Small Talk: Dinner at Red Lobster

[Browncoat]

Mine with the bad carburetor was a Chevy!  The VW could be started with a screwdriver to short out over the solenoid in the starter.

[Yeah No]

36 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I used that too on the '75 Chevy Impala station wagon. But eventually I just had to start it with the hood popped and a pencil in the carburerator flap.

I remember doing that too at one point toward the end!  Young people today have no clue what we used to have to do back then, LOL.  Today not even the mechanics completely understand cars anymore.  Everything is diagnosed by computer.  You'd need an advanced degree in engineering to understand them, and even then.....

[Yeah No]

26 minutes ago, Tom Holmberg said:

Ah, the Seventies, the golden age of the American automotive industry.

When my husband managed the auto. repair shop back in the '80s he used to buy used classic '70s cars from customers that didn't want to pay to have them fixed and repair them, keep them for a while and then sell them.  We had every cool muscle car including a GTO, Chevy SS, Firebird, etc.  We had a Coronet, which was very similar to the '70s cop cars and a Chevy Impala station wagon, etc., etc.  The GTO and the Coronet were my absolute favorites. 

My mother loved the GTO back in the '60s and '70s.  She actually owned a 1966 Jaguar 38S.  At the time she was working part time for a local lawyer, who couldn't pay her for about a year until he settled a big case, so he made up for it by giving her the Jaguar.  She never thought he would take her comments about her "dream car" that seriously.  Anyway, we had so much fun in that car when I was a kid although it was always in the shop.  We had a very colorful British car repair man up in Scarsdale named "Mr. Wheatley" that looked and acted just like Dr. Bombay from "Bewitched", LOL.  We knew such funny characters back then!   All the muscle car guys were always challenging her to a road race.  They were no match for the Jag, it was way ahead of its time in terms of handling and speed.  I think it had rack and pinion steering.  After about 3 years we sadly traded it in for a Mercury Cougar, which was a letdown of course.  But at least it didn't cost a fortune to keep on the road.  After that we had a couple of Buick Skylarks, a 1970 and a 1972.  This was when people commonly traded in cars every 2 years.  We loved the Skylarks, but the Jag. would always be my first car love.

[Tom Holmberg]

57 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

When my husband managed the auto. repair shop back in the '80s he used to buy used classic '70s cars from customers that didn't want to pay to have them fixed and repair them, keep them for a while and then sell them. 

I think to have enjoyed a lot of American cars from the 1970s, you had to own a repair shop.

[shapeshifter]

39 minutes ago, Tom Holmberg said:

I think to have enjoyed a lot of American cars from the 1970s, you had to own a repair shop.

When I got married in '83 I thought I was marrying a mechanic. Turned out I was marrying someone who liked to take things apart.

[TheLastKidPicked]

1 hour ago, Tom Holmberg said:

I think to have enjoyed a lot of American cars from the 1970s, you had to own a repair shop.

 

28 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

When I got married in '83 I thought I was marrying a mechanic. Turned out I was marrying someone who liked to take things apart.

Cars are so good now that it's easy to forget how bad they used to be.

 

One thing I appreciate about this show is they get the details right on the cars.

A football coach in the 80's would drive an F250 just like George drives.  

A housewife would drive a station wagon just like Mary does.

A widow with a small pension or life insurance payout would drive a Cadillac just like MeeMaw does.

They really do sweat the details, and it shows.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by TheLastKidPicked

[Yeah No]

13 hours ago, Tom Holmberg said:

I think to have enjoyed a lot of American cars from the 1970s, you had to own a repair shop.

I wish my husband owned the shop, it was a gold mine!  At least as manager he had access to the lifts, parts, tools and if he couldn't fix anything himself he'd have one of the mechanics do it for a little side money. 

13 hours ago, TheLastKidPicked said:

One thing I appreciate about this show is they get the details right on the cars.

A football coach in the 80's would drive an F250 just like George drives.  

A housewife would drive a station wagon just like Mary does.

A widow with a small pension or life insurance payout would drive a Cadillac just like MeeMaw does.

They really do sweat the details, and it shows.

You are so right, I've noticed that myself.  They also take into account the fact that this takes place in Texas.  

Speaking of appreciating cars in TV shows, thanks to a couple of retro. channels I get now I'm having fun watching old Adam 12 episodes.  That was my favorite show for several years when I was a kid and I haven't seen it in forever until now.  My husband and I have a game going where we try to beat each other to naming the make, model and year of all the cars that appear on the show.  I was such a car fanatic as a kid I pretty much knew all the makes and models of every American and many foreign cars as well.  I used to buy big books and catalogs of cars and memorized them all.  Ah, to be young again and have that kind of enthusiasm!  It's amazing that that knowledge has never left me.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Yeah No

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Yeah No said:

  I was such a car fanatic as a kid I pretty much knew all the makes and models of every American and many foreign cars as well.  I used to buy big books and catalogs of cars and memorized them all.  Ah, to be young again and have that kind of enthusiasm!  It's amazing that that knowledge has never left me.

