The Honourable Woman - General Discussion

[alexvillage]

I think I need to watch from episode one again. I started not very enthusiastically but there is too much happening and I am lost with many characters :/

[Rickster]

I was a bit confused on what exactly they were tracking back to the US Embassy (the dot on the screen). I thought the idea was to see who came out the fix the piggyback on the sniffer when it was turned off.

My assumption was that the Americans are trying to keep anyone from finding out about their piggyback on the sniffer, which is why the Palestinian was killed. Monica is for some reason working with the CIA as well.

While I love Stephen Rea and would happily watch a show centering on him and the rest of MI-6, I think the weak spot of this series is anyone with the last name of Stein. The whole soapy family dynamic seems at odds with the rest of the series.

[Auntie Anxiety]

 

Because of that fake dossier, Shlomo was out of the running for Stage Three.

I thought the real reason he was out of the running was because Ephra Stein owed the Palestinians as part of the deal to get Nessa back but Nessa was made to believe that Schlomo had a shady deal what with the money transfer.  Or maybe I'm just thoroughly confused like so many other viewers.

[attica]

God, Ephra and his man-pain. Give me strength.

 

This made me snort my orange juice. Hee! (And, yeah.)

 

I think Kasim is the boy shot. And I think Saleh (burny guy) knows he's his and Nessa's kid. Wasn't his dialogue about "I have a brave son like you" kind of anvilly in that direction? (Plus, the actor who plays Kasim is in the credits for this ep.)

[alexvillage]

The recap on the Sundance Channel website does not refer to the boy as Kasim. It says he is a "young Muslim boy" or "his host's son". I thought the kid looked a little older than Kasim

[Cardie]

That boy looked thinner and darker than Kasim. Saleh of course saw in him a likeness to Kasim but the anvils were metaphorical, imo. Two other actors are credited as sons of the man who is hosting Saleh.

[Llywela]

Kasim was not the child who got shot in the house where Scarface was staying - that was the son of his reluctant host, we'd seen them together earlier. We also saw Scarface telling the little boy that he had a son about his age, referring to Kasim, the child he fathered by rape.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Llywela

[alexvillage]

He also told the host "your son is strong" before running out the door

[Kris117]

Yes, that wasn't Kasim, but his host's son. I was hoping the kid would shoot Saleh, which would be gratifying and would also create a big mess. Saleh saying (paraphrasing here), "I've had to do things I didn't want to because I was ordered to, and a good soldier follows orders," made me wonder to what he was referring. Did he not want to kidnap Nessa in the first place as revenge for his family, but his father ordered him to? Was he happy to kidnap her, but ordered to rape her against his will? I remember that he had to work himself up into a rage before he went in the cell where Nessa and Atika were. Was that just part of his revenge ritual, or did he have to do that because he didn't want to rape Nessa? Or did he kidnap Nessa per his father's orders and the rape was his idea?

I don't remember seeing any scenes with Kasim in them since he's been kidnapped. Have there been any, and I'm just not remembering? My guess is that he's with Saleh's father.

I agree with what Mark and posters here have said about disliking seeing rape used as a plot device. However, Gyllenhal was very powerful in that scene. I believed she was turned on by the way the rapist was treating her at the same time she was frightened by his promises of violence, and that somewhere she believed she deserved to be treated like that. She was also so drunk that her reactions were delayed, as if she was responding to what he had said two sentences before instead of what he had just said. A very complex scene masterfully done.

Dubbel Zout, I agree that Lindsay Duncan is underused here. She functions more as a plot device to show how serving in MI-6 has messed up Hugh and been a vehicle to wreck his marriage. "No, honey, I haven't been spying on you with a pair of binoculars."

I believe that Atika is mixed up in this in some way. I'm not sure if she is involved in Kasim's kidnapping, but I think she was part of Nessa's kidnapping in some way. I don't think she knew the full extent of what she was getting into. Her offer to pose as Kasim's mother might have been part of the tangle, using her as a way to keep tabs on Kasim and the Stein family, seeing as how both Nessa and Eprah were attracted to her.

I'm not sure if any of the above will turn out to be true, but they are thoughts that have passed through my head.

