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Lisin

S02.E10: What's My Line (Part 2)

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While Career Week drags on at Sunnydale High, Buffy and Kendra form an uneasy alliance to stop Spike from sacrificing Angel, whose blood, ritually spilled when the moon is full, is Drusilla's only cure. The Slayers bring Spike's plan, to host a massive killing spree for Dru's "coming out party," down around his ears.

 

Willow and Oz! Xander and Cordy! EEE! It's all happening! Sorry, I'm not really that huge a shipper, I just think Willow and Oz are cute, and I like it when characters I like get to be happy. Even if it's short lived. Again, not a ton to say about this one other than I like it quite a lot. I hadn't realized that until this rewatch. 

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In What's My Line Part 1, Angel is struggling to get out of a cage, while Buffy sleeps in his bed. Foreshadowing much?

 

Angelus will delight in mocking Spike's masculinity, but here he goads Spike into staking him for a better purpose, before Dru puts a stop to it, lead ing to one of my favorite Spike quotes:

"The lions are onto you, Baby." 

 

We also get more parallels between Buffy and Spike:

Handbooks are out

Jealousy is in

Fire is essential

 

Here's another interesting exchange:

Spike: "I'd rather be fighting you anyway."

Buffy: "Mutual."

 

There's something there. They can feel it, even if they don't know what to call it. And soon enough, they'll find themselves sidelined by their respective lovers.

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"There's something there"…would that be the murderous hatred, perhaps?

 

Given that this is the episode where Buffy pauses in rescuing her beloved Angel from an imminently-flaming death to make sure Spike doesn't get away, believes she has caused Spike's death, and celebrates the fact ("I'm good"), I would think that this might not be the best episode ever to try to promote the Spuffy Goggles of Twu Wuv theory.  Although, to be fair, this is hardly the first time I've seen this use of "mutual" to hijack the actual B/S loathing that pervades the episode.

 

Quote

"In five minutes, though, Angel will be dead, so…I forebear.  Don't feel bad, though;  he's got something you don't."
"What's that?"

"Five minutes. Patrice…"

 

Yes, Spike in this episode feels such an all-consuming fixation for Buffy, such a deep-seated passion for his nemesis, which clearly just masks his Forever Love for her (if only he'd admit it, the silly boy!) that he…turns over the handling of Buffy's execution (he thinks) to an underling, a C-Villain played by a stuntwoman who got three lines over the entire course of the two-parter. Wow, he's really obsessed with Buffy, isn't he?

 

(He also was annoyed that Willy the Snitch had brought Buffy to the ritual, rather than Willy killing Buffy on his own.  Indeed, he wants to kill Willy because of this.  Not exactly a lot of "delight in conquering my enemy" that I'm getting off of Bleach Boy here.  

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Of course, for all I know, they were still planning to kill Spike in Innocence at this point, and so didn't give much thought to his long-term motivations, what with his apparently not having a long term and all…)

 

Second-best acting episode for James (after School Hard), though.  I still enjoy the character,

Spoiler

if I can block out the fact that Spuffy fans want to turn his every moment on screen into "foreshadowing" of Season Sux.

 This won't last, so I might as well enjoy it while I can, I suppose.

 

Back in the actual show, I've always loved the scene where Willow comes into the library, from Buffy's "back off, Pink Ranger" to get Kendra to let Willow through, to Will's reaction to Kendra's accusing Buffy of kissing a vampire:

 

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(standing up for Buffy) "Buffy would never do that!" (realizing, to Buffy) "Except that sometimes, you do that." (defiant, again) "But only with Angel!" (unsure, to Buffy) "Right?"

 

Wait, does this make Spuffy all Willow's fault?  I mean, she's the first one to bring up the subject of Buffy kissing non-Angel vampires…bad Willow!

 

But, if we're going to go that far for "foreshadowing", shouldn't we assume that Willow subconsciously knew that Buffy was bisexual and was looking to hook Buffy and Drusilla up?  Busilla, baby…now there's an OTP I can get behind!

 

As for the show's actual canon pairing, I still cringe every time I hear this bit of blithely willful blindness:

 

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"Angel? You mean Angelus?  I've read about him; he is a monster!"

"No, no, he's good now."

 

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Poor Kendra, dead because nobody can see the truth.

 And my only serious "fuck you, Giles" moment in actual canon

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, before we get to the bad fanfiction that was the DawnVerse, where suddenly "Giles treats Xander like shit" is supposed to be funny, over and over again.  Sigh.

