BTVS Love/Relationships

[Melancholy]

On 9/30/2018 at 2:46 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

I love it when people treat inferences as facts. Willow never got the necessary affirmation from Tara? Says who? We only see brief glimpses of the characters' lives. And it's not like Tara can really give Willow affirmation about keeping secrets from other people anyway. I bet if Tara had said Willow had nothing to feel guilty about, the author would have attacked her for being presumptuous and not understanding the deep bond between Willow and Buffy.

Maybe Tara was less forceful the first 5999 times but Willow refused to listen, which necessitated the many repetitions? Nah, can't be, let's insist on the worst interpretation.

Except for the small detail that this never happened, Tara merely said that not being allowed to help with the Scooby stuff might be tough for Dawn. She never said anything about this treatment being wrong.

Or, you know, the writers never bothered to distinguish between witch and wiccan, so making it all about religion is a little silly.

Oh, and now we are criticizing Tara for calling Buffy boinking Spike nuts? Yes, that's enough for me. Too much misrepresentation of the facts to make Tara look as bad as possible.

I am sunclouds33 on LJ. It was my essay. 

I still think it was Tara's duty to reassure Willow about coming out and how she did it. I don't see how Willow keeping secrets from Buffy, but not Tara is relevant. According to Spike's lies, it was Willow and Buffy supposedly making fun of Xander as a directionless loser. It still fell on Anya AS THE GIRLFRIEND to reassure Xander about that in Primeval, even though she wasn't the one accused of making fun of Xander behind his back. That's part of the work of being a girlfriend/boyfriend- reassuring your loved one as they go through intense life stuff- like coming out as gay to friends. I suppose I could write a scene in my head of Tara reassuring and validating Willow's feelings about coming out because the writers of the show didn't bother to give Tara such a scene. 

However, I think it would run contrary to what we saw on the screen. What I got from Tara is that she assumed Willow was overreacting in her fears that her friends wouldn't accept her and irritation that she wasn't introduced fast enough and complete blank-wall indifference to Willow's sadness that she and Buffy don't feel like real roommates now. That's plenty of Tara reacting to Willow predicament without sympathy or validation of her feelings. 

Same with the teleportation spells. Why do I have to write scenes of Tara being nice in my head? The on-screen scene was clear. Willow was suffering headaches because she was practicing the same maneuver that imperfectly saved everyone's life from Glory. Tara was mean to Willow about that and offered no help but a scolding instead. Got it. 

I'm very anti-Spuffy. Still think Buffy would be more than entitled to empathy if she was fucking Spike several weeks after Joyce died instead of her friends calling her "nuts" behind her back. Heck, I think Buffy's Heaaaven angst is a non-problem but I have empathy for Buffy sleeping with Spike in S6 on the level that she was acting out sexually because of her other real problems (Joyce dead, Giles gone, money problems) creating depression. Still think Willow should have been allowed to express that empathy and deeper concern for her best friend without her own girlfriend mocking her with "What are you kidding? She's nuts." 

[Jack Shaftoe]

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Same with the teleportation spells. Why do I have to write scenes of Tara being nice in my head?

You don't have to write anything but your assumption on how the previous 5,999 times Tara tried to convince Willow must have gone isn't any more valid than mine, that's all I am saying.

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Still think Buffy would be more than entitled to empathy if she was fucking Spike several weeks after Joyce died instead of her friends calling her "nuts" behind her back.

Sleeping with the serial killer/rapist who tried to kidnap you mere weeks ago is nuts. But calling it so doesn't mean you can't have empathy for Buffy. After all, she wasn't even in that scene. Saying that Tara mocked Willow with that remark is a pretty radical interpretation of the text, IMO.

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That's part of the work of being a girlfriend/boyfriend- reassuring your loved one as they go through intense life stuff- like coming out as gay to friends.

Considering that the writers weren't even allowed to use the words gay or lesbian in their scripts or have Tara and Willow kiss on screen at that point, it's hardly surprising that they opted not to show such a conversation on screen. I am sure they could have written some conversation full with hints and allusions like the one between Buffy and Willow in New Moon Rising but why is this so important when we didn't see so much of the development of the relationship between Tara and Willow in S4 and the issue was between Buffy and Willow anyway?

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎03‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 9:48 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

You don't have to write anything but your assumption on how the previous 5,999 times Tara tried to convince Willow must have gone isn't any more valid than mine, that's all I am saying.

Sleeping with the serial killer/rapist who tried to kidnap you mere weeks ago is nuts. But calling it so doesn't mean you can't have empathy for Buffy. After all, she wasn't even in that scene. Saying that Tara mocked Willow with that remark is a pretty radical interpretation of the text, IMO.

Considering that the writers weren't even allowed to use the words gay or lesbian in their scripts or have Tara and Willow kiss on screen at that point, it's hardly surprising that they opted not to show such a conversation on screen. I am sure they could have written some conversation full with hints and allusions like the one between Buffy and Willow in New Moon Rising but why is this so important when we didn't see so much of the development of the relationship between Tara and Willow in S4 and the issue was between Buffy and Willow anyway?

Amazing to think how things have changed in only a couple of decades?

[Halting Hex]

On 10/3/2018 at 2:04 PM, Melancholy said:

I am sunclouds33 on LJ. It was my essay. 

Wow, it really says something about my comprehension skills that I read the further exchanges between you and Jack (they both appeared between my visits to this thread) and yet failed to scan up all the way and see this crucial sentence.  Thank you very much for your work.

On 9/30/2018 at 2:19 PM, Halting Hex said:

A rather pity summary is this bit

And apparently my typing skills are right up (down?) there with my comprehension.  I meant "pithy", of course.  Yeesh.