One little detail I was impressed by: the shot of the murdered whistleblowing professor in a pile of discarded lemons in the previouslies was immediately followed by a shot of the lemon in Nessa's drink (or maybe it was the rapist's drink). A nice bit of editing and cinematography there.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Kris117

[attica]

Okay; thanks to all who put me straight about the victim of Chekhov's gun. I'll pay better attention, promise!

[alexvillage]

 

I believe that Atika is mixed up in this in some way. I'm not sure if she is involved in Kasim's kidnapping

I don't think she is. She is the only one who is shown worried and missing the kid

 

 

I'll pay better attention, promise!

There is so much happening in this show, it is easy to get confused. At least it is easy for me. I will have to re-watch and read recaps to completely follow the many plots and characters 

[Cardie]

I don't think she is. She is the only one who is shown worried and missing the kid

 

The only thing that leads me to believe Atika knew the kidnaping would happen was the scene of her at Kasim's bedside the night before, as she stroked his hair while he slept and looked worried/sad/conflicted. I think she does love him and is missing him. She probably wouldn't have come up with a plan to kidnap him on her own. But my guess is she knew what was coming as part of her involvement in whatever the long game being played here is.

[Llywela]

The only thing that leads me to believe Atika knew the kidnaping would happen was the scene of her at Kasim's bedside the night before, as she stroked his hair while he slept and looked worried/sad/conflicted. I think she does love him and is missing him. She probably wouldn't have come up with a plan to kidnap him on her own. But my guess is she knew what was coming as part of her involvement in whatever the long game being played here is.

Atika also made a point of telling Kasim to be brave as she saw him off...to a musical recital, hardly a place one would expect a little boy to need to be brave. She also chose to stay home that evening, without any reason being given.

[dubbel zout]

She also chose to stay home that evening, without any reason being given.

Does she really need to give one? While I'm coming around to the idea that she might be involved in this whole thing, I also think not every action (or non-action or reaction) of hers has some greater meaning. 

[rubyred]

Wow I completely missed the fact that the boy was not Kasim. I noticed his hair was longer and he seemed a little bigger, but I guess not having seen Kasim since ep 1 made me assume that this was where he was being held.

 

As for Atika's role, she seems pretty capable of having more than one emotion at the same time. She could be complicit in all of it and still be conflicted.

 

I've been thinking about the title of the show and how Nessa, despite her efforts to be an honourable woman, has been compromised so fully both by things out of her control (MI6, Ephra, Palestinians, Israelis) and by her own actions (keeping a secret baby secret). When she shouted at Ephra about how he had made her a puppet -- that was really gutwrenching. At every turn she's seeing how the life she thought she was leading has been a fabrication, and that she has never had the control over the situation that she thought she did. And now she's in this spiral of shame and self-abuse that is hard to watch. Good job though, Maggie.

 

But the thing is...she doesn't understand about secrets. She thinks she does, in that speech at the open. But she keeps the wrong ones. Lying about ever being kidnapped; being Kasim's biomom; raped by a middle class sociopath- these are secrets that have power if she would only choose to use them to her benefit, instead of burying them. By not revealing them the only one who's paying the consequences is Nessa, not the perpetrator(s). I don't get that mindset.

 

Anyway I hope there's gonna be something more, because when I think of the fact that the central mysteries of the show are about a secret baby and a wiretap, it depresses me that it could have been solved by Woodward & Bernstein. What, about this situation, is complicated by the fact that it's present-day? I do appreciate the intelligence of the writing but I don't know how satisfying the conclusion is going to be if that's all they got.

[Llywela]

Does she really need to give one? While I'm coming around to the idea that she might be involved in this whole thing, I also think not every action (or non-action or reaction) of hers has some greater meaning. 

Oh, on its own it's completely innocuous. That's the point. It's only when you start to consider the possibility that she was complicit that you start to wonder if she stayed away for a reason - add that seemingly minor detail to the way she told Kasim to be brave when she said goodbye to him, the finality in that parting. None of it seems unusual on first viewing. But when I rewatched that first episode with the hindsight of later suspicions, halfway through the series...well, I came away with the definite impression that she knew what was going to happen.

