S08.E17: Reunion: Return of the ALDC

[Guest]

Airs September 3, 2019

Quote

After a season jam-packed with mama drama, Jai Rodriguez sits down with the entire cast of "Dance Moms" to right the wrongs and finally set the record straight; the new elite team performs some of its award-winning dances from the season.

[rlc]

Ladies, please put those things away. 

[Tatortot]

IKR?

[hatchetgirl]

Ouch,  Jai is looking ROUGH! He looks like he was up all night and hung over.  Unfortunate. 

Abby looks like an idiot with that stupid wig. Why is she unable to listen to any criticism? When they showed the hilarious scene of her backing out of nationals, she reclined her chair so she didn't need to watch. 

Seriously, why do these women allow their children to go through this bs? It's sick and gross. Where do they draw the line? I feel like each of them would happily send their child up to weinstein's hotel room or to epstein's island if it got them a little more screen time.  

[Absolom]

The reunion episode showed a significant drop as we might expect:  389 K viewers and a .1 rating.  

Did anyone else think the "police officer" was straight from central casting?

[LibertarianSlut]

 I had two observations from the reunion, or sit-down, or whatever it was:

1. Ann's lying about having no control issues with Hannah and how she supposedly lets the kid talk.  Earlier this season, when Ann was crying, she admitted that she does do all the speaking for Hannah.  She said in a talking head that if she's at a restaurant, and Hannah is ordering grilled cheese and the waitress can't hear Hannah, that Ann will just speak up for Hannah to get things moving and to save the waitress time.  I remember thinking/posting at the time that the girl is 14, Ann can and should tell her to speak up, and if a waitress or someone doesn't hear because the kid is whispering, let her miss a meal.  I guarantee it'll only happen maybe...twice.  Then the kid will get hungry and will speak up.  Speaking for her all the time is harmful, and it can affect whether the kid will work.
2. I didn't realize that when Abby got so angry at Michelle that one time that Michelle had called Abby "ignorant."  I am willing to go out on a limb and say Michelle didn't just grasp that word from the ether (even though, Lord knows, Abby is severely ignorant).  I think Michelle said "ignorant" specifically, because that's the word Holly used to know that would really push Abby's buttons.  And, was Abby even being ignorant in that situation?  Or was she just being a stubborn bitch?  I could think of a lot of names to toss at Abby for the way she was acting in that situation, and "ignorant" doesn't really make the top five...

Eh, I had other observations, but when the moms lied and said Brady never got first, only for them to air Brady placing first in the clip show, it reminded me just how fake and sneaky this whole endeavor is.  When a whole bunch of grown ups pretend a kid never got first, because his first place didn't make it to air, it sort of shoves everyone's hypocrisy in my face and I'm like, this is too fake for me.  Everyone lost my respect <shrugs>

[tessat]

Everyone has to take this show and the moms with a grain of salt. You could see from the kids show that Hannah has a voice and the kids conformed that - production just wants to paint her differently onscreen.

I use to be an Abby hater - but after all these yeas of watching and seeing how edited these shows are - these kids all benefit from being on the show - sure they are corrected - but lots of times the words used are edited so it makes it look worst than it is. Very few people would know - Maddie, MacKenzie, Chloe or Ni had it not been for Dance Moms - they may have been known for a bit in the Dance World if they were top contenders in competitions - but these kids will have a presence for life with all the videos, groups, social media sites ect.

[marinaalexis]

On 9/11/2019 at 7:21 AM, tessat said:

I use to be an Abby hater - but after all these yeas of watching and seeing how edited these shows are - these kids all benefit from being on the show - sure they are corrected - but lots of times the words used are edited so it makes it look worst than it is. Very few people would know - Maddie, MacKenzie, Chloe or Ni had it not been for Dance Moms - they may have been known for a bit in the Dance World if they were top contenders in competitions - but these kids will have a presence for life with all the videos, groups, social media sites ect.

I have to say that I have a really hard time with this mentality because I do not believe for one second that fame or opportunity makes up for the emotional and verbal abuse that those kids suffered at the hands of Abby. I know what you mean about the editing, but when it comes down to it, Abby did call Paige stupid. She did refuse to call Chloe by name. She did scream at Chloe that she was a sneak and a snake. And I can't bring myself to watch scenes like this and believe that it was fake or the kids knew she didn't mean any of it (whether or not she really did mean it is beside the point). Those tears and anxiety attacks were real, and a child's emotional well-being should never be the price of some good opportunities in show business.

