Law & Order: Criminal Intent - General Discussion

[wknt3]

14 hours ago, Lizzing said:

Maybe they cheaped out on the makeup artist.  The promo bumpers where VDO looks like he's wearing too much eyeline on the bottom lashes was filmed for ION, given that he looks a lot older than he did in S10.   The clips of the series in the promo look normal, it's him alone pontificating on "answering questions" that just looks weird.

That's certainly possible too. Or the lighting. I haven't actually seen it and don't really have the chops to properly analyze where they might have gone wrong. I was mostly speculating as someone who watches a lot of L&O reruns and used to do it with my ex who was in the field and couldn't hide her dismay with the production standards of ION's promos and would point out how they made the actors look weird by doing different things with they way they filmed and edited them.

[WendyCR72]

I JUST saw the ad. (Watching Blue Bloods and it popped up.) Agreed the make up looks off, but I think, for his age, VDO still looked pretty good. But the orangey lighting...WTF was that about? I think that made him look odd.

As for the "Lies/Truths" bit, I think VDO was trying to recite it as naturally as he could, but it is so damned corny. Not sure anyone could make that better.

And the weird-ass closeup of Jay O. Sanders made no sense. (More Harry Rowan there than Captain Hannah.)

With all that said, at least he participated in a promo! When the show was on the network a few years back, it stuck with stock S10 pics and just old clips.

[Maherjunkie]

My man not featured?

[WendyCR72]

4 hours ago, Maherjunkie said:

My man not featured?

No. Just VDO, almost dressed like Goren (suit/tie), with '70s orange lighting, clips, and weird dialogue. Hee. I think Chris Noth was lucky to dodge it. Not a bad promo, but just very weird, even for ION standards.

[WendyCR72]

Watching the show on ION, and that ad keeps being shown now. And the orange is still ugly.  :-)  Still, as I said, I'm rather surprised VDO participated in a promo, retro '70s look or not.

[WendyCR72]

Sarah Lindstrom from "Crazy" really did lead Crazy Dr. Webb on. Still can't picture the real-life ex-Mrs. Axl Rose, Stephanie Seymour, going for a guy like Webb in reality, but then that's why it's acting, right?  :-)

[Sigmagirl]

She was after his money. She was a total tease. 

 

p.s. Hi! New to this board; I spent a lot of time on the old TWOP House board.

[WendyCR72]

35 minutes ago, Sigmagirl said:

She was after his money. She was a total tease. 

 

p.s. Hi! New to this board; I spent a lot of time on the old TWOP House board.

<Waves> Welcome!  :-)

And I do agree with the "tease", assessment. No excuse for Webb to murder her ex-brother-in-law but still...she did lead him on.

[Xeliou66]

Yeah I agree, I didn't like Sara Lindstrom at all. It didn't seem like she was interested in Webb, she was just leading him on I guess because he had money, I was unsure what her interest was. And Webb was just a fruitcake, the way he just blurted out that he had Larry killed and expected Sara to be happy about it was bizarre, he thought that having someone killed was the ultimate act of devotion and he could get her to love him by doing so, he was that desperate. 

[Sigmagirl]

Well, she was using him to help her sister in the child custody case, by getting him to corroborate the "abuse" that didn't happen. But I'm puzzled about the expensive Inuit art: If she had let him buy it for her, he definitely would have felt she "owed" him sex; and having bought it for himself, she now has to go to his place to admire it, which allows him more opportunity to pressure her for sex. 

 

I guess she she was just out to see how much she could get him to do before she dumped him, because she likes to yank men's chains.

[WendyCR72]

ION is showing "The Gift" from S3, the last episode in this week's ION marathon, and the woman G/E first talk to, the one who is suspected of having an affair with the victim's father, also appeared in "Amends" in S7 as the widow of the murder victim, a police officer and Alex's late husband's partner.

The show sure had its go-to actors, as all shows do, I guess.