 

But the thing is...she doesn't understand about secrets. She thinks she does, in that speech at the open. But she keeps the wrong ones. Lying about ever being kidnapped; being Kasim's biomom; raped by a middle class sociopath- these are secrets that have power if she would only choose to use them to her benefit, instead of burying them. By not revealing them the only one who's paying the consequences is Nessa, not the perpetrator(s). I don't get that mindset.

 

Anyway I hope there's gonna be something more, because when I think of the fact that the central mysteries of the show are about a secret baby and a wiretap, it depresses me that it could have been solved by Woodward & Bernstein.

I think your point about Nessa not understanding secrets is key there. The secret about the rape and the baby only has power over her because she gave it that power. She's probably right that owning her experience publicly would have fundamentally altered her ability to conduct her business in the manner she wanted to, but she could have faced up to that anyway. She chose not to. She imbued the secret with the power it now exerts over her. And that's what matters, far more than the significance or otherwise of the secret itself. It's like that old chestnut of the butterfly flapping its wings and causing a hurricane on the other side of the globe. Actions have ripple effects, that's basically what this show is all about. All these characters, acting and reacting according to their own beliefs and motivations and ideals and fears and desires, each of their actions sending out ripples that bounce off one another in unpredictable ways. When Nessa so despondently told Atika that she couldn't be a mother to her child and still retain her sense of self, she could never have imagined where that decision would ultimately lead. The nature of the secret in itself isn't as important as the fact of there being a secret - and the object at the heart of the mystery isn't as important as the consequences that come of it. Nessa's secret owns her, as Ephra would say, and the repurcussions of that are still playing out.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Llywela

[alexvillage]

 

I've been thinking about the title of the show and how Nessa, despite her efforts to be an honourable woman, has been compromised so fully both by things out of her control (MI6, Ephra, Palestinians, Israelis) and by her own actions (keeping a secret baby secret)

I re-watched the first episode and paid more attention to certain things I had not paid attention before. Keeping Kasim a secret still strikes me as odd. When I first watched the episode, I knew he was her son. Then came the explanations about why she was keeping the secret. But in re-watching it, when she talks to Atika she says she doesn't know if she can keep it for too long, I am assuming keeping the secret. I think she keeps Kasim a secret, yet close to her, because she wishes her mother was around for her, in any form. Before she met Atika, she was watching the home video that showed her mother's picture and the young Nessa visiting the cemetery. That's the only reason I see for her to keep the secret, because the other reason would be that she naively believes she would be able to solve the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and then play mommy with her son.

[alexvillage]

I watched the first episode again. Two things:

When Nessa goes out to meet Atika, she stops at a house, where she changes cars. It seems to me that she receives a package there, but then it is gone. Anyone noticed that too? Did I miss something?

 

The other is just a nitpick about the casting of the children. Nessa is about 35 years old, Kasim is about 7. When Nessa's father was murdered, she was about 6.

My nitpick is: the boy playing Ephra seems younger than Nessa, but he is older; The girl playing Nessa seems older than 6, older than the boy playing Kasim, who is 7.

[Cardie]

Nessa's mother dying while giving birth to her may motivate many of her actions. She wants to be worth that sacrifice, it seems to me, by doing something really important and life-affirming. I also wonder if her sexual proclivities, in seeking to be abused by men, may reflect some survivor guilt. She appears to have been very close to her father but I wonder whether she got from either him or Ephra any "you killed my beloved wife/mother" vibes. Eli Stein, of course, killed many Palestinians' wives and mothers.

[alexvillage]

I wasn't sure where to put this so it goes here, since it is on the Sundance Channel website.

The recaps: Sundance recap of Ep 1 says that Kasim is Meshal's son (?)

Recap of Ep 2 says that 

Ephra and Atika "make love". To me that was pure lust, so they just fucked

[mrsdalgliesh]

I'm happy to learn that everyone else is muttering to themselves, trying to sort out the details of the plot.  I have been out of town with a sick relative and caught up on the last two episodes yesterday.  I actually paused the DVR a few times, got up, and wandered around my empty house, talking to myself. "So...the Israeli's have power over Ephra because..." and "the original Palestinian bid winner was taken out because...." etc.  I finally went over to the Guardian recaps to get some clarity (should have come here and read Constantinople's post -- no spoiler temptation!).