[Pallas]

In the Homecoming thread, @Halting Hex posted (of Buffy)

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But, like Xander, she's too protective of Willow to admit her own feelings immediately.  (It took him at least 13 years, after all.)

Protective feelings invoke the incest taboo? Infantilize the object? Or do you mean that Buffy and Xander each felt, for different reasons, that Willow needed protecting from what she or he could offer as a lover?

[Halting Hex]

Incest taboo?  Neither Buffy nor Xander was related to Willow.

3 hours ago, Pallas said:

Or do you mean that Buffy and Xander each felt, for different reasons, that Willow needed protecting from what she or he could offer as a lover?

This is nearer the mark.  Xander, because of his horrible home life, on some level fears turning into Tony and hurting his "Jessica".  So he doesn't see himself as a suitor to best buddy Willow ("Which makes her not the kind of girl whose lips I think about so much.  She's the kind of girl that…I'm best friends with") and more naturally attracted to sarcasm machines like Cordelia and Anya (because he can't hurt them, he thinks) and Slayers (because he really can't hurt them), even though he's working through his feelings to Willow, and coming to realize that he loves her as more than a best friend.  (Perhaps it's notable that he makes his admission when Willow has already been grievously injured and Xander knows he isn't responsible, his own fears aside.)  But at least at first, he'd rather make sure Willow is okay ("Nobody messes with my Willow."  "All I'm saying is, she's not safe with him.") than admit his own interest.

Buffy is of course coming at it from a slightly different angle, as it will take her until S8 to admit her own bisexual impulses (Judi Dench? Really, Buffy?) and she has enough heteronormative indoctrination that she never suspects Willow might also incline that way, what with Will being painfully in love with Xander and all of that.  (Note the awkward and confused "Will"-fest when Willow finally 'fesses up about Tara.)  But even though she doesn't wear her self-esteem issues on her arm the way Xander does (no dreams about Joyce murdering her, and Joyce always knows who it is when she calls home), that doesn't mean she doesn't have them.  

Remember that Buffy, when we meet her in the series, has already been expelled from her first school.  She's the reason they had to move to Sunnydale (as Joyce is "kind" enough to remind her) and, she worries, the reason for her parents' divorce.  She's been indoctrinated that she has to keep a significant part of her life a secret (metaphor!) and that came from Merrick, who ends up dead because she wasn't able to protect him.  And so do a good portion of her Hemery High friends.  To quote Cordelia (about Buffy's angst on this show), "it makes a girl shy."  No duh, CC.

And so Buffy is kind of a mess, breezy S1 manner and ready supply of lollipops aside.  And when she does have a subtext-laden conversation with her new friend Willow ("Seize the moment"), what happens?  It nearly gets Willow killed, which would be all Buffy's fault, she thinks:

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GILES:  What's she [Willow] doing?

BUFFY:  Seizing the moment.

So Buffy at first seems not particularly interested in anybody, and then gets swept up by the older, mysterious guy (after ditching Owen because her life would be too dangerous for him…), and soon enough gets killed by her extremely-dangerous job, is expelled again, is responsible for the deaths of people close to her, and gets kicked out of her house after metaphorically "coming out" to her mom. (And she "kills" her boyfriend, sending him to centuries of suffering in a hell-dimension.) 

So even though she might be able to pick up on what Faith's putting down, on some level, she's a good distance from having the confidence to go "seize ME, Willow" and mess up her bff's life the way she's damaged so many others.  But JMO.

Edited November 4, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

OK, here's my list. The order is very intentional.

Canon relationships I generally like

1. Giles/Jenny;
2. Buffy/Riley;

Canon relationships I neither like nor dislike. Kinda indifferent.

1. Willow/Tara;
2. Buffy/Angel;
3. Willow/Kennedy;

Canon relationships I hate/despise/resent.

1. Xander/Anya;
2. Buffy/Spike;
3. Willow/Oz;
4. Xander/Cordelia;

Non-canon relationships I like and would be happy to see if it wasn't for writers' mischievousness.

1. Xander/Willow;
2. Buffy/Faith;
3. Dawn/Janice;
4. Dawn/Amanda;
5. Wesley/Cordelia;
6. Cordelia/Giles;
7. Giles/Tara;
8. Xander/Amy;
9. Xander/Beth;
10. Joyce/Dracula;
11. Buffy/Forrest;
12. Anya/Spike.

[Halting Hex]

Xillow's canon.  We got smoochies, as Buffy notes.  

And at least one romantic "I love you" declaration; Willow's reciprocation in The Zeppo was somewhat ambiguous, I'll allow, but (given Consequences) it's at least open to interpretation, I'd argue.  I mean, Riley would have been ecstatic to have gotten that from Buffy, after all.

Yes, it's only three kisses (and anklesex), and the relationship only lasts for four episodes. (Plus the vampiric coda in The Wish.) But that's the same number Giles and Jenny got, and one of those was a Drusilla-driven illusion.  And trust me, it's a lot different from being firmly stuck in UC-land, as I am with Wiffy. Sigh.

(Not sure that Spankya is non-canon, either.  They may only have had sex the once, but she spent a good portion of S7 begging him for more and complaining that he wouldn't take her up on the offer.  If that's not a "relationship", it's pretty close, IMO.)

[lembergwatcher]

I don't think we can call smoochies or sporadic "I love you's" something of a relationship. Not to mention casual sex. Though I agree Riley would have been over the top to hear those words from Buffy, while both romantic mass murderers came pretty close to starting an actual relationship.
You may have a point here, but when I say "canon relationship", I mean in "the-established-couples" kind of way.

[Dee]

Xander/Cordelia is/was wonderful imo. It was a big mistake to lose that ship.

