her look bad and the thing that makes her the more dominant central character with the most agency.

I strongly disagree with the idea that Elizabeth's rape ever became all about Philip at all, even when he killed him. First, the whole pilot is about Elizabeth's story with Timoshev. Philip has no idea who this guy is. It's important that Philip kill Timoshev so that Elizabeth can react to Philip killing Timoshev. The murder, imo, is played more like an impulse. Philip and Timoshev are facing each other with Elizabeth in between them, looking at us. She doesn't even react immediately, giving him a white knight moment. They get rid of the body together and then later Elizabeth makes a clear decision to reach out to him. It seemed to me the show was telling me there was a lot going on there for her.

The Timoshev story was not--couldn't be--about Elizabeth killing Timoshev because the story's about the part of Elizabeth's personality that's buried under the one she puts out to the world. She believes she should always be independent and not depend on anyone, believes that she's alone, believes that she overcame her troubles by becoming strong enough to kick anyone's ass. This is exactly what she tells Paige she did.

And she's right--she beats up Timoshev. She could easily have killed him. But she didn't because in that moment she felt like there was no point and that's very unusual for Elizabeth. She realizes that she's not going to feel this big triumph in killing him. The important thing about it isn't that he "saved" her or slayed a dragon she couldn't, it's that he places her above everything else. Nobody ever does that to Elizabeth. Her whole life is based around justifying that very fact--her mother sent her away, her mother doesn't mourn her father because he failed, the Centre approved of her rape. Elizabeth has to believe that this is the highest form of morality and she tries to practice it herself. But in that moment somebody put her personal pain above everything else and that meant something. It's the thing that made her risk a romance with Philip--more importantly, risk going after something she wanted even though she couldn't justify it by the Cause. In the garage she reaches the actual limit to her philosophy of only needing herself.

Since then Elizabeth's rape has come up several times, none of which had anything to do with Philip. That is Elizabeth's story from start to finish.

Elizabeth this season has become less nuanced, but it seems like the point is that it's the logical extreme conclusion of her beliefs disconnected from the other sides of herself. I'm not sure it's necessarily the story I'd most enjoy about her and I think doing it with a time jump is a cheat, but it doesn't seem like there's anything *that* out of character in Elizabeth's depression manifesting in exactly this way. She's doing what she's always done, but without the balance of the other part of her personality. And since she is the more active character (something she's often praised for) it's her choices that have mostly created the situation they're all in. Her soul is the one at stake this season, but it's not in danger if she's still in the place she was in in season 5.

Philip, too, has been severed from part of himself but it makes sense that he's more able to be aware of that and do something about it because Philip already spent several seasons brooding and even going to therapy in the form of EST. He's literally "been stuck" for years and now he's finally getting direction. Whether one considers his seasons full of brooding noble or not, they weren't helping much. This is the first time he's actually got a positive goal he can work towards.

Elizabeth, otoh, has always chosen to be "strong" by not looking at herself too closely. It's what made her the badass one, but it also makes her more brittle and in more extreme trouble now. But it seems like making her otherwise would be shying away from her character. Elizabeth without Philip, backed up by Claudia and living her dream of Paige being a spy with her...I don't see how that could ever result in a balanced Elizabeth. But it also makes sense for her character, especially at this time of her life when her kids are basically grown and even her Cause is crumbling.

But at the same time, it's not like Philip's retirement is the right way either, because he's spying now too. In working with Oleg he is acting on Elizabethan values.

19 hours ago, Erin9 said:

@sistermagpie

That post was amazing, epic. I’ve generally felt Elizabeth is actually the more favored character. She gets to talk about everything. She drives nearly everything. To be fair, Philip’s pov is more easily understood, but hearing more about what he thinks, hearing more about his childhood would be nice.

IA with almost everything you wrote, though I’m not sure Philip is really embracing Elizabethan values working with Oleg. But maybe. Depending on how you define them. He’s spying on Elizabeth, and so arguably putting her/the marriage second, to pursue a goal/cause he believes is important.

But you could also say he’s putting his children ahead of her in pursuing this; he wants a better future for them, regardless of the consequences to him/her/them. He might say doing this puts everyone else first.

His goal is something easier to root for rather that the hardline POV Elizabeth is following. True enough. The fact that Philip is able to look at the situation in terms of what seems to be the best interests of Russia/the world helps too, rather than Elizabeth clinging to the way things have always been, whether it works or has been corrupted or not.

But, I would think that Philip may be saying to himself that this is helpful to Elizabeth since Oleg pointed out that extreme loyalty can be used. Elizabeth is not overly analytical or capable of lots of discernment. And she’s not in good shape to be developing that ability when she needs it most. It’s hard to know. It’s clear he agrees with Oleg’s POV. We know he’s thought that way for some time- the old ways don’t work. He recognizes it could be a worldwide disaster if the hardliners win- and a real loss for the motherland. What exactly he thinks about Elizabeth is debatable. He still loves her; I think that’s certain.

18 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

That's true, I hadn't thought about that. I think when I was framing it as Elizabeth's values I was thinking in a really literal way. That is: Elizabeth reported on Philip to the KGB; now Philip is reporting on her. And also if their choices at the end of S5 were retirement/turning your back on the wider world vs. devoting yourself to spying, Philip is *not* choosing to stay out of it.