Before personal computers and cellphones became ubiquitous, there was a lot more memorizing of all sorts of things, including phone numbers, of course, but also facts about current culture, especially music and cars, the knowledge of which carried some cachet.

The summer of 1968(?) my best friend and I, soon to be high school sophomores, walked the mile to and from each other’s houses at least once a day, including a stretch of Riverwoods Road in the Chicago suburbs, where we practiced naming the make and model of every passing car.

I don’t know how we garnered that information in the first place. Cultural osmosis of some sort, I guess.

Edited May 4, 2023 by shapeshifter

[Yeah No]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Before personal computers and cellphones became ubiquitous, there was a lot more memorizing of all sorts of things, including phone numbers, of course, but also facts about current culture, especially music and cars, the knowledge of which carried some cachet.

The summer of 1968(?) my best friend and I, soon to be high school sophomores, walked the mile to and from each other’s houses at least once a day, including a stretch of Riverwoods Road in the Chicago suburbs, where we practiced naming the make and model of every passing car.

I don’t know how we garnered that information in the first place. Cultural osmosis of some sort, I guess.

It's amazing how much we learned without the internet to tell us, isn't it?  My parents' house was known as the "<Their Last Name> Reading Room" because their apartment was full of bookcases and the coffee table was full of current magazines.  It was literally like a reference library on many different subjects.  Plus, we actually talked to each other!  I learned a lot from listening to my parents. 

I remember a car game I came up with myself but later learned that kids did all the time, and that was keeping track of license plates and where they were from on a road trip.  When we drove cross country in 1973 I kept track of every plate I saw from a unique state or country.  I remember seeing all 50 states and most of Canada on that trip as I recall.  Today I guess many kids would have their heads buried in a video game on their cell phones or something.  

[Tom Holmberg]

9 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

The summer of 1968(?) my best friend and I, soon to be high school sophomores, walked the mile to and from each other’s houses at least once a day, including a stretch of Riverwoods Road in the Chicago suburbs, where we practiced naming the make and model of every passing car.

 

Back then cars tended to have distinctive looks or features, making them easier to identify.

[Tom Holmberg]

11 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

 

The summer of 1968(?) my best friend and I, soon to be high school sophomores, walked the mile to and from each other’s houses at least once a day, including a stretch of Riverwoods Road in the Chicago suburbs, where we practiced naming the make and model of every passing car.

 

https://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/car_spotters_guide_usa_1968

[Yeah No]

10 hours ago, Tom Holmberg said:

Back then cars tended to have distinctive looks or features, making them easier to identify.

That's so true.  Now cars are designed by computers to be aerodynamic so they all tend to start resembling each other.  Plus I suspect some car companies copy each other's designs too.

But there were also many similar trim lines within a company that only differed in terms of the most surface of details, like the shape of the grille or the lights.  Like the way my Mercury Zephyr was basically a Ford Fairmont with a slightly different grille and tail lights.

BTW, my first ambition in life was to be a car designer, LOL.  I drew a lot of designs as a kid, some of which were quite prophetic and resembled the compact Japanese cars that later came on the scene.

BTW, thanks for that link, that's fantastic!

[Tom Holmberg]

14 hours ago, Yeah No said:

BTW, my first ambition in life was to be a car designer, LOL.  I drew a lot of designs as a kid, some of which were quite prophetic and resembled the compact Japanese cars that later came on the scene.

BTW, thanks for that link, that's fantastic!

Are you old enough to remember the Fisher Body Craftsman's Guild annual car design contests?

https://www.motorcities.org/story-of-the-week/2021/remembering-the-fisher-body-craftsman-s-guild

 

[shapeshifter]

13 hours ago, Tom Holmberg said:

Are you old enough to remember the Fisher Body Craftsman's Guild annual car design contests?

https://www.motorcities.org/story-of-the-week/2021/remembering-the-fisher-body-craftsman-s-guild

“The competition invited boys and teenagers ages 11 to 20…”

[Yeah No]

19 hours ago, Tom Holmberg said:

Are you old enough to remember the Fisher Body Craftsman's Guild annual car design contests?

https://www.motorcities.org/story-of-the-week/2021/remembering-the-fisher-body-craftsman-s-guild

 

I'm old enough but no, I knew nothing about it.

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

“The competition invited boys and teenagers ages 11 to 20…”

And above is one reason I probably didn't....

I was the only girl participating at the slot car race track in the 1960s.  I was a tomboy and my mother let me dress like a boy in Wrangler jeans and Keds so as not to look too obvious as a girl.  My mom was the coolest!

BTW, and yes, if I didn't dress like a boy I got snide looks from the other participants and their parents and in a couple of cases discouraged from participating.  We forget how the world was back then....

I remember my mom going all Meemaw on them like when she said to the coach, "Did you tell my granddaughter she can't play baseball?"  My mom was not one to sit back and let me be pushed out!

