Oliver Queen: The Arrow

[nksarmi]

I was just happy to see him out of the LoA outfit.  I am so hoping he is full on Green Arrow next season.

[wonderwall]

It's really sad to see just how much of a number season 3 did on Oliver's character. Out of every single character on the show, his character suffered the most. He was shown to be a bad CEO, a bad brother, bad boyfriend, bad friend, bad hero, and was shown to have had bad judgement... Why was that all necessary? Was it because of his ridiculous identity crisis? What was the point of doing that to the main character of the show? 

 

I sincerely hope that the show does a complete 180 next season and shows that Oliver is learning from his mistakes. I want to see him be a good boyfriend to Felicity by just being there for her, a good friend to Diggle by standing by his side when he's dealing with HIVE, a good brother to Thea by supporting her choices, and a good hero by actually making him go out and fight crime instead of dealing with some shitty ass villain like Ra's. 

 

I really do love Oliver, I think that he's a character with one of the biggest hearts I've seen on television, but he's completely messed up from the past 8 years... I just want him to GROW as a character in the upcoming seasons. I don't think I can stand seeing the show shit on him anymore. 

 

I think I'm hopeful for this because next season will be lighter, and I'm SO on board if he becomes GA next season with Diggle, Felicity, and Thea by his side supporting him. 

Edited May 22, 2015 by wonderwall

[AyChihuahua]

I didn't mean to bum you out with my Target Practice post.  I was somewhat kidding.  But for me, personally, he's the character who overall came off the worst this season.  And prior to this season, he'd sincerely been one of my all-time favorite tv characters, and I am a person who gets VERY into tv shows.  They just made him so incredibly stupid.  And I don't mean emotionally; I mean intellectually.  I do have some residual fondness for him from the first two seasons, so I'll be more forgiving of his issues this year if they fix it next year (unlike, say, Ray Palmer, who I will hate forever). 

[wonderwall]

I didn't mean to bum you out with my Target Practice post.  I was somewhat kidding.  But for me, personally, he's the character who overall came off the worst this season.  And prior to this season, he'd sincerely been one of my all-time favorite tv characters, and I am a person who gets VERY into tv shows.  They just made him so incredibly stupid.  And I don't mean emotionally; I mean intellectually.  I do have some residual fondness for him from the first two seasons, so I'll be more forgiving of his issues this year if they fix it next year (unlike, say, Ray Palmer, who I will hate forever). 

 

What bummed me out was that what you said was sort of true :p

 

I still LOVE Oliver. I think he has some attributes that just make me love him more (eg. his huge ass dumb heart), I just hate how the writers wrote him this season. I hate how they put Oliver and his identity crisis on the backburner. I hate how they twisted Oliver just to make Malcolm/Ra's relevant. I hate how they had to kill him off to give Laurel a chance to shine and to give Ray and Felicity a start. 

 

Oliver suffered the most from the writers hands this season. And that sort of makes me sad because he's supposed to be the main character. HE shouldn't be the one being twisted to accommodate others. 

[olicityfan25]

It's because he suffered for that ridiculous BC story.

The fact that her character has her comic name and his doesn't, shows how absolutely BC is a mess of a character.

[tv echo]

SA's acting has improved from season to season, but even in season 1, his acting ability was underrated (imo) because it was more nuanced...

 

In this scene with Tommy (in 1x03), Oliver is smiling but you can tell it's a fake, almost calculated smile.  Look at his eyes - they're distant and detached.  You can see suffering in his eyes.

 

   

 

Now compare that to this Oliver smile in the same episode when he first meets Felicity.  This smile is real, not fake.  The eyes are present.  Even though he's still reserved, you can tell he's genuinely feeling amusement.

 

   

 

 

SA does a lot of silent, expressive acting with his eyes.  That takes talent.

 

(source for gifs)

Edited May 25, 2015 by tv echo

[wonderwall]

Hahaha, I love these meaning-of-words-discussions!!!