 

(Well, okay, "Sigh" works fine for describing ANY part of S5-7, it's true.  But, given that we're in the Actual Good Part of the Series, perhaps I should focus on that.  My bad.)

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Wow...just...wow. I'm much happier, I think, being where I am, thanks all the same. So much bitterness, over a freaking TV show, after all this time.

It's a thin line between love and hate. JM has said he was playing an attraction to Buffy on Spike's part in School Hard and Spike was obsessed with Slayers. It goes beyond just "mutual," I'm far from the only one who sees it that way, and it's not exactly a radical interpretation of the text.

Edited by Dianthus
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Even though I like both Willow and Oz more then Xander and Cordy individually, the latter still makes the #1 spot of my all time favorite Buffy-verse couple, 

Also two of my favorite lines are in this episode. 

1. Cordelia: I bet you wouldn't. I bet you'd let a girl go off to her doom all by herself.

Xander: Not just any girl. You're special.

2. Xander: Hey, Angel's our friend!... except that I don't like him.

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1. Cordelia: I bet you wouldn't. I bet you'd let a girl go off to her doom all by herself.

Xander: Not just any girl. You're special.

 

 

I love that exchange too. Also:

 

Cordelia:  Because you're just sitting there. You should be thinking up a *plan*.

Xander:  I have a plan. We wait. Buffy saves us.

Cordelia:  How will she even know where to find us?

Xander:  Cordelia, this is Buffy's house. Odds are she'll find us.

 

Cordelia/Xander was a total cliché and yet it somehow worked like a charm for me. Don't know how, don't know why, Maybe because both members of the couple always seemed to be having fun together, even when they were bickering.

 

So many quotable lines in this episode:

 

Kendra:  Oh. Dey call me Kendra. I have no last name, sir.

Buffy:  Can you say 'stuck in the 80's'?

 

Buffy:  You and bug people, Xander. What's up with that?

 

Xander:  Okay. Okay. He can only be killed when he's in his disassembled state. (to Cordelia) Disassembled. That means when he's broken down into his liiittle buggy parts.

Cordelia:  I know what it means, *dorkhead*.

Xander:  (takes mock offense) Dorkhead! You slash me with your words!

Edited by Jack Shaftoe

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Wow...just...wow. I'm much happier, I think, being where I am, thanks all the same. So much bitterness, over a freaking TV show, after all this time.

 

So much condescension, over a freaking TV show, after all this time.

 

Spoiler

JM's ex post facto rationalizations don't change my opinions any more than yours do, don't worry.

 I'll stick to the actual text of the actual episodes, "thanks all the same".

 

And "thin line between love and hate" is an old, old excuse for bad writing, IMO. Again, this is an episode where Buffy tries to kill Spike and celebrates his "death", while Spike is annoyed that one minion bothered to let Buffy live and has so little interest in her (as opposed to his arc-long obsession with Drusilla) that he leaves her execution to another.  Rather over the "line", I'd say.  (The line is a dot to them!)

 

Spoiler

But, OTOH, in the next episode, Buffy kicks the shit out of Ted, stabs him with her nail file, and ultimately smashes him into parts with a cast-iron skillet…expressions of her repressed love, perhaps?  I mean, if one follows that same logic. Well, Buffy/Ted would have a nice 'ship name, it's true…Bed, baby!  Nobody beats the machine!

 

ETA:  I always love that Cordelia is both a Summer and a Winter.  And that she comes back to the Library to help out, even after everything, not to mention her stompy revenge on Norman.  (And that's for Mrs. Kalish, you big cootie!)  Still, I think Xander might have out-logiced her in the basement, it's true:

 

Quote

CORDELIA:  You should be thinking up a plan!

XANDER:  I have a plan. We wait. Buffy saves us.

CORDELIA:  How will she even know where to find us?

XANDER:  Cordelia, this is Buffy's house. Odds are she'll find us.

 

Heh.

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There's text, and then there's subtext. BtVS is very much open to interpretation, and that's all this is: my interpretation of what I saw. It's based on multiple viewings of the episodes and discussions with other fans.

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But IMO "subtext" should not become "stating opinion as fact", which I felt your first post in this thread did.  Speaking only of my own reaction, it rankles, especially when it goes against the main text of the series.  

Spoiler

(Spike never thinks of Buffy romantically before Out of My Mind and is initially shocked and horrified by the idea; Buffy doesn't seem to have any romantic impulses before Once More, with Feeling, and even then tells Spike "This isn't real, but I just want to feel.")