Edited May 6, 2023 by Yeah No

[EtheltoTillie]

Late to the party, but I used to know all the 50s and 60s cars too.  Looking at that list, I remembered how out of sync all the American Motors cars were.  They were considered such a D list brand.  How did they survive at all?  The Pacer was one ugly car! 

[Tom Holmberg]

On 5/6/2023 at 10:45 AM, Yeah No said:

I'm old enough but no, I knew nothing about it.

I was the only girl participating at the slot car race track in the 1960s.  I was a tomboy and my mother let me dress like a boy in Wrangler jeans and Keds so as not to look too obvious as a girl.  My mom was the coolest!

BTW, and yes, if I didn't dress like a boy I got snide looks from the other participants and their parents and in a couple of cases discouraged from participating.  We forget how the world was back then....

 

Despite the way they promoted it (I think they advertised in "Boy's Life",car  model magazines and "Hot Rod"), some girls did enter and were finalists (I would suspect that, if a girl entered, she'd be much more serious than the average boy entering).  I never entered, it was too hard for my limited skills.

I also raced slot cars, but I don't remember any girls there.  I did also build and customize plastic model cars and recall seeing cars built by girls in hobby shop windows (a lot of shops put their customers best builds on display.

 

[Yeah No]

48 minutes ago, Tom Holmberg said:

Despite the way they promoted it (I think they advertised in "Boy's Life",car  model magazines and "Hot Rod"), some girls did enter and were finalists (I would suspect that, if a girl entered, she'd be much more serious than the average boy entering).  I never entered, it was too hard for my limited skills.

Really?  Do you have anything to substantiate that?  Because according to this article on the subject of the competition written in 1997,  "Boys and Their Toys: The Fisher Body Craftsman's Guild, 1930-1968, and the Making of a Male Technical Domain" , females were not allowed to be members of the Fisher Design Guild much less enter the contest.  It also discusses the difficulty for females trying to enter all technical fields as late as the date this article was written.  I also found a page with all the scholarship winners' names, including those that won only $1,000 and not one of them was female from the 1930s all the way through 1968.

Speaking of that, I took mechanical drawing as an elective at The Bronx HS of Science.  I was one of the only young women in the class.  Not only was I sexually harassed by the teacher (he was a known dirt bag and likely misogynist, but that was somehow tolerated in those days), but I also routinely got lower grades than I should have.  I knew it was happening and even complained to the teacher about it but it got me nowhere.  I was a very artistic kid and got into the HS of Music and Art and Art and Design so I was no slouch, plus I had experience creating my own house plans with professional equipment, thanks to my mom who bought it for me. 

I even put my suspicions to the test once.  One of my male classmates agreed to do a take home assignment on my behalf just to see how it would be graded.  His work always got As, but of course when I submitted his work under my name I got a B- on it!  I never admitted to doing that because I didn't want to get in trouble for submitting someone else's work but it proved to me that I was not being graded fairly.  Is it any wonder that my ambitions to become a car designer or architect were completely discouraged and dashed by this experience?

Also, recalling my experience at the slot car racetrack made me remember more about it.  I wasn't just discouraged from participating but I had completely repressed being thrown out of the place with my mother purely for being a girl.  I didn't want to remember that because it was very humiliating for me, but thanks to this thread and writing about it, it came back to me.  It took a lot of guts to go back there after that happened, and I did a few times but given how unwelcome I was made to feel for being a girl I soon soured on the experience and I elected to stop going.

BTW, I had my hair cut in a short "pixie" cut thanks to Twiggy, the famous model that made it all the rage at the time.  Plus I wore my Yankee cap.  So I was very believable as a boy.  But I had been so soured on the experience I stopped going anyway.

P.S.  I think when my mother refused to make me sit on the sidelines like they told me I had to at the slot car racetrack that's when they threw us out.  I was OK to be there as long as I didn't participate but my mother wouldn't have it, God bless her!

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I even put my suspicions to the test once.  One of my male classmates agreed to do a take home assignment on my behalf just to see how it would be graded.  His work always got As, but of course when I submitted his work under my name I got a B- on it!  I never admitted to doing that because I didn't want to get in trouble for submitting someone else's work but it proved to me that I was not being graded fairly.

Wow! 
One of my credos is that if I am thinking of something innovative and acting on it in some way, at that same moment, so are others who absorbed similar thoughts and experiences at that moment. 
So now I really want to find out if other teens did a similar "test" of the limits of STEM mysogyny in the mid-20th century. 
I understand, @Yeah No why you were not public about your test and its results then, and certainly these days trolls would attack you even worse if you put it on a public blog under your real name.
But maybe comment about this whenever it fits; perhaps a NY Times article or something similar.