[Halting Hex]

Well, then should we call Spuffy a "relationship"?  Yes, lots of sex, but they never established themselves as a "couple" and Buffy doesn't make any romantic statements there, either.

Still, I suppose it's all subjective.  Buffy and Parker openly dated, had sex, and Buffy was emotionally affected for at least a few episodes afterwards, so…

And of course, Spike/Drusilla went on for all of S2 (and decades, pre-show), but neither of them was main cast, so I don't know if that's a disqualification, there.  (Spike's living with and boning Harmony for the first half of S5 and he is main cast, though.  Hmm.)

Edited December 16, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

31 minutes ago, Dee said:

Xander/Cordelia is/was wonderful imo. It was a big mistake to lose that ship.

Maybe it was and maybe my dislike of CC clouds my judgement. OTOH that 'ship was lost because the writers wanted Cordelia to make it big in several ways. I mean, she couldn't have become an agent of the Powers That Be while dating a "loser",  and Xander surely was no match for Angel, Doyle, Groosalugg or Connor. And that guy who got her pregnant in Expecting.

I've never lamented the loss of Xordelia since Cordy was sort of dead to me post-The Zeppo.

[lembergwatcher]

31 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

should we call Spuffy a "relationship"?

As much as I love any display of X/W affection I've never thought of their smoochies in S.03 as a canon relationship. While the series' later seasons were so polluted with Spuffy, I couldn't help but see the whole mess as a "couple".
And yes, it's all subjective.

[Joe Hellandback]

22 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

OK, here's my list. The order is very intentional.

Canon relationships I generally like

1. Giles/Jenny;
2. Buffy/Riley;

Canon relationships I neither like nor dislike. Kinda indifferent.

1. Willow/Tara;
2. Buffy/Angel;
3. Willow/Kennedy;

Canon relationships I hate/despise/resent.

1. Xander/Anya;
2. Buffy/Spike;
3. Willow/Oz;
4. Xander/Cordelia;

Non-canon relationships I like and would be happy to see if it wasn't for writers' mischievousness.

1. Xander/Willow;
2. Buffy/Faith;
3. Dawn/Janice;
4. Dawn/Amanda;
5. Wesley/Cordelia;
6. Cordelia/Giles;
7. Giles/Tara;
8. Xander/Amy;
9. Xander/Beth;
10. Joyce/Dracula;
11. Buffy/Forrest;
12. Anya/Spike.

A Biley fan? We may not see another one in our lifetime! Like Damanda though and a firm believer in Bacula AND Jacula. Not sure I believe in Borrest, always got a more Filey feel.  

17 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Xillow's canon.  We got smoochies, as Buffy notes.  

And at least one romantic "I love you" declaration; Willow's reciprocation in The Zeppo was somewhat ambiguous, I'll allow, but (given Consequences) it's at least open to interpretation, I'd argue.  I mean, Riley would have been ecstatic to have gotten that from Buffy, after all.

Yes, it's only three kisses (and anklesex), and the relationship only lasts for four episodes. (Plus the vampiric coda in The Wish.) But that's the same number Giles and Jenny got, and one of those was a Drusilla-driven illusion.  And trust me, it's a lot different from being firmly stuck in UC-land, as I am with Wiffy. Sigh.

(Not sure that Spankya is non-canon, either.  They may only have had sex the once, but she spent a good portion of S7 begging him for more and complaining that he wouldn't take her up on the offer.  If that's not a "relationship", it's pretty close, IMO.)

That we see on screen, although it's clear Faith and Oz are the first to go ye gods with them. I like the idea of naughty snuggling between them with at least some rounding second action.  

11 hours ago, Dee said:

Xander/Cordelia is/was wonderful imo. It was a big mistake to lose that ship.

But we had CC grow on Angel and Cangel?

11 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Well, then should we call Spuffy a "relationship"?  Yes, lots of sex, but they never established themselves as a "couple" and Buffy doesn't make any romantic statements there, either.

Still, I suppose it's all subjective.  Buffy and Parker openly dated, had sex, and Buffy was emotionally affected for at least a few episodes afterwards, so…

And of course, Spike/Drusilla went on for all of S2 (and decades, pre-show), but neither of them was main cast, so I don't know if that's a disqualification, there.  (Spike's living with and boning Harmony for the first half of S5 and he is main cast, though.  Hmm.)

 

Never a relationship (at least not for Buffy), it was a fling. 

Edited December 16, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

A Biley fan? We may not see another one in our lifetime!

I am not their fan. It's just that particular 'ship is so much less repulsive than everything else Buffy had. Riley was better than Angel (with Corn-fed Iowa Boy she could have enjoyed picnics in broad daylight, after all) and sooooooo much better than Spike.

 

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Not sure I believe in Borrest

If we were subjected to Xanya torture for three and a half seasons, Borrest would've been way more fun to watch.

[Halting Hex]

Forrffy probably wouldn't have worked long-term, since they're too similar (both the overachieving brat in their respective groups, and don't forget that Forrest is the youngest of the Initiative trio) and their tempers would have been a problem, no doubt. 

But as far as interracial 'ships, I'll easily take it over Giles/Olivia.  (If you're going to date someone that young, "Ripper", could she at least have the basic math skills to see through your "Pink Floyd" fib?  You were nine when Floyd formed in 1965!)  And it does leave space for Willow/Riley, who allegedly had such chemistry in the aired episodes that an order came down to keep them away from each other, so that it wouldn't overshadow the canon B/R pairing.

Not to mention the heavy-handed (pardon the pun) tactic of having a drugged-up Riley roughly shove Willow in Goodbye, Iowa, as a way to discourage interest in the 'ship.  (At least the Spud apologizes in the following ep, whereas Xander's still waiting for Angel to show some remorse about that "good cause" sucker-punch in Enemies.)