[WendyCR72]

Speaking of go-to actors, Patti D'Arbanville is on USA now in "World's Fair" from S6, and I also remember her as a sweatshop owner from one of the early Mothership years. But she also reminds me of an older version of another actress, Amy Carlson, who also appeared on the Mothership and was a cast member of L&O: Trial By Jury.

D'Arbanville, BTW, was also a cast member of the '90s Dick Wolf cop show, New York Undercover. So I guess the "Wolf Casting Agency" really was sort of a thing.  :-)

D'Arbanville and Carlson both also appeared on the soap, Another World. Can't recall if their characters were on the show at the same time or not, though! (Incidentally, Stephen Schnetzer, who now does voice-over work for Advil, etc. and appeared on CI as AJ, husband of Bella Khan in S7's "Assassin", was also on that same soap! As was Alicia Coppola, who appeared in S3 in "But Not Forgotten".)

[wknt3]

5 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Speaking of go-to actors, Patti D'Arbanville is on USA now in "World's Fair" from S6, and I also remember her as a sweatshop owner from one of the early Mothership years. But she also reminds me of an older version of another actress, Amy Carlson, who also appeared on the Mothership and was a cast member of L&O: Trial By Jury.

She was also on SVU! I'm pretty sure it's a SAG requirement that she must do at least one episode of every procedural and every network series filmed in NYC.

[WendyCR72]

14 hours ago, wknt3 said:

She was also on SVU! I'm pretty sure it's a SAG requirement that she must do at least one episode of every procedural and every network series filmed in NYC.

Wouldn't surprise me. Although she now seems to have dropped from sight. Carlson, on the other hand, is on Blue Bloods as Donnie Wahlberg's wife. (I also saw a recent repeat where Kathryn Erbe appeared as their marriage counselor. It was directed by former CI director Alex Chapple. And shared a producer in Siobhan Byrne O'Connor.)

So not only are the actors all closely linked to all of these NYC procedurals, I guess the BTS people are, too!

[wknt3]

18 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Wouldn't surprise me. Although she now seems to have dropped from sight. Carlson, on the other hand, is on Blue Bloods as Donnie Wahlberg's wife. (I also saw a recent repeat where Kathryn Erbe appeared as their marriage counselor. It was directed by former CI director Alex Chapple. And shared a producer in Siobhan Byrne O'Connor.)

So not only are the actors all closely linked to all of these NYC procedurals, I guess the BTS people are, too!

I was actually referring to Amy Carlson with that statemtn. Stupid ambiguous pronouns and poor quote editing! Yeah it seems Blue Bloods is providing a lot of work for the BTS types that worked on the L&O franchise and wanted to stay in NYC. I think it's one of the reasons the show is so well crafted when it comes to directing, lighting, camera work, etc. Basically everything but the writing.

[Spartan Girl]

On July 10, 2017 at 8:23 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah I agree, I didn't like Sara Lindstrom at all. It didn't seem like she was interested in Webb, she was just leading him on I guess because he had money, I was unsure what her interest was. And Webb was just a fruitcake, the way he just blurted out that he had Larry killed and expected Sara to be happy about it was bizarre, he thought that having someone killed was the ultimate act of devotion and he could get her to love him by doing so, he was that desperate. 

She and her sister were both horrible people. Leading on a guy is bad, but falsely accusing your ex of molesting your daughter just to get custody of the kids? That's a "you will burn in hell" lie.

[Xeliou66]

But then again, didn't Larry Feldman use his connection to the judge to rig the proceedings in his favor? I agree making up child abuse allegations is terrible but Larry was scum as well for rigging the proceedings. There was no one sympathetic in that episode, they were all manipulative scum.

[Spartan Girl]

I don't care if her ex rigged the courts, you never EVER lie about your daughter being molested just to win a divorce case. It's not only a despicable thing to do to your child, it's also a disservice to the real victims of rape and molestation. They have a hard time coming forward, let alone being believed, without fake victims making things worse.