Not that I think anyone would expect him too, but if you take Philip's choice at the end of S5 to represent a path of two extremes, one could think he was representing a life where you turn your back on the world and just focus on your family. But he and Elizabeth actually do still have a desire to help the world in common. Philip is willing to get involved in a very dangerous plot that puts him and his family at risk and he's doing it because he thinks it's important to the world and the future of his children as well. He can't stop caring about the world completely any more than she can stop caring about her family completely--even if it seems like they can do that.

But as in the past, Elizabeth sometimes has trouble understanding that someone can have the same values as her when it doesn't show itself the same way. She may think that if Philip can retire, he doesn't care. But of course that's not true.

And I do also agree that Philip is working for Elizabeth as well. I think he sees her as needing his help and he is trying to help and even save her in a fundamental way. Maybe he and Elizabeth are both right now hoping the different things they want don't have to come into conflict. Like Elizabeth thinks she can have a daughter and her Cause by working with Paige and doesn't want to think about how she might lose everything instead. Philip would like to believe that he can save Elizabeth and Russia and the world by joining this scheme, but of course Elizabeth might not see it that way.

Really appreciate these posts, for driving home what this show is about; the personal cost of living a secret life. Unfortunately, it also drives home my biggest problem with the show, which is how Elizabeth has been written. Russell's work has been terrific, but I sure wish that the writers had been more helpful.

qtpye · April 22, 2018

On 4/21/2018 at 9:51 AM, Bannon said:

Really appreciate these posts, for driving home what this show is about; the personal cost of living a secret life. Unfortunately, it also drives home my biggest problem with the show, which is how Elizabeth has been written. Russell's work has been terrific, but I sure wish that the writers had been more helpful.

The creators of Breaking Bad had a vision when the show began and they were smart enough to Pivot and make changes as so the show progressed. At first, they wanted to make Hank a total idiot and kill off Jessie Pinkman very early in the run. They realized this was not the right moves and adjusted accordingly.

I feel the creators of the Americans had a vision and have stubbornly held on to it no matter what. It is one of the reasons they always insist that the actress that plays Paige is amazing when we can see she basically has one doe-eyed Bambi expression and making her a spy is laughable. They had a vision that E would be a hardliner that at this point is more an automation than real human being and they will stick with it no matter what. Kerri Russell should get an Emmy just for turning some of the crappy writing into gold.

MisterBluxom · April 26, 2018

I have no good evidence to make the following prediction. It's just my personal opinion. Actually, it really just a guess.

But I'm thinking the producers might like to give the audience some satisfying emotional reward for watching all of these seasons and so they just might arrange for Elizabeth to witness a Russian operation that goes terribly wrong and winds up doing great harm to a whole lot of people. Then, she might decide she has been wrong all these years and ...

Either the Russian government is really no worse than the American government. They are both just self-interested monsters capable of almost any kind of evil to get what they want. Alternatively, she may decide the Russian government is actually much worse than the Americans because they run their country is such a way that 98% of their people live in terrible poverty while the members of the ruling class live in comparative luxury. The truth about America is that the division of wealth is actually very similar. The big difference is that it is not brute force that causes a tiny percentage of people to have almost all the wealth in the country. I think it has been said that 3% of Americans hold 99% of all the wealth. The reason is the capitalistic system is set up so that, to a very large extent, the wealthy class gets all the wealth and gets to keep it all in their families for generations to come. Of course, that is not absolutely true. Many of today's big billionaires made their money themselves. They didn't inherit it from their parents. But a great deal of the wealth in America has been passed down from generation to generation.

Based on that, Elizabeth may end the series by deciding she has been wrong all along and Phillip has been right and that they should arrange for their children to embrace the freedoms in the American society and break all ties from Russia.

I know this is very far-fetched and very unlikely to happen. But it sure would make me happy and it would mean the show would finish with a real Big Bang! People would gather at water coolers all over the country and have many discussions about this show and I'd really love to see that.

Edited April 26, 2018 by MissBluxom

MisterBluxom · April 26, 2018

On 9/6/2014 at 7:31 PM, topanga said:

Elizabeth, like all of the characters on this show, is very complicated. Frustratingly so at times. What I've learned about her in these two seasons is that she loves Mother Russia above anything else--Phillip, the kids, and even Gregory (may his fine a** rest in peace). She's dedicated to the cause, even to the point of considering Paige as a candidate for the 2nd generation program.

Phillip, on the other hand, still loves Russia, but he also has deep love for the children, Elizabeth, and even the United States. Which infuriates Elizabeth, of course.

I was really struck by your post. Made me think for quite a while.

I think you are correct that Elizabeth is very complicated. But my problem is that I can't understand how anyone could have developed such a complicated character given her completely simple background. I may be wrong, but from what I've seen, Elizabeth was raised in a very poor home and schooled in the Communist ideology. It seems pretty clear to me that she was never exposed to any of the great thinkers in this world. She never got to meet people who would challenge her point of view or present her with any other opinions or points of view. I never saw any evidence that she got to study or even just got exposed to any of the great philosophers or economists or most anyone else. Where did all of her sophisticated beliefs come from? It's as if she listened to a very few government broadcasts that said Communism was good and Capitalism was bad and that was just the way it is. Where could have any other sophisticated ideas or opinions come from? How could she possibly have ever developed any of those? Where and how would she have ever been exposed to them?

Loandbehold · May 17, 2018

I don't know about anyone else, but during the cold opening to "The Summit," I didn't only fear for Philip after he told Elizabeth that he'd ratted her out to Oleg. I feared for me. That E. Jennings look sent shivers down my spine.

