Regina, the Evil Queen: The Only Happy Ending Will Be Hers

[Dani-Ellie]

But when other characters who are are sworn to hold up "goodness" like Snow don't have a problem with Regina, it just flat-out messes their characters up completely.

 

I hate beyond words that none of the characters are truly allowed to call Regina on her shit. I would love to see Snow go off on her for stealing the first three decades of her child's life from her and Charming. That is time they'll never get back, and all the firsts Regina got to share with Henry, Snow and Charming will never get to share with Emma. It's awful and it's terrible, and Regina most definitely owes all of them an apology for that.

 

But this whole "she's villain but not because she's just misunderstood and only a poor, poor victim. Feel sorry for Woegina, Audience. Feel sorry, for her NOW." Ya, eff that. That's what makes me hate Regina.

 

Word. I'm sorry, but I am not going to feel sorry for a woman who took her pain and anger out on an entire population and does not regret any of it. A person like that is not worthy of my sympathy.

[Camera One]

I think what retrograde said is exactly the reason why the writers need to redeem Regina (and Rumple) in some way.  If they were pure villains, every season would be the "good guys" trying to take them down.  And failing.  And failing.  And failing.  That would not sustain three seasons.  If the good guys did catch her, they would need to put her in prison or vanquish her for good which would mean she's off-screen.  Furthermore, they would not be able to have any real sort of conversation with Emma, Snow and Charming except for "I'm going to kill you", "Not if we kill you first", which would be severely limiting in terms of using the main cast.

 

Another is that Eddy and Adam are aspiring to do something deeper than a simple good vs. evil story (they are failing, but that's beside the point).  In a basic fairy tale or a typical summer blockbuster, the villain is simply evil and doesn't feel bad about it.  But you can't do that and still claim to be a true character drama.  Trying to write character scenes for Snow and Charming is difficult since the writers really need to be creative to find inner struggles that they are going through.  And why bother to do that, when you have Rumple and Regina who could be fighting their inner evil urges, insisting they are trying their best and then crying about it.  It's easy, built-in complexity right there.  It is so much easier to create a tragic backstory which explains why somebody was "pushed" to become evil or to make the wrong choices.

 

Thirdly, Eddy and Adam seriously think that Regina is a good person deep inside, and that her love with Henry is pure.  So they really do see her as deserving to be redeemed.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

I think with both Regina and Rumpel, they went too far in S1 (and in moments in S2--thinking largely of Rumpel murdering Milah and Regina slaughtering a village in 'The Evil Queen') to make redemption ever really believable/possible. They wanted to cast both of them as Big Bads and Serious Threats--and they did a great job of it--but they didn't stop to think about, when/if they got multiple seasons, how they would justify the heroes not killing/imprisoning a bunch of genocidal psychopaths who really ought to be locked up for the safety of the populace at large. (It's become so clear that they really only had a plan for the first season.)

 

But what I find frustrating is that for all that, they still could have worked with the bare bones they left themselves. Just don't pretend that Regina or Rumpel is ever going to be anything other than Dark Gray, and boom, you're fine. What's fouling up the story is like 15% the setup from S1, but 85% the permaboner for Regina (and to a lesser extent Rumpel).

[Camera One]

and in moments in S2--thinking largely of Rumpel murdering Milah and Regina slaughtering a village in 'The Evil Queen'

 

They certainly didn't learn from that (and do not believe they even made a mistake), having Regina actually murder Snow with the fireball in "There's No Place Like Home" and sending randoms who help Snow to the gallows.  I guess after killing a village, killing a single peasant would be child's play.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

Yeah, I have to say that that's what baffles me--the continuous showcasing of Rumpel and Regina's horrible deeds in the Enchanted Forest.

 

It's like, okay, on the one hand, given how much the writers have whitewashed/retconned away, they clearly perceive that they made Rumpel and Regina way too OTT evil in S1, and want to reel both characters in. They want to forget basically the darkest deeds both characters committed. And like, that's (kind of) fine to a certain extent...but viewers (well, at least this viewer) can't roll with that when you constantly show them doing horrendously evil things in the past. Like, how schizophrenic do you have to be to on the one hand think "well, we clearly made Regina and Rumpel too evil in S1, we have to tone them down," and on the other be like "let's show Regina murdering an entire village! And Rumpel murdering his ex-wife!"? I guess they just assume that a) the viewers buy into the ludicrous notion that The Evil Queen and Regina are actually two distinct personalities and b) since they're "forgiven" or "redeemed" in the present, we don't care when their body counts climb higher and higher in the past?

[Shanna Marie]

I'm totally in favor of having a villain who's really bad, who does stuff like devote her life to getting revenge on a misplaced grudge, who slaughters villagers, who executes anyone who helps her enemies, who's willing to destroy the things she loves most in order to get revenge on her enemies, and who manages to justify all this to herself. Give her a fabulous wardrobe and funny lines and let her eat up the scenery, and you've got someone great to serve as contrast to the heroes.

 

What I do object to is then being told that this person is actually a hero, has a resilient heart and is capable of true love and white magic without that person having really gone through a redemption experience other than just deciding that it's expedient for the moment to refrain from doing evil because being good and siding with the good guys is more likely to get her what she wants. If I'm going to believe that someone that evil is going to be redeemed, then I need to see the Come to Jesus moment in which she realizes the error of her ways, I need to see some apologies or at least recognition that she's wronged people, I need to see some empathy about realizing exactly what sufferings she's caused, and I need to see some attempt at atonement. A little karmic suffering to give the sense that the universe has some sense of justice would be a bonus.

 

Season one Regina was interesting because she kept losing not so much because the good guys were opposing her (especially in the present-day Storybrooke part of the story) but because she kept getting snarled in her own traps. If she hadn't tried to get rid of Emma, the curse wouldn't have been broken. Emma wasn't even trying to break a curse she didn't believe in. If Regina had been willing to at least share Henry with his birth mother instead of trying to curse Emma, Henry wouldn't have eaten the apple turnover, and Emma wouldn't have finally believed in the curse, and then her kiss wouldn't have broken the curse. It was poetic justice. If they were going to keep Regina a grey character, she needed to stay grey -- not killing people, maybe trying to at least look good on the surface, but not being called a hero, not being trusted by the people she'd been trying to destroy, not doing light magic and saving the day. She might have teamed up with the good guys when it suited her -- like when Henry needed saving or when they had a common enemy -- but sat things out if it looked like someone else would take care of Snow for her and she could get what she wanted without being blamed.