[WendyCR72]

15 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I don't care if her ex rigged the courts, you never EVER lie about your daughter being molested just to win a divorce case. It's not only a despicable thing to do to your child, it's also a disservice to the real victims of rape and molestation. They have a hard time coming forward, let alone being believed, without fake victims making things worse.

Agreed. But I also agree with @Xeliou66 in that everyone in that episode was a disgusting waste of space. Except for those kids. Sometimes, I wish there was follow up years later with some of these families: The Feldmans and the Coulters, where the elder daughter was sexually assaulted and the wife and other daughter kidnapped all because the hubby/father was a greedy SOB, embezzled from his company, and then went all shady in an attempt to cover it up with a bad loan.

All the kids involved should hate their parents, have huge therapy bills, or both.

[WendyCR72]

So I'm watching the weekly ION marathon, and it looked like ION had a new mini interview with VDO. No idea about what as my phone rang, but still nice to see.

[WendyCR72]

My brain finally realized the actress that plays Stacy in "Playing Dead" was also the murder victim - the daughter of the police commissioner - in "The War At Home", too. Looked up the actress, Betty Gilpin, and I guess she made the franchise rounds and also played Sherlock's love interest, Fiona, on Elementary, too.

[Totale]

On 8/8/2017 at 10:35 AM, WendyCR72 said:

Looked up the actress, Betty Gilpin, and I guess she made the franchise rounds and also played Sherlock's love interest, Fiona, on Elementary, too.

She also had a major part on "Masters of Sex" a year or two back, and this year starred in "GLOW".

[Sigmagirl]

"Badge" was on yesterday, the one in which Terry Randolph (Viola Davis) dresses down Goren about his spending habits: his clothes, his dating, his cleaning lady, his expensive hobbies (the last two of which we have no evidence at all: The only thing I can think of on which he spends money for himself might be his vintage car). But I've been watching all the stuff he buys for his cases, and he can't possibly be getting reimbursed for: In "Tuxedo Hill," he buys a box of expensive imported Dover mints, "the Rolls-Royce of mints"; in "Want" he buys duplicate copies of John Tagman's soft-core porn to get an idea of Tagman's pathology; in "See Me" he buys an ophthalmologist's instrument to demonstrate how Dr. Dysart temporarily blinded his victim; in "Cold Comfort" he buys duplicate surgical instruments to show how Senator Kittridge's brain was removed. These last two he probably could have borrowed, but I'm pretty sure he says "we bought" them.

I'm sure you all can provide many more examples. No way is Goren putting in expense vouchers for mints and porn DVDs.

I think that instead of having "expensive hobbies," his hobby is studying expensive things. He always knows the value of every watch (in "Maledictus" he knows the vintage of the Rolex the sheriff is wearing and that it was a custom order); of every piece of jewelry (in "D.A.W." he recognizes the French designer of the antique ring and can appraise it from seeing a picture of a victim wearing it); in "Probability" the value of a dining room set; and in "Consumed" he knows those lamps are real Murano glass, even though Beth Landau insists they are knockoffs.

I'm not going to count the Sussman pickles he buys in "Shandeh" or the pricey figs from "Fico di Capo." ;-)

Comments?

[WendyCR72]

On 8/24/2017 at 0:24 PM, Sigmagirl said:

I'm not going to count the Sussman pickles he buys in "Shandeh" or the pricey figs from "Fico di Capo." ;-)

Comments?

Well, Goren was said to be based on Sherlock Holmes with Eames as his Watson. And Sherlock was supposedly extremely intuitive and perceptive. On paper? This sounds fastidious to the point of annoying.

But then add in Bobby's love of all things literary, using his "best investigative tool" - his library card - as he once told Alex, and I think he would pick up a wide knowledge base. Especially since he likely had begun this as a kid since his mother was a librarian before her schizophrenia took hold.