SunnyBeBe · May 18, 2018

Has anyone ever been to Elizabeth Jennings Way in England? I thought this looked ominous. Complete with POLICE tape. See photo down a little.

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/15650743.Street_evacuated_and_7_police_officers_injured_by_unknown__chemical_substance_/

SunnyBeBe · May 19, 2018

When E was playing like she was a higher up in the Marketing firm in order to play the intern last week, I knew she reminded me of someone else. I figured it out. She played it much like the role of Suzanne Stone in the movie To Die For, played by Nicole Kidman. From the clothes, hair, mannerisms, and seduction, it was uncanny how similar it was. It's based on a true story and is pretty good. She even makes a comment about Gorbachev in the movie! I wonder if Keri had her in mind.

Edited May 19, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

qtpye · May 23, 2018

On 5/19/2018 at 2:18 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

When E was playing like she was a higher up in the Marketing firm in order to play the intern last week, I knew she reminded me of someone else. I figured it out. She played it much like the role of Suzanne Stone in the movie To Die For, played by Nicole Kidman. From the clothes, hair, mannerisms, and seduction, it was uncanny how similar it was. It's based on a true story and is pretty good. She even makes a comment about Gorbachev in the movie! I wonder if Keri had her in mind.

Good catch. Nicole Kidman was terrifying in that movie in her tunnel vision delusional ambitions.

SunnyBeBe · May 27, 2018

I wonder why E's memory of how she left the policeman and horse in the street without helping, didn't occur to her when she had the issue with Pasha being left almost dead from suicide? It seems that it was P who wanted to risk going to his rescue. And, he was an innocent Russian too.

Loandbehold · May 27, 2018

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I wonder why E's memory of how she left the policeman and horse in the street without helping, didn't occur to her when she had the issue with Pasha being left almost dead from suicide? It seems that it was P who wanted to risk going to his rescue. And, he was an innocent Russian too.

I think Philip's talk with her in the prior episode got her to consider more of what she was doing instead of just following orders and completing an assignment.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Loandbehold
To finish a thought.

sistermagpie · May 27, 2018

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I wonder why E's memory of how she left the policeman and horse in the street without helping, didn't occur to her when she had the issue with Pasha being left almost dead from suicide? It seems that it was P who wanted to risk going to his rescue. And, he was an innocent Russian too.

Maybe because when she had Philip she didn't have to make those calls for herself so she could put off thinking about it? Philip's always made that same decision. He did it in the pilot with Rob, with Pasha and even on his own when he rescued Elizabeth in The Colonel. This was the first time Elizabeth herself was making a decision to disobey orders. Philip had made his opinion clear, but it was her orders.

Erin9 · May 28, 2018

On 5/27/2018 at 11:46 AM, sistermagpie said:

Maybe because when she had Philip she didn't have to make those calls for herself so she could put off thinking about it? Philip's always made that same decision. He did it in the pilot with Rob, with Pasha and even on his own when he rescued Elizabeth in The Colonel. This was the first time Elizabeth herself was making a decision to disobey orders. Philip had made his opinion clear, but it was her orders.

It was interesting to see her flashback and see how seriously she’d always taken orders- no thinking for herself. Even to the point her trainer told her there were exceptions.

But- it might have been more useful if it hadn’t seemed clear that she’d already made the decision to not kill him and to save him from someone else killing him. She’d already told Philip that.

I guess this was to show the evolution of the girl who followed orders to an extent even her trainer disagreed with to one who- without prodding from Philip or anyone else- decided to save him. Though I feel like we already knew that about her. Unless there is something I’m missing. It seems like the airtime could have gone elsewhere.

sistermagpie · May 28, 2018

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

I guess this was to show the evolution of the girl who followed orders to an extent even her trainer disagreed with to one who- without prodding from Philip or anyone else- decided to save him. Though I feel like we already knew that about her. Unless there is something I’m missing. It seems like the airtime could have gone elsewhere.

Yeah, I really didn't feel like the flashbacks added anything. Especially since this was a situation where the orders weren't clear anyway--she was following orders from a group of people who were planning a coup. Her boss was against them and so was the boss above them. So the lesson not to leave a comrade dying on the street in Moscow didn't even really track for me. The order there that Elizabeth followed wasn't really an order, it was a guideline she misinterpreted. She was told to treat her training as if she was in the US and she took that literally when it was more about her mindset rather than an order, if that makes sense. So yeah, I didn't really see how this incident was supposed to be so illuminating especially since she may have saved one comrade but she also killed another.

It actually might have been more meaningful if they'd written a flashback about her early training or early days with *Philip* that she was remembering, like a time when she thought he was wrong to disobey an order or something. Or where they disagreed and she didn't get his perspective at all.

SlovakPrincess · May 28, 2018

My take on the flashback was that, now that Elizabeth has decided to disobey orders for the greater good, she's thinking back to how things may have gone somewhat off track for her in the first place. At the time, "never leave a comrade dying in the street in Moscow (even when I told you to do exactly what you'd do on a real mission)" and "don't lose who you are" may just have been confusing for someone anxious to please and trying to learn a dangerous business. She's remembering it now and finally internalizing it because she's finally willing to question things, i.e., what is it I'm really supposed to be fighting for here? Shouldn't it be peace and safety for Russians? And Philip has helped her come to the conclusion that Gorbachev's vision of Russian relations with the U.S. is actually what they have been - or should have been - working toward.

The Pasha situation was a bit different, in that Philip was asking Elizabeth to choose between one human life (helping a young suicidal kid) and The Cause. Elizabeth's mindset was always that The Cause was greater than any one human life. But now she's not choosing something over The Cause, she's defining The Cause differently from what her superiors are telling her.