I also think it's important to bring up, regarding the part of your post that I highlighted, that in fact the opposite was often true. The show was based around Abby being a tough, harsh teacher, but she was also its cash cow. There were at least several known times that the show was edited to make things look better than they really were. Case in point: Abby yelling at Christi to get Chloe's eye fixed was edited out, as was Abby screaming in Chloe's face that she would destroy her. I find it hard to believe that those were the only two instances, either.

[LibertarianSlut]

^^^

I don't disagree with much of what you are saying, but certainly the parents are more at fault for continuing to expose their kids to Abby than Abby is for acting irrationally toward children, no?

[Absolom]

The parents AND Abby are at fault in my view.  I've interviewed such destructive dance teachers in my life and they don't need to be that way.  Also parents should take a long hard look at any studio where they place their children.  I always ran the other way when I encountered "Abbies."

I know people who know and have worked with Abby Lee Miller.  They all say she's a horrible, wretched person and DM is toned down from her actual self.  

[Jsage]

7 hours ago, marinaalexis said:

I have to say that I have a really hard time with this mentality because I do not believe for one second that fame or opportunity makes up for the emotional and verbal abuse that those kids suffered at the hands of Abby. I know what you mean about the editing, but when it comes down to it, Abby did call Paige stupid. She did refuse to call Chloe by name. She did scream at Chloe that she was a sneak and a snake.

There was also the time she threw the chair at Paige. If someone even picked up a chair near Abby now she would file a police report immediately!

[marinaalexis]

6 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

^^^

I don't disagree with much of what you are saying, but certainly the parents are more at fault for continuing to expose their kids to Abby than Abby is for acting irrationally toward children, no?

No. There is no one more at fault for abusing children than the child abuser themselves - and in my opinion, Abby was indeed a child abuser.

It's also important to remember that it wasn't as easy for the parents to just pack up and leave at any time like they could at a regular dance studio. TV contracts are extremely iron-clad to ensure that cast members can't just bow out for better projects. Any of those families would have likely been completely financially ruined if they'd broken their contract early. Of course it's easy to say that you would put your child's well-being above any amount of money, but when that child and your others are at risk of losing everything if you leave...it's a much harder call to make. 

I do judge the parents who did nothing to limit their children's exposure to Abby though, absolutely. Christi definitely made a lot of questionable decisions, but I have to respect her for pulling Chloe out of the studio in season 3 and having her around Abby as little as possible (only for filming).

[LibertarianSlut]

I guess I have come to the conclusion that I would have to be there to decide whether Abby is abusive.  You provided some great examples upthread, but the show is so manufactured that I can't make a statement either way.

What I will say is that, regardless of how iron-clad a contract is--and a court will not enforce a contract that is unconscionable--a parent's job most important job is to remove their child from a situation that is harmful.  Even if it's going to get them sued for breach of contract, though I do believe "stay or get ruined" is a false dichotomy.  First, the parents could go to the press, which would likely force the production company to back down.  Second, if the parents could find a doctor to testify that the show is making their child sick, and that would get them out of the contract as a general rule.

Even if worst came to worst and the family lost the vast bulk of their assets for walking away from Dance Moms, this country has bankruptcy laws that will allow the parents to keep a roof over their heads and raise their children.  And when you have three kids sharing a bedroom rather than the McMansion you could have had if you paid to play?  That's when you explain to your kids that several years ago mom and dad made a poor decision to put their children on TV, and that decision had consequences.

What I think is never justified is for an adult to go on the show looking increasingly more glamorous, fashion-forward and tweaked, all the while encouraging winning dance competitions to keep the show running, amping up drama for the same reason, making second careers off this show's coat tails on social media, but then crying that there was an albatross around their necks in the form of a contract.  Cry me a river, moms.

Christy took Chloe off the show on the last episode of season four.  Considering that seasons two, three and four were each about two seasons long, Christy kept Chloe on that show for seven seasons.  If verbal abuse was actually occurring, there's no excuse for staying that long IMO.

What I liked about this reunion was that the moms all stated that they wanted to come back, even though Ashley, Stacey and Ann expressed reservations.  As much as these moms complain, I think they wholeheartedly want to be there.  Who apparently didn't want to be there were Erin and Savannah, and they're gone.  So I think the formula is working to some extent.  No one has to perform on TV.  If they choose to stay, I look forward to watching them.

If I were going to stop watching for any reason, it would be if they overproduced the show even more (if that's possible).  I am also increasingly troubled about how much attention Brady gets by virtue of his sex.  Seeing as how everyone is free to leave, and the overabundance of theatre involved, I am not quite as troubled by Abby's behavior as I would perhaps be in other situations.