 

************

BTW, when I was at the top of my high school class in 1971 and enrolling at UIUC, I was told no, I could not study Biochemistry, because the College of Arts & Sciences was too full; I would instead major in Home Economics in the College of Agriculture. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by shapeshifter

[Tom Holmberg]

3 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Really?  Do you have anything to substantiate that?  Because according to this article on the subject of the competition written in 1997,  "Boys and Their Toys: The Fisher Body Craftsman's Guild, 1930-1968, and the Making of a Male Technical Domain" , females were not allowed to be members of the Fisher Design Guild much less enter the contest.  It also discusses the difficulty for females trying to enter all technical fields as late as the date this article was written.  I also found a page with all the scholarship winners' names, including those that won only $1,000 and not one of them was female from the 1930s all the way through 1968.

 

I read a book about the FBCG about 10 years ago.  I thought they mentioned girls participating, but checking now it was the European versions of the Guild that allowed girls. (Those damned Europeans, always ahead of us backward Americans.)

Its odd that girls weren't allowed to use the slot car tracks.  You had to pay to use them and you'd think they'd be happy with anyone's money. It was a business.

[Yeah No]

21 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Wow! 
One of my credos is that if I am thinking of something innovative and acting on it in some way, at that same moment, so are others who absorbed similar thoughts and experiences at that moment. 
So now I really want to find out if other teens did a similar "test" of the limits of STEM mysogyny in the mid-20th century. 
I understand, @Yeah No why you were not public about your test and its results then, and certainly these days trolls would attack you even worse if you put it on a public blog under your real name.
But maybe comment about this whenever it fits; perhaps a NY Times article or something similar.

Hah, you know I would be the one to make a comment like that on a NY Times article, LOL.

A modern day look at this might wonder why I didn't complain to the school about the harassment and at least a suspicion of unfair grading.  I was told others had complained about this guy before me but were received with deaf ears.  I was told not to take his class but he was the only one teaching that subject so there was no way to take it without him.  It's one of the reasons why I was one of only 2 girls in the class.  Part of my problem was that I was attractive as a young woman so the harassers targeted me even more than some others.  Counterintuitively I felt that with men like this my appearance stood in the way of my good grades, it didn't help it at all.  People assume that good looking young women get by on their looks but it didn't work that way for me.  If I was seen as a "sex object" I wasn't taken seriously and my talents were dismissed.  This didn't just happen in this guy's class but in general with male teachers who looked at me "that way".

21 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

BTW, when I was at the top of my high school class in 1971 and enrolling at UIUC, I was told no, I could not study Biochemistry, because the College of Arts & Sciences was too full; I would instead major in Home Economics in the College of Agriculture. 

Awww, that sucks.....My mom went to grad. school at City College for creative writing, which was a program very accommodating to women because it was an "artsy fartsy" subject and not threatening to men looking for career degrees.  She was very aware that she might not have had that reception if she wanted to study something scientific.  One of my good male friends tells me his mother was turned down to attend grad. school in the sciences so she ended up pursuing Chinese history instead.

20 hours ago, Tom Holmberg said:

Its odd that girls weren't allowed to use the slot car tracks.  You had to pay to use them and you'd think they'd be happy with anyone's money. It was a business.

One would think, but this is the same world that regularly dismissed our claims of sexual harassment (including mine) and discouraged us from pursuing male dominated college programs and careers.  And banks closed at 3:00 p.m.....And also the same world where people openly smoked at their desks in offices, and we didn't even have cubicles to separate us!  Even I can't believe I ever lived in a world where that happened but I know I did!

[shapeshifter]

36 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Hah, you know I would be the one to make a comment like that on a NY Times article, LOL.

Well, I know now. 😎🤣

 

[TheLastKidPicked]

@Yeah No I'm sorry to hear of your experience.  I hope these things get a little bit better for each generation coming up.

 

Do any of you remember Joe Clark?  The principal who took over East Side High School?  He was controversial, and there were reasons not to like him.

 

 

There was one change he made that was completely right.  

When he took over, girls took baking and cooking while boys took auto shop.

A group of girls approached him and said,  "We are raising our brothers and sisters.  We cook every meal.  We don't NEED baking and cooking classes.  We NEED auto shop because that's where the money is."

Joe enrolled them in auto mechanics, and walked down there with a baseball bat.  A baseball bat.  And Joe said,  "These girls are taking auto shop.  If you don't like it, you can take it up with me."

 

 

[Tom Holmberg]

22 hours ago, Yeah No said:

One would think, but this is the same world that regularly dismissed our claims of sexual harassment (including mine) and discouraged us from pursuing male dominated college programs and careers.  And banks closed at 3:00 p.m.....And also the same world where people openly smoked at their desks in offices, and we didn't even have cubicles to separate us!  Even I can't believe I ever lived in a world where that happened but I know I did!

If I remember correctly, I think our slot car place was run by a woman.

[Yeah No]

On 5/10/2023 at 9:19 AM, Tom Holmberg said:

If I remember correctly, I think our slot car place was run by a woman.