Perhaps she was thinking that Nesterenko is her true comrade. And someone like his would-be assassin is more of a traitor, or at least expendable, because Tatiana was trying to protect the power and goals of the Centre over a chance to actually help Russians.

Edited May 28, 2018 by SlovakPrincess

sistermagpie · May 30, 2018

From the Philip thread...

His warning to Kimmie/ refusing to help Elizabeth. Then- telling Elizabeth that he’d blown the Kimmie op for good. He wanted to do right by Kimmie. And was willing to totally blow her op and risked their cover by giving so much info to her. That was huge for Philip.

I wonder if that's meant to parallel Elizabeth and Claudia. They're both scenes where the person is openly telling the other person they've defied them and blown their op. It seems like Elizabeth is doing this because she feels some respect for Claudia and feels she owes it to her but ultimately the scene is an ending for them. Elizabeth is furious at Philip for the Kimmy thing and basically calls him a whore (I thought of it when Paige used that word to Elizabeth) and he's still defiant. Claudia is more coldly angry/disappointed with Elizabeth.

It's a bit like the two of them represent the two sides of Elizabeth--her emotional side that's tied to people and the part that's just about the Cause. When Elizabeth defies Claudia on this there's no place to go. Claudia tells her she's lost everything, listing her family and husband as if they're the same as her house--an empty object with no meaning even if it's expensive. Elizabeth goes home and does seem to lose everything. Paige walks out claiming that Philip and Henry don't want to be around her. She's in her empty house that she's filling with cigarette smoke. If she's not obeying Claudia/the Centre, they'll just dump her. She can't think for herself and have them.

But then a phone call from Philip snaps her out of it. Suddenly it all matters--or at least, the kids and Philip do. She grabs the wedding rings, the sign that this is what she's got. The rings represent the thing that ties both her lives/selves together.

So if you go back and compare the Philip scene about Kimmy, Elizabeth isn't calmly eating soup like Claudia at all. She's lashing out like she's really lost something if Philip doesn't have her back and trying to make him do what she wants. She continues to be angry when she goes off to get Harvest--until she gets actually vulnerable and Philip's there for her. Her anger doesn't do it; she needs to need him. She can't be vulnerable in front of Claudia. She never has been. Even that first big fight was her beating up Claudia as a representative of the Centre for *not* being Philip. There she was angry that the Centre didn't respect her loyalty to them; this season they used her loyalty against her. It's Philip who, even while spying on her, said how loyal and worthy of respect she was.

Which I guess also leads to Philip's announcement that he's been spying on her. Here again Philip's confessions don't lead to a break. Elizabeth's angry but she's not disappointed like Claudia. Claudia was basically saying, "Oh, you're not who I thought you were. You're inferior and this is all useless." Where as Elizabeth found Philip infuriating and hurtful, but she didn't want him to be anyone else. (Totally different from how he described their first meeting.)

There's also the confrontation with Paige but it feels like it doesn't quite fit into the same category. I wasn't sure why that was right away. First I thought it was that they weren't equals like in the other scenes. She's not spoiling Elizabeth's op by rebelling. Then I thought maybe it's that with Paige and Elizabeth it is a separation, but not the final kind. It's like Claudia/Elizabeth in that Paige is accurately accusing Elizabeth of lying to her and manipulating her and she's breaking with her because of it. But it's not like Claudia/Elizabeth because the separation doesn't end the relationship. Paige can still be her daughter, she's just not her mini me. Elizabeth does ultimately tell her the truth so they have a better understanding of how different they are. So they're not like Claudia/Elizabeth in that they're not breaking up forever, but they're also not Philip/Elizabeth in that they're not bonded together as a pair.

This also makes me think back on something the show always seemed to bring up this way, like with Paige's church group. Elizabeth and Paige both seemed to prefer having relationships through a shared group but the problem with those relationships is you change your mind you lose the relationship. (This also seemed reflected in Gregory/Elizabeth vs. Philip/Elizabeth.)

Plums · June 21, 2018

continuing the Elizabeth discussion from the Best of thread.

Maybe romantic interest was too strong a word for what I meant, wrt her feelings for Stobert. More like, attraction. I didn't get the feeling from Philip that he was genuinely attracted to any of his honey trap marks, but Elizabeth was, and part of the reason why she was so unenthusiastic was because spending time with someone she liked, sleeping with someone who is good in bed, made her feel guilty, since she's in love with Philip. Elizabeth feels like a very faithful person. Pre-Timoshev neck crush, she wasn't open at all to affection from Philip outside of maintaining a cover. She was with Gregory. Then when she fell in love with Philip and wanted that relationship to be real, she rejected affection from Gregory and broke up with him first chance she got. When Hans flirted with her, she was flattered but turned him down explicitly because she wanted to be faithful. She felt betrayed enough by Philip sleeping with Irina that she broke up with him and kicked him out of the house (though that may have been half him sleeping with her, half him lying about it afterward), and never actually got over it because she bitterly threw it in his face years later.

It's just an interesting contrast with Philip, who generally has the long term relationships with honeytraps and so regularly has sex with other women in the context of ongoing affairs or even a marriage. It adds an interesting layer to when he asks her advice for whether he should sleep with 15 year old Kimberly or not, and she says she doesn't know.

sistermagpie · June 21, 2018

1 minute ago, Plums said:

It's just an interesting contrast with Philip, who generally has the long term relationships with honeytraps and so regularly has sex with other women in the context of ongoing affairs or even a marriage. It adds an interesting layer to when he asks her advice for whether he should sleep with 15 year old Kimberly or not, and she says she doesn't know.