 

As it is, she's too bad to be believably good or for the trust all the other characters now have in her for no good reason but too good to make sense considering her past and her lack of any kind of awareness or remorse. When they made her "good" it wasn't even just moderately good or baby steps, it was Powerful Light Magic and True Love Without a Heart!!! good. She doesn't make sense as a villain anymore, but she's not that interesting when she's supposedly good.

[Camera One]

let's show Regina murdering an entire village! And Rumpel murdering his ex-wife!"?

 

Memo from Adam and Eddy:  Do you mean The Evil Queen and The Dark One?  

 

 

 

I guess they just assume that a) the viewers buy into the ludicrous notion that The Evil Queen and Regina are actually two distinct personalities and b) since they're "forgiven" or "redeemed" in the present, we don't care when their body counts climb higher and higher in the past?

 

Yes, you've got it!  Thanks for showing your appreciation.  We take that as a compliment.  Please change ludicrous to bold and audacious.   Adam and Eddy.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Camera One

[FabulousTater]

When they made her "good" it wasn't even just moderately good or baby steps, it was Powerful Light Magic and True Love Without a Heart!!! good.

For me, that moment in conjunction with the naming of baby Poor Unfortunate Namesake, will never not be the stupidest, most contrived, stinking, maggot filled heap of putrid garbage, so crappy it still smells because the writers pulled it out from sooo far up their colons moment in the history of the show. Just...landfill sized garbage. All of it.

[stealinghome]

@Camera One, you actually made me laugh out loud. You win the internet for today!

 

@Shanna Marie, I love your post so much I want to bronze it and hang it on my wall--and also pay someone to write it on a billboard...in huge letters...right outside Adam and Eddie's office. I would add that at least right now, Regina's just not believable as "good," not when she not three episodes ago gleefully threatened an imprisoned and powerless woman with death and implied she'd enjoy killing her, not when she's what, like 13 episodes removed from saying that she has No Regrets about her mass murdering/raping/destroying of an entire civilization/brainwashing and enslaving of an entire world's population/attempted murder of that entire population. Sorry, but I'm pretty sure a good person would feel, you know, at least a smidgeon of remorse for all that.

 

Season one Regina was interesting because she kept losing not so much because the good guys were opposing her (especially in the present-day Storybrooke part of the story) but because she kept getting snarled in her own traps.

This, so much! I LOVED that S1 Regina couldn't get out of her own way because to me it emblematized so much about her character: that at her core, Regina's problem isn't Snow or Emma or Henry Sr. or Leopold or even Cora or anyone else, it's Regina. (And oh, how I fucking long for the days when Emma was allowed to say that to her face.) That Regina constantly lost because of her own machinations just so perfectly encapsulated the character. And I will say that to their credit, that's one thing about Regina the writers have actually been pretty consistent with. I don't always like what they do with that knowledge or how they handle it, but for as much as they have tried to create the sob story of all sob stories for her history, I also do think they've always been very consistent--post-S1 2x02, 2x10, 2x17, 3x03, and the nonsense with Robin in 3B particularly comes to mind--in showing that Regina is her own worst enemy.

Edited August 13, 2014 by stealinghome

[MDKNIGHT]

Regina is her own worst enemy.

 

That is so true and I wish the show would be clearer on that.  It should be clear for instance that it was Regina's jailing Marion not Emma's rescue of Marion that led to Marion popping back and breaking up OutlawQueen.  In seeking reveng on Snow Regina forfeited the love and life of her father and all she got for it was making Snow a lonely schoolteacher, not even the death of her enemies which still would have come with a hefty price but would be more than what she got.  Before redemption can even be dreamed of she needs to take responsibility for her actions and truely regret them and that just hasn't happened. 

[Shanna Marie]

If they had really wanted to show Regina as a victim or not really the bad guy and that it was just a matter of perspective, then they set up the story the totally wrong way, which makes me wonder if they fell in love with the character later when it was already too late to adjust the backstory. It's painfully clear that Snow White didn't deserve Regina's wrath -- she was a child, she was manipulated by a master manipulator who manipulated Regina herself, she thought she was helping Regina and was selflessly giving up her chance at having the stepmother she wanted so Regina could be happy, Cora did the killing, Cora caught Regina's escape attempts so Snow's info probably didn't change anything. If they wanted to make it more of a grey area, then they could have had Snow's "crime" have come when she was an adult, could have had it be more selfishly motivated, could have shown that Cora wouldn't have known and Regina and Daniel would have escaped if it hadn't been for Snow.

 

Or if they wanted to get really wacky, they could have really twisted things around so that Snow was in danger of being lured to evil, that Charming was actually bad news, so it was for Snow's own good that Regina was trying to keep them apart, and then we'd learn that Regina cast the curse to send everyone to the world without magic because Snow was dabbling in black magic and that was the only way to pull Snow back from the brink. We'd have the big "aha!" moment that the Evil Queen had actually saved everyone when she cast the curse.

 

But they didn't do it that way. They set it up so there was no doubt to Snow's innocence, and yet now we're supposed to sympathize with this woman who did such massive levels of unspeakable evil in retaliation for a child's lapse in judgment and who seems utterly oblivious that she's done far worse to Snow than Snow ever did to her, and who has yet to apologize for what she's done to Snow while Snow has apologized repeatedly for what she did to Regina.

[stealinghome]

which makes me wonder if they fell in love with the character later when it was already too late to adjust the backstory.

Oh, it's very clear to me that this is most definitely the case. In my eyes, there was a huge sea change between S1 and S2, and 80% of it is the massive shift in attitude toward Regina.