In order to add my own two cents to the question of what "hock" might mean:

 

If it is indeed a Yiddish Word, maybe it means something like "to yammer"?! This is my speculation after reading the following passage on a (non scholarly written) Yiddish page:

 

 

I have no idea if the source is trustworthy: http://www.bubbygram.com/yiddishglossary.htm#hockchinik

 

But at least it would make sense in the context of the Oliver-Felicity- dialogue in 3x08: If Oliver didn't agree to help Barry, Felicity would pressure him into doing it - by "yammering" - of sorts, not so much in the sense of "being whiny", but more in the sense of "jangling his nerves".

 

If it IS a yiddish word (which MG sort of confirmed on tumblr), what I loved the most about that word is that OLIVER used it first in the conversation. It's like he thought, gotta learn some jewish words for wifey and proceeded to go online to look for them :p That is my head canon, don't ruin it for me.

[statsgirl]

.In this scene with Tommy (in 1x03), Oliver is smiling but you can tell it's a fake, almost calculated smile.  Look at his eyes - they're distant and detached.  You can see suffering in his eyes.

 

Now compare that to this Oliver smile in the same episode when he first meets Felicity.  This smile is real, not fake.  The eyes are present.  Even though he's still reserved, you can tell he's genuinely feeling amusement.

That's a very interesting thought. Stephen Amell often says in interviews that the first time Oliver smiled was when he met Felicity, and the comments always say that's not true, he smiled at Tommy and Thea.  Maybe this is the answer, that while Oliver smiled earlier, the first genuine smile was at Felicity.

[kismet]

I agree the first few episodes, there were "smiles" or hints of smiles, but they never felt authentic or genuine. They almost felt like OQ was thinking, oh yea I should be smiling right now and then would give a half-hearted attempt. It sorta feels like those smiles you give when you're passing people on the street. Its a "smile" but its not a "smile". Or they were just part of his pre-Island charm tactics used to disguise & deflect. I think a lot of it has to do with the eyes, a genuine authentic smile will always follow through to the eyes. As cheesy as it is the eyes are the windows to the soul. And in those first episodes of the season, OQ eyes always seemed clouded with sorrow, regret or some other dark emotion. But in that moment, when he met FS he was genuinely amused and it reflected in his eyes. His eyes actually look alive & not dead. There was a noticeable change in his character.

 

Whether or not these smiles and eyes were all part of some grand acting plan by SA in s1, is perhaps up for debate. He does admit I believe in an interview that the smile he gave EBR was a break in character, so maybe he just decided to run with it after that. In my book though, that is the definition of on-screen chemistry, when there is a spark that just comes from interacting with a person. But I will say that after 3 seasons, SA has proven that he can act with his eyes & facial expressions alone. He's pretty good at emoting exactly where OQ is and what he wants the audience to be feeling in one look. It's pretty impressive. And if I'm being a little biased, it saved a lot of the shittier writing/plotting that was rampant in s3.

[wonderwall]

I actually think Oliver's first real smile was when he saw Thea... And then the rest of his smiles were fake (including when he smiled at Tommy). I think Felicity was his second genuine smile. 

 

Which sort of fitting especially with season 3 where it's pretty much openly stated that Thea and Felicity are the two most important people in his life. 

[wingster55]

See, I think the notion that his *first* genuine smile being at Felicity does a dis-service to his relationships with Tommy and Thea. It doesn't have to be a full out ear to ear grin...but why wouldn't Oliver be happy to see those two?

[apinknightmare]

If we're to believe what we've been told (and we've seen the beginning of it with Oliver torturing Shrieve), Oliver spent two years disassociating himself from....himself. So it's not out of the realm of possibility that he was playing a part when he came back - and we saw that to a certain extent - and was just being who he thought they wanted him to be. I don't think it's a disservice to anyone; seems to me it's a good representation of someone who was gone for a long time, had to fight for his life, and detached himself from a lot of the things that made him happy in order to survive. 

 

There probably was a part of him that was glad to see them when he came back, but I think that was a very, very small part of him that took him a long time to get back to. Especially since he didn't have to hide from Felicity the way he had to hide from Thea and Tommy (and his mother, and Laurel, etc.) because Felicity was just a chick he went to see about a laptop. She had no expectations, didn't know him, and didn't expect anything of him.