And then automatically accuses him of wanting to sleep with her when he blows up the kidnapping plot. Again, the idea is ridiculous--and ironically he only slept with her because Elizabeth asked him to do it. She just can't *not* be jealous of the women he sleeps with even when she knows it's for work. (She's funny about Deirdre probably because Philip's so openly unenthusiastic about her.)

It's hard to really draw the line from where it's about sex and where it's about love. Philip cares about Martha and Kimmy but for Elizabeth that ought to mean he has some personal desire for them, like she had for Gregory and even Young Hee, who she wanted as a friend. This is probably a way that Philip always makes Elizabeth feel a little off-balance and insecure, which isn't a bad thing in the end.

Erin9 · June 22, 2018

I wish we could have had an episode in between Elizabeth thinking for herself/breaking with Claudia for good and the FBI bringing them down. It would have been very interesting.

Her (blind) loyalty was used. As Oleg said. How does she feel about her career as a whole now? How does she feel about the centre? Does she wonder what else she got lied to about, what else Philip was right to question? Probably. What did she think would happen after the message got to Arkady? Where was she/they headed?

How does she even feel about spying? She was burned out already. Now- she’s realized that just following orders and not thinking things through and asking questions is a mistake. She couldn’t kill that intern either. I’m not terribly knowledgeable on how drawing emotionally helps you, but it definitely opened her up. She is becoming more like Philip.

We really needed another episode.

sistermagpie · June 22, 2018

From the Paige thread:

Quote

I think Paige has the same fanatical bent, the same "I wanna be a HERO!" thing going on, which is not really being a social justice warrior, it's a bit more about calling yourself one, but really doing it as a self-esteem thing more than honestly caring about the people you are supposedly helping. For example, Elizabeth was never interested in the true conditions of the Soviet Union, even when she had people to talk to that had recently lived there. She always shut down those conversations, with the South African guy who trained with the KGB for a year and faced discrimination in the USSR, for example, she heard him, she said "it's not perfect" and that was it. Not a follow up question, not a "how was your trainer?" With the Russian couple in season 5, she didn't want to hear about the shortages and corruption, while Philip was very curious and tried to discuss it with her later. Shut down.

Yes, Elizabeth seems to have early on associated asking questions and doubting with being a traitor. (Another reason why she's such a good mirror to religious faith where she believes she's supposed to have faith and not doubt.) But she seems to never think about just how much of that is really a desire for approval or fear of rejection. Especially fear. She really does seem driven by conquering her various fears but doesn't admit, for instance, how many of them might be related to growing up under Stalin. With a father who was shot for being a coward. She can't even entertain logical criticism about the crappy way things work and how they could be better. When she has doubts she'd rather see them as a flaw in her or a weakness of her faith or commitment than the scarier idea that maybe she's actually doing the wrong thing.

At the start of S6 Elizabeth seemed to just embody all her worst qualities. When she and Claudia talked about the Cause I remember thinking how nobody would ever want to live in any new world they would create because they didn't like people. Sometimes caring about the whole world is just another way of not caring about anyone.

54 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Her (blind) loyalty was used. As Oleg said. How does she feel about her career as a whole now? How does she feel about the centre? Does she wonder what else she got lied to about, what else Philip was right to question?

That is a really interesting question. I mean, we see way back in In Control that she's started to see the value in Philip's doubts because he did know better in In Control and said so. Then here in this ep it's another example of him being right about what's going on. Elizabeth, of course, never even thought about what she was doing except to immediately get herself into the mindset that this plot of Gorbachev's was true. The fact that Philip didn't tell her about what he was doing made her angry, but I think part of her could understand why he didn't tell her. Would she have been open to the truth? I don't think she can really be sure.

Maybe one of the greatest things that Philip gives her isn't so much doubt in the system but that it's okay to doubt the system without losing everything. I mean, so much of her life is based on the ends justifying the means. When she's faced even with obvious betrayal, like her rape, she doubles down and makes excuses. But since Philip is a person who's obviously there for her even when she's not "strong" or disagrees with him, maybe that opens up the possibility that she can question things without being a traitor or rejected. He wandered around unsure what to do for a long time without self-destructing.

Umbelina · June 22, 2018

3 hours ago, Erin9 said:

We really needed another episode.

As I've been saying...

;~)

Look, I know it seems like I'm being a pain in the ass, but I am SERIOUSLY disappointed in this show for this ending. The ending of a show, and in this case, the episodes leading TO this particular fuzzy ending have wrecked so much of what I loved about The American's for years.

Elizabeth's thread, so this is just ONE thing that could have happened that would make this ending more like the hopeful one you see, and the one I can't see. It's honestly not that I refuse to see it, it's simply not logical or realistic to me that anything that will happen to any of our characters next will have any hope or happy ending. For the record, I will admit I'm not a romantic. I'm more of an optimistic realistic. In this situation though, optimism requires completely dropping the realism side of me, and I simply can't do that.

So, Elizabeth.

She's supposed to be smart. She met with that General in Mexico. She found out Claudia is involved with the Coup. She refused orders to kill the dude Tatiana tried to kill. She KILLED a KGB officer. She foiled a Coup, went against a very powerful group of people that even Gorbachev couldn't control or go completely against according to Arkady.