 It feels to me that an attempt is being made to force a specific, non-canonical reading, rather than discussing the episode as it is.

 

I promise that when we get to discussing S6 episodes, I won't be searching for Buffy/Angel "subtext" left and right.  (Okay, that's partly because I don't give a hoot about B/A, but still.)  I'd love it if the same held true in reverse, here.  JMO.

 

Also, looking back at that first post, I disagree not only with the theme, but also with every example cited therein:

 

Quote

We also get more parallels between Buffy and Spike:

Handbooks are out
Jealousy is in
Fire is essential

 

a) "Handbooks are out."  There's no such thing as a vampire handbook, and in fact this episode shows Spike being a ritualistic, Order of Aurelius vampire more than at any other time in the series.  He calls on higher powers (Elligor) and performs an ancient ritual, literally going "by the book".  The Master wouldn't have done things any differently.

 

b) "Jealousy is in."  Is Buffy showing romantic jealousy in this episode?  She's protective of Angel, not threatened by his potential attraction to Darla (as In Angel), Cordelia (as in Halloween) or Drusilla (as in Lie to Me).  Her "nobody messes with my boyfriend" speech is about keeping Angel from violence, not worrying about his affections being alienated.  It's also aimed at Spike (she cites him by name) so unless Buffy is supposed to be thinking that Angel and Spike are lovers, it's definitely not about her being "jealous" in any way.  (Although if Buffy is suspecting a Spangel hookup, I guess that makes "Spike is going down" an unfortunate choice of words. [spike does couch his history with Angel in romantic terms to Willy, it's true, but I'm pretty sure he's kidding, given that he does NOT, in fact, take Angel for "dinner and a movie".])

 

Buffy does seem to jealously guard her role as Slayer and feel threatened by Kendra's closeness to Giles…but until Buffy and Giles start making out, I have a hard time drawing a parallel between "did you get how they were vibing? 'Volume 6, ha-ha-ha!'" and Spike's reaction to Dru playing with Angel's chest. The fact that Buffy and Spike both have (different kinds of) insecurities doesn't make them "destined", IMO, no more than the fact that they both have (different kinds of) hair. Insecurity is universal.  (Lord knows that Angel is insecure about Buffy often enough; he's shown major insecurities about Buffy's feelings for him in 5 of the 8 previous episodes he's appeared in this season.)

 

c) "Fire is essential."  Neither Buffy nor Spike employs fire as a weapon in this episode.  They both take part in a battle during which a fire eventually breaks out, but so do Kendra, Patrice, Willow, Giles, and random vampires, with Angel, Drusilla and Willy conflict-adjacent. (And Xander, Cordelia and Squishy Norman out in the hallway.) What of it?

 

I could make an IMO as-convincing "subtext" case for Buffy/Giles (did I mention the jealousy? Or Buffy's being hurt that Giles pre-judged her?) or Buffy/Willow (Buffy stands up to Kendra about Willow's place in the group, and Willow fiercely defends Buffy to Kendra in turn; Willow is all hurt-face at the thought of Buffy giving up Slaying [and leaving her?]; Willow seems more intent on bandaging Buffy's knee than fretting about Oz getting shot) based on this episode, but I don't feel that making it the focus of the episode discussion serves any purpose.  

Spoiler

I also don't believe that the fact that Buffy and Spike hook up four years and dozens of traumas later makes the alleged Spuffy "subtext" any more valid, IMO.

 

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Because, again, we were presented with main text reasons for Spuffy in the narrative, and I can't see why we should jettison those and employ "subtext" which spikes the main text narrative here.  If the main text of S6 is to be taken as valid, then I feel that the same consideration should be afforded to the main text of S2.  And I'd rather focus on that, IMO, than be debating how much these episodes "prove" or don't prove that Buffy and Spike are "perfect" together, when they're nowhere near together at this point.

 

But JMO.  And said with proper respect for diversity of opinions and restraint in tone, I hope.

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On 6/20/2014 at 1:17 PM, Lisin said:

 

Willow and Oz! Xander and Cordy! EEE! It's all happening! Sorry, I'm not really that huge a shipper, I just think Willow and Oz are cute, and I like it when characters I like get to be happy. Even if it's short lived. Again, not a ton to say about this one other than I like it quite a lot. I hadn't realized that until this rewatch. 

Yes this is the ep for couples EXCEPT Jenny and Giles, that would have made it perfect. 