Edited May 26, 2015 by apinknightmare

[tarotx]

Maybe he was worried about Thea and maybe some oh God Tommy will know he's changed the most so apprehensive about trying to pull off "Oliver Queen" around him.

[kismet]

See, I think the notion that his *first* genuine smile being at Felicity does a dis-service to his relationships with Tommy and Thea. It doesn't have to be a full out ear to ear grin...but why wouldn't Oliver be happy to see those two?

I'm not trying to do any disservice to his relationships with Thea or Tommy. Apinknightmare took most of the words out of my mouth (nicely worded). I think he was happy to see them, but I think it was also filled with many other emotions like guilt & regret. Thea & Tommy were very important relationships, but they were also complicated. His interaction with Felicity had none of that baggage or pre-existing expectations from having to be the returned from the dead brother & BFF. I'm not even sure I believed that OQ was even genuinely happy to be home for most of the first episodes. Being genuinely happy I don't think was something that he allowed for himself which is why I think his interactions (esp with his closest loved ones) were so controlled in the beginning. He seemed very mission focused and detached from himself, which is to expected considering all that he had gone through.

[tv echo]

Remember that Oliver also said that when he returned, he was in the mindset of viewing everyone as either a threat or a target, and that Felicity was the first person who he viewed as a 'person' (meaning, not a threat or a target).  I agree that he disassociated himself from OQ in order to survive his horrific experiences.  So when he returned, he was this detached person who viewed the people that OQ loved as targets (people who could be hurt and had to be protected) and everyone else as threats (people who might hurt him or the targets).  He did not love Felicity then so he did not view her as a target, but she was also so obviously harmless that he couldn't view her as a threat either.  He just saw her as a person.

Edited May 26, 2015 by tv echo

[dcinmb]

I thought Oliver's smiles for Raisa seemed genuine.

[BkWurm1]

I didn't mean to bum you out with my Target Practice post.  I was somewhat kidding.  But for me, personally, he's the character who overall came off the worst this season.  And prior to this season, he'd sincerely been one of my all-time favorite tv characters, and I am a person who gets VERY into tv shows.  They just made him so incredibly stupid.  And I don't mean emotionally; I mean intellectually.  I do have some residual fondness for him from the first two seasons, so I'll be more forgiving of his issues this year if they fix it next year (unlike, say, Ray Palmer, who I will hate forever). 

I don't remember where I read it on this board but someone mentioned that in season one and two Oliver was much smarter.  He was a brilliant tactician and it was usually only when emotions got in the way that he would make poor choices . Like not backing up Diggle when he needed him.  Refusing for a while to suspect his mom.  Helena, ect

 

I feel that on top of Oliver’s PTSD and pre-island lack of normal social skills, this year he was even more emotionally comprised which led to a constant stream of bad choices.  But emotionally compromised in maybe a way you wouldn't think.  

 

When he first came back to Starling, he was closed off and it was near impossible for him to let people in or let them help him.  People muddled his thinking.  When emotions entered, they warped his decisions and made him stupid. His survival skill came from being focused and not letting anything distract him. To trust completely in himself.  That trust in his instinct was very important. 

 

  Over the years since he's been back, he grew past that cold, closed off guy that had to see everyone as a target or a threat in order to survive.  He started to change.  He let Diggle and then Felicity into his life.  He let Thea in in a meaningful way.  He went from relying all on himself to trusting and depending on his partners, not just for info or back up, but for helping him think a different way, really in a bigger and better way.  But also a far more complicated way. 

 

There is a almost elegant simplicity to his old way of doing things.  Identify the target.  Determine their crimes.  Make them pay, often literally.  It was black and white.  He didn't worry much about the law or even saving lives, not directly.  He was there to exact justice, not prevent crimes.  He focused, made his plan and then executed it and it made him look very smart.

 

In season two he now admitted to needing his partners.  He wove their contributions into the way he instinctively acted.  Their voices in his head became a part of his gut reactions. 

 

The thing is, I think when he rejected Felicity, he also rejected the man he had been becoming, the one that worked with a team and relied on them and often really needed them to help him remember to look for the more subtle solution to the more and more complex problem they faced.