[tessat]

Believe me - back when Lifetime had the boards - I was the one screaming the loudest about the abuse - but you don't stay on a show for years if the kids are treated that badly. Again none of them would be known had it not been for the show. Everything is edited - unless I see it with my own eyes and hear it with my own ears - I'm done believing the I heard it from a friend. Too many people suffer when what you heard isn't true or added to and in the end - the finished product in no ways represents what actually happened.

I love the show - the kids and welcome it's return. 

[marinaalexis]

3 hours ago, tessat said:

Believe me - back when Lifetime had the boards - I was the one screaming the loudest about the abuse - but you don't stay on a show for years if the kids are treated that badly. Again none of them would be known had it not been for the show. Everything is edited - unless I see it with my own eyes and hear it with my own ears - I'm done believing the I heard it from a friend. Too many people suffer when what you heard isn't true or added to and in the end - the finished product in no ways represents what actually happened.

I love the show - the kids and welcome it's return. 

I'm sorry, but I just can't get behind that one bit. I've already explained why they couldn't just leave. Kelly's lawsuit was even thrown out because Lifetime's lawyers were able to have all evidence from the show made inadmissible in court. And I'm not sure what magical editing you think was going on here, but I saw with my own eyes Abby screaming that Chloe is a sneak and a snake, and I saw with my own eyes that child holding herself as she sobbed in the hallway. What kind of editing made that happen? They somehow took separate snippets of Abby saying each individual word, edited them together, and edited the footage so it looked like her mouth was moving in the exact same way? 

And I've said it once and I'll say it again - I don't care how "well known" the kids became from the show. That means absolutely nothing in the face of years of mistreatment and it's completely irrelevant, I have no idea why you keep bringing it up. Abby Lee Miller has been a child abuser for years, and I am beyond sick of the constant justifications and denial surrounding her disgusting mistreatment of all of those children.

[LibertarianSlut]

16 hours ago, marinaalexis said:

I'm sorry, but I just can't get behind that one bit. I've already explained why they couldn't just leave. Kelly's lawsuit was even thrown out because Lifetime's lawyers were able to have all evidence from the show made inadmissible in court. And I'm not sure what magical editing you think was going on here, but I saw with my own eyes Abby screaming that Chloe is a sneak and a snake, and I saw with my own eyes that child holding herself as she sobbed in the hallway. What kind of editing made that happen? They somehow took separate snippets of Abby saying each individual word, edited them together, and edited the footage so it looked like her mouth was moving in the exact same way? 

And I've said it once and I'll say it again - I don't care how "well known" the kids became from the show. That means absolutely nothing in the face of years of mistreatment and it's completely irrelevant, I have no idea why you keep bringing it up. Abby Lee Miller has been a child abuser for years, and I am beyond sick of the constant justifications and denial surrounding her disgusting mistreatment of all of those children.

How was it explained that "they couldn't just leave"?  To quote Abby herself, as she was wheeling out of Nationals to get Baskin Robins, "this is the United States of America and you can't keep me here". 

They way you "just leave" is by walking out of the studio.  Like Kelly did.  Like Christi did.  I'm not trying to play the attorney card, but I feel like it's relevant here:  I'm an attorney and I took and passed Contracts class when I was in law school, and I learned that there is no judge in the US (possibly in Europe, but not the US) who is going to award "specific performance" damages to Lifetime.  In other words, there is no judge in this land and no law supporting the prospect that these girls or women would have to perform on TV.

I feel like I've already explained how I think the moms could have gotten out of the contract, but if--worst case scenario--they were taken to court for breach of contract, lost, and had to pay out the vast bulk of their assets in damages, they could file for bankruptcy and keep enough assets to raise children.  No one is in any danger or going homeless or hungry here.  What happened was that they got greedy and decided to stay and have money and notoriety instead of being responsible, and that's the parents' fault for being famewhores.

Each and every person on that show could have walked away.  Maybe their lifestyles wouldn't have looked the way they wanted them to if they had.  Wasn't Abby living in her own dance studio in LA because of her poor decisions?  I can't fathom a scenario in which they couldn't walk away.  "Wouldn't" and "couldn't" are completely different to me.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think it's abusive per se for an adult instructor to claim that a child is a "sneak" or a "snake" in that child's presence.  It's poor methodology, it's not constructive, it's hurtful, but it's not abuse to my mind unless there was a pattern of Abby getting in Chloe's personal space and constantly hisssing, "you're a snake, you hear me?  Don't get on my bad side or you will pay dearly.  That stage can get mighty slippery and we wouldn't want you to take a bad fall or anything."  