 

But here's the thing (and forgive me if someone has already noted this) -- we're all having to sort it out ourselves because people on this show talk to each other *as they would* in these circumstances and not as exposition fairies, written for the viewer's benefit.  It's so rare.  I actually quit a show recently because one of the characters made a sarcastic remark to another character and then said, "by the way, I was just making a joke, I didn't really mean it." (almost a direct quote)

 

Love this show.

 

 

God, Ephra and his man-pain. Give me strength.

 

This made my day.

[Constantinople]

Some lady on The Honourable Woman agreed to something, but WHICH lady and WHAT thing??!?

http://previously.tv/the-honourable-woman/yes-she-agreed-but-who-is-she/"> Read the story

 

Left out Angelica Hayden-Hoyle

 

She's behind it all, punishing MI-6 for ruining her marriage, and the Israelis & Palestinians because they were her husband's "reward" for ruining the marriage.  She's doing it all while her soon to be ex-husband is spying on her.  Revenge, as the Klingons say, is a dish best served cold.  Nessa is just collateral damage.  Screw Nessa and her goody two-shoes BS.

[Milburn Stone]

But here's the thing (and forgive me if someone has already noted this) -- we're all having to sort it out ourselves because people on this show talk to each other *as they would* in these circumstances and not as exposition fairies, written for the viewer's benefit.  It's so rare.

 

Great point. 

 

How confused am I? So confused that I thought Scarface was the same guy who killed the bodyguard on Nessa's orders. And I thought the guy who killed the bodyguard on Nessa's orders was some sort of Mossad or Shin Bet guy. But I guess it doesn't make sense for an Israeli secret service guy to be hiding out with an Arab family. I also totally didn't recognize him as Nessa's rapist. But why would Nessa's rapist kill Nessa's bodyguard at her behest? Why would she have anything to do with her rapist? Oh wait, unless Nessa's rapist was the guy that killed Nessa's bodyguard, because when Nessa had the phone conversation that authorized the hit, she wasn't talking to one of her own men as I had assumed, she was talking to her Palestinian masters, and she had no idea her Palestinian masters would use that particular guy to carry out the hit. Am I starting to get it right?

[Cardie]

Scarface is both Nessa's rapist and the man who killed Nathaniel Bloom--after Nessa told the guy on the other end of her Special Phone that Bloom might be getting too close to the secret. At one point the man on the phone refers to his burned face, so Nessa has talked to Scarface and knows he's her rapist. I'm not sure that he's been the voice on the phone every time.Those on the other end of that killing call are affiliated with those who kidnapped Kasim. Scarface is, as he told his host's son, a soldier who does what those above him in the plot tell him to do. My working theory is that the kidnappers are Palestinians allied with his ailing father, who years earlier ordered the hit on Eli Stein. But there have to be other plots afoot that I've yet to figure out.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Cardie

[alexvillage]

A second watch of the episodes helped a lot. I didn't pay attention to something on episode 3: Nessa did contemplate telling the truth about Kasim but Atika refused. I agree that Atika might be part of the whole thing. I see her differently now. Calculating and too eager to convince Nessa that she should keep "the secret" secret. And her conversation about growing up in a refugee camp that still exists was also an indication that she is angry, not so compliant, but she seems to be planning something.

 

I hope the re-watching of the other episodes will clarify to me how, or why, the Americans are involved.

[dubbel zout]

I hope the re-watching of the other episodes will clarify to me how, or why, the Americans are involved.

 

I think the American involvement is peripheral. They are piggybacking on the sniffer and using whatever they hear for their own purposes. I would be very surprised if the Americans have anything to do with the Stein foundation and/or Nessa's kidnapping. I think the American angle shows that the cable lines would have a large impact.

[alexvillage]

But they tried to shut down the "suicide", and the scene before that shows Menshal looking at the American flag just before he died. Maybe a hint from the writers? Or maybe the Americans wanted Schlomo to keep the contract because he is a "friend" and could spy for the US. So many questions!  

[Cardie]

What confuses me most is that the Palestinians want an in with Nessa so as to get the phase three contract but don't seem involved in the Meshal situation. Is this a Palestinian faction thing, that Meshal was either the wrong Palestinian for the Americans to deal with or he was their double agent and was a lose end to be cleaned up  after"she" agreed to whatever she agreed.