This was a storefront track on Central Avenue in Scarsdale, NY in the mid 1960s, so it wasn't exactly a bastion of conservative social values like Texas.   The owner in my case was a man.  The mothers of the participants were as offended by my participation as any of the men were.   I remember the looks of disapproval on their faces and their negative comments when they realized I was a girl.  They acted like it was unheard of for a girl to race there so I could only imagine that no other girl had ever attempted it.  It was a traumatic experience for me.

I had an extensive toy car collection as a kid, which included Matchbox, Hot Wheels, Tonka and Corgi models.  I still have a lot of them.  I remember feeling like I was doing something "wrong" by playing with them, that I wasn't supposed to be doing that because I was a girl.  All of the ads for these toys were aimed at boys and none of the girls in my neighborhood played with them except for one, who became pretty much my only real friend.  God bless my mother for telling me it was wrong to exclude girls from those toys and letting me have them.  I can't imagine how I would have felt if she didn't support me.

ETA:  This just reminded me of that episode of YS where Sheldon outs the girl running against him for class president as being originally from Scarsdale, NY.  Judging from the reaction of the students in the audience, he might as well have called her a "Godless sinner" or something, LOL.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Yeah No

[Tom Holmberg]

On 5/11/2023 at 7:32 AM, Yeah No said:

This was a storefront track on Central Avenue in Scarsdale, NY in the mid 1960s, so it wasn't exactly a bastion of conservative social values like Texas.   The owner in my case was a man.  The mothers of the participants were as offended by my participation as any of the men were.   I remember the looks of disapproval on their faces and their negative comments when they realized I was a girl.  They acted like it was unheard of for a girl to race there so I could only imagine that no other girl had ever attempted it.  It was a traumatic experience for me.

 

I recall seeing a model car by a girl with a really nice candy apple red paint job, which wasn't easy to do really well. None of us was upset about, except to wonder why we didn't know any girls into model cars. 😃

Edited May 13, 2023 by Tom Holmberg

[EtheltoTillie]

Wow @shapeshifter I am shocked by that particular story, although little shocks me. I graduated high school only a year after you did, and we were on the cusp of change in that area, so I can’t see that someone would be forbidden to enroll in an undergraduate program at that moment. I attended a women’s college, though, so who knows. Also many of the women in my class attended @Yeah No ‘s science high school. 

Edited May 13, 2023 by EtheltoTillie

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Wow @shapeshifter I am shocked by that particular story, although little shocks me. I graduated high school only a year after you did, and we were on the cusp of change in that area, so I can’t see that someone would be forbidden to enroll in an undergraduate program at that moment. I attended a women’s college, though, so who knows. Also many of the women in my class attended @Yeah No ‘s science high school. 

A year made a difference back then. 

[Yeah No]

On 5/13/2023 at 9:31 AM, EtheltoTillie said:

Wow @shapeshifter I am shocked by that particular story, although little shocks me. I graduated high school only a year after you did, and we were on the cusp of change in that area, so I can’t see that someone would be forbidden to enroll in an undergraduate program at that moment. I attended a women’s college, though, so who knows. Also many of the women in my class attended @Yeah No ‘s science high school. 

Even though I'm a few years younger than the two of you, it's amazing how few women in my HS class actually went into traditionally male fields in the sciences and law.  Most became SAHMs, teachers, counselors, nurses, admins. in Education or non-profit, or went into other traditionally acceptable careers for women.  One went into dog breeding and showing.  I know of one Dermatologist that hawks skincare products on QVC and a good friend that became a lawyer but ended up writing policy for health plans with the gov't.  Thanks to Facebook and an unusually tight-knit class I actually have a sense for what everyone did.  Of course this is the same class that also produced Neil DeGrasse Tyson and George Yancopoulos of Regeneron fame. 

On 5/13/2023 at 10:55 AM, shapeshifter said:

A year made a difference back then. 

You could walk across the street and feel like you were in a completely different decade back then.  Certain institutions and people within those institutions lagged behind in their attitudes towards women and nothing prevented them from acting on those attitudes then either. 

[possibilities]

In my high school in the 1970s, girls were NOT ALLOWED to take shop, and were forced to take cooking/sewing. I actually fought for the right to take wood shop and metal shop instead of cooking/sewing. By then, it wasn't legal to require the gender tracking like that, but I still had to fight for it. If you didn't fight, you were automatically tracked. And they didn't tell us that fighting was an option. I only knew because my mother was aware of it and told me she would fight for me if I wanted.

The metal shop teacher was unfriendly to my presence, and the all male classmates were horrible to me. But the next semester, the wood shop was a totally different environment, and another girl I knew joined me there, and everyone behaved decently.

As far as I know, I was the first, and my friend and I might have also been the last, to ever challenge this. I don't know what they do now, of course. But back then, it was a huge anomaly and highly resisted. 

The girls made muffins and aprons. I am not even kidding. What a useful life skill, amirite? Muffins! Something you could learn from a cookbook. Add these ingredients to a bowl. Mix. Pour into a muffin pan. Bake. 