 

He tried to go back to his old way but by now, that way was no longer his natural gut level way of operating. Oliver only became so stupid this year because he rejected his instincts to trust and rely on his partners and their influence over him.

 

He has always had blind spots and his team helped him with that even in season one.   He becomes so focus on plowing ahead and dealing with a problem, he often forgets to look for easier ways around it.  Felicity and Diggle have had to remind him to find a different way.  He did make some poor tactical decisions back in season one but often there was no one there to point them out and so he used his relentless drive to fix his mistakes and keep going.   This season, he seems extra dumb because we know how his team could help thus making his choices frequently look absurd and shortsighted.

 

He thought he would lose his focus if he let himself have love and a dream of a life going forward, but in season one and two, he had been opening himself up to both those things unconsciously and they had been making him stronger and smarter and then he freaked out and basically robbed himself of his truest instincts.   

 

So many of his poor choices in season three could have been avoided if he'd been willing to let his team be to him what they had become to him by the end of season two.  It's like he returned to two dimensional thinking, Like with Malcolm.  Oliver decided that because of Thea, he would not kill him.  BUT had he been willing to consider the grey of life rather than a strict black and white liner thought, he likely would have understood he had no obligation to protect Malcolm. 

 

His choices lost the nuance they'd acquired.  He stopped doing things another way and returned to thinking brute strength and determination - often all he had to count on before - would solve all the problems.  He early on in the season distanced himself from the connections that had let him learn to not accept the rules laid down by the bad guys.  He stopped looking for another way. 

 

And so one bad choice beget another bad choice but I do now feel that they didn't regress his character so much as tap deeply into a preexisting character flaw.  He was basically emotionally compromised all season long, only this time it was not emotions alone that led to bad choices, but his rejection of that part of himself that had changed.  His old ways didn't work anymore.   He now needed to embrace these emotional changes in himself in order for his thinking NOT to be clouded.    

 

I think he FINALLY started to get his head straight when he got a wake up call after finding he and DIggle in the NP dungeon.  He further got his head out of his ass after he talked to Felicity about why he was doing what he was doing.   At that point he was listening to his partners again (finally) had managed to get Ra's out of his head and even had come to his senses about Malcolm.  (Later he make a separate deal with Malcolm to save Starling, but notice that before that, between 16 and 20 he won't listen t him and he never does one bit more training with him. He's has stopped thinking Malcolm can train him to defeat Ra's - but that's another topic )

 

Anyway, what my convoluted post is trying to say is that now that Oliver has his heart and his head working together, not at odds, he should go back to that much smarter guy. 

Edited May 30, 2015 by BkWurm1

[wonderwall]

Anyway, what my convoluted post is trying to say is that now that Oliver has his heart and his head working together, not at odds, he should go back to that much smarter guy. 

 

My friend, even though this makes 100% sense, I feel like you put much more thought into Oliver's arc than the writers did this season which is such a shame. But yours is the headcanon I'm going to accept. Yep, this is what happened in season 3. 

[quarks]

Well, for me, Oliver's major, genuinely inexplicable what are you doing decision was his decision to team up with Malcolm Merlyn and tell Thea that Malcolm could stay on the couch. (Why?)  And there, I think the fundamental problem was that Ra's Al Ghul this season wasn't scary enough. We heard plenty of tidbits about the guy last season, but then again, at the end of the season Ra's at least allowed a group of League Assassins to help bring down Slade and the Mirakuru soldiers, and frankly, in my opinion, Amanda Waller, what with teaching Oliver how to torture people, trying to shoot down entire planes just to kill one person (and as a side effect I guess cripple the Chinese economy since apparently that was the goal of the bioweapon as well), turning people into assassins, using sociopaths to rescue questionable senators, and bioweapons was a lot scarier than Ra's was and a much worse person. If Oliver had teamed up with Malcolm to take down Amanda Waller, that would have been interesting, and I think we all could have had a really good argument about whether or not Oliver was justified in teaming up with Malcolm to stop Amanda and ARGUS.  (Plus, that would have created a different Diggle/Lyla/Deadshot conflict.) 