I agree with you that, with his odd purchases for the sake of his cases, he likely just used his own money and didn't put in vouchers. The joys of fictional police work.  :-)

[WendyCR72]

If anyone still follows the WE marathons, CI will - as of next week - air all day on Wednesdays and Thursdays. The Mothership takes over Tuesdays. (The overnight airings on Saturday nights/Sunday mornings and Tuesday nights/Wednesday mornings seem to be staying the same right now.) Just a heads up.

[WendyCR72]

Per the listings I get, ION must be liking CI back on its schedule. As of the Sunday marathon on 09/24/2017, rather than ending at 1:00 a.m., it ends at 3:00 a.m. And besides Sunday into early Monday mornings, starting Tuesday morning, 09/19/2017, at 1:00 a.m. ET, ION will air two-hour blocks of the show during the week at that time (1:00 a.m. ET to 3:00 a.m. ET) So it joins both USA and WE for the insomniac set, too.

So if anyone DVRs any episodes, you may have an increase in number.

[BigDfromLA]

I became a fan of CI while viewing it's reruns at the time that the very last season 10 episodes were airing. Over the years, I would see scattered episodes of the show over various seasons (usually seasons 3-9) on all the networks they aired on, including a L.A. area local station (Channel 56). This channel recently started airing the Season One episodes in order. I had never seen Season One before and I am shocked by it. Robert Goren is completely different...he is grinning, playful, constantly smiling, a little mischivous, laughing, jolly...he even takes chase after the bad guys a couple times. A completely different person than the sullen, gloomy, dark, troubled wreck that he seemed to be most other seasons. Deakins had moments where he was tense, testy and even lashed out at Carver a few times in season one, as opposed to the milquetoast doormat he seemed to become later. Very interesting that the show started like this and some characters took major turns in subsequent seasons.

I found the Season 10 therapy sessions scenes excellent. They should have done a whole episode of Goren and his therapist going at it. That would have been great!

[WendyCR72]

Wow, so you came into S1 quite late to the game, @BigDfromLA! Yes, Bobby started out halfway "normal", well...normal for Bobby.  :-)  The change seemed to take hold around Season 5, IMO, during "In The Wee Small Hours" when his mom had her psychotic break thanks to the fake cop that Judge Garrett had sent to Carmel Ridge to interrogate Bobby's mom.

Add in her terminal cancer in S6, her demanding physical presence, Frank popping up, his discovery about Mark Ford Brady, and then Bobby discovering his unknown nephew whom Frank sprung on him because - as usual - Frank needed something, it was just a slow decline. VDO seems to be a "method" actor, so I guess it was intentional. S10 seemed to be a glimpse of the "old" Bobby coming out from under the mountain of crap he was under, IMO!

As for Deakins, he did get a bit to do in Season 4 (which would lead to his departure a season later), but he still had outbursts, but they were few, far between, and - as I noticed - aimed more towards Logan/Barek than Goren/Eames by his end.

I really did miss Jamey Sheridan. Deakins was my favorite captain. And Carver's loss left a hole, too.

[Xeliou66]

Deakins was great, he was extremely underused though, especially in seasons 2-3. He got some airtime in season 1 and then starting getting a bit more in seasons 4-5, it seemed like in some season 2 and 3 episodes he was barely even there. I don't think fans realized how good he was until he was replaced by condescending asshole Ross and the no personality Callas. Joe Hannah was good in season 10, he was just only in 8 episodes. 

After season 5 the show changed for the worse drastically. The departures of Deakins and Carver hurt, and what hurt worse was the departure of Rene Balcer. Warren Leight made the show very soapy, he dumbed down the cases in favor of soapy drama and turned Goren into a depressed, tortured guy with no energy because of all the family crap they gave him. Season 10 did a lot to correct the mistakes of the Leight era and give Goren his energy back and get back to what the show was originally about. 

[WendyCR72]

One such scene where I believe Goren got some of his energy back was in Icarus, when he went after Roger, Amanda Rollins' (not to be confused with the "other" Amanda Rollins on SVU! How funny these two were introduced months apart back in 2011) assistant...er, dramaturg, Roger, as Bobby sort of shoves him and yells, "You're a YALEY! A DRAMATURG!"