On 6/20/2014 at 9:24 PM, Dianthus said:

Angelus will delight in mocking Spike's masculinity, but here he goads Spike into staking him for a better purpose, before Dru puts a stop to it, lead ing to one of my favorite Spike quotes:

"The lions are onto you, Baby." 

Even with his soul, Angel can still push Spike's buttons, Liam must have had the seeds of Angelus in there someone. 

On 6/20/2014 at 11:37 PM, DAngelus said:

But, if we're going to go that far for "foreshadowing", shouldn't we assume that Willow subconsciously knew that Buffy was bisexual and was looking to hook Buffy and Drusilla up?  Busilla, baby…now there's an OTP I can get behind!

Spoiler

Poor Kendra, dead because nobody can see the truth.

 And my only serious "fuck you, Giles" moment in actual canon, before we get to the bad fanfiction that was the DawnVerse, where suddenly "Giles treats Xander like shit" is supposed to be funny, over and over again.  Sigh.

 

Read a great Busilla slashfic once, something like 'Love and Trust and Monsters', actually made perfect sense. 

Does Giles ever put Xander down? I mean they spar with one another?

On 6/22/2014 at 3:18 PM, wingster55 said:

Even though I like both Willow and Oz more then Xander and Cordy individually, the latter still makes the #1 spot of my all time favorite Buffy-verse couple, 

Spoiler

Mine too until Tara comes along

.

On 6/22/2014 at 4:52 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

 

 

I love that exchange too. Also:

 

Cordelia:  Because you're just sitting there. You should be thinking up a *plan*.

Xander:  I have a plan. We wait. Buffy saves us.

Cordelia:  How will she even know where to find us?

Xander:  Cordelia, this is Buffy's house. Odds are she'll find us.

 

Ironically of course, she doesn't.

Frankly to quote Joss, bring your own subtext. Personally I was always a Fuffer. 

The Good; Xander and Cordy get together, inevitable really. But Willow and Oz also take their first real steps towards a relationship. The shootout at the careers fair with Jonathon held hostage for the first time. Dru torturing Angel and Angel goading Spike into almost killing him. Great fight, great final twist, the sight of an arisen Dru carrying Spike is awesome.

The Bad; If you can find some, let me know because I can't

Best line; Xander; "I am the bug man, coo-coo coo chu"

Questions and observations; Although not a Scooby yet Oz is shot, the second in a long line to be so plus Angel chained up. Buffy and Kendra torture Willy the Snitch, the Scoobs really having no problem with it. Cordy's wet dress is pretty daring not to mention Willy offering Buffy and Kendra a nude photoshoot 

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(one day Buffy won't be so dainty having her affair with Spike)

but not half as extreme as the kinkfest which is Dru and Angel (she calls him a 'bad dog' and even more disturbingly 'daddy') . Note that Dru seems to genuinely miss her family

Spoiler

(whilst Angelus glibly killed his)

 implying once again that Dru and Spike are exceptional vamps with remnants of humanity (possibly due to Dru's link to the PTB?). Despite his reputation Spike meanwhile seems to have no taste for torture commenting that he'd rather just see Angel die than the pre-show. Isn't it a bit risky for Dru to have Holy Water lying around? The Dru/Spike/Angel(us) jealousy triangle rears it's ugly if fascinating head. In terms of jealousy we also have Kendra and Buffy competing for Giles' attention like two little girls with their father, it's interesting to contrast that later with

Spoiler

Buffy and Dawn (and Faith?) vying for Joyce's affections.

For a long time I thought the police woman assassin was Pat Tallman from Babylon 5 (who's also a stuntwoman) but it's not.
If Kendra was taken from her family to be trained at an early age, why wasn't Buffy? Although you can imagine Joyce and Hank's reaction if Merrick turned up at their door and said "Hey, I need to take your little daughter away to train her to fight the powers of evil" (they'd probably call the police and/or shoot him). Kendra's Watcher is called Sam Zebuto, confirming for the first time that not all Watchers are automatically British despite the Council's full name. Don't the council think Giles' and co need to know of Kendra's existence? Willow nails her first vamp whilst Cordy helps Xander kill the bug man.