WHO KNEW THAT? WHO IS THE ONE PERSON THAT COULD EXPOSE HER?

Claudia.

That's it! Just Claudia!

So, what does "the best of the best KGB Officer in the world" do?

She lets Claudia live to expose her, to put not just her life, but Philip's life, Paige's life, possibly even HENRY's life in jeopardy.

IN WHAT UNIVERSE would Elizabeth do that? No one in the USSR, specifically in the Coup which includes KGB officers could have known she thwarted the Coup except Arkady and Philip, both of whom would protect her since they helped thwart it as well. No one could KNOW, though they might SUSPECT, that Elizabeth killed Tatiana. She had plausible cover stories.

All she had to do was kill Claudia, or at the very least, LIE to Claudia, don't tell her you were going against her Coup, don't tell her you wouldn't kill that dude, just say the opportunity wasn't there, guards and surveillance covered the area, whatever.

Those two things, telling Claudia the truth ( WTF?!? ) and then not killing her? Are the two things that make it impossible for a happy ending. They also make no sense at all.

Fuck you writers.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Umbelina

sistermagpie · June 22, 2018

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

IN WHAT UNIVERSE would Elizabeth do that? No one in the USSR, specifically in the Coup which includes KGB officers could have known she thwarted the Coup except Arkady and Philip, both of whom would protect her since they helped thwart it as well. No one could KNOW, though they might SUSPECT, that Elizabeth killed Tatiana. She had plausible cover stories.

It seems like they wanted to suggest there was too much respect between Elizabeth and Claudia for them to kill each other, but it's hard to believe that Claudia would see it that way if she was in any danger--or Elizabeth for that matter. Claudia's not her mother. Claudia just manipulated her in a way Elizabeth ought to find really horrifying--enough so that she killed Tatiana.

It's always seemed like they wanted Claudia and Elizabeth to have this strong mother/daughter vibe just because--even back in the first season Claudia's, like, furiously trying to bond with her and seeing her as a mini-me and trying to break up her marriage and it always seemed to me that Elizabeth was supposed to be genuinely foolish to let herself just easily slide back into trusting her as if they had some understanding. So in the end it really seems like they put way too much weight on whatever deep bond they thought Elizabeth and Claudia should have if they expected it to outweigh the actual danger these two posed to each other. Claudia's not Hannibal Lecter to Elizabeth's Clarice here, who would never kill her because "it'd be rude." She doesn't really have any reason to feel so strongly bonded to Elizabeth that she'd stick her neck out to protect her and there's no reason Elizabeth would think she would.

Sometimes I think part of the problem was sort of a Mail Robot thing. Claudia was a fan favorite because she was Beloved Character Actress Margo Martindale. She had a cool nickname--Granny. Elizabeth beat her up and threatened her. She had snarky lines. She's an older lady with a bouffant hairdo who plays Ms. Pacman and also murders people slowly and painfully! She's been there since episode 3, season 1. But they never really, imo, explained enough about her to support this ending with Elizabeth.

I think the show certainly suggested enough to make Claudia interesting--her mentioned-in-passing love affair where she confessed who she was, loving Zhukov, manipulating Elizabeth into getting revenge for Zhukov, whatever the hell her damage was regarding Philip from the start (doesn't seem like it was just his threatening her), the mentions of her estranged children. In S6 they gave her chances to be funny getting drunk and talking about sex and showing Paige hugging her hello as if they're actually close, like we're obviously supposed to see her as a real Granny now. I can understand her being driven by her WWII-attitude, her seeing Elizabeth as some kind of spiritual daughter she wants on her side. I can believe her getting some satisfaction out of Paige liking her, as if that proves that she is a good mother and grandmother and it's just her actual daughter and grandchildren who are in the wrong.

That's how she comes across to me. But that's still a woman who's driven by her own desires rather than any real connection to other people. I can so easily imagine that somebody like that, facing an Elizabeth who has proved she's *not* her spiritual daughter, must be killed. Naturally she would never put that much value in Paige--Paige is like Philip, she just comes with Elizabeth. (I think she'd actually grudgingly respect Philip more since at least he's got excellent spy skills and doesn't quickly "take to her" the way Paige does and fall for the sweet granny act.) She's probably found ways to encourage Elizabeth's estrangement from both Philip and Henry for years without Elizabeth noticing.

So I've been able to buy Elizabeth's being rather dumb where Claudia's return--but this goes beyond that. And I don't see the same kind of blindspot on Claudia's part. I could more easily imagine that she'd felt she'd been mistaken by overlooking all of the red flags that Elizabeth was weak and so having no problem killing her.

Edited June 22, 2018 by sistermagpie

Umbelina · June 22, 2018

I don't.

Yes, Claudia was fascinating, I adored her, I even admired her, she stayed true to the very end, she endured the endless battle of Stalingrad, she helped end WWII. She's amazing.

That doesn't matter at all though.

Philip's life, Paige's life, Elizabeth's OWN life would always be more important to Elizabeth than Claudia. ALWAYS.

It was completely illogical, dangerous, and stupid to leave Claudia alive to expose them all to extremely powerful people. It makes no sense AT ALL that she told Claudia she wasn't going to kill that dude, and fuck the Coup the day before.

Claudia would have killed Elizabeth in a heartbeat to stop that betrayal. The ONLY reason Claudia didn't kill her in that apartment, is that she wasn't going to try to take on Elizabeth alone. She didn't need to. This wasn't like personally needing to kill Zhukov's killer.