I learned how to use a lathe, a drill press, a plastic mold (I still have the screwdriver I made with that machine-- metal bit and plastic handle-- I use it all the time!), other power tools. I wish my school had had advanced classes in those topics, but they only had the intro for some reason.

 

[Browncoat]

When I was in 8th grade in 1977, everyone was required to have at least one six-week grading period in wood shop, home ec (sewing and cooking -- we made pillows for sewing, and I really can't remember what we cooked), typing, and shorthand, plus two in PE.  But clubs and sports were still divided by gender until some of us made a stink about it and variously joined "boys" clubs and sports teams -- notably baseball and golf.  We had no equivalent of those for girls.

[Tom Holmberg]

15 hours ago, Browncoat said:

When I was in 8th grade in 1977, everyone was required to have at least one six-week grading period in wood shop, home ec (sewing and cooking -- we made pillows for sewing, and I really can't remember what we cooked), typing, and shorthand, plus two in PE.  But clubs and sports were still divided by gender until some of us made a stink about it and variously joined "boys" clubs and sports teams -- notably baseball and golf.  We had no equivalent of those for girls.

I recall that in junior high the boys had a spell of Home Ec and the girls got shop, but I have no memory of what we did in Home Ec other than being in that room.  I suppose we cooked something.

[Yeah No]

20 hours ago, possibilities said:

In my high school in the 1970s, girls were NOT ALLOWED to take shop, and were forced to take cooking/sewing. I actually fought for the right to take wood shop and metal shop instead of cooking/sewing. By then, it wasn't legal to require the gender tracking like that, but I still had to fight for it. If you didn't fight, you were automatically tracked. And they didn't tell us that fighting was an option. I only knew because my mother was aware of it and told me she would fight for me if I wanted.

The metal shop teacher was unfriendly to my presence, and the all male classmates were horrible to me. But the next semester, the wood shop was a totally different environment, and another girl I knew joined me there, and everyone behaved decently.

As far as I know, I was the first, and my friend and I might have also been the last, to ever challenge this. I don't know what they do now, of course. But back then, it was a huge anomaly and highly resisted. 

The girls made muffins and aprons. I am not even kidding. What a useful life skill, amirite? Muffins! Something you could learn from a cookbook. Add these ingredients to a bowl. Mix. Pour into a muffin pan. Bake. 

I learned how to use a lathe, a drill press, a plastic mold (I still have the screwdriver I made with that machine-- metal bit and plastic handle-- I use it all the time!), other power tools. I wish my school had had advanced classes in those topics, but they only had the intro for some reason.

 

When I got to Jr. High in NYC in 1970 girls were not allowed to take shop class and instead were required to take "Home Ec." which included cooking and sewing instruction.  Everything was made with either Crisco or Imperial Margerine.  I came from a home that strictly used either butter or olive oil so I thought that stuff was gross, LOL.  If not for that I would have enjoyed the cooking class, but sewing was not for me at all.  I think by later in my time at that school girls were starting to be allowed to take shop class but I had already fulfilled my requirement so I never took it.  My HS did not have "Home Ec" classes so everyone took shop.  I remember making speakers and a step stool among other things.  Thanks to being at an "all nerd" high school I did better in shop than many of the boys, LOL.  I had a great teacher in that class who was beloved by all.  He never made the girls feel unwelcome or inferior.

As far as being a part of protests go, as soon as I entered Jr. High many of us girls were upset about the dress code prohibiting us from wearing pants to school.  We pushed to have it changed, but when the administration was unwilling to bend for us we took matters into our own hands and staged a protest one day where we all came to school in pants.  I'll never forget it - So many girls participated that the school had no choice but to give into us.  I don't think I ever wore a skirt to school again after that.  By the time I got to HS there were no prohibitions against wearing pants for girls but I don't know what the school's history was on that before I got there.

Also, I was quite athletic as a kid but there were no team sports for girls back then as this was before Title 9.  I was so upset about this that I singlehandedly pushed to create a girl's volleyball team at my Jr. High.  The school was unwilling to recognize it as a legitimate team so I had to call it a girls "Volleyball Club".  We were allowed to meet outside of classes in the gym to play on certain designated dates and times.  Initially there was a lot of interest in it and it was a lot of fun, but once again I felt like it was not enough and that we were barely being tolerated by the school.  In fact, we often found our space being used by boys for other purposes and were made to feel like we were doing something wrong if we used school equipment in spite of having been given permission to do so, so we would bring our own and even then we got side eyed for everything we did.  It all felt very begrudging if you ask me.  Because of all the hassles we encountered interest in the club waned after a while.  

Edited May 16, 2023 by Yeah No

[shapeshifter]

24 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

My HS did not have "Home Ec" classes so everyone took shop.  I remember making speakers and a step stool among other things.  Thanks to being at an "all nerd" high school I did better in shop than many of the boys, LOL.  I had a great teacher in that class who was beloved by all.  He never made the girls feel unwelcome or inferior.