I got a kick out of that scene. Looks like VDO had fun with it, too. Also liked him impersonating the Armani guy on the cell phone in Rispetto, too, and liked the wide smile he gave Eames at the end of that.

[wknt3]

15 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

After season 5 the show changed for the worse drastically. The departures of Deakins and Carver hurt, and what hurt worse was the departure of Rene Balcer. Warren Leight made the show very soapy, he dumbed down the cases in favor of soapy drama and turned Goren into a depressed, tortured guy with no energy because of all the family crap they gave him. Season 10 did a lot to correct the mistakes of the Leight era and give Goren his energy back and get back to what the show was originally about. 

I've said this before, but I still think Warren Leight gets blamed a little unfairly for what was essentially imposed by external forces, both here and on SVU. He was responding to what network executives wanted, which was simpler stories with more focus on the personalities of the protagonists. There is plenty of evidence that NBC and especially USA were insisting on going in that direction to make it more like the shows that were beating it in the ratings like House, CSI, etc. Perhaps the best evidence that this wasn't the showrunner's personal choice is that they kept on going in this direction after Leight was no longer in charge, through multiple changes in EPs until Season 10, which essentially was a wrap up and an attempt to not totally alienate the fanbase, meaning that the USA executive suites essentially left the writers and producers alone to do what they want. As far as Goren is concerned, that is more of his fault, but I don't think it was necessarily what he would have come up with if he had complete creative freedom. The people paying the bills wanted more personal stories and VDO was going through various issues that affected the choices such as collapsing from exhaustion and being hospitalized. It's hard to keep up the energy levels after something like that. I'm not a fan of the direction the show took, but I don't think it's all his fault and he did better with his mandate than those who came after him.

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 hours ago, wknt3 said:

I've said this before, but I still think Warren Leight gets blamed a little unfairly for what was essentially imposed by external forces, both here and on SVU. He was responding to what network executives wanted, which was simpler stories with more focus on the personalities of the protagonists.

Here's the problem I have with this: SVU when it premiered did deviate from the mothership in that we did get to see the personal lives of Elliot and Olivia and the retcon of Cragen's history (son erased from existence). Even when this show premiered, the only character whose personal life was delved into was Goren's. It wasn't until season 6? 7? that we got more details of Eames' personal life; though we did learn she was a surrogate for her sister (to explain Erbe's real life pregnancy). Balcer knew how to balance those things. It was after his departure and Leight coming in, that everything devolved into one big giant mess. And I will put that on him. I know about D'Onofrio's health issues-it's why Noth was brought back to the franchise and to this show, to take some of the pressure off. But D'Onofrio was pretty much checked out by season 7.

Edited September 12, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[WendyCR72]

5 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I know about D'Onofrio's health issues-it's why Noth was brought back to the franchise and to this show, to take some of the pressure off. But D'Onofrio was pretty much checked out by season 7.

 

I think VDO was still "present" in S7. For instance, there was no hiding how much fun he had in Vanishing Act (which makes some sense as I had read that VDO once said he wanted to be a street magician), but by S8? Yeah, I think he was ready to go.

IMO, he seemed to be rejuvenated a bit for S10, so at least it ended on a hopeful note.

And it will likely never happen - and I am more than fine with that as reboots are getting out of hand - but VDO said just a few months back on Twitter when asked that he wouldn't mind ever revisiting Goren. So it appears VDO doesn't resent the show or whatnot.

The show probably just was the usual chaos of actor issues, PTB changes, and executive interference. I do wish Rene Balcer had stayed on, though. And I agree with @GHScorpiosRule that Warren Leight does rely far too much on shock and awe. If it was just an isolated deal with CI, I could be persuaded that he wasn't majorly responsible and it was just actor demands or the suits, but a lot of the themes he did here he brought to SVU, so it seemed to be in Leight's wheelhouse.