So did Kendra and Buffy dream up this plan between them all along or did Kendra follow Buffy to the church and then call all the Scoobies? Or was the argument at Willy's place all a show and the rest of the Scoobies tailed her and Willy knowing he'd lead them to Spike? So why is the contract called off? That is lame and it's the only reason the ep gets 8/10 rather than top marks. Reminds me off Star Trek;Voyager where they'd find a way to return to Earth one week only to conveniently forget about it the next

8/10 for THAT ending alone

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1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

If Kendra was taken from her family to be trained at an early age, why wasn't Buffy?

I believe that it's been stated that while Watchers do have the list of "potentials", they don't know all the potentials and Buffy is one who "slipped through the cracks". This is the explanation in Season 7 for 

Spoiler

Kennedy having a Watcher/trainer and ..... (forgot her name) the black girl not knowing anything about Slayers until the Bringers attacked her.

I assume that the supernatural was more widely accepted in Kendra's area, so the Watchers felt more comfortable approaching her family about her starting training as a potential Slayer and taking her away to be trained. In LA, it would have been more difficult (assuming they even knew about Buffy) to approach Joyce & Hank, nevermind taking Buffy away for training.

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19 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Kendra's Watcher is called Sam Zebuto, confirming for the first time that not all Watchers are automatically British despite the Council's full name.

Given Kendra's accent and Sam's likely age, it's quite probable that he was born before Jamaica became independent of the UK in 1962.  (Which, with this being a 1997 episode, means Sam needs be no older than 35…Giles is 41, by way of contrast.)  If that's the case, then Sam is a British citizen by birth, ancestry aside.

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13 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Given Kendra's accent and Sam's likely age, it's quite probable that he was born before Jamaica became independent of the UK in 1962.  (Which, with this being a 1997 episode, means Sam needs be no older than 35…Giles is 41, by way of contrast.)  If that's the case, then Sam is a British citizen by birth, ancestry aside.

It's the Watcher's council of Great Britain but obviously has people from the rest of the Britain/ Commonwealth

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I woke up the other day and I thought: what if at the end of an episode Kendra stayed a little longer in SunnyD and eventually she and Buffy realized they liked each other more than just a sisters-slayers (if you know what I mean)?

Could "Angelus crisis" ever happen? The blood, the death, the angst? Would Buffyverse history follow a different path?

Buffy_what's_my_line_part_2_kendra_and_buffy_still.jpg

Edited by lembergwatcher

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On ‎24‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 5:39 AM, Halting Hex said:

If "my emotions give me power, they're total assets" isn't set up for grabbing Kendra and kissing her real hard, I don't know what is. ;)

And Willy could take some tasteful pictures?

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And speaking of kissing people real hard, if Xander and Cordelia don't want people to hear them discussing what happened in Buffy's basement (never mind witnessing the repeat), then maybe they should, you know, close the classroom door?  

Honestly, it looks as though half the student body is passing by in the background; you'd think somebody have noticed Cordelia Chase talking to the school loser, even before they move to sucking face.

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Buffy: They need Drusilla's sire. You mean the vamp that made her?

Giles: Yes.

Willow: Buffy, what is it?

Buffy: (looks down) Angel. He's Drusilla's sire.

Xander: Man, that guy got major neck in his day!

Willow slaps him hard on the shoulder.

So what was that violence for? Did Xander lie? Or was Willow secretly drooling for Angel (just like Buffy and Cordelia did)? The girl in love is a deadly weapon - so don't piss her off, Xander, boy. And don't ever say holy Angel's name in vain, you, insignificant mortal!

Spoiler

Because the girls can be quite vindictive and exclude you totally from their bonding sessions in the subsequent seasons...

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He didn't lie, he was just being inappropriate.  (Buffy is worried about her boyfriend's life; discussion of Angel's earlier profligate days is hardly called for, right now.)

Besides, there's the thought that this sort of thwappage is actually a sign of affection.  

Spoiler

(As Willow will claim in Phases.)

So between this and Buffy's smacking his hands over the "you're not wrong" hint he dropped to Ford in Lie to Me, Xander should be a happy little Three Musketeer, it seems.

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Aren't there supposed to be some general rules applying to all vampires? If some of the Master's tertiary minions was able to do this

BTVS102-01733.thumb.jpg.027b7b6041dbc3f83354e8c9a37d00e2.jpg

how come Angel isn't able to break through some lame-looking cage? Vampires are either ten times stronger than humans or not. Why should Willy's cage be an obstacle?

Meanwhile the honorary title of The Biggest Dick in the Watchers Council goes to non-other than Sam Zabuto. For shitty treatment of his Slayer, of course, even by the WC standards. Making Kendra travel in the cargo bay, not lifting a finger when the girl had only one freakin' shirt to wear and not allowing her to even approach guys, to name but a few. Since when does the word "Slayer" mean a nun? 