 

But with Ra's - sure, he was evil, but he seemed to me to be less of an immediate threat than first season Malcolm, Slade, Reverse Flash, Fyers, Amanda Waller or even Laurel - ok, I'm kidding about Laurel.  The worst thing Ra's did all season was incapacitate Oliver for long enough to allow Brick to take over, which really was more of an indictment against the Starling City government (while offering a plot reason for Ray and Laurel to get into costume). It didn't help that Barry ended the season by saying, "Yeah, I get that Ra's is bad - but I've got to talk to Not-Wells about my my mother!" It just made Ra's seem like even less of a threat - Slade was bad enough that everyone had to team up, Reverse Flash was bad enough that everyone had to team up, Ra's was - oh, yeah, we gotta go do some other crap. Good thing you "scientists" only need a couple of hours to create a cure for the bioweapon - uh, wait, if you can create a cure for a bioweapon in a few hours why haven't you cured HIV/AIDS yet?

 

So for me, this comes down again not so much as an Oliver problem, but a season three Big Bad problem. 

[tarotx]

Imo Oliver doesn't really treat his friends and family like dirt. He just doesn't let himself be fully present in any relationship. And being "alone on the island" just reinforced that trait when he's in crisis mode.

Oliver was very judgey and hypocritical with his mom but I let myself fanwonk that Oliver feared that if Moira was secretive about the affair and of Thea's parentage, she was just untrustworthy even to the point that maybe she was more than compliant in the undertaking and the sabotaging of the Gambit.

Edited June 1, 2015 by tarotx

[kismet]

Agree that OQ does not treat his friends or family like dirt. I think he loves his family & friends and has difficulty fully opening himself for a relationship. I think he is still healing from the emotional & physical torture he underwent on the island. Post-Island I think he shows his love by trying to keep them safe & protect them from his darkness. He feels like being around him puts them at risk or that he'll only hurt them. In the past 8 years, he has witnessed first hand the death of multiple loved ones either directly of indirectly his fault - so his concern is not without some merit. Does he have a lot to learn about being more emotionally balanced - yes. But he is trying, so that is what is important to me. He'll have some setbacks but hopefully those will be less as time goes by.

 

Prior to leaving on the Gambit OQ was very emotionally immature and made poor choices. But a lot of people that age make similar mistakes. We know he cheated on LL and slept around which is not good behavior. But she still wanted to be with him, so he must have some other redeeming qualities. Sara clearly felt a strong attraction to him as a friend or perhaps more. Getting on a trans-oceanic boat trip is more than just casual hook-up, you have to want to spend time with the person. What he did was wrong but perhaps he just wasn't given enough guidance in terms of emotional relationships. His parents had their own affairs. Even OQ referenced that he perhaps could have benefited from more parenting. I'm not trying to blame other people, but he clearly was given a very long leash from which to get in trouble with. Tommy was a devoted friend as we've seen both pre&post island. His family also desperately missed him. SO there is evidence that perhaps despite his bad choices he still is a friend/family member who has a good heart and just doesn't know how to really navigate those relationships properly.

 

Lastly, I do not forgive or overlook his behavior because he looks like SA. That is a little insulting when people assume that. I can forgive or understand some of his behavior because the character of OQ is emotionally traumatized, suffers from PTSD and other emotional shortcomings for a variety of reasons. His behavior is realistic in consideration for what he has suffered. Will he always get forgiven for everything - no. But so long as he is progressively making improvements and trying to make better choices he will likely get some degree of understanding from me.

[EmeraldArcher]

Agree that OQ does not treat his friends or family like dirt. I think he loves his family & friends and has difficulty fully opening himself for a relationship. I think he is still healing from the emotional & physical torture he underwent on the island. Post-Island I think he shows his love by trying to keep them safe & protect them from his darkness. He feels like being around him puts them at risk or that he'll only hurt them. In the past 8 years, he has witnessed first hand the death of multiple loved ones either directly of indirectly his fault - so his concern is not without some merit. Does he have a lot to learn about being more emotionally balanced - yes. But he is trying, so that is what is important to me. He'll have some setbacks but hopefully those will be less as time goes by."