[Primetimer]

But things go a little differently here than on all those other shows.

Read the story

[Cardie]

The contours of the plot finally become visible. The old terrorist arm of the PLO wanted to get an ownership stake in the Stein Company, the business equivalent of Saleh's father wanting to have his blood flowing through the veins of Eli's grandchild. They ally themselves with Palestinian sympathizers in the US and British governments so that the plot to take over all things Stein dovetails with a plot to frame Israeli extremists for killing the Steins, and thus to move Western governments to repudiate Israel. The only piece that still makes no sense to me is the Americans forcing Meshal into suicide. Couldn't he have been the one giving the Hebron handshake? Since he conveyed the "she has agreed" message, he must have been working with the Secretary of State's aide that Hugh is investigating. Perhaps because he had direct contact with her he could not be the Palestinian partner in the telecom project.

[Constantinople]

I don't think Caleb could carry an entire show, but I'd like to see the character in a larger role in another series.

I don't understand why the Steins are so ga ga over Atika.

I also don't think I'd like to work for Nessa. Her commitment to employee safety leaves something to be desired. I'd have to watch the explosion again, but after first watch she came off less favorably than George Costanza in The Fire.

The contours of the plot finally become visible. The old terrorist arm of the PLO wanted to get an ownership stake in the Stein Company, the business equivalent of Saleh's father wanting to have his blood flowing through the veins of Eli's grandchild. They ally themselves with Palestinian sympathizers in the US and British governments so that the plot to take over all things Stein...

Not sure why they killed Ephra since presumably anything he owned would pass to Rachel and their unborn child. So they'd only get halfsies (if the idea was that they'd have control of Kasim, and get him named as Nessa's heir). Saleh would have killed Rachel, but that wasn't part of the plan, just a reaction to an unforseen contingency.

...dovetails with a plot to frame Israeli extremists for killing the Steins, and thus to move Western governments to repudiate Israel.

But why would the Israeli extremist agree to it? It was a short scene, but he seemed reluctant. Also, I'm skeptical this would cause the US to repudiate Israel.

[mrsdalgliesh]

You are all doing a noble job in trying to explain this to me.  I'm still confused.  All I knew by the end of this episode is that I want Monica to die screaming.

[Cardie]

But why would the Israeli extremist agree to it?

 

For the same reasons everyone agrees to do things contrary to their interests in this show: either he's a double agent or Monica has some sort of leverage on him.  Or he's just an opportunist and is doing it for money.  All that was required was for him to post something on the internet. For all we know, this group is a complete fabrication and was always a tool of Monica's pro-Palestinian plot.

 

In the real world this wouldn't lead the US to condemn Israel but that seemed to be the gist of what the aide was saying the Sec'y of State might do.

 

Atika did turn out to be in on the conspiracy, as I always suspected, but at least she's not a monster and saved Rachel and the baby. I suspect her main duty in the larger scheme was to serve as honey trap and inside observer.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Cardie

[attica]

I'm surprised and pleased that all the dead bodies piling up aren't women, for a change. (Except for Frances, that is.) The women are all bad-assing their way through. I think that's a first for a political thriller.

 

Yeah, if I'm on that particular border operating heavy machinery and there's even the slightest glitch in the ignition? I'm not hanging around, let alone sit there pressing and re-pressing that switch. Hurr, let's see what happens if I press it really hard this time! Durr!

 

If I hadn't been watching all the seasons of Call the Midwife, I would have been unfamiliar with the doggy-style position Rachel was assuming in labor. But I have and I'm not. Whoo! 

 

Who was the guy in the restaurant with Lindsey Duncan that she wanted Hugh to see? Do we know yet?

[Llywela]

Who was the guy in the restaurant with Lindsey Duncan that she wanted Hugh to see? Do we know yet?

We don't know because his identity is completely unimportant. She was just making a point to Hugh that she is moving on with her life, because he's been stalking her and she's fed up with it and wants him to move on and leave her alone.

[attica]

I didn't get that from that scene at all. They didn't have social body language to my eye; it looked professional.