Wait, if Buffy's dating Forrest and Willow's dating Riley, does that mean we have to find someone for Graham? I suppose there is the "Anyone but Anya" argument, but I don't know if Xander would be willing to "switch teams" just to dump the (ex-) demon. Hmm.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

we have to find someone for Graham

Well, if we assume Tara is actually bi, we can bring her and Graham together. Anya will date Professor Walsh, while Xander can choose Amy in case Willow turns her back into human.

[lembergwatcher]

Although many people like to claim couples and relationships were the best thing about Buffy, I believe the opposite.
To me the vast majority of those so-called relationships were the series' achilles heel or whatever. Mainly because they rarely evoked something good in all the characters involved. Pardon my naiveté, but love (in the broader sense of word) can't just make one do the wacky, it's supposed to make one somewhat better person. And that unfortunately was never the case as far as most BtVS relationships are concerned. No wonder, that by the time the series finale aired all the main characters ended up barely resembling their older selves. Most obvious examples of "love makes you act like an asshole" principle at work happen to be, of course, Spuffy and Xanya. Does anyone of you really believe both Xander and Buffy became better characters after making their fatal choices? Which Buffy do you prefer: the one from the first two seasons or the one from the last two seasons? Do you think Xander whose world revolved around the selfish, ill-mannered and extremely annoying hellbitch was somehow superior to the one who was ready to give his life to, say, save his friends from Mummy Girl, psychotic vampire or zombie gang? And while I can cut Spuffy some slack since Buffy was never one of my favorites, I find it hard to forgive Whedon and the rest for what they did to Xander by making him fall for the woman who sometimes made Harmony look great.

I hate all those stupid "couples" for taking more and more screen time with every passing season thus eventually leading to the demise of the Scooby Gang as we knew it and came to love. That's why I will always place season 1 above all post-Becoming, Part 2 seasons: no annoying "couples" and B, W & X are the best friends in the whole world. As a fan, I can easily survive without Bangel angst, Willow/Tara sugary scenes, wretched Xanya or Spuffy which was wrong in so many ways. Yet I find it hard to watch the show and still love it when it lacks the first thing that made it great - the amazing frienship between Buffy and her Slayerettes. It continues to bug me how the writers were so willing (or criminally insane for lack of better word) to throw that under the bus in favor of the "relationships" that proved to be disasters in the making and failed miserably.

Edited December 17, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[lembergwatcher]

The main reason I dislike most of the so-called canon Buffyverse relationships lies in the writers' firm conviction that everyone must love/date his or her own kind, i.e. every extraordinary character has to adhere strictly to some imaginary rule of being in relationship/love with other supernatural type.

Therefore, sorry Xander or Riley, but the Slayer doesn't need puny humans like you by her side. She needs monsters to be her men - presumably the ones who sleep through the day and hate sunbathinng. Once again, sorry, Xander, but Willow is a gifted witch and Oz is... well, not a superpowered type in a literal sense, but not your average Joe either. So, no place for ya here, boy. And, of course, God forbid Willow starts dating anyone other than another powerful witch or a powerful (Potential) Slayer. Do I need to remind you Xordelia and Xanya happened solely because Cordy didn't have her super powers at the moment, while Anya has already lost hers. 

I don't know why Joss and the rest decided to follow that stupid "powerful date powerful/powerless date powerless" rule no matter what. Claiming that, say, Willow can't be in relationship with Xander on the grounds that she happens to be a witch while Xander has no supernatural gift of his own (sexual orientation aside) is like claiming people with different skin colour cannot fall in love, date or marry each other IMO.

For a show supposed to celebrate and promote equality, diversity and breaking down the barriers I find such rules or whatever to be very odd at best and totally hypocritical at worst.

[Halting Hex]

On the other hand, Xander and Anya did seem to go on (and on, and on…) regardless of whether she was powered, de-powered, demon, human, a sodding breadbox, whatever.  So it's not quite as consistent as that.

And do we really just discount Buffy's relationships with Scott, Parker and Riley just because they "didn't last"?  I mean, it's not as though she ended up with Angel or Spike, either.  She's cookie dough, y'all!  And hey, at least Riley didn't burn to death…

[lembergwatcher]

On 12/16/2018 at 6:15 PM, Halting Hex said:

And it does leave space for Willow/Riley, who allegedly had such chemistry in the aired episodes that an order came down to keep them away from each other, so that it wouldn't overshadow the canon B/R pairing.

Was chemistry the main reason W/X were compelled to interact as little as possible after the first half of season 3 as well? What if Joss & Co thought Xillow could overshadow the canon pairings in one way or another too? Maybe I'm wrong here but even though X & W tried really hard to persuade everyone they loved their significant others, sometimes I had an impression both did that mostly out of obligation while their hearts weren't totally in it (this was particularly true throughout season sux IMO). 

[Joe Hellandback]

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

Was chemistry the main reason W/X were compelled to interact as little as possible after the first half of season 3 as well? What if Joss & Co thought Xillow could overshadow the canon pairings in one way or another too? Maybe I'm wrong here but even though X & W tried really hard to persuade everyone they loved their significant others, sometimes I had an impression both did that mostly out of obligation while their hearts weren't totally in it (this was particularly true throughout season sux IMO). 

I must say I never saw it?

[lembergwatcher]

5 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I must say I never saw it?

Oh yeah, because Xander was gleaming with joy while awaiting his doom, i.e. so-called "wedding", and I didn't know whether to yawn or cry watching all those Willow/Tara post-Tabula Rasa interactions, may the LGBT community forgive me...

[Halting Hex]

On 2/17/2019 at 8:53 AM, lembergwatcher said:

sorry, Xander, but Willow is a gifted witch and Oz is... well, not a superpowered type in a literal sense, but not your average Joe either.