Elizabeth was going to be dead, IS going to be dead, probably after her traitor, weak husband dies in front of her eyes. Claudia doesn't need to be the one to do it, she has LOTS of powerful people to do that for her. Which? THEY WILL.

It will be even easier now that they are stuck in the USSR again.

ETA

It also makes the writer's idiotic sappy ending ridiculous. They will die. Soon. Painfully. Period.

Had that one thing been different? Philip and Elizabeth's futures might be difficult, but they would at least have futures.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Umbelina

Erin9 · June 22, 2018

It really is quite unbelievable that Claudia and Elizabeth let each other walk away. There is NOTHING believable about it. They were on opposite sides of a war when you get right down to it. They were a threat to each other’s visions of their country. And Claudia is very dangerous. Always has been. Elizabeth knows that. Claudia would not forgive this either.

I think the writers wanted to go the “creative” route of not killing any major characters. After that episode, I had a feeling they just might not kill anyone. They didn’t. Sure- they may have wanted to show respect between the two- but that respect was essentially GONE due to the enormity of the lie and both women disagreeing on the right thing to do.

I think we’re meant to believe Claudia is in more danger than Elizabeth based on how the conversation ends with them. The emphasis is on Claudia and her people being rounded up. Not revenge seeking. But, realistically, P/E’s side needs to round up all of Claudia’s to be safe. I’ll go with the idea that happens in the end, but I don’t buy the women just walking away from each other.

When Philip was talking to Stan he specifically says he’s not sure what they’re coming home to because of this Coup plot. It gets a bit lost in the revelation that their message never even made it to Moscow at all and the need for them to deliver it. But- Philip did know they were walking into a lion’s den just by the fact this was happening. And that we know of- he doesn’t even know Claudia knows Elizabeth blew it all. He just knew for sure it was a dangerous situation. The country itself is in danger because who knows what will happen. But an internal war in the KGB is another problem for them. People will be (and have been) choosing sides.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Erin9

Umbelina · June 22, 2018

6 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

It really is quite unbelievable that Claudia and Elizabeth let each other walk away. There is NOTHING believable about it. They were on opposite sides of a war when you get right down to it. They were a threat to each other’s visions of their country.

Completely. It works with a different ending, (for example Arkady's car ambushed and all of them murdered Bonnie and Clyde style) but it's just a complete non-sequitur with the ending we actually got.

6 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I think the writers wanted to go the “creative” route of not killing any major characters.

That's it exactly. Ditto with the pitch black Warehouse scene, and the endless hole digging. They got much too full of themselves, and the show suffered because of that. I wish the critiques had been more critical.

6 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I think we’re meant to believe Claudia is in more danger than Elizabeth based on how the conversation ends with them. The emphasis is on Claudia and her people being rounded up. Not revenge seeking. But, realistically, P/E’s side needs to round up all of Claudia’s to be safe.

Claudia has skills and connections that Elizabeth could only dream of having. Elizabeth really knows no one back in Russia, nobody. The head of her division is in the Coup. She can identify a GENERAL. She can identify Claudia.

They can't round them all up, if that could have happened, Arkady would be on it. He's far more connected that Elizabeth OR Philip.

Not a chance in hell "they" let Elizabeth live, hopefully Arkady didn't endanger his own life by picking them up. Philip already has a shaky record with Moscow, they will assume Elizabeth told him all, and take him out as well.

6 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

But- Philip did know they were walking into a lion’s den just by the fact this was happening. And that we know of- he doesn’t even know Claudia knows Elizabeth blew it all. He just knew for sure it was a dangerous situation. The country itself is in danger because who knows what will happen. But an internal war in the KGB is another problem for them. People will be (and have been) choosing sides.

That annoyed the fuck out of me. We don't even know if Elizabeth TOLD Philip about her insane decision to

Confess all to Claudia
Decide to let a furious Claudia live

Philip's not an idiot, his first stop wouldn't have been Paige's place, he'd try to kill Claudia if he knew Elizabeth left evidence behind that WILL get them killed, revenge or self protection or patriotism, take you pick about motivations.

Of course, Claudia was probably gone the moment Elizabeth left. Her sitting their eating her soup was also idiotic. She would not do that. (consider a period after every word in the last sentence.)

sistermagpie · June 22, 2018

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, Claudia was fascinating, I adored her, I even admired her, she stayed true to the very end, she endured the endless battle of Stalingrad, she helped end WWII. She's amazing.

That doesn't matter at all though.

Philip's life, Paige's life, Elizabeth's OWN life would always be more important to Elizabeth than Claudia. ALWAYS.

Exactly--I'm agreeing. I see lots of things in Claudia...but nothing at all that would lead me to believe she would hesitate to kill Elizabeth. And while I can more believe that Elizabeth has been stupider about Claudia than Claudia has been about her...she doesn't seem so stupid as to think Claudia would let her live if she was a threat.

That is, I get the impression that Elizabeth's blindspot with Claudia has something to do with her seeing her as a mother figure and slipping into a lot of old patterns she had with her mother. Elizabeth always obeyed her mother and wanted her approval and love. But Claudia's life appears to be the opposite. It seems that she always did make the choice Elizabeth didn't and chose the Cause over everything, including her family. So there's nothing in Claudia that says that she would let Elizabeth live. And even Elizabeth's previous blind spots don't, to me, make me think that she wouldn't see the direct danger here.