[Cardie]

I don't get why we have this ongoing plot at all. I think they could establish that Hugh sacrificed his marriage to his career and now regrets it with a lot more economy and surely without hiring someone as talented as Lindsay Duncan in a nothing role. Perhaps it's just to continue the theme of men feeling the right to control and manipulate women, even with someone as otherwise sympathetic as Hugh--and the rotters getting their comeuppance from said women.

[dubbel zout]

I've been mostly wrong about everything on this show except for Nessa having a sekrit Palestinian family, and I'm only partially right with that. I guess this is why I'm not in the spy game, hee.

 

I have a basic understanding of what's going on here, but I still don't understand why it had to happen this way, apart from that's the way it's written, if you know what I mean. But maybe that's the way to deal with it. But this whole thing planned as a long-term operation still seems utterly absurd to me, especially if the end result is to turn Israel's allies against it. (Though given my track record, I'm probably wrong about that being the end game here.)

 

I don't understand why the Steins are so ga ga over Atika.

 

I guess because of what she and Nessa went through? Atika was Nessa's lifeline during the kidnapping, and maybe Ephra feels beholden to her for that? I don't like Atika—she's way too prickly for me—but I admire that the show never tries to soften her edges.

 

What I don't get at all is the Ephra/Rachel relationship. Now I don't have to think about it anymore.

 

I think they could establish that Hugh sacrificed his marriage to his career and now regrets it with a lot more economy and surely without hiring someone as talented as Lindsay Duncan in a nothing role.

 

To see him spend so much time stalking his ex-wife makes him looks absolutely pathetic. Is it supposed to lull us into a false sense of security that he's as inept at his job as he is at personal relationships, and then when he's the one who pieces the Stein story together we're supposed to be shocked at his competency?

 

Regardless, Lindsay Duncan was TOTALLY wasted in this show.

 

 

 

All I knew by the end of this episode is that I want Monica to die screaming.

Heh. I kind of like that Monica is the rotten apple here. I hope her reasons for the betrayal are interesting. I am mildly hopeful they will be.

Edited September 12, 2014 by dubbel zout

[alexvillage]

 

But this whole thing planned as a long-term operation still seems utterly absurd to me, especially if the end result is to turn Israel's allies against it

I agree with you. Not to mention: no wikileaks? The Secretary of State is part of it/has a close advisor who is part of it and nobody knows? How inept would the whole American spy apparatus have to be to miss that? And an event in a heated conflict area, Israeli and Palestinians together and they are so sure that nobody will think to check for bombs? They were certain because they coordinated with Ephra's murder, so they are extremely organized, but not very realistic if all they want is to make Israel look bad and lose American support (ha ha). 

It seems more like revenge to me, personal, and Monica is the key to understand it. she is the one playing everyone. 

 

Poor Ephra. All happy and feeling like a teenager and the black widow makes her move. I never liked Atika either. 

[attica]

I kind of like that Monica is the rotten apple here.

 

Even Caleb kind of is admiring her! (Is it just me, or does anybody else occasionally amuse themselves by talking in Caleb-speak?)

[Constantinople]

I think Monica has watched Littlefinger's "Chaos is a ladder" speech from Game of Thrones one too many times.

I'm also wondering if there are 2 American factions.

One that was happy with the way things were: the piggyback sniffer, Sholmo's company does the work, etc. Because I just don't believe the American government would want to upset that apple cart.  Perhaps they off'd Meshal in the hopes that Sholmo would get Stage Three.

A second faction, to which the Secretary of State may belong, and with which Monica Chatwin may be affiliated.

 

But why would the Israeli extremist agree to it?

 

For the same reasons everyone agrees to do things contrary to their interests in this show: either he's a double agent or Monica has some sort of leverage on him.  Or he's just an opportunist and is doing it for money.  All that was required was for him to post something on the internet. For all we know, this group is a complete fabrication and was always a tool of Monica's pro-Palestinian plot.

I just wish they'd flesh it out a little. Not much, perhaps just a few lines from Ser Hugh in the finale. Otherwise it just seems a little convenient.

 

Atika did turn out to be in on the conspiracy, as I always suspected, but at least she's not a monster and saved Rachel and the baby. I suspect her main duty in the larger scheme was to serve as honey trap and inside observer.

I think there's still a lot of blood on her hands. Not just Ephra's, but the scores of people killed in the "car" bomb.