To be fairer than possibly need be, when the show starts trying to sell us on Woz ("who's that girl?", animal crackers and such), his chin is hairier than his back and the only spell she's ever even seen is Cather!Amy attacking her and Xander.  It's guitarist and non-groupie, a plot device to get Xander to "wake up and smell the hottie"*, nothing about "power"…at least as yet.

*-perverse Wiffy thought:  are all of Buffy's senses enhanced, not just her night vision? When she's hanging with Willow, is she subtly taking a sweet little Wiff of the redhead's natural female scents? Does BFF time involve a little aroma of Jew-dew for Buff? Mmmmm…

More canonically, thinking that Oz was originally intended as a spur (not an impediment) towards Xillow makes me even more annoyed that they cut the "I would have taken a bullet for you!" scene from Surprise.  I know, I know, Marti wrote a 90-minute teleplay and something (actually about a dozen somethings) had to go, but still.

[Halting Hex]

38 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

all those Willow/Tara post-Tabula Rasa interactions

They interacted a whopping three times in the next nine episodes (through Normal Again) the awkward meeting on the street in Dead Show, the awkward meeting at Buffy's house in Older and Slower Than Dirt, and the bridesmaid moments in Hell's Belles.  I mean, I was wishing Tara would leave town so Willow could get on with her life, too (and fervently hoping the obvious "Tara dies, Willow goes evil" hints were false)…but I can't say we were actually drowning in W/T then, as any bitter Kitten could no doubt also attest.

Edited June 13, 2019 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

On 6/13/2019 at 7:12 PM, Halting Hex said:

when the show starts trying to sell us on Woz ("who's that girl?", animal crackers and such), his chin is hairier than his back and the only spell she's ever even seen is Cather!Amy attacking her and Xander.  It's guitarist and non-groupie, a plot device to get Xander to "wake up and smell the hottie"*, nothing about "power"…at least as yet.

Well, it wasn't about the power back in season 2, but it did look like it was in season 3.

[lembergwatcher]

And even though Willoz wasn't about the power at the very beginning, they were nevertheless shown as quite extraordinary teens, I must say. Judging from the way they met in What's My Line, Part 1... Some leading software company was clearly interested in two wonder kids. Computer genius vs prison guard? You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know who'll win in the end. 

[Are there ary fanfics about W/O ending up in prison where Xander works as a warden? Stripsearching Oz is sure as hell not in the top 5 of Xander's dreams but Willow?.. That's another case...]

Willow should have met Anya or Kennedy back in '97 so they could give her a master class in how to win the boy. No, she didn't have to undress in front of Xander and beg him to remove his clothing, but asking the guy out for coffee could've been a decent beginning... 

Most fans, media and fanfiction writers continue to claim Oz was the "best" for Willow. But I do not remember anyone bothering with explaining why and how. Just like I can't recall any coherent arguments why exactly would Xillow have "never worked". It's not as if either X/W or the audience were ever given a chance to test that theory (like, say, Dawson and Joey together with Creek's viewers). The "fluke" that many cite as a proof of their "never Xillow" bullshit, doesn't count since it wasn't a relationship in the strict sense of the term. Therefore we have zero evidence to strengthen the "X/W can only be friends and nothing more" crowd's claims... JMO, of course.

Btw, funny how Willow was given an opportunity to date three completely different persons (taciturn and relaxed Oz, shy and sanctimonious Tara, confident and agressive Kennedy) while Xander remained stuck with the corpse ghost of Cordelia for the remainder of the series. Anya was just  a sloppy watered down version of Queen Bitch of Sunnydale High with all the sarcasm and stuff. Because, God forbid, Xander gets a chance to meet someone different and have more or less happy relationship. Sigh.

[Halting Hex]

7 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

No, [Willow] didn't have to undress in front of Xander and beg him to remove his clothing,

You did see BB&B, right?  I think Willow pretty much had those moves covered.

And Anya never did any ear-sucking that I saw.  Too much like foreplay; our "favorite" ex-ex-ex-ex-demon doesn't seem to be "much for the pre-show", any more than her pal, Spike.  But JMO.

[lembergwatcher]

Why couldn't Willow start sucking Xander's ear after taking off that shirt?

[Halting Hex]

Because the WB is not Cinemax.  Not that Bob Flutie ever bothered to check out the difference.  (Ah, Bob!  The disappointments of a life unlived.)

[lembergwatcher]

Since the vast majority of "canon" Buffyverse relationships suck and are uninspiring (well, maybe except for Willow/Xander & Fred/Gunn), I assume some crossover 'ships may improve the situation in the L.O.V.E. department. So if any of you had a chance to create a crossover between BtVS and other TV show/s, what kind of pairings would you prefer?

Here's my humble attempt to save Buffy characters from destructive relationships they're in within the boundaries of the Buffyverse by 'shipping them with some characters from the outside. True, pairings are by no means perfect, yet that's still better than have your favorite characters date either someone you dislike (Xander/Cordelia, Xander/Anya, Willow/Oz) or someone you don't care too much about (Willow/Tara, Willow/Kennedy)

Buffy:

• Buffy/Killian "Hook" Jones (Once Upon a Time);
• Buffy/Philip "The Governor" Blake (The Walking Dead);
• Buffy/Ethan Chandler (Penny Dreadful);
• Buffy/Dorian Gray (Penny Dreadful).

Giles:

• Giles/Ethan Chandler (Penny Dreadful);
• Giles/Rumplestiltskin (Once Upon a Time);
• Giles/Fez (That '70s Show);
• Giles/Steven Hyde (That '70s Show);
• Giles/Sizling Sarah (That '70s Show);
• Giles/Eileen "Candy" Merrell (The Deuce)

Oz:

• Oz/Ethan Chandler (Penny Dreadful);
• Oz/Ruby "Red Riding Hood" Lucas (Once Upon a Time).