 

I mean, just look at how many centrics Regina got between the seasons. In S1, she really had two centrics (1x02 and 'The Stable Boy') and played a large role in like one or two other fairybacks. In S2, she had something like four or five centrics, and then another two or three episodes where she "shared" the centric with someone else. (Plus Cora ate up another entire episode, and I hold that against Regina, too.)

 

Which makes Regina's arc the exact opposite of Snowing's, because together the two of them had about eight fairybacks in S1; in S2, on the other hand, they had two--two--centrics (one of which was Young Snow, not Goodwin), and then one or two episodes where they featured heavily in the fairybacks (with Charming getting particularly screwed because he didn't get his own centric at all in S2). Which is all to say that basically, if you look at the numbers between S1 and S2, it's clear that the show flipped from being "about" the Charmings to being "about" Regina.

Edited August 13, 2014 by stealinghome

[Camera One]

If they wanted to make it more of a grey area, then they could have had Snow's "crime" have come when she was an adult, could have had it be more selfishly motivated, could have shown that Cora wouldn't have known and Regina and Daniel would have escaped if it hadn't been for Snow.

 

For me, doing something like that would make it more black and white and less gray, and giving even more excuses for Regina.  Out of all the problems, I actually consider the reason they concocted for why Regina had a vendetta with Snow to be reasonably well done, enough to explain why Regina might have had a psychotic break and the key being her warped perception of the situation.  It was their continued compounding of Regina's crimes, culminating in the village massacre, which is the problem for me.

 

 

 

Which makes Regina's arc the exact opposite of Snowing's, because together the two of them had about eight fairybacks in S1; in S2, on the other hand, they had two--two--centrics (one of which was Young Snow, not Goodwin), and then one or two episodes where they featured heavily in the fairybacks (with Charming getting particularly screwed because he didn't get his own centric at all in S2). Which is all to say that basically, if you look at the numbers between S1 and S2, it's clear that the show flipped from being "about" the Charmings to being "about" Regina.

 

I think the reason for that was simply because S1 was built around telling the story of Snow White, and once that was over, the writers didn't know what else to say about Snow's backstory.  We already saw pretty much her whole life.  They had already established that Charming was a shepherd all his life, plus they would consider that boring.  Remember we thought they were going to do Snow and Charming taking back the kingdom but I guess they didn't know how to make a narrative with that.  So where was there to go?  Regina and Rumple.  They are the ones whose backstories were explored in Season 2 because they were the ones with the unanswered questions which intrigued the writers - how did Regina learn magic?  what happened to Rumple's wife?  But because Snow was still a main character, they were obligated to give her some centrics, and thus the overdose of Regina trying to kill Snow.  They didn't even bother trying with Charming, even though there could have been many interesting moments from his past, even as a shepherd (think of all the fairy tales involving them).  They also never mined how he adjusted to be king, and they still haven't.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I think that aside from the over the top nature of Regina's arc in 3B, they haven't served her character well in terms of her being a person with feelings or doubts. By this I mean that they just handed her a bunch of stuff that makes her happy, but never give her any kind of internal struggles or doubts reconciling her past experiences with these new things or any worry about it not working out. It's just here's everything you ever wanted and she just accepts it without any kind of self-reflection. This is a woman whose life went completely off the rails due to her reaction to pain at the loss of her first love. How is it that Regina just jumps right into a relationship with a guy who she is told is more than her true love, but her soul mate and not worry about it going wrong? And I could see her going for it, but not having any worries about potentially losing this new love doesn't make sense. This is Regina for god's sake. A control freak who is often the person who gets in her own way. She would be full of internal conflict.

 

Everyone else on this show has issues and doubts even once they've been reunited with family or found love. The Emma/Charmings reunion is wonderful, but it would have been completely unrealistic for them to just play happy families. There's too much history and emotional turmoil particularly Emma for that to happen. It should be the same thing for Regina. Where is her head at with these developments? How is she able to just throw open her heart? I remember after Outlaw Queen first got together A&E said something like we've waited 60 episodes to have Regina open her heart and I was thinking, wait, that's it? It made no sense that she'd just suddenly act this way. And then she literally handed the guy her heart! What the hell? It's just so out of character for her and there was zero build up for her doing so. I don't get it.

Edited August 13, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

How is she able to just throw open her heart?

 

Apparently, you just remove it and it's A-ok.

 

Seriously speaking, though, those are really good points.  There's no reason why the relationship would have gone so smoothly with Regina expressing nary a doubt.  With Regina's trust issues, would she really have just given Robin Hood her heart?  Everything was just played too easy.  It's just another example of Adam and Eddy not really showing an interest in actual character stories, even with their pet character.  Their eye was no doubt already on the soap-opera-ish twist, whereby Marion shows up alive and well - at the hands of her mortal enemy's daughter.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Camera One

[Mitch]

With Regina's trust issues, would she really have just given Robin Hood her heart?  Everything was just played too easy.

 

I always thought that was weird and took me out of.."the story," as much as the bad CGI usually does. I could have seen it if they had established that Regina and Robin had some kind of growing "friendship," during the lost year, say he saved her life (since this is Once eveything has to be BIG) and their suppressed memories were starting to submerge (I know this is for another thread but why didn't Emma's return to SB cause that curse to start breaking the second time) when Emma comes back. But we saw little of them interacting in the EF. (I know people like the split season but I could see the whole "new curse/lost year," storyline to last the whole season..so we could have seen them fighting Zelena in the EF and slowly draw out Zelena's plan in Storybrooke..) But, the make up with Snow in the lost year was totally swept under the rug too.. I was hoping to see some major sniping at each other living under the same roof and running a kingdom together, and Charming going out to the pub to get away from them...)

 

All the most interesting things are ingnored by Adam and Eddy to focus on big events, bad CGI and a new "Disney," character cameo.

[angelwoody]

There was so much gold to be mined from the lost year in the EF that I really can't believe they skipped it.  They could have let the whole year unfold in fairybacks over the course of the season, (like they did in S1) and had everyone trying to figure out who the witch was and stop her in the present.  It would have been much more interesting than a lot of what we ended up getting.