Like my "junior high" PE (physical education) teacher. ♥️

 

26 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

As far as being a part of protests go, as soon as I entered Jr. High many of us girls were upset about the dress code prohibiting us from wearing pants to school.  We pushed to have it changed, but when the administration was unwilling to bend for us we took matters into our own hands and staged a protest one day where we all came to school in pants.  I'll never forget it - So many girls participated that the school had no choice but to give into us.  I don't think I ever wore a skirt to school again after that.  By the time I got to HS there were no prohibitions against wearing pants for girls but I don't know what the school's history was on that before I got there.

It would've been about 1967 when a high school girl was disciplined (suspended for a day??) for wearing culottes (pants skirt). She was prettier than I, but from a less academically inclined family in a somewhat poorer neighborhood. The next day I (1st in my class and from a more upper middle class neighborhood) wore culottes too and nobody said a word.
IRC, within a week, the administration had surrendered.

[MaryMitch]

41 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Like my "junior high" PE (physical education) teacher. ♥️

 

It would've been about 1967 when a high school girl was disciplined (suspended for a day??) for wearing culottes (pants skirt). She was prettier than I, but from a less academically inclined family in a somewhat poorer neighborhood. The next day I (1st in my class and from a more upper middle class neighborhood) wore culottes too and nobody said a word.
IRC, within a week, the administration had surrendered.

Same here! We girls weren't allowed to wear pants. One cold winter day a bunch of us got together and decided to wear pants the next day, figuring they couldn't send us all home. A couple hours into the day they announced over the intercom since it was so cold, during the winter girls would be allowed to wear pants. And they never pushed back when we just kept wearing them.

[shapeshifter]

6 minutes ago, MaryMitch said:

Same here! We girls weren't allowed to wear pants. One cold winter day a bunch of us got together and decided to wear pants the next day, figuring they couldn't send us all home. A couple hours into the day they announced over the intercom since it was so cold, during the winter girls would be allowed to wear pants. And they never pushed back when we just kept wearing them.

I was and remain pretty self-absorbed most of the time, so I don't recall exactly what happened after my little foray into the Pants Protests of that era, but this👆 sounds about right.
Kudos to whomever crafted the announcement about it being too cold for skirts. Public schools are filled with teachers who are so much better at conflict resolution than (seemingly) those whose jobs consist of finding ways to resolve conflicts.
I might recall wearing snow pants to school on rare occasions in elementary school, but taking them off along with the jacket when I got there?

I had perpetually scabby knees from "black top" recess areas in elementary school.

This Mother's Day I went to a park with my daughter and grandson. The soft, squishy play area surface was wonderful! But my little toddler grand-lambchop tripped and hit his head on a metal step. There's still room for improvement.

His Dad is determined that he will not play football or soccer or other sports that might result in head injury. We'll see...

[Tom Holmberg]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Like my "junior high" PE (physical education) teacher. ♥️

 

It would've been about 1967 when a high school girl was disciplined (suspended for a day??) for wearing culottes (pants skirt). She was prettier than I, but from a less academically inclined family in a somewhat poorer neighborhood. The next day I (1st in my class and from a more upper middle class neighborhood) wore culottes too and nobody said a word.
IRC, within a week, the administration had surrendered.

Yes, a girl in my school, around the same time, had to go home because she came in culottes.  Also they would make the girls kneel in the hallway and their skirts had to touch the floor (oh, the optics of that!).  Boys had to wear collared shirts. and their hair couldn't be longer than touching the collar.

[EtheltoTillie]

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

ghter and grandson. The soft, squishy play area surface was wonderful! But my little toddler grand-lambchop tripped and hit his head on a metal step. There's still room for improvement.

His Dad is determined that he will not play football or soccer or other sports that might result in head injury. We'll see...

My friend's son just got in to MIT because he plays football--he was recruited.  I mean really, the MIT football team? An oxymoron?  This feels very Young Sheldon related!  We had been concerned about his parents' allowing him to play and risk concussion, but I guess it paid off, but still . . .

 

As for home ec, I took cooking and sewing in junior high--still enjoy both.

I also took a shop class in high school--still enjoy tinkering with stuff.

Pants in NYC schools:  I was in 7th grade when the City rescinded the girls' pants ban forever (1968).  It was mid winter and it was cold.  From then on we wore frayed jeans like the hippie wannabes we were.

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by EtheltoTillie

[wonderwoman]

11 hours ago, MaryMitch said:

11 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Like my "junior high" PE (physical education) teacher. ♥️

 

It would've been about 1967 when a high school girl was disciplined (suspended for a day??) for wearing culottes (pants skirt). She was prettier than I, but from a less academically inclined family in a somewhat poorer neighborhood. The next day I (1st in my class and from a more upper middle class neighborhood) wore culottes too and nobody said a word.
IRC, within a week, the administration had surrendered.