Btw, this episode has one of the hottest semi-lesbian moments in the whole show IMO. I mean the scene at Giles office. After Kendra threatens to "wipe de floor" with Buffy, our heroine approaches Slayer #2 with some longing in her eyes. I get the feeling she's about to grab the other girl and kiss her passionately on the lips. It's a pity Kendra didn't stay in Sunnydale, Mr. Zabuto is obviously opposed to her relationship with guys - however there's no indication he takes the same stand against girls.

BTVS210-02488.thumb.jpg.869377dd4314ee3521b5edcab3520b68.jpg

Spoiler

Only Buffy/Faith interactions look hotter to me while Willow/Tara is just lame compared to this.

Edited by lembergwatcher

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"Two Slayers, no waiting!" Rawr.  No wonder Willy was hoping his friend with the camera could take some "art stuff, but naked" pictures of the girls.

(I think Kendra only brought the One Shirt with her, not that she only has the one.  Since her means of travel rather precludes her packing a bag, after all.)

Also, please note that Willow seems a good deal more interested in tending to Buffy's knee than she is about caring for Oz, who only got shot, after all.  Sorry, Mr. Monkeypants; Buffy comes first. 🙂

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On 4/6/2019 at 9:44 PM, Halting Hex said:

I think Kendra only brought the One Shirt with her, not that she only has the one

Something tells me such probability (a teenage girl bringing just one shirt while travelling abroad) is as low as, to quote Xander, a sixteen-year-old girl unplugging her phone.

On 4/6/2019 at 9:44 PM, Halting Hex said:

Since her means of travel rather precludes her packing a bag, after all.

The fact that only strengthens my point considering Sam Zabuto.

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While checking for Spice Williams [Patrice] in the end credits, I noticed the bit at the beginning where Giles is explaining to Kendra that some "civilians" know Buffy's identity as the Slayer, and "Willow is one of them"…and Aly gives a lovely smart-ass quirk of the lips there.  Nice detail work.

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Jenny Trout:

Quote

Hey, they said this was an abandoned church. Why is all this church stuff still in there? Organs are like, massively expensive. You can sell those.

Hmm, it does look rather un-looted, at that.  But "this being Sunnydale and all…", I'm thinking the local version of "traffic in stolen organs" is less about keyboards and maybe something more…organic.

And sure, Willy could make enough money in church equipment that he didn't need to rely on his "friend with a camera"…but why put the local "art photographer" out of business?  Just think, Kendra could give Buffy a full-body massage with baby oil…Cordelia did say that Buffy needed to learn how to moisturize, after all.  And Kendra should make sure to take her clothes off, too…after all, if that's her only shirt, we wouldn't want it to get grease spots on it, right?

"…okay!  I'm back."  —Sid, The Puppet Show.  Sorry about that.

One of Jenny's commenters thought that it was perhaps culturally insensitive that Kendra was represented by the Jaguar in Drusilla's tarot deck; "exotic" foreign person represented by exotic animal, etc.  But, of course, Kendra wasn't the 3rd Tarakan, the "jaguar", after all.  That would be Patrice:

officerdeathkill.png

Doesn't look very "exotic", I don't think.  Maybe she drives a Jaguar™?

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20 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

"…okay!  I'm back."  —Sid, The Puppet Show.  Sorry about that.

It's apparently a Sid-quotey kind of day.

20 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Doesn't look very "exotic", I don't think.  Maybe she drives a Jaguar™?

That's what happens when you select a full human from "The Three" catalog. The assassins may not match the pictures, but you rent them "as is." No backsies.

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WILLY: Now, there's a way in which this isn't my fault!

SPIKE: They tricked you.

WILLY: Mm-hm! They were duplicitous!

SPIKE: Well, then I'll only kill you just this once.

Oh, Spike…  (or, "oh, Marti…", I guess)

"Duplicitous" doesn't mean "they" (Buffy, etc.) undertook extra actions; it means they represented the actions as being something other than what they were.  They were "two-faced", in other words.  (Maybe if Ethan comes back to town, he has a spare statue of Janus he can use to clue you in?)

If the Slayers and the Slayerettes had taken twice as many actions as need be, and thus duplicated their efforts, that would make the actions duplicative, not "duplicitous".  Did Angel raise you in a barn or something?  Sigh.