Faith:

• Faith/Daryl Dixon (The Walking Dead);
• Faith/Rosita Espinosa (The Walking Dead);
• Faith/Ruth Langmore (Ozark);
• Faith/Lucas Hood (Banshee).

Willow:

• Willow/Tara Chambler (The Walking Dead);
• Willow/Ruby "Red Riding Hood" Lucas (Once Upon a Time);
• Willow/Xena (Xena: Warrior Princess).

Angel:

• Angel/Dorian Gray (Penny Dreadful).

Spike:

• Spike/Hecate Poole (Penny Dreadful);
• Spike/Bart Curlish (Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency).

Tara:

• Tara/Prue Halliwell (Charmed).

Dawn:

• Dawn/Jenny Humphrey (Gossip Girl).

Xander:

• Xander/Amanda Brotzman (Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency).

Edited August 13, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[Joe Hellandback]

On 8/13/2019 at 1:55 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Since the vast majority of "canon" Buffyverse relationships suck and are uninspiring (well, maybe except for Willow/Xander & Fred/Gunn), I assume some crossover 'ships may improve the situation in the L.O.V.E. department. So if any of you had a chance to create a crossover between BtVS and other TV show/s, what kind of pairings would you prefer?

Here's my humble attempt to save Buffy characters from destructive relationships they're in within the boundaries of the Buffyverse by 'shipping them with some characters from the outside. True, pairings are by no means perfect, yet that's still better than have your favorite characters date either someone you dislike (Xander/Cordelia, Xander/Anya, Willow/Oz) or someone you don't care too much about (Willow/Tara, Willow/Kennedy)

Buffy:

• Buffy/Killian "Hook" Jones (Once Upon a Time);
• Buffy/Philip "The Governor" Blake (The Walking Dead);
• Buffy/Ethan Chandler (Penny Dreadful);
• Buffy/Dorian Gray (Penny Dreadful).

Giles:

• Giles/Ethan Chandler (Penny Dreadful);
• Giles/Rumplestiltskin (Once Upon a Time);
• Giles/Fez (That '70s Show);
• Giles/Steven Hyde (That '70s Show);
• Giles/Sizling Sarah (That '70s Show);
• Giles/Eileen "Candy" Merrell (The Deuce)

Oz:

• Oz/Ethan Chandler (Penny Dreadful);
• Oz/Ruby "Red Riding Hood" Lucas (Once Upon a Time).

Faith:

• Faith/Daryl Dixon (The Walking Dead);
• Faith/Rosita Espinosa (The Walking Dead);
• Faith/Ruth Langmore (Ozark);
• Faith/Lucas Hood (Banshee).

Willow:

• Willow/Tara Chambler (The Walking Dead);
• Willow/Ruby "Red Riding Hood" Lucas (Once Upon a Time);
• Willow/Xena (Xena: Warrior Princess).

Angel:

• Angel/Dorian Gray (Penny Dreadful).

Spike:

• Spike/Hecate Poole (Penny Dreadful);
• Spike/Bart Curlish (Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency).

Tara:

• Tara/Prue Halliwell (Charmed).

Dawn:

• Dawn/Jenny Humphrey (Gossip Girl).

Xander:

• Xander/Amanda Brotzman (Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency).

Buffy; The Doctor (Doctor Who, she does love older men)

Giles; Dana Scully (The X Files)

Xander; Kara Danvers (Supergirl)

Willow; Winn (Supergirl)

Dawn; Bruce Wayne (Gotham)

Oz;; Selina Kyle (Gotham)

CC; Raj (the Big Bang Theory)

Joyce; Alfred Pennyworth (Gotham)

Tara; Alex Danvers (Supergirl)

Angel; Olivia Benson (L&O; SVU)

Faith; Eve Baxter (Last Man Standing)

[lembergwatcher]

I cannot say I agree with every single conclusion, but... The so-called Fluke seems to be a bad joke invented solely to both justify CC's transferring to the spin-off and create an impression that W/X was a purely hormonal thing induced by formal wear, i.e. to unravel one of the important story arcs of the first two seasons.

Why I Hate the Fluke 

https://parcae-lj.livejournal.com/6258.html

[Halting Hex]

A "W/Xer" who apparently thinks it's ridiculous for Xander to be physically attracted to Willow, huh?  Odd.

Did he miss the entirety of Season 2, from the near-kiss in When She Was Bad to his calling her "sexy" in BB&B to his declaring his love in Becoming, Part 2?  A pity…those were rather good episodes.  Strange of Xan to get all jealous about Willoz if he isn't into the girl himself, I'd think.  I mean, his own girlfriend does complain that he's so obsessed with Willow (and Buffy) that "it's like I don't even exist!" (Phases)

The attempt to blame it all on the clothes is silly, but perhaps understandable in that Xillow didn't want to consider the larger implications of their attraction.  For viewers to buy into this "explanation" and then inveigh against it in such a manner is…less understandable, IMO.

As for "Spike knew about W/T before Xander did!" complaints, first of all, Spike knew perhaps a few hours before Xander finds out; it's not as if X spent months wandering in some clueless idiocy (as with Spuffy, two years later).  And Spike made an inspired deduction; Xander certainly had the opportunity to do the same.  

Instead Willow tells him, while she never does tell Spike.*  So it's not as if Willow cut him out of the loop, or anything.  (Giles had far more reason to complain about not being clued in about Riley's membership in the Initiative than Xander has cause to gripe here.)