Chloe's reaction of crying and holding herself meant that Christi should have gotten her out of there, maybe permanently (I'm not the parent, so I can't make the call, but the parent can).  Because if Abby had called this season's Sarah a "sneak" or a "snake," Sarah probably would have brushed it off.  So the subjective reaction isn't dispositive to me either. 

My mom called me a bitch once when I was around Chloe's age, which I think is worse than 'sneak" and "snake."  My mom was not abusing me.  I'm pretty sure my horseback instructor called my friends and me "a bunch of little bitches" in a jocular tone once when I was Chloe's age.  My horseback riding instructor had a heart of gold and she couldn't be further from abusive if she tried.  

Refusing to call a kid by their name and calling her "girl" instead would have seemed cool to me when I was growing up.  When Abby does it on the show, whether it's to GiaNina or another kid, makes my husband and me laugh, as it's such a petty, silly punishment.  If I did something wrong and the only consequence I faced was that my superior wouldn't say my name, I would die laughing.  I'm not saying that is the only appropriate reaction, but I can't see how that can be considered abuse in any setting, and I almost think that particular example trivializes abuse.  It can be hurtful for an instructor that the child looks up to not to call her by her name for a punitive reason, but it's nowhere near abuse IMO. 

I have never said that Abby isn't abusive--I don't know whether she's abusive, and I think she's walked right up to the line--but I don't see enough evidence to say, "Ok, the woman's an abuser."  In the absence of proof, I'm not going to say she's abusive.  She's definitely an asshole, but I wasn't there.

The parents were there, and they were in the unique position to know how much their kids could take, and they didn't pull them, which they had every opportunity to do, every minute of every day.  I don't think the parents were abusive from anything I've seen, but I think they are total assholes if they stay when they think their kid is suffering horribly at the hands of a teacher.

And "suffering horribly" doesn't mean abuse.  I was a very sensitive kid.  Scared witless of many teachers.  I came home from second grade with major anxiety every day because I was in the third grade reading class, and the teacher used to yell a lot at the kids for very small infractions.  The teacher wasn't abusive, she was just a bitch, but my mom pulled me from the class and put me back with the second graders and the nice teacher, because she was a mom and not a famewhore only concerned with how high I could climb so that she could feel like a success vicariously through me.

*Not that I have a strong opinion on the matter* 😉

[tessat]

On 9/19/2019 at 8:04 PM, marinaalexis said:

I'm sorry, but I just can't get behind that one bit. I've already explained why they couldn't just leave. Kelly's lawsuit was even thrown out because Lifetime's lawyers were able to have all evidence from the show made inadmissible in court. And I'm not sure what magical editing you think was going on here, but I saw with my own eyes Abby screaming that Chloe is a sneak and a snake, and I saw with my own eyes that child holding herself as she sobbed in the hallway. What kind of editing made that happen? They somehow took separate snippets of Abby saying each individual word, edited them together, and edited the footage so it looked like her mouth was moving in the exact same way? 

And I've said it once and I'll say it again - I don't care how "well known" the kids became from the show. That means absolutely nothing in the face of years of mistreatment and it's completely irrelevant, I have no idea why you keep bringing it up. Abby Lee Miller has been a child abuser for years, and I am beyond sick of the constant justifications and denial surrounding her disgusting mistreatment of all of those children.

We have no idea what went on behind the scenes - you are taking everything portrayed at face value. If you watch youtube - many of the scenes aren't what they appear to be - they'll take a comment someone said at 8 am and mesh it into a whole different situation that is talked about at 8 pm.

Jojo not only took a lot of flack from Abby on AUDC - but also on Dancemoms and yet the  girl is more successful and positive than any of the others - why - because most of it is made up - just like the Dance competitions and award ceremonies. I know in the beginning Abby wasn't as verbal but then production told her to ramp it up - don't think the parents didn't know about it and I'm sure the kids were talked to too but they were young and didn't understand. From reports I've seen Abby was strict but everyone loved her before the show began - she was like a 2nd mother to all of them.

[meatball77]

I think that less was made up in the early years, and those kids didn't know what they were getting into as opposed to the kids currently on the show.  It's very telling that none of the original cast members have relationships with Abby anymore, even Maddy.

[Tikichick]

On 9/27/2019 at 3:41 PM, meatball77 said:

I think that less was made up in the early years, and those kids didn't know what they were getting into as opposed to the kids currently on the show.  It's very telling that none of the original cast members have relationships with Abby anymore, even Maddy.

Except JoJo -- albeit not an original cast member, still part of the original run of the show.

Then again, when your brand is largely based on an image of being the nice girl it's pretty savvy to publicly be seen and acknowledged as the only one on good terms with Abby.