And you were doing so well, before:

Quote

(Buffy is distraught to see Angel being drained by the Elligor-spell)

BUFFY: (whispers) Angel.

SPIKE: Yeah. (steps over to Buffy) It bugs me, too, seeing him like that. Another five minutes, though, and Angel will be dead, so... I forebear. Don't feel too bad for Angel, though, he's got something you don't have.

BUFFY: What's that?

SPIKE: Five minutes. Patrice!

See, here Spike takes the time to establish his facts (Angel will be dead in five minutes) before advancing them in support of his argument (Angel will live longer than Buffy).  Well done, William…we'll make a rhetorician of you yet!

As long as nobody asks Spike to

Spoiler

rhyme

, he should be golden 🙂

Edited by Halting Hex

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On 6/20/2014 at 1:17 PM, Lisin said:

Angel, whose blood, ritually spilled when the moon is full

Nope, wrong, full stop.  Even the source Lisin quotes here is confused, because Spike does say "full moon", but Giles is correct when he says it's the new moon that's happening.  The script properly has Spike say "new moon" as well, but…

Quote

DRUSILLA:  Angel?

Spike roughly throws Angel into the corner.

SPIKE:  The one and only. Now all we need is the new moon tonight. Then he will die and you will be fully restored-

…as you can see, Spike's next line contains the word "fully" and so James gets it mixed up.  

But that's outside the episode.  Inside, I guess Spike just can't tell a new moon from a full one.  Add this to his trouble telling "duplicitous" from "duplicative" as described above, and the possibility that

Spoiler

his problems with rhyming stem from dyslexia, as I theorized about in the FFL thread,

 and, well, no wonder he wants Dru restored so deeply.  Vamp's got problems enough of his own, it appears.

Of note:  the WML2 script indicates that the episode was originally titled The New Slayer.  Generally speaking, most 2-parters avoided "Part 1/Part 2" titles;  I wonder why this one was changed?

Edited by Halting Hex

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The weirdest part about this particular episode is the supposed "super villain" Norman Pfister's tardiness. Yeah, he cannot enter the Casa Summers' basement in his maggot form, but why on earth can't Pfister break down the freakin' basement door while he's in his human form?? He's not a wimp, at least he shouldn't be, considering who his employers are... It seems like Noxon or whoever wrote this ep wanted Xander and Cordelia to "hook up" so badly, she didn't notice the Tarakan's behavior was totally illogical...

Besides, contract killers do business and thus should realize the value of time. Was Mr. Pfister going to wait forever in case Xander and Cordelia decide to fornicate like rabbits while hiding in Buffy's basement?

Of course, nothing beats the sheer stupidity of the way Willow/Oz "romance' started in the previous ep. Some software company wants to recruit Oz along with Willow because he's a "computer genius" just like the redhead? Gimme a break... Oz is as "good" with computers as Giles.

Spoiler

Does anyone remember the Guitarboy even approaching the computer (except that one time in Gingerbread)? Seems like "Oz the computer genius" plotline died long before him and Willow started dating...

But, of course, none of these matters if Team Joss wants to force all those "canon couples" down our throats...

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17 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Of course, nothing beats the sheer stupidity of the way Willow/Oz "romance' started in the previous ep. Some software company wants to recruit Oz along with Willow because he's a "computer genius" just like the redhead?

Why not?  Oz is a new character; there's no reason he can't be intellectually gifted.  After all, we'll eventually learn that

Spoiler

both Cordelia and Buffy also "test well"

, and we hadn't known that before, either.

And it's not as if Willow falls for Oz just because Computer Company vetts his IQ;  the meeting is just a pretext so that they can finally talk to each other.  But it takes more than that to win Willow's affections, since she talks to people all the time.   If conversation were all that was required, she and Buffy would have been swapping spit by the end of the pilot.

As it is, we don't even know that Compute Company thinks Oz is exceptionally gifted; for all we know, they just want a guitarist for their house band.

It would be amusing to consider whether they would have selected Morgan (The Puppet Show) instead of Oz if Demon!Marc hadn't sliced Morgan's brain.  After all, since Marc focused on Morgan rather than Oz (or Willow), presumably he was intellectually superior.

And what about Chris Epps (Some Assembly Required), who always beats Willow at the Science Fair, we're informed?  If he wasn't off coping with the fallout of the incident with Darryl, would he have been serving Willow canapes?  Ah, the possibilities…

Spoiler

By the way, Oz volunteers to help Willow with the computer work in Graduation Day, Part 1, but she's too territorial to share.