*—Indeed, I wonder when, if ever, Willow thinks Spike learned about her and Tara.  She doesn't tell him, he isn't present for any of her "gay now!" or "breast girl" declarations, he's not in the hospital when she's caring for Tara in late S5 or in Willow's dorm room when Tara is rambling on about half-camels or telling the Watchers "we're lovers!".  (Perhaps if Will knew about Lydia's crush on Spike, she'd think the WC had spilled the beans?)

I suppose there's the general idea that Spike might have puzzled it out during the argument with the Maclays in Family, but Joss (for whatever reason) couched that discussion in the same "witch stuff" terms Spike had used to feign ignorance with in The Yoko Factor, so I don't know why Willow would think he was more intimately aware of her intimacies in October than he'd been in May.

[lembergwatcher]

On 12/13/2019 at 7:49 AM, Halting Hex said:

Indeed, I wonder when, if ever, Willow thinks Spike learned about her and Tara.

Well, not only Oz is gifted with the super nose. Spike could have learned just by smelling both girls all over each other. Like Angel told Lilah in Ground State.

Quote

ANGEL
You know what I find interesting? The fact that I can smell you and Wesley all over each other.

[Halting Hex]

Yeah, but when Oz used the SuperNose, Tara was actually wearing Willow's sweater, so he might have just been misled.  I don't think Wesley and Lilah were swapping clothing, so Angel might have had an easier path.

As for more-intimate scents, I think W/T know how to shower.  Well, we know Willow does…Buffy wouldn't go looking for her in the gym showers in I Robot, You Jane if she thought Willow didn't wash.  And, to be fair, even Donny and Beth seem to have mastered the concept, so I don't think Redneck Flats is still in the chamber-pot era.

[lembergwatcher]

8 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I think W/T know how to shower

What if they didn't get cleaned up before coming across Spike once (due to some emergency) and that was enough?

[slf]

Having romantic feelings for someone should make you a better person but they often don't. So I don't hold it against the show that the characters never seemed to have a Jerry Maguire epiphany. My issue with most of the ships is that they were more often than not poorly thought out and often involved a lot of shitty things like attempted rape or mind control.

And IIRC they wrote Oz off the show not because supernatural and normal can never be together but because the actor wanted to do other projects.

[Joe Hellandback]

On 1/10/2020 at 5:52 AM, slf said:

Having romantic feelings for someone should make you a better person but they often don't. So I don't hold it against the show that the characters never seemed to have a Jerry Maguire epiphany. My issue with most of the ships is that they were more often than not poorly thought out and often involved a lot of shitty things like attempted rape or mind control.

And IIRC they wrote Oz off the show not because supernatural and normal can never be together but because the actor wanted to do other projects.

And I sympathise, it was hard to see where Oz would have gone as a character?

[lembergwatcher]

On 1/11/2020 at 8:21 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

And I sympathise, it was hard to see where Oz would have gone as a character?

Where would he go "as a character" if the chump's sole purpose on the show was to play nice and perfect Willow's boyfriend - a complete antithesis to "bad" Xander? Once Willow decided she's into girls, there wasn't really a place for him left.

On 1/10/2020 at 7:52 AM, slf said:

My issue with most of the ships is that they were more often than not poorly thought out and often involved a lot of shitty things like attempted rape or mind control.

While BtVs has always been good at portraying friendship, it really sucked when it came to love and relationships. There are many reasons for that, I guess, including the old "there's no such thing as happy and lasting relationship" cliche. Therefore Team Joss had to break those couples up time after time - even for the stupidest reasons.  

[Joe Hellandback]

9 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Where would he go "as a character" if the chump's sole purpose on the show was to play nice and perfect Willow's boyfriend - a complete antithesis to "bad" Xander? Once Willow decided she's into girls, there wasn't really a place for him left.

While BtVs has always been good at portraying friendship, it really sucked when it came to love and relationships. There are many reasons for that, I guess, including the old "there's no such thing as happy and lasting relationship" cliche. Therefore Team Joss had to break those couples up time after time - even for the stupidest reasons.  

Maybe Offy? He has a little of Pike about him. 

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Maybe Offy?

Not enough monster in the man.

[Joe Hellandback]

9 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Not enough monster in the man.

Don't know, he ticks all her boxes (older, supernatural evil side etc) except for height?

[lembergwatcher]

37 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Don't know, he ticks all her boxes (older, supernatural evil side etc) except for height?

Even if he does, he's still no match for those of Buffy's (boy)friends who "sleep all day and have no tans". He's not too old (a year at most). Not evil enough: goes wolfy three nights a month only, while Spike and Angel can change into their game face whenever they want. And wasn't it established in the canon that werewolves are regular humans except for those three nights? While Angel's and Spikey's murderous inner demons are always there screaming to get out.

Besides, A/S vampirism has a few things that came with the package: supernatural strength, speed and agility, which make both of them more or less helpful in the fight. While Oz has zero superpowers (except for his super!nose but it rarely works) and his condition turns him into mindless beast - not the most reliable ally on the battlefield. Thus S/A beat Oz 3 - 0.

OTOH there are some B/O fanfics out there, including those where the Wolfboy shags Buffy behind Willow's back. I have a dream of writing a story about Oz discovering his inner Casanova at UC Sunnydale and having sexual relationship with three girls (Willow, Buffy, Veruca) for most of the season 4. Paraphrasing the song from Eurotrip movie:

Willow doesn't know that Buffy and me
Do it in my van every Sunday
She tells her she's at the library but
She doesn't go
Still she's on her knees and
Willow doesn't know

Oh Willow doesn't know oh
So don't tell Willow
Willow doesn't know
Willow doesn't know
(So don't tell Willow!)