As I said, Leight did write the S10 therapy sessions or so I'd read, so I guess he still had involvement 'til the end. Just glad it was reduced. In a way, I wish we'd gotten a S11, as I liked Chris Brancato's CI and think it was headed in a more positive direction.

[wknt3]

7 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Here's the problem I have with this: SVU when it premiered did deviate from the mothership in that we did get to see the personal lives of Elliot and Olivia and the retcon of Cragen's history (son erased from existence). Even when this show premiered, the only character whose personal life was delved into was Goren's. It wasn't until season 6? 7? that we got more details of Eames' personal life; though we did learn she was a surrogate for her sister (to explain Erbe's real life pregnancy). Balcer knew how to balance those things. It was after his departure and Leight coming in, that everything devolved into one big giant mess. And I will put that on him. I know about D'Onofrio's health issues-it's why Noth was brought back to the franchise and to this show, to take some of the pressure off. But D'Onofrio was pretty much checked out by season 7.

 

The impression that I get is that the initial mandate from NBC was only to be clearly different from the existing L&O franchise series. And given the initial ratings success there wouldn't be any pressure to change things or copy other shows. I think that Leight definitely is more character focused and soapier than Balcer, and he deserves his share of blame (and credit) for what ended up on screen, but I don't think it's fair to say that it's as simple as Balcer knew how to balance the elements and Leight didn't. Balcer wasn't being pressured in the same way to play up the personalities, add more running subplots and simplify the plots the way Leight was. I suspect that if Balcer stayed we would have seen the same change in direction although perhaps handled in way that is more to your tastes (and mine!) such as less focus on family and Bobby being more pressured and depressed by something work related. I suspect part of the reason he left was that he didn't want to go that direction.

 

2 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

The show probably just was the usual chaos of actor issues, PTB changes, and executive interference. I do wish Rene Balcer had stayed on, though. And I agree with @GHScorpiosRule that Warren Leight does rely far too much on shock and awe. If it was just an isolated deal with CI, I could be persuaded that he wasn't majorly responsible and it was just actor demands or the suits, but a lot of the themes he did here he brought to SVU, so it seemed to be in Leight's wheelhouse.

As I said, Leight did write the S10 therapy sessions or so I'd read, so I guess he still had involvement 'til the end. Just glad it was reduced. In a way, I wish we'd gotten a S11, as I liked Chris Brancato's CI and think it was headed in a more positive direction.

 

I think there was more than the usual amount of chaos in the last half of the show's run. I would have liked Balcer to have stayed too, but I don't think his staying would have changed some of the big problems such as VDO's issue or increased network interference. And I agree with some of your criticisms of Leight. He is soapier than I'd like and a bit preoccupied with family issues. And yes a bit too willing to go with the shock and awe. The way I think of it is he shouldn't be blamed for making CI more focused on personalities or going less cerebral, but he should be blamed for going to the well of Goren's family too often and for the disgusting Eames kidnapping plot. And we should recognize when his leaving didn't fix the problems and actually made them worse. The SVU comparison is apt. He definitely deserves blame for some things like the soapy tone of all the family issue plots and for going back to the well of "strong female protagonist is stalked and kidnapped for shock value", but he gets blamed for things like the constant focus on Benson that clearly came from above him, and indeed that he handled better than his replacement. I'm not WL's biggest fan by any means, but I do think he gets more blame and less credit than he deserves from the fandom.

[Xeliou66]

Leight definitely had pressure from above to make the show character focused and try to appeal to CSI fans, resulting in the very weird camera angles, filming styles and music montages that we saw in season 6, fortunately those didn't stay around because of fan backlash, so Warren isn't completely to blame for the show's problems, but he is to blame for the destruction of Goren, giving him a ridiculous amount of soap opera bullshit stories and taking away all of his energy and making him a depressed, sluggish character viewed as a weirdo by everyone around him, and the Eames kidnapping plot was awful as well, it's rather creepy how Warren has a thing about having female characters kidnapped.