 

I don't like the split season because it seems to mean that they have to skip a lot of character development in order to sprint through each half season's story whilst quickly tagging plot points A, B, C, D, etc.  

[Shanna Marie]

Out of all the problems, I actually consider the reason they concocted for why Regina had a vendetta with Snow to be reasonably well done, enough to explain why Regina might have had a psychotic break and the key being her warped perception of the situation.

But the problem is that since then, I'm not sure the show sees it as being a warped perception and instead they depict it as Snow really and truly having harmed Regina and Regina having a valid beef with her. As much as Snow has apologized for what happened to Daniel, has anyone ever told her it wasn't her fault? Has anyone ever told Regina that she's overdone things? Has anyone ever said that it was Cora and not Snow to blame? We've just had a bunch of weepy Regina blaming all her problems on Snow and no one disagreeing with her, and Regina turning "good" without showing any indication that she realizes she's done anything wrong. That's why I was saying that if they really wanted to show that Regina wasn't entirely wrong, they needed to set it up differently. Or if they really did mean to show that it wasn't actually Snow's fault, then there needs to be some commentary within the show to say so instead of painting Regina as the eternal victim of Snow's evil family.

 

This is a woman whose life went completely off the rails due to her reaction to pain at the loss of her first love. How is it that Regina just jumps right into a relationship with a guy who she is told is more than her true love, but her soul mate and not worry about it going wrong?

Oh, but her heart is so resilient! (Another one of those areas where they show one thing and tell us another -- she completely flips out when one bad thing happens to her while every single other character has dealt with so much worse, but she's the one with the most resilient heart.) But yeah, that was totally out of character. The more a relationship means, the scarier it is. It's easy to flirt with someone you're not all that interested in because you have no investment in the outcome, but I'd think that knowing someone was your destined soulmate would be terrifying. Then you know that if it doesn't work out, it's because you screwed up, since supposedly he actually is the right person. You can't fall back on the comforting "he just wasn't right for me" excuse. And I would think that a control freak would really resist being told that this was the person for her. This is the woman whose last relationship was with a man whose heart she literally held in her hand so that she could control him like a puppet, and when he showed signs of freeing himself from her, she murdered him. She's not going to just accept the hand of fate in picking a boyfriend. She's probably going to resist. Handing over her heart before the first date just isn't going to happen.

 

On the other hand, she doesn't seem like someone who's willing to work to make a relationship successful. So maybe the fairy dust works like controlling his heart -- she wants the guarantee of success just handed to her instead of having to work things out, talk, compromise, and all that, and with the risk that you can try really hard and still not have it work out.

[Camera One]

But the problem is that since then, I'm not sure the show sees it as being a warped perception and instead they depict it as Snow really and truly having harmed Regina and Regina having a valid beef with her.

 

Exactly, the problem is since then.  And they did create a new beef Regina had with Snow, by having Snow *murder* Regina's dear sweet mother.  

 

As much as Snow has apologized for what happened to Daniel, has anyone ever told her it wasn't her fault? Has anyone ever told Regina that she's overdone things? Has anyone ever said that it was Cora and not Snow to blame?

 

No one even defended Snow for killing Cora in "Bleeding Through", not Charming nor Emma nor even Hook.  

 

Or if they really did mean to show that it wasn't actually Snow's fault, then there needs to be some commentary within the show to say so instead of painting Regina as the eternal victim of Snow's evil family.

 

To them, even if Snow didn't mean it, it still is her fault, thus Regina claiming that Emma was "just like her mother", not thinking about the consequences of her actions.  

[KingOfHearts]

Regina's redemption arc started abruptly and moved like a freight train before going stop-go-stop-go the rest of the time. Throughout all of S1, there were no breadcrumbs at all to hint at Regina ever being redeemable. Not one soul felt sorry for her, not even her own son. Regina didn't make one effort to do the good thing the entire season. Then immediately in S2, the main cast felt sorry for Regina and attempted to save her. Henry, who didn't give a crap about her, was now playing her advocate. Just a few episodes earlier, Regina framed Snow for murder and tried to seduce David. It was as if the curse breaking took away all the anger the main cast was feeling for Regina and made it vanish into thin air.

 

Then 2A keeps coming with Regina's redemption, and it's totally knocked down by Cora... then the failsafe... then the Regrets Tree... and now possibly Marian. Why do the writers constantly speed up her so-called redemption only to hit it against a brick wall? It's either on the highest height or lowest low. 

 

Here is how they should have played it in S2: Regina agrees to play nice for Henry, then slowly realizes Snow is not the devil. She realizes all that manhunting wasn't validated, and her real enemy was her mother. Then she kills Cora, which the town throws her a party for, and then proceeds to warm up to the Charmings.

Edited August 15, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Guest]

I think they would have solved a lot of problems with Regina if they had simply never had a single character give her any credit when she does something good.  It allows her to do bad things but leaves the good deeds as indicating some redeeming qualities in the Evil Queen because she does them despite the fairy tale characters and Henry not really appreciating it.

 

Instead they try to convince us of Regina's redemption by making Snow and her family not perfect.

Edited August 15, 2014 by ParadoxLost

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think they would have solved a lot of problems with Regina if they had simply never had a single character give her any credit when she does something good.  It allows her to do bad things but leaves the good deeds as indicating some redeeming qualities in the Evil Queen because she does them despite the fairy tale characters and Henry not really appreciating it.

 

They had this going in 2A, when Regina apologized to Henry, then he went to go stay with David, for example. For the most part, 2A did a great job with her. It wasn't until Cricket Game that it took a serious nosedive. 

Edited August 15, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

It wasn't until Cricket Game that it took a serious nosedive.

 

That episode was definitely teetering on the precipitous of the point of no return for this show.  In that episode, Snow and Charming were still extremely distrustful of Regina.  But the fact that we the viewers knew it was Cora made it designed to manipulate us into thinking that Snow and Charming should be giving Regina another chance, that they are being unfair.  Snow still had a brain in that episode.  Look at the dialogue:

 

-------------------

 

Leroy: What is she doing here? (pointing to Regina)

Emma: I invited her.