 

 

Yeah, if I'm on that particular border operating heavy machinery and there's even the slightest glitch in the ignition? I'm not hanging around, let alone sit there pressing and re-pressing that switch. Hurr, let's see what happens if I press it really hard this time! Durr!

You'd think none of these people ever watched Casino.

 

 

I have a basic understanding of what's going on here, but I still don't understand why it had to happen this way, apart from that's the way it's written, if you know what I mean. But maybe that's the way to deal with it. But this whole thing planned as a long-term operation still seems utterly absurd to me, especially if the end result is to turn Israel's allies against it.

It does seem overly complex and implausible, but I'm hoping the finale adds some clarity.

 

I don't understand why the Steins are so ga ga over Atika.

 

I guess because of what she and Nessa went through? Atika was Nessa's lifeline during the kidnapping, and maybe Ephra feels beholden to her for that? I don't like Atika—she's way too prickly for me—but I admire that the show never tries to soften her edges.

Although according to Nessa, she fell head over heels for Atika the moment Nessa set eyes on her.

[Llywela]

I didn't get that from that scene at all. They didn't have social body language to my eye; it looked professional.

We saw them together for about two seconds as the guy stood up and left the table - the context of the 'date' (whether romantic or professional isn't important) was set up when Angelica texted the time and place to Hugh and then told him why, in very pointed terms. We don't know whether the guy is a new romance or a business acquaintance, because either way it isn't the point. We are seeing Angelica through Hugh's eyes and he doesn't know. He only knows that she told him about the appointment because she wanted him to see her with another man. That's the point.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Llywela

[alexvillage]

I have been re-watching the episodes and paying more attention to things, but somethings are still confusing to me. So, chronologically:

 

Ephra uses the Foundations money to free an Israeli soldier and sends Nessa to the West Bank for a photo op kind of thing, but Nessa actually reads spreadsheets and finds out that some money has been diverted to Gaza, so she goes to Gaza and gets kidnapped. She gets raped and has a child by a Fatah militant.

Question: It does not look like Atika knew about that, she was expecting Ephra. when did she get involved with Fatah?

 

Monica is somehow involved with Fatah, and manipulates Ephra into accepting to step down from the Foundation and give it to Nessa, lay the cables and something else (which I believe is putting the sniffer in that hole everybody goes in). 

Question: is that when they start planning the whole thing, the kidnapping, attempted murder of Nessa and Ephra?

 

It seems that Israelis are accepted in the university even when Arabs have better grades. It should have been easy to deny wrongdoing, even if Nessa is so honorable, but then the professor is murdered.

What does all this have to do with everything, other than Ephra "paying a debt" to the Israelis for saving Nessa? Was it necessary to kill the professor?

 

Who is the Israeli guy who seems to coordinate all this from Holland? He and Monica are together on it, but Monica is also working with Fatah.

Question: Am I right that Fatah kidnapped Kasim and planned the assassination of Nessa and Ephra, together with Atika? So Fatah and the israeli guy watching TV are together and Monica is also a player? 

 

The Americans have a hand on Meshal's "suicide", what else are they doing there? 

 

Apologies if I still get it all wrong. Maybe a second watch of the next two episodes will help me understand some more before the finale.

[Llywela]

 

Question: It does not look like Atika knew about that, she was expecting Ephra. when did she get involved with Fatah?

I think she always was. She was expecting Ephra to be with Nessa, so we can assume from that that the original plan involved Ephra as well, but was flexible enough to be adapted to the different scheme that eventually saw Nessa captured in Gaza.

 

Question: is that when they start planning the whole thing, the kidnapping, attempted murder of Nessa and Ephra?

I think they'd probably been waiting for the right opportunity for a long time. This one came along and they decided the time was right to act - but I imagine the plan was always loose and opportunistic, flexing to adapt to whatever circumstances transpired. It would have to be.

What does all this have to do with everything, other than Ephra "paying a debt" to the Israelis for saving Nessa? Was it necessary to kill the professor?

The professor was killed because while investigating the entrance exam corruption, he stumbled into a listening post that could have blown the whistle on the wiretap. Although why the listening post was at the college was not explained. It was probably seen as a good cover.