The show was just totally different and much weaker starting in season 6, it did improve when Leight left before season 8, the soapy personal crap vanished and the show got back to being about the complex, dark cases but Goren's energy seemed very low still, I thought he would regain his mojo in season 8 after all his personal crap was done but for the most part he looked very tired and worn out. In season 10 he finally returned to his old self and had his spark back. 

[WendyCR72]

22 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

the Eames kidnapping plot was awful as well, it's rather creepy how Warren has a thing about having female characters kidnapped.

 

The only redeeming part to all of that was Eames saved herself. Trust me, that's rare on TV! Okay, and I did like that it was highlighted that Goren did need/care about Eames, too. But, yeah, no way in hell would that have happened under Rene Balcer's watch.

[WendyCR72]

Ah, right. Almost forgot tonight starts CI on ION late nights during the week for the night owls. Odd to start at episode 3 of S7 in this case, but okay. (So now WE, USA, and ION show the show in late night.)

[Beroglide]

Untethered being shown on ion now.  Ah memories...

[WendyCR72]

19 hours ago, Beroglide said:

Untethered being shown on ion now.  Ah memories...

With "Purgatory" being shown tonight (along with "Contract").

[Beroglide]

On 9/22/2017 at 8:46 PM, WendyCR72 said:

With "Purgatory" being shown tonight (along with "Contract").

that was a great night

[WendyCR72]

Apparently, this is a 7-days a week deal for ION (with the extra 2 hours of the Sunday marathon, since that used to end at 1:00 a.m.).

[WendyCR72]

I don't know if this is local scheduling or national, since I know MyNetwork does have stations nationally, but I saw, like SVU early in the week, that CI now has a 2-hour prime time block on MyNetwork from 8:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. ET. Tonight started with "Art" and "One", oddly in that order.

[WendyCR72]

Hmm, S8 on ION now or S9 on WE. Looks like S8 takes it! At least it's a pretty good one, "Identity Crisis". And I see USA jumps in with S7 in an hour...

[WendyCR72]

So MyNetwork is showing CI on Thursday nights in a 2-hour block. "The Faithful" just ended, and I have said this before, but so many years later, I still don't get why Carver got so butt hurt at the end after Goren convinced Father McShale to take the 25 years to life Carver had offered since McShale still wanted to protect his former lover/Kevin's mother, Melanie Grasso.

Goren promised nothing Carver didn't offer, and Goren let McShale decide. And perps change their pleas a lot. So why would Carver threaten to take Goren's badge?

[Xeliou66]

I think he didn't like how Goren went behind his back and didn't tell him what was going on, and to be honest I was pissed with Goren in that episode. Melanie Grasso didn't deserve any sympathy, she was a pathetic, phony gutless bitch, she gave up her son and didn't give a damn about him all because she didn't want everyone in her narrow minded circle to find out she screwed a priest. She deserved to be exposed for the pure fake she was, I didn't feel anything but contempt for her. 

I've said before, this episode reminds me a lot of Acts Of Contrition from season 5, especially when Goren being very sympathetic to a female who didn't deserve any sympathy IMO, but also the murders taking place in a church, a mentally ill homeless guy being involved in both and a member of the church with a secret from their past that played into the murder. 

[WendyCR72]

4 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I think he didn't like how Goren went behind his back and didn't tell him what was going on, and to be honest I was pissed with Goren in that episode. Melanie Grasso didn't deserve any sympathy, she was a pathetic, phony gutless bitch, she gave up her son and didn't give a damn about him all because she didn't want everyone in her narrow minded circle to find out she screwed a priest.

Not putting down your take, but I didn't see Melanie that way. As Goren said, she was young when she met McShale. What they did was wrong, but she claimed to love the guy. My guess is, it was like The Thorn Birds miniseries, where the priest professed his love but wouldn't walk the walk and leave the church for her and the baby. We aren't ever told of Melanie's circumstances at the time. Maybe she wasn't in a position to keep Kevin then, so McShale, being a "holy man", promised her if she carried the kid that he'd handle the rest. She was in later contact as she did say she was told Kevin was "well cared for".