 

Mary Margaret takes Emma aside.

 

Emma: We’re celebrating today because of Regina. She helped us get home. No matter what she did in the past, we owe her our thanks now.

 

MMB: Didn’t you think to tell us about it?

 

Emma: I did, but you two were a little busy this afternoon.

 

MMB: Emma, she tried to kill us – yesterday!

 

Emma: No, she didn’t. She’s trying to change for Henry. He believes in her. And, right now, that’s enough for me. I couldn’t have changed if I wasn’t given a chance, so… She gets one, too.

 

Meanwhile... Regina gives a piece of lasagna to Henry.

 

Henry: I’m glad you came.

 

-------------

 

This episode was designed to attribute Regina's subsequent backslide to the lack of trust that she was afforded.  See, look how much Henry wanted her there!  No, Henry should have been wary after the close call at the well the day before.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Snow still had a brain in that episode.

 

Well, to be fair, in the same episode she let Regina go free from execution... to the danger of her own kingdom. But I agree in general this episode was extremely skewed. It made the Charmings look evil, and it began the Woegina movement. The whole episode was one big Regina victimization that didn't do anyone any favors. Except Cora... she really knows how to manipulate her daughter.

 

It's one episode I absolutely hate watching because it felt so wrong in so many ways... The whole execution storyline and the frame job in the present are both things I wish to block out of my memory.

 

By the way, if there's some spell that could stop a person from harming you, why can't they just use that for ALL the Big Bads?! That was so overpowered.

Edited August 15, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I meant in the present.  The destruction of her character was already starting in the flashbacks.  Thus the aforementioned precipitous point of no return.  All the hallmarks of the problems of the future were on display in this episode.  Another being making yet another deal with Rumplestiltskin (which was supposed to be rare, since Snow and Charming didn't want anything to do with him, and who won the long con in the flashbacks?  Rumple yet again).  

Edited August 15, 2014 by Camera One

[Mathius]

I mean, just look at how many centrics Regina got between the seasons. In S1, she really had two centrics (1x02 and 'The Stable Boy') and played a large role in like one or two other fairybacks. In S2, she had something like four or five centrics, and then another two or three episodes where she "shared" the centric with someone else. (Plus Cora ate up another entire episode, and I hold that against Regina, too.)

 

Which makes Regina's arc the exact opposite of Snowing's, because together the two of them had about eight fairybacks in S1; in S2, on the other hand, they had two--two--centrics (one of which was Young Snow, not Goodwin), and then one or two episodes where they featured heavily in the fairybacks (with Charming getting particularly screwed because he didn't get his own centric at all in S2). Which is all to say that basically, if you look at the numbers between S1 and S2, it's clear that the show flipped from being "about" the Charmings to being "about" Regina.

Your data is not entirely accurate: to be specific, Regina had MUCH more than "one or two" other fairybacks where she played a big role in S1, Regina had four centrics (2x02, 2x05, 2x17, and 2x20) and two "shared" (2x09 and 2x10...two in a row!) in S2, and Snowing (mainly Snow) had three non-centric fairybacks featuring them in S2 (2x07, 2x10, and 2x20).

[Mitch]

Throughout all of S1, there were no breadcrumbs at all to hint at Regina ever being redeemable. Not one soul felt sorry for her, not even her own son.

 

I think we had some indication that Regina "might," be redeemable...but it was more of the way Parrilla played it with the lines given her.  She would look wistful when saying something like, "Bad things can happend and  can turn you dark.." which as written was more Mayor Mills b.s. but as played by Lana, it had another level.

 

Now my understanding, and I am most likely fanwanking this, but the curse stopped time and froze the residents into their new identities. Because of that, Regina was stuck basically in the last day of the Enchanted Forest when she cast the curse, angry, vengefull, self pitying, etc.  After the curse broke she was able to move, little by little out of that.

 

 

Here is how they should have played it in S2: Regina agrees to play nice for Henry, then slowly realizes Snow is not the devil. She realizes all that manhunting wasn't validated, and her real enemy was her mother. Then she kills Cora, which the town throws her a party for, and then proceeds to warm up to the Charmings.

 

Exactley, and they could have ended it as Season 3A ended, Cora somehow unleashes the Curse,.her real reason for going after the Knife of Doom, etc. was never really about becoming the Dark One, Cora is way too smart and controlling for that..she wanted to get Rump powerless so she could crush his heart and she was using Regina to get to where she hid the curse..she wanted the Curse all along so she could have the whole land cow tow to her for eternity..while wearing smart dark pant suits and flashy scarves..) Rump "dies." the Curse is cast, somehow the combination of Regina's dark magic and Emma's white magic kills Cora, and then Regina has to send them all back to save them from being Dead Cora's meat puppets..cue Season 3A  and they could have spent the whole year on the new curse and flashbacks to the lost year..( I could excuse the writers lame ass excuse for bringing Rump a Dump back...) That way a whole Season of the lost year could include, among other things, Regina and Snow coming to terms with each other in a more natural way then it is now. Finally free of both Cora and Rump Regina begins to realize what she has become and the horrible things she does (especially back in the EF, where the people protected by CoraDome would not be pleased to see Regina back and coudl be harder then the Storybrookers..)

[Rockybeach]

As both a Carol Burnett fan and an Evil Queen fan I think I should be offended, but you are right. Every outfit looks like it was pulled from Bob's designs or Carol's closet. If they ever decide to do a musical episode I think she should be the star because she is the only one dressed for it.  :)

I did see it and I LOVED IT. I think it gave so much depth to what was going on with Regina right after Daniel's death. I hate that they cut it out.

I agree. I love the scenes between Regina and her father. I don't think he was a great dad, but I think he did love his daughter. I like that Regina made it clear that being Queen was never her dream, it was Cora's.

[Shanna Marie]

I've been thinking about the dilemma they set themselves up for with Regina, where they couldn't keep her as the villain forever without both her and the good guys looking incompetent if they were never able to defeat each other, but they can't make her totally good forever and make her still be very interesting, and I think I've figured out what might have worked to sustain her as something of an antagonist without her being the big bad. They just needed to sustain the stalemate they had at the beginning of season two.