 

Edited by Halting Hex

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2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

And it's not as if Willow falls for Oz just because Computer Company vetts his IQ;  the meeting is just a pretext so that they can finally talk to each other.

They could have chosen a better pretext 😉 Like meeting backstage after the Dingoes gig. JMO, of course.
Then again "intellectualy gifted" doesn't mean computer genius 

Spoiler

and I have yet to try and find some proof of Oz's supposed intellectualism. Sounding witty or having all this "cool" aura around aren't exactly the signs of high intellect.

As for volunteering to help Willow with the computer work in GD, Pt 1, I guess anyone could've done that. Even Xander 🙂

 

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BUFFY (quietly):  Angel.  He's Drusilla's sire.

XANDER (admiring):  Man!  That guy got major neck in his day.

Xander's commentary here is not well-received (Willow hits him), but it's not just because it could be seen as insensitive; it's because he's working off of information that, as far as we know, nobody else has.

Remember, only Xander was with Angel and Spike when they had the discussion about Angel being Spike's sire in School Hard, so presumably only he knows that Angel is responsible for the creation of both of their current antagonists.  Yes, he could have updated the group later, but we have no evidence that he did, and given that Angel dodged his questions after the fight, what was he going to say, exactly?

Quote

XANDER:  Oh, and, Buffy?  Spike said something about Angel being his "sire", but Angel wouldn't tell me what that meant.  Do you know?  'Cause I'm almost getting the impression they used to…date or something?

BUFFY:  Xander!  Don't make stuff up; that's just cheap.  Angel isn't gay…trust me!

GILES:  Well, it's not impossible for two men to have…a history, without it necessarily meaning—

JENNY:  (raises eyebrow)

BUFFY:  (gives LOOK OF DEATH)

GILES:  Or, er, so I've heard.  Never mind.  Now about Saturday, we should still remain on guard…

So this may be one of those times when Xander has X-tra knowledge working for him.  But it's understandable if he doesn't fill everyone in, IMO.

**********************

On 2/15/2021 at 7:49 AM, lembergwatcher said:

but why on earth can't Pfister break down the freakin' basement door while he's in his human form?? He's not a wimp, at least he shouldn't be, considering who his employers are.

Well, as amusing as the idea of Kelly Connell (not exactly known for playing physical parts) smashing doors like the Hulk might be, there's no actual reason for us to assume that super-strength is among Norman's demonic attributes.  Maybe he's not as strong as Octaurus, but on the other hand, he has the maggot powers other demons don't.  So I'm not surprised he doesn't resort to brute force here.

Besides, let's not forget, Xander and Cordelia aren't his targets…Buffy is.  As much as he might enjoy a pre-Slayer snack, the bickering teens are nothing more than a distraction.  As long as Norman has them confined to the basement, he can simply wait for Buffy to return, unsuspecting, and ambush her.  (CC doesn't seem to have the cell phone she displayed in Welcome to the Hellmouth, so they can't warn Buffy.)  And he's also prepared for X/C attempting to run for it, as we see in the episode.  Whether they stay put or try to escape, he's good either way.  No hurling his delicate larvae against the woodwork required.  JMO.

Edited by Halting Hex

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23 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

XANDER:  Oh, and, Buffy?  Spike said something about Angel being his "sire", but Angel wouldn't tell me what that meant.  Do you know?  'Cause I'm almost getting the impression they used to…date or something?

BUFFY:  Xander!  Don't make stuff up; that's just cheap.  Angel isn't gay…trust me!

I think it's quite possibly for vampires to have their own view on sexuality which is quite different from the human vision.

23 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

there's no actual reason for us to assume that super-strength is among Norman's demonic attributes

Does breaking down the door require actual super-strength? Even Kelly Connell-types can do it time after time, I guess. 

23 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Besides, let's not forget, Xander and Cordelia aren't his targets…Buffy is.  As much as he might enjoy a pre-Slayer snack, the bickering teens are nothing more than a distraction.

Well, I do remember he's after Buffy but Norman has already killed a non-Buffy person so there aren't too many reasons not to add Xordelia to the hit list. And as much as Xander & Cordy seem insignificant with regard to the bigger picture, how about, you know, the thrill of the kill? If he can do it right then and there, why wait? He can satisfy his desire for the kill by slaughtering X/C in cold blood, then have some spare time for the snack and watching porno on Mrs. Summers' telly while waiting for his prime target. 

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