I agree with everything kismet said. I've started my series re-watch and just finished S1 E17, "The Huntress Returns." This episode sets up a lot of Oliver's angst that we had to endure in S3. First, during Oliver and Tommy's conversation about Oliver being the vigilante, Oliver mistakenly believes that Tommy is mad because he hid the truth from him, and he tells Tommy that now he can tell him everything. Unfortunately for Oliver, his best friend and the first person from his pre-island life who knows his secret rejects him and his desire to share what happened to him and calls him a murderer.

In this same episode, Helena wreaks havoc in Oliver's life by threatening his family and attacking Tommy and Felicity. Worse yet, Oliver chooses to shoot-to-kill at Helena, a woman he once confided in and allowed himself to be emotionally vulnerable to. And then, Helena shoots and critically wounds Makenna (sic), a strong, confident woman with whom Oliver really connected. He was adorable with her; he bumbled asking her out on a date just as much as he did asking Felicity in S3.

At the end of the episode, Tommy begins to understand how hard all of this is for Oliver, especially when Oliver says that he must be alone (can't be with someone romantically) and that his happiness isn't important. Oliver maintains this attitude through S2, as his Russian dalliance with Isabel was just sex, and his relationship with Sara was forged in shared pain and loneliness. S3 E1 was such a callback to S1 E17: Oliver optimistically allows himself to entertain a relationship with Felicity, but she is injured in an RPG attack on their date. Oliver retreats back into the fortress around his heart, feeling that he isn't allowed to be happy in a normal, romantic relationship. His "I'm happy" declaration in S3 E23 is even sweeter when considered the culmination of an arc that began in S1 E17.

(I'm new here--first post! I've been reading the forum daily for months, though)

Edited June 1, 2015 by EmeraldArcher

[wonderwall]

(I'm new here--first post! I've been reading the forum daily for months, though)

 

Welcome to the board! :) You probably had a front row seat to all the crazy on this board! What made you start posting? :)

[EmeraldArcher]

Welcome to the board! :) You probably had a front row seat to all the crazy on this board! What made you start posting? :)

Hi, wonderwall! I've loved reading your posts. I just introduced myself in The Quiver thread, but to answer your question, I like the posters here from what I've read. I love Arrow, especially Oliver, and just wanted to be an active member of the community. There's a lot of thoughtful discussion here, and I value that.

[BkWurm1]

(I'm new here--first post! I've been reading the forum daily for months, though)

 

 

Welcome!  And a lovely first post it was.  Nice parallel about McKenna and Felicity getting hurt.  Kind of a side note but I understand that in the Arrow 2.5 comic, Helena ends up being supportive of the budding relationship between Oliver and Felicity, encouraging Oliver to "not let this one go".  Makes a nice character arc for her (even if it only happened on ink and paper)

 

Well, for me, Oliver's major, genuinely inexplicable what are you doing decision was his decision to team up with Malcolm Merlyn and tell Thea that Malcolm could stay on the couch. (Why?)

 

 

 

I've been doing a lot of think about this as well.  (Surprise!)

 

His team up with Malcolm to train him and Thea and his deal with Malcolm to help him with insider information on the LoA, they are two entirely separate deals. 

 

The first deal Malcolm agreed to (to train Oliver and Thea) he agreed to it to save his own skin ( and  his daughter's).  It was a terrible choice for Oliver to make for many reasons, one of the biggest being (and frequently pointed out by members of this board) that Malcolm could not possibly train Oliver to defeat a man that Malcolm could not possibly defeat in combat.  That was the point of Malcolm's whole convoluted, rash plan.  Malcolm had been defeated by Oliver so he hoped that Oliver could defeat Ra's.

 

Oliver failed.  And it shook him.  And more than his failure (he'd had them before) but the man, Ra's got in his head.  It wasn't until he and Diggle were chained up in Nanda Parbat he finally realized that he'd been doing it for him, to try and silence that crazed voice in his head that kept reminding him that there was someone out that that could defeat him and he'd blown Ra's up to mythical proportions.   