 

The good guys couldn't really do anything against her because she was too powerful (and because even though Henry recognized that she was the Evil Queen, he didn't want her to die), while she finally had something she wanted more than to destroy Snow in Henry, and she knew that acting against Snow in an obvious way would make her lose Henry. She had to at least play nice to keep from alienating Henry further. That could have gone on for quite a while, with her maybe trying some sneaky, underhanded things to make Snow and Emma look bad or maybe trying to come up with a new scheme to get Snow and Emma out of the way so she could have Henry without it looking like she had anything to do with it. Not a scheme of the week so that it looks like a Coyote/Road Runner cartoon, but maybe a scheme of the season. And meanwhile there would be other guest villains to serve as big bads. Sometimes Regina might try teaming up with them, but sometimes she might end up having to team up with the Charming family when she or Henry was targeted.

 

This really wouldn't have changed the plots much until we got to True Love's Kiss and white magic in 3B -- she still would have sided with Cora, still would have pulled out the failsafe and still would have been forced to counter it when it got hijacked and she got caught in it, but she wouldn't have been called a hero by anyone for stopping the evil things she herself put in place. She still would have cooperated with the others against Pan to save Henry, still would have had to undo the curse. I think it's just more the reactions of everyone else that would have needed to change, with them being allowed to treat her like the evil queen who tormented and cursed them. And a lot less weeping from her. Then it would have been less flip-floppy when she turned darker, since she was already dark grey.

 

With this setup, they could have really done some fun stuff with the missing year. If Henry was her only motivation for being good, then nothing would have stopped her from getting back to her usual tricks once they were back in the Enchanted Forest and Henry would never know what happened. She could even have played Rumple to someone else's Regina as she tried to find a patsy she could get to cast the Dark Curse by sacrificing the thing they loved most so she could get back to Henry. Then getting their memories restored would have really had some impact.

 

In the final season, she could either become the Big Bad again who has to be defeated in the series finale, or she could have a real redemption moment near the beginning of the season and have to spend the rest of the season trying to convince everyone she really has changed and prove it by truly helping the good guys so that at the end of the series she finally wins Henry over and gets accepted as part of the Charming extended family.

[stealinghome]

The good guys couldn't really do anything against her because she was too powerful (and because even though Henry recognized that she was the Evil Queen, he didn't want her to die), while she finally had something she wanted more than to destroy Snow in Henry, and she knew that acting against Snow in an obvious way would make her lose Henry. She had to at least play nice to keep from alienating Henry further. That could have gone on for quite a while, with her maybe trying some sneaky, underhanded things to make Snow and Emma look bad or maybe trying to come up with a new scheme to get Snow and Emma out of the way so she could have Henry without it looking like she had anything to do with it.

They also could've not completely re-powered her a hot 5 seconds after the curse broke. Giving Regina some sort of limited magic--say, enough to defend herself if a mob comes after her, but not enough to do really anything else--or limiting it for a while to magic in self-defense only could also have been effective in achieving a stalemate with the Charmings that wouldn't require her to be more than gray.

 

But largely I agree, @Shanna Marie. I've thought for a while now that Regina's S2 arc would've been more coherent if the show had had the balls to play her "redemption" arc in 2A as inauthentic, but like she also kind of liked being more accepted by the Storybrooke populace at large at the same time as she was secretly plotting. It could've paved the way for her blaze of glory moment in 2x22 and also not made it look like she flip-flops at the drop of a hat.

[FavFable]

I agree. I love the scenes between Regina and her father. I don't think he was a great dad, but I think he did love his daughter. I like that Regina made it clear that being Queen was never her dream, it was Cora's.

I wonder how different things would have been if Henry had been able to stand up to Cora and protect Regina. Would Daniel have survived? I am curious if Henry knew about all of Rumple's manipulations back in the Enchanted Forest.

[FurryFury]

Hmm I wonder if making Regina lose her magic in order to do something good would be an interesting idea. Magic has long been a key part of her identity and making it a price for a truly selfless deed could be an important step in redeeming her, plus it makes the "good" guys weaker thus their enemies don't need to be stupidly overpowered anymore, making the whole thing somewhat more believable.

[Mitch]

They would never allow their bad guys to have limited magic. Since the start of Season 2 it has made no sense that the land without magic can have magic so easily. They should have always had limited magic in SB with R & R and any big bad having to bide their time and come up with the proper ingrediants to make them work...(sort of like Zelena having to collect all her things for her back in time spell, however, it made no sense that she didnt just turn everyone into flying monkeys and keep Snow in a cage until she gave birth...the writers giving their villains so much power makes everyone looks stupid and ineffectual including the villain.  Sleepy Hallow does it right, there is magic but its not all powerful and the vilains all have a weakness...(however convenient it is) they don't fail because they are stupid or just decide not to kill someone.  The odds are more even.

 

She had to at least play nice to keep from alienating Henry further. That could have gone on for quite a while, with her maybe trying some sneaky, underhanded things to make Snow and Emma look bad or maybe trying to come up with a new scheme to get

 

 

I never understood how the sneaky Mayor Mills who for 28 years acted like her crap didn't stink ("I feel personally violated!") somehow became stupid and obvious in everything she did since Season 2.  I wish S2...before Snow and Emma fell into the vortex thing,...that they had a trial for Regina.. it would be totally screwed up as there is no case law in our world for enacting curses..so they would have to have charge her with Snow's frame job. Of course there would be no evidence and to add insult to injury Charming's adopto dad would defend her..so the fairy back would be of Regina's trial in the EF, with her and her balls out approach, to Regina in SB, with her feigning a "Change of Heart," and pleading for mercy..."I brought to a world without magic, where there is medicine, central heat and air, not to mention indoor plumbing you dolts...I mean, citizens of SB. Now that the curse is broken this IS a better world for us all...I was distraught, I was half crazed out of my mind, in this world it would be called a break with reality" of course, only Parrilla could pull it off that kind of thing, with us knowing all along she was full of crap (and how much fun would it be to watch her camp it up in a low key style.)  There is a mistrial just because its so bizarre and the Charmings ,  who know that Regina us up to no good, will play along for Henry's sake, but let her know they are watching her.  "Of course dear, shall we start planning on who is having Thanksgiving this year, oh of course me, you live in a dump and can't cook."  Snow, "As long as the gravy doesnt put us into a sleep with eternal dreams of regret, okay."  Rump would then let loose the Walgreens Halloween Decoration Wrath and the rest of the season could go as planned.  Regina would then indeed like it that she is somewhat tolerated, she starts to actually slowly assimilate and that could start her slow redemption path, while still being a fun bad girl causing trouble on the sly.