Maybe you're right. I'm just saying, I don't think it was cut and dried as it was with Sister Olivia in S5.

As an aside, love or hate Melanie, it still sort of makes me sad seeing Dana Reeve there, knowing both she and her husband would die so young. (And leave their then-young son an orphan. Thank God Reeve's kids from his first marriage stepped up there!)

[Xeliou66]

I agree it wasn't as cut and dried as Sister Olivia, after all, Melanie didn't participate in beating someone until they became a vegetable, but I still feel no sympathy for Melanie. I thought she was a total phony, she abandoned her son and then didn't want to come clean because she wanted to continue living the lie of being a perfect suburban Catholic mom instead of someone who screwed a priest and abandoned her son. I felt nothing but disgust with her and I was disgusted with Goren for feeling sympathy for her, this is one of the few episodes where I felt Goren wasn't on the side of justice. I felt that Melanie should've been exposed as the hypocrite she was, I thought her actions set the whole plot in motion, had she not abandoned her son, I don't think any of the episodes crimes would've happened. Even if she wasn't legally responsible, I thought she was still morally responsible and shouldn't get any sympathy. 

Another thing I thought was weird in that episode was how Goren and Eames basically said to the sexton's daughter that he was having sex with Kevin, which was totally false. I thought that it was sloppy of them to say that with no evidence. Something about the whole episode seemed off, perhaps the show was still just finding its footing although season 1 didn't really have any growing pains overall, it was an excellent season. I liked The Faithful, particularly the "Goren Show" in the interrogation room, but it wasn't one of my top season 1 episodes. 

[WendyCR72]

On 10/6/2017 at 4:27 AM, Xeliou66 said:

Another thing I thought was weird in that episode was how Goren and Eames basically said to the sexton's daughter that he was having sex with Kevin, which was totally false.

Oh, I agree here. I never could understand why G/E came to that particular conclusion. There didn't seem to be anything supporting it. Still, as you say, for the most part, I did like "The Faithful" and, yeah, "The Goren Show" - and the hint ("lots of practice") we got very early on regarding his mother.

[Xeliou66]

Yeah I thought that was shoddy detective work on Goren and Eames part to say that without any proof. 

The "Goren show" was the best part of the episode, as well as the use of Deakins and Carver, it seemed they used Deakins and Carver more in season 1 than they did in subsequent seasons. But I thought the episode seemed off in places, like the examples I mentioned above and just the way the whole plot wasn't very coherent, it went in many angles but it all came down to the first murder being a random act of drug fueled rage and then morphing in to the story about the priest. It just seemed like the writing was a little off for this one, it sometimes happens early in a shows run but CI didn't have it, I thought season 1 was superb. 

[WendyCR72]

On 10/8/2017 at 8:24 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah I thought that was shoddy detective work on Goren and Eames part to say that without any proof. 

The "Goren show" was the best part of the episode, as well as the use of Deakins and Carver, it seemed they used Deakins and Carver more in season 1 than they did in subsequent seasons. But I thought the episode seemed off in places, like the examples I mentioned above and just the way the whole plot wasn't very coherent, it went in many angles but it all came down to the first murder being a random act of drug fueled rage and then morphing in to the story about the priest. It just seemed like the writing was a little off for this one, it sometimes happens early in a shows run but CI didn't have it, I thought season 1 was superb. 

And as we know, it was the first of many with a church/religious theme. For whatever reason, CI seemed to love that theme. I also liked the very beginning of this one, when Goren jumped on the pew using another's cop's head to hang on to (LOL!) to explain what picture angle he wanted.

What strikes me at the end, though, was how Eames challenges Goren in trying to spare Melanie Grasso while she was all about rules/the case. In later seasons, she seemed often to come around to his way of thinking. She seemed much more "career family cop" early on and seemed to soften with the partnership. Not saying that's bad. Just that Alex seemed more "hard" at the show's beginning.