Expand  

Same here! We girls weren't allowed to wear pants. One cold winter day a bunch of us got together and decided to wear pants the next day, figuring they couldn't send us all home. A couple hours into the day they announced over the intercom since it was so cold, during the winter girls would be allowed to wear pants. And they never pushed back when we just kept wearing them.

also in 1967: i had a part-time job as a cashier in a huge supermarket. in the winter, every time the electric doors at either end of front of the store opened, there was a blast of arctic air and our legs froze — well, those of us who had to wear skirts. 

we all hated it, but i was the only one who complained. of course, management didn’t give a shit. one day i had had enough. i realized that if we all wore pants on a saturday there was no way they could send all of us home — they would have had to close the store. 

the part-timers were all high school students (as was i) and easy to convince; took a little longer with the full-time women, but eventually they came on board.

it was my first collective action!

Edited May 17, 2023 by wonderwoman

[Yeah No]

7 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Pants in NYC schools:  I was in 7th grade when the City rescinded the girls' pants ban forever (1968).  It was mid winter and it was cold.  From then on we wore frayed jeans like the hippie wannabes we were.

The City did that in 1968?  Then I wonder how my Jr. HS didn't allow girls to wear pants when I got there in 1970.  I wasn't allowed to wear pants in elementary school either....

[EtheltoTillie]

28 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

The City did that in 1968?  Then I wonder how my Jr. HS didn't allow girls to wear pants when I got there in 1970.  I wasn't allowed to wear pants in elementary school either....

It might have been 1969, but yeah. Of course in elementary school we had to wear dresses or skirts and boys had to wear ties!  Seems odd for your JHS, I must say. 

[possibilities]

One thing I'm grateful for is that none of my schools had those kinds of dress codes. 

[EtheltoTillie]

6 hours ago, possibilities said:

One thing I'm grateful for is that none of my schools had those kinds of dress codes. 

Uh, you must be much younger than I am (68).   These codes were universal in the old days. 

 

[Yeah No]

6 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

It might have been 1969, but yeah. Of course in elementary school we had to wear dresses or skirts and boys had to wear ties!  Seems odd for your JHS, I must say. 

When I got there I remember older students claiming they had tried to get it changed but were unsuccessful.  My freshman class would have none of that.  We decided we'd just come to school in pants and refuse to stop.  We couldn't ALL get in trouble!  The day before we held a "rally" in the schoolyard to promote it and the response was overwhelming.   I was thrilled that so many girls actually went through with it. 

Looking back on it, I remember that the principal and the assistant principal were an ex-priest and ex-nun respectively, so that may have had something to do with their reticence to update the dress code.  They famously found romance and got married while I was attending the school, BTW, and started dressing more fashionably with the times, as I recall.  We students were amused and found it all very endearing.  It was very typical of what was happening in society in general at the time - going from "square" to "hip", LOL.

[Bort]

Yeah, I’m younger than a lot of you, we didn’t have the hoity toity dress codes like that, though my mother has told me much the same thing about her school dress code growing up. As a Gen Xer, I guess I’d like to thank you Baby Boomers for putting your skirted foot down and demanding pants. Because I hate skirts and would’ve been miserable being forced to wear them.

As it was, I did grow up in south Texas and we weren’t allowed to shorts to school. And it was an open, outdoor high school campus, usually somewhere around 100° out but no shorts! The irony is that they eventually tore down that campus, built a new high school that was indoor and air conditioned and also rescinded the no shorts policy. I suppose I could be upset at the unfairness of it all but I look back and realize that the constant sweating was how I stayed thin.

[possibilities]

2 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Uh, you must be much younger than I am (68).   These codes were universal in the old days. 

 

I'm 57. I think it's interesting that the dress codes were gone here, but not the gender-tracking by subject matter.

I guess more protests of skirts happened than of other gender-based role enforcement.

Edited May 17, 2023 by possibilities

[shapeshifter]

47 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I'm 57. I think it's interesting that the dress codes were gone here, but not the gender-tracking by subject matter.

I guess more protests of skirts happened than of other gender-based role enforcement.

"Little by little"

[Bethany]

Wow I always assumed we had to wear tunics back in my elementary school days because I went to a Catholic school.  I didn't realize it was more commonplace than that.

[proserpina65]

On 5/17/2023 at 11:58 AM, possibilities said:

I'm 57. I think it's interesting that the dress codes were gone here, but not the gender-tracking by subject matter.

I'm 58.  The only things I remember being not okay to wear to school were halter/tube tops.  Primarily because they were very easy to pull down, even by accident.  I went to public school from grade 1 to grade 12, and there were no dress codes or gender-tracking by subject matter than I can remember.

[possibilities]

I'm sure the gender tracking varied by location. I was in upstate NY (Hudson Valley area). My district was definitely not in a hurry to pursue any kind of equity, but elsewhere was no doubt better.