[FavFable]

Rocky, wondering if you have read any of the spoilers and if so, what is your take for the Regina & Robin storyline?

[Camera One]

Inspirational article we can all appreciate:

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-power-of-being-bold-and-audacious

[Rockybeach]

Rocky, wondering if you have read any of the spoilers and if so, what is your take for the Regina & Robin storyline?

Honestly,  I think Regina is the story. Not sure if she and Robin reconcile or if he leaves with Marian, but either way. Marian is a non-issue. They aren't going to waste too much time on a character they didn't bother to even feature prior to this manufactured angst. I think at first Robin will stay with Marian out of guilt. Not sure if he sacrifices his future for her? Or decides that he is over her. Regina is going to regress. How far? Not sure. She already doesn't think she deserves Robin, and I don't think she will fight for him.

[Hookian]

Inspirational article we can all appreciate:

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-power-of-being-bold-and-audacious

From the examiner? Not much to appreciate from anything they write.

[FavFable]

Honestly, I think Regina is the story. Not sure if she and Robin reconcile or if he leaves with Marian, but either way. Marian is a non-issue. They aren't going to waste too much time on a character they didn't bother to even feature prior to this manufactured angst. I think at first Robin will stay with Marian out of guilt. Not sure if he sacrifices his future for her? Or decides that he is over her. Regina is going to regress. How far? Not sure. She already doesn't think she deserves Robin, and I don't think she will fight for him.

I just read a interview where the writer said they were interested in how Regina moves on from this. So I agree the story is going to be about Regina. Looking forward to how it plays out and also looking forward to 4B

with Maleficent. I hope Regina and Maleficent share a lot of scenes. The story should really focus on them.

Edited August 30, 2014 by stacey
Spoiler tags

[formerlyfreedom]

Please remember to use spoiler tags when talking about future knows. Thanks!

[KingOfHearts]

I just noticed something odd about Regina's character (among the million other things). When Regina does something evil, all the characters just pat her head and say, "It's all in the past." and forget about it. But if Regina does something mildly nice, like bring lasagna or get Henry his lunchbox, she gets all sorts of flack. This isn't a constant rule, but I've seen it ring true many times on the show.

 

In this very twisted way, the writers are bending it so we feel bad for her through the reactions of the characters. Every time Regina shows a little growth or kindness, she gets beat over the head with a stick. Then whenever she does something evil, like kill Graham, she gets hugs and kisses. I'm just thinking, what the heck?

Edited September 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

I just noticed something odd about Regina's character (among the million other things). When Regina does something evil, all the characters just pat her head and say, "It's all in the past." and forget about it. But if Regina does something mildly nice, like bring lasagna or get Henry his lunchbox, she gets all sorts of flack. This isn't a constant rule, but I've seen it ring true many times on the show.

 

In this very twisted way, the writers are bending it so we feel bad for her through the reactions of the characters. Every time Regina shows a little growth or kindness, she gets beat over the head with a stick. Then whenever she does something evil, like kill Graham, she gets hugs and kisses. I'm just thinking, what the heck?

Yup.  It's one of the infuriating things that happen when Regina is on screen.  None of the good characters are allowed to call her on how she's victimized them, except occasionally in small, random ways when they need to make Regina seem sympathetic.

 

And the thing is, people are right not to immediately trust her when she does mildly nice things like make lasagna or take lunch to Henry.   She's done really horrible things to these people, and did it over a really long period of time.  It would take them a long time to trust that this time, the food item she's bringing you isn't poisoned--unlike the time she fed someone that apple, or that apple tart, for example.

 

I realize they're manipulating us, and we're supposed to be thinking "How dare they not want to eat Regina's lasagna!  She's trying to be friendly", but I keep getting stuck at "I wouldn't want to eat it, either.  Only a few weeks ago she was feeding Emma poisoned apple tart."

 

It's one of the things that makes it harder for me to sympathize or enjoy Regina as a character.  I hate to be manipulated, and the writers' efforts are so blatant and clumsy.  "Oh, people are being mean to her!  Why aren't they being nice!?"

 

When they not only follow up tiny bits of character growth with, not necessarily rejection from the others, but distrust and then have Regina completely reject any remorse or guilt because she got what she wanted?  Um . . . huh? 

 

So, not only am I supposed to feel bad for her, but I'm supposed to feel bad for her while she absolutely refuses to feel bad for anything she's done because she got what she wanted? 

 

That doesn't work for me.  It just makes me angry.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I realize they're manipulating us, and we're supposed to be thinking "How dare they not want to eat Regina's lasagna!  She's trying to be friendly", but I keep getting stuck at "I wouldn't want to eat it, either.  Only a few weeks ago she was feeding Emma poisoned apple tart."

 

I agree. The writers go over-the-top with it to manipulate the audience to sympathize with her. Not only do the other characters not trust her, but they're portrayed as really mean, bitter people. You can take Cricket Game, for example. When they thought Regina was the murderer but she wasn't, it was all, "KILL REGINA!!! SHES EVIL!" But when Regina does kill someone, like Owen's dad, it's nothing but sympathy for her because Owen ran away. 