 

Recklessly going to Nanda Parbat, basically forcing another confrontation with Ra's - it finally woke Oliver up to what had been going on.  He called his actions egotistical and insane and that Thea was his excuse to justify working with Malcolm because he was afraid.  His fear was natural - he should have died - but he kept it all bottled up and he came back pretty much already set on self sabotage, not letting himself heal before pushing forward on a very bad idea.  He came back closed off again.  He couldn't hear anyone's voice but his. He was back to doing things on his own.

 

Diggle said he understood the need to have the right mindset, that almost insane confidence that let Oliver not hesitate, but Ra’s victory over him had taken that certainty away.   IMO, Oliver not letting himself be anything but the Arrow meant that when the Arrow was defeated - the man that he'd given up everything to be (including love) - he was left just a shell of who he'd been.

 

What he thought was most important - the only thing he let himself be defined as - it was not enough.  He was willing to do anything for Thea and he loved Felicity, that those were facts, not a state of being. 

 

But when Oliver acknowledged his headlong rush to challenge Ra’s and defeat him was about ego and that his insanity had put Diggle at risk, I think he realized he’d made a mistake in letting Ra’s get in his head.  Oliver had faced others he could not defeat but then he learned to go after them in a different way.  With Ra's, he was unable to think out of the box.  He was still trying to play by the rules Ra's set and defeat him on skill and strength alone which is why he'd turned to Malcolm in the first place. 

 

I think if Oliver had been in a better place emotionally with Felicity and with accepting himself as more than just a weapon, then he could have come back from his defeat willing to accept help or listen to others so he could come at the problem from a different way, instead it took another almost defeat to wake him up. But he did wake up. 

It’s interesting that Oliver never trains with Malcolm again.  He drops him on Thea's couch.  He doesn't interact with him until during the time Roy is in jail.  Malcolm tries to tell him Ra's won't stop coming, but Oliver want's nothing to do with Malcolm.   His deal with Malcolm is over.  Ra's hasn't been beaten, but Oliver is no longer interested in training with Malcolm.

 

So why did he drop him off on Thea's couch?  I think Oliver was hedging his bets.  Ra's let them go and canceled the blood debt that Malcolm owed but Oliver had to know that Ra's wasn't done with him yet.  Using Malcolm as his trainer was dumb and reckless and fated to fail.  BUT the second deal he made with Malcolm made sense.

 

He had a choice between trying to turn a current member of the LoA, maybe Maseo or Nyssa, or use Malcolm for info.  Tatsu tried and failed to get through to Maseo so why would Oliver succeed where she had failed?  Then Nyssa was still Ra's daughter even if she was being displaced as the heir.  Those were not sources that he could be certain of being on his side.  Malcolm no longer had his own hide to save, but he owed Oliver one (saving from Ra's) and more importantly, Oliver was able to dangle a very alluring offer of his own. 

 

And this time, he really did need what Malcolm could provide and Malcolm was able to do make good.  Do we really think anyone else could have slipped in and out around Nanda Parbat without being caught?  Also his initial familiarity with what accepting the title of Ra's meant to Starling was what allowed Oliver to make any contingency plans in the first place.  He should have also let his team know, but I understand his instinct to not involve them unless he has to and he went into the League thinking he had time to work from the inside so to his mind, keeping them in the dark was safer. 

 

So to recap, the first team up with Malcolm a terrible awful, misguided selfish choice born out of fear...which Oliver realized and gave up on.  The second team up with Malcolm, a needed evil to save hundreds of thousands of lives.  It's interesting that apart from being upset that he trusted Malcolm and not them, they didn't question the morality this time of using Malcolm, I think because this time the need was justified. 

 

I'm not sure what they would say about him rewarding Malcolm with control of the LoA but I can see the benefit of offering something so big that it effectively assured Oliver of Malcolm's loyalty. 