Question: Am I right that Fatah kidnapped Kasim and planned the assassination of Nessa and Ephra, together with Atika? So Fatah and the israeli guy watching TV are together and Monica is also a player?

 

The Americans have a hand on Meshal's "suicide", what else are they doing there?

Keep watching, you haven't seen the final endgame yet. However, Monica is definitely a player and the guy in the Netherlands is not necessarily Israeli, he just follows orders to claim certain actions on the part of an Israeli group. There are wheels within wheels here.

[Cardie]

What's annoying me is that historically we've seen Israeli extremists kill other Israelis (Yitzhak Rabin!) and innocent Palestinians; their military operations in Gaza and Occupation of the West Bank have garnered much criticism, especially in Europe. The Mossad is known to roam the world assassinating those who have wronged Israel. What is supposed to be qualitatively different about them blowing up Nessa and killing Ephra?  That the Steins are Europeans, although Israeli citizens, too, and their father a major player within Israel? In other words, it would seem that whatever this plot is supposed to accomplish, other than personal revenge by Fatah terrorist-in-exile against the Steins, could have been accomplished by unfaked Israeli actions.

[mrsdalgliesh]

Cardie, have we heard the word Mossad uttered once during this series?  It just occurred to me, reading your post, that I don't think we have.  We've seen ambassadors and spies and militants, but...am I wrong?  Have we seen a character who is Mossad?   

 

Regardless, I'm assuming that the underlying reason for all the fakery/secrecy is that this is all being driven by Americans; it is they (us!) who are taking advantage of poor decisions by Ephra and the plot against the Steins by Al-Zahid (hope I'm naming that character correctly) to cause some outcome and/or simply have a pipeline of information.  The Israelis are doing little themselves in this situation other than reacting.

 

At least that's what I'm getting out of it.  But I'm pretty confused. :-)  Completely immersed, but confused.

Edited September 14, 2014 by mrsdalgliesh

[Cardie]

I would guess that Hugh's Israeli contact is former Mossad but you're right that the name has never been uttered. The Americans may indeed be pulling strings but there's nothing I can imagine them gaining from the whole affair. The NSA is intercepting conversations right and left; they would find the sniffer rather quaint. And what good does it do the US to get involved in discrediting the Israelis, whom we've always backed right or wrong? Perhaps we'll learn of some super oil deal from the Saudis contingent on the US finding reason to put some distance between itself and Israel.

[Llywela]

What is supposed to be qualitatively different about them blowing up Nessa and killing Ephra?

Profile. It is a sad truth that a high profile victim will always garner far more attention than the dozens of corpses that surround them. The Steins are very high profile. Killing them sends a very clear message.

[alexvillage]

Mossad was speculated to be the responsible for one of the plots, I don't remember which one because it was ruled out (maybe I should try to remember because this show can still surprise?)

 

I, too, think this is more personal than a big Government/terrorist group conspiracy. The American's role is still confusing, though. Why would they kill Meshal? Is the State Secretary this powerful to convince the President that he deserved to be murdered? 

By the way, nitpicking on the lady on the podium, talking to journalists on behalf of the Secretary of State, from the White House, when the State Department has its own podium (or they would have changed the "White House" sign to a "Department of State" sign)

Edited September 14, 2014 by alexvillage

[Constantinople]

I believe at some point one of the characters either asked about Mossad and Shin Bet's involvement in someone's death/kidnapping/whatever, or denied the involvement of Mossad and Shin Bet.

Sorry, I know that's not terribly specific.

I too don't understand what the Americans have to gain in this either. Perhaps

1. it's a rogue operation.

2. Chatwin is duping them, perhaps in conjunction with the U.S Sec'y of State or officials in the State Department (in which case it may be a variation of #1), or

3. The Americans are just trying to get back to the status quo: Israeli sniffer, American piggy-back sniffer, safe pair of hands on Phrase Three of the cabling contract.

 

The professor was killed because while investigating the entrance exam corruption, he stumbled into a listening post that could have blown the whistle on the wiretap.

 
It's possible the Palestinians killed the professor to make the Israelis look bad, on the assumption that people will blame the target of the whistle blower.  It's also possible the Palestinians didn't want any additional attention drawn to the work of Nessa Stein's company/foundation, given what they are trying to do.