 

I hate being manipulated too. It's as if the showrunners think I'm stupid enough to accept whatever the characters say, even when it's obviously not true. ("There are four lights!" - Picard)

Edited September 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

What's stupid about it is that it's SO obvious that the writers know we won't sympathize with Regina if they don't stack the deck. Like I always feel like it's a clear indication that they *know* they haven't written a Grand Redemption Arc for her--have actually kind of written the opposite--but need to hurry on past that to make her the biggest victim Mary Sue ever.

It's as if the showrunners think I'm stupid enough to accept whatever the characters say, even when it's obviously not true.

Sadly, there are a lot of people who bite on it hook, line, and sinker. Edited September 9, 2014 by stealinghome

[Shanna Marie]

I think I started really hating Regina -- really disliking the character instead of just disliking her because she's a villain -- was when Emma and Mary Margaret had returned from the Enchanted Forest and they'd just revived David from the sleeping curse, and everyone headed out to dinner without Regina, and she sat there all weepy-eyed and forlorn, and it was like the show added neon subtitles saying "Poor Regina! Everyone's so mean to her!"

 

When the reality is that she had stolen the magic diamonds from the mine to get the power to destroy the well that would serve as the likely portal and was in the process of doing this, which would have either killed or forever stranded Emma and Mary Margaret, until Henry caught her and begged her to stop. While they were gone, she'd threatened the town to force Henry to live with her. The last time Emma had seen her, it was just after Regina nearly killed Henry with a poisoned tart meant for her, and just before that, she'd been trying to frame Mary Margaret for murder. She hadn't apologized for any of that, aside from some apology to Henry about trying to hold him captive. This is the first time their family has had a chance to be together, thanks to her. And now they're cruel, mean people because they didn't invite her to join them for a family dinner?

[KingOfHearts]

 

And now they're cruel, mean people because they didn't invite her to join them for a family dinner?

It's not like she couldn't have asked to come or anything. I don't think anyone really blamed her for trying to stop Cora from getting into town. It was her choice to stand there crying instead of taking control of her own life. She invents her own hells is what she does. 95% of her "suffering" is her own fault.

 

The writing tries to get us to feel bad for her for the stupidest reasons, too. Dinner invites, week-long boyfriends, lasagna... I can't believe the Evil Queen can't get a grip on this dumb stuff. It's so below her.

Edited September 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Crimson Belle]

It's not like she couldn't have asked to come or anything.

 

 

She has and everybody else should recognize that she NEVER EVER has any right to come to anything involving the Charmings.  She should never have any right, expectation or sense of entitlement to anything involving anyone in the Enchanted Forest.  Why?  Because she is a mass murdering genocidal maniac who deserves at minimum to be locked up and really should expect every townie in Storybrooke to randomly attack her with battleaxes, arrows, bows, rocks or anything else that might rid their world of its greatest evil.  The lack of normal, human reaction to her, her crimes and her very existence is mind boggling. 

 

 

I can't believe the Evil Queen can't get a grip on this dumb stuff. It's so below her.

 

 Really it's not.  Regina is nothing if not petty.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Crimson Belle

[KingOfHearts]

 

The lack of normal, human reaction to her, her crimes and her very existence is mind boggling.

 

Well, this is a story issue. Her character is part of the main cast, so she can't be a Big Bad forever. If everyone wanted to kill her (which is natural), then her character wouldn't have anywhere to go. If she remains a villain, then there's the big question of why she hasn't been killed off. I can see why they wanted to redeem her, but the execution of the redemption is what has been messed up. If the main cast hated her, then she wouldn't stay relevant to them.

 

I can see the Charmings forgiving her eventually just because story demands it, but the way the show has handled it has been very poor and shallow. They paint it over with victimization and manufactured tears, hoping the audience doesn't see.

 

I totally understand the city wanting to kill her, and I'm surprised that dropped so quickly in S2. Honestly it should have been more like the nightmare sequence in An Apple Red as Blood. If they had given Regina a truer redemption in the second season, it wouldn't have been such a big pill to swallow.

Edited September 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

The last time Emma had seen her, it was just after Regina nearly killed Henry with a poisoned tart meant for her, and just before that, she'd been trying to frame Mary Margaret for murder. She hadn't apologized for any of that, aside from some apology to Henry about trying to hold him captive. This is the first time their family has had a chance to be together, thanks to her. And now they're cruel, mean people because they didn't invite her to join them for a family dinner?

 

This. I personally believe Regina made her bed and I was not at all sorry that she now had to lie in it. I didn't even care when the Charmings were all screaming at her when they thought she'd killed Archie because, gee, Regina, if you hadn't killed a whole metric shit-ton of people before this incident, maybe they wouldn't be so quick to believe you'd killed someone else.

 

Broken trust is (or should be) very hard to come back from. Treating Regina's crimes not as they crimes and affronts they are is extremely problematic, and making the other characters look bad for having normal, human reactions to someone who has spent a lot of time trying to destroy their lives is completely messed up.

[KingOfHearts]

I didn't even care when the Charmings were all screaming at her when they thought she'd killed Archie because, gee, Regina, if you hadn't killed a whole metric shit-ton of people before this incident, maybe they wouldn't be so quick to believe you'd killed someone else.

 

 

I wouldn't have either if it weren't so inconsistent. They had been all about forgiveness and looking the other way up to that point, then in a split second they rage on her. Coupled with the whole execution flashback, it felt very overplayed in the effort to victimize Regina. Those weren't real feelings - they were just put in there to suit the script. Right after they find out Regina was innocent, it was back to coddling.

 

If they wanted to scream at her, they would've done it in Broken for all the horrible things Regina did in S1. (Like killing Graham, framing Mary Margaret, abducting Kathryn, seducing David, trying to kill Mary Margaret, trying to curse Emma, etc.) Why they didn't show hardly any anger at all is beyond me.

Edited September 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

By the time of the confrontation at the mansion when Emma turned on her, though, they had the "evidence" from the dreamcatcher. At that point, I didn't see an inconsistent logical leap between wanting to believe she had turned things around and actually seeing evidence that she hadn't. The evidence wasn't even wrong; it just wasn't what it appeared to be. "The Cricket Game" was the morning after Snow and Emma returned from the Forest, so they hadn't seen her since "Broken," really.