They clearly wrote their last confrontation as two people who think the other person is making the wrong choice and that's disappointing but now they'll go their separate ways when really these are two people who would both realize they *can't* let the other person just go on their merry way. Because why would both of them agree to keep quiet about the other one's actions? In fact, not even agree to it but just assume there's an unspoken agreement? They wouldn't. They'd have to kill the other person.

It's like with Gregory, a little. His whole relationship with Elizabeth was based on the idea that they both thought the Cause was more important and would sacrifice anything for it, so it had to play out the way it did. There was no chance of running away together because the whole relationship was about how they'd never do that and really never wanted to (or at least she didn't--maybe he didn't at first either, back when he had more in his life). Elizabeth and Claudia also had a relationship based on how the Cause was most important so there's nothing in there that says they'd put the other person above it. Claudia's not Stan to Elizabeth's Philip. She's also not Philip to Elizabeth's Elizabeth.

Now that I think about it, that could have been really interesting if they wrote to it, with Claudia being a representative of the "mother" the Centre has been. She could be very upset at having to kill her because of all the things she does respect about her, and because she understands that Claudia thinks she's protecting the country. It could symbolize Elizabeth taking an even bigger stand than she does with Tatiana--not just making her own decision about which side to choose but to reject the mother whose approval and respect and love she's unconsciously craved. It's saying, "You treated me badly and it was not justified by the Cause."

Edited June 23, 2018 by sistermagpie

Plums · June 28, 2018

Another subtle detail re: Elizabeth deluding herself wrt Paige in season 6 that I didn't really catch until rewatch. When Elizabeth and Father Andrei are walking together in the cemetery early on in the season, Elizabeth confides in him that she's teaching Paige about Russian history and culture, the implication being to make her daughter understand and identify as the native Russian citizen Elizabeth desperately wants her to be. Father Andrei takes a tone of commiseration with her at first and talks about how he teaches American born Russian kids in Sunday school, and how difficult it is to convey those ideas to kids who are growing up in America as opposed to the USSR, but Elizabeth kind of just misses this direction completely and confidently declares that Paige is getting it. Father Andrei says something polite in response like, "you need to teach me your tricks" before segueing into talk of Philip, but it's just such a moment. Like, Father Andrei is probably teaching the kids of 1st generation immigrants or grandkids of 2nd generation immigrants, people who are raising their kids in the Russian Orthodox Church, probably speak Russian at home, are clearly still very connected to their cultural roots and probably have family in the USSR, and even those kids remain stubbornly American/not really Russian because of the wider culture they've developed in. It is nowhere even near possible that Paige "gets it" in the ways that Elizabeth keeps insisting she does but probably knows deep down isn't the case at all.

I also love the whole WWII discussion in the Russian Culture Club, where Claudia begins the lesson by asking if Paige knows how many Americans died fighting the Nazis, because she wants to blow her mind with the Soviet death toll and disabuse her of the notion that Americans made any sort of real sacrifice and won the war, but Paige doesn't even know because she doesn't venerate the American sacrifices in WWII to begin with- it's not something she was taught about extensively or ever really thinks about. Her perspective is just SO alien from Claudia and Elizabeth's experience. And Elizabeth goes home then and tells Philip about the history lesson and insists that she thinks Paige got it when he asked how she took it. Noooooo, Elizabeth. Paige didn't get it AT ALL. She can't. IT IS NOT IN THE REALM OF HER LIVED EXPERIENCE.

Just, all these painful little moments in the series adding up- Elizabeth in la la land towards the end of season 5, when they've decided to retire and take the kids back with them to Russia, and Elizabeth says Paige would do really well there and like it. It's just so sad.

One particularly insightful moment Philip had was when Elizabeth told him she saw a necklace Paige would like and wanted to get it for her birthday, and Philip asked how she'd know Paige would like it, because maybe Elizabeth saw it and wants to get it because she likes it. There's just so much almost willfully blind projection that goes on with Elizabeth towards Paige.

sistermagpie · June 28, 2018

12 hours ago, Plums said:

One particularly insightful moment Philip had was when Elizabeth told him she saw a necklace Paige would like and wanted to get it for her birthday, and Philip asked how she'd know Paige would like it, because maybe Elizabeth saw it and wants to get it because she likes it. There's just so much almost willfully blind projection that goes on with Elizabeth towards Paige.

That's another thing to do a rewatch and look for throughout. It almost seems like Elizabeth sees Paige as painfully alien to her until she gets into the nuclear protest march. Then suddenly Elizabeth is like, "She's like ME." Then that's her whole personality. When she starts talking about wanting to tell Paige who they are she keeps saying she needs to know "who she is" even if it freaks her out when of course she really means she needs Paige to know who Elizabeth is. But she doesn't understand the difference.

That Father Andre catch is great. Here's a guy who's openly doing this, as you say, with kids who are far more connected to the culture than Paige will ever be and yet he can see realistically what the kids are and aren't getting. Meanwhile, imo, every single culture club lesson has Paige politely not actually connecting to anything she's being exposed to--often it winds up with just Claudia and Elizabeth bonding with each other while Paige makes a weak stab out of trying to find something in what they're saying that relates to her her life.

And of course, that's also reflected in her whole spy storyline. It's funny, actually, because ultimately it seems like Philip asks both Paige and Elizabeth during the course of the season to *think* about what they're doing instead of just following along--just like he's taught in EST. Even the thing he says to Elizabeth on the phone where he calls himself an asshole is an EST thing. It's goofy, but it's also a total contrast to how Paige *hasn't* internalized anything she's allegedly learning from Elizabeth.

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