Then after the truth comes to light Willow tells Oz he's a jerk, says Xander was much better kisser during the Fluke and destroys his minivan with a baseball bat.

Edited February 5, 2020 by lembergwatcher

[lembergwatcher]

Buffy The Vampire Slayer: 10 Couples That Would Have Made A Lot Of Sense (But Never Got Together)

https://screenrant.com/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-couples-should-have-gotten-together/

[Joe Hellandback]

On 11/18/2020 at 1:20 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Buffy The Vampire Slayer: 10 Couples That Would Have Made A Lot Of Sense (But Never Got Together)

https://screenrant.com/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-couples-should-have-gotten-together/

I'd love to have seen Cordy and Oz. I'd love to have seen Buffy and Jonathon and Buffy and Dru. 

[Halting Hex]

Without reading the article as yet:

1.  Spike and Andrew.  Yeah, yeah, Bottom Bois need tops, I know.  But the benefit of their deciding to stay in Gilroy and open up a florist's shop (and never darken our screens again) far outweighs any other problems.

2.  Jenny and Wesley.  Far better to make a sexy fuddy-duddy squirm when he doesn't already think he knows all the answers, I say.

3.  Giles and Drusilla.  It's canon (Becoming, Part 2) that she prefers him to Angel and Spike, and she's far more deserving of "Redemption!" than her blondie bear is.  Let old Ripper take a walk on the wild side, and let him heal the wounds that certain vampires have inflicted on poor innocent psychic girl.

4.  Jonathan and Harmony.  We know he digs cheerleaders (dated Cordelia) and she's willing to settle, obviously.    They can be the (outright embarrassing) Willow/Xander equivalents in Cordy's sadly-inferior version of the Scoobies.

5.  Buffy and Cordelia.  Slaying.  Sex.  Sarcasm. Sex.  Shoes. Sex. Shoes.  The show could run 20 seasons and this couple would never get old.

6.  Faith and Dawn.  So the stuck-up tight-ass thinks she's too good for me, huh?  Fine, whatever.  Little sis has better boobs, anyhow.  (Faith's not exactly deep, you might have noticed.)

7.  Angel and Anya.  If he thought Cordelia knew how to run an office, wait until he sees what Ms. Capitalist can do.  Plus, he can shut her up when she starts fondly reminiscing about her days of slaughter without even trying.  You ain't in Angelus's league, girl.  Just saying.

8.  Willow and Riley.  (I assume this is already on the list.)

9.  Kathy and Tara.  Two demons on campus, pretty much just a fling, but a fun way to spend the time.  Tara will teach Kathy how to ride horses, Kathy will help Tara organize the dorm room.

10.  Xander and Hogan Martin.  Clearly, he's the man of Xander's dreams, and as we see when Oz questions him, Hogan just wants to be liked.  Wish granted, then.

(I'd try and find him a girl, but we're all out of interesting women [Fred? Pass.  Joyce?  Oh, please!] and you may have noticed that Xan gets bored very easily.  Maybe Gwendolyn Post, Mrs…but that would be a job of work, I'll admit.)

[lembergwatcher]

4 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Fred? Pass.

There are few porno fics about X/F out there actually...

It would've been interesting to introduce Xander and Fred to each other. At least they could talk about their (mutual) love for Patsy Cline.

[Halting Hex]

I'm pretty sure there are pornfics of Xander/EVERYONE, if you're inclined to look.

Some people don't lack for inspiration, it seems.

[Joe Hellandback]

18 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Without reading the article as yet:

1.  Spike and Andrew.  Yeah, yeah, Bottom Bois need tops, I know.  But the benefit of their deciding to stay in Gilroy and open up a florist's shop (and never darken our screens again) far outweighs any other problems.

2.  Jenny and Wesley.  Far better to make a sexy fuddy-duddy squirm when he doesn't already think he knows all the answers, I say.

3.  Giles and Drusilla.  It's canon (Becoming, Part 2) that she prefers him to Angel and Spike, and she's far more deserving of "Redemption!" than her blondie bear is.  Let old Ripper take a walk on the wild side, and let him heal the wounds that certain vampires have inflicted on poor innocent psychic girl.

4.  Jonathan and Harmony.  We know he digs cheerleaders (dated Cordelia) and she's willing to settle, obviously.    They can be the (outright embarrassing) Willow/Xander equivalents in Cordy's sadly-inferior version of the Scoobies.

5.  Buffy and Cordelia.  Slaying.  Sex.  Sarcasm. Sex.  Shoes. Sex. Shoes.  The show could run 20 seasons and this couple would never get old.

6.  Faith and Dawn.  So the stuck-up tight-ass thinks she's too good for me, huh?  Fine, whatever.  Little sis has better boobs, anyhow.  (Faith's not exactly deep, you might have noticed.)

7.  Angel and Anya.  If he thought Cordelia knew how to run an office, wait until he sees what Ms. Capitalist can do.  Plus, he can shut her up when she starts fondly reminiscing about her days of slaughter without even trying.  You ain't in Angelus's league, girl.  Just saying.

8.  Willow and Riley.  (I assume this is already on the list.)

9.  Kathy and Tara.  Two demons on campus, pretty much just a fling, but a fun way to spend the time.  Tara will teach Kathy how to ride horses, Kathy will help Tara organize the dorm room.

10.  Xander and Hogan Martin.  Clearly, he's the man of Xander's dreams, and as we see when Oz questions him, Hogan just wants to be liked.  Wish granted, then.

(I'd try and find him a girl, but we're all out of interesting women [Fred? Pass.  Joyce?  Oh, please!] and you may have noticed that Xan gets bored very easily.  Maybe Gwendolyn Post, Mrs…but that would be a job of work, I'll admit.)

Faith and Dawnie actually a really popular pairing in some circles.