Edited June 1, 2015 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

Quote from EmeraldArcher -"I agree with everything kismet said. I've started my series re-watch and just finished S1 E17, "The Huntress Returns." This episode sets up a lot of Oliver's angst that we had to endure in S3. First, during Oliver and Tommy's conversation about Oliver being the vigilante, Oliver mistakenly believes that Tommy is mad because he hid the truth from him, and he tells Tommy that now he can tell him everything. Unfortunately for Oliver, his best friend and the first person from his pre-island life who knows his secret rejects him and his desire to share what happened to him and calls him a murderer.

In this same episode, Helena wreaks havoc in Oliver's life by threatening his family and attacking Tommy and Felicity. Worse yet, Oliver chooses to shoot-to-kill at Helena, a woman he once confided in and allowed himself to be emotionally vulnerable to. And then, Helena shoots and critically wounds Makenna (sic), a strong, confident woman with whom Oliver really connected. He was adorable with her; he bumbled asking her out on a date just as much as he did asking Felicity in S3.

At the end of the episode, Tommy begins to understand how hard all of this is for Oliver, especially when Oliver says that he must be alone (can't be with someone romantically) and that his happiness isn't important. Oliver maintains this attitude through S2, as his Russian dalliance with Isabel was just sex, and his relationship with Sara was forged in shared pain and loneliness. S3 E1 was such a callback to S1 E17: Oliver optimistically allows himself to entertain a relationship with Felicity, but she is injured in an RPG attack on their date. Oliver retreats back into the fortress around his heart, feeling that he isn't allowed to be happy in a normal, romantic relationship. His "I'm happy" declaration in S3 E23 is even sweeter when considered the culmination of an arc that began in S1 E17. (I'm new here--first post! I've been reading the forum daily for months, though)"

Welcome! Thanks for joining the conversation. Enjoy what you said about McKenna & Tommy.

Really think in s3 we saw the clash between s1 & s2 OQ. So it makes sense that we can callback to both seasons for both parallels & lessons lost or gained. There was a duality to both OQ & the Arrow. He was almost in his own personal triangle the whole season.

 

Edited - To try to fix formatting. Initially posted from mobile & it got all messed up.

Edited June 1, 2015 by kismet

[BkWurm1]

Really think in s3 we saw the clash between s1 & s2 OQ. So it makes sense that we can callback to both seasons for both parallels & lessons lost or gained. There was a duality to both OQ & the Arrow. He was almost in his own personal triangle the whole season.

 

Yes!  What a succinct way to put it. I admire brevity.  Not well acquainted with it, but I admire it.  ;p. 

[EmeraldArcher]

So, reading too much fan fiction has messed with my head! Most fan fiction writers portray Oliver as smiling only at Felicity or reserving his only full-on smile for her. So, that stoic Oliver was sort of impressed on my brain. However, during my series re-watch, I've noticed that Oliver smiles genuinely quite a bit and at other people besides Felicity. Some of his best smiles have been directed at Diggle! He doesn't come across really emotionally constipated until S3--ironically enough, given how frequently he expresses his love for Felicity. In the earlier seasons, he just seems appropriately guarded.

Also, the fan fiction writers collectively highlight Oliver's beautiful blue eyes. How have I never noticed them before now?! Such pretty eyes! My timing for this discovery is perfect, too--I'm in S2, the season of the Olicity heart eyes!

[tarotx]

I personally don't think Oliver was Dumb as a Rock. He was just very scared of failing and of Ra's with the later tied to the first. The first caused by a lot of tragedy and some extreme self disrespect. And the later caused by knowing the legend and being "killed" by Ra's mid season. The Ra's fear was greatly harmed by poor Ra's casting. Imo.

Oliver made poor decisions like keeping Malcolm around but he had grounds for that decision and suffered Consequences. He didn't want Thea to be familyless. He had a lot of fear of death this season. Losing his mom bought all the loss to the forefront and the the mistakes he was making was putting people in danger. Then Sara died and it made matters worst. Of course Ra's ended up killing both Oliver and Thea. Plus Diggle is extremely disappointed and can't trust his family with Oliver now.

[dtissagirl]

I think I give Oliver a pass because most of the times he made dumb decisions in S3, I could see ~writers writing the dumb for plot~ behind it. My favorite still is that time in 304 when he told Nyssa that Thea is Malcolm's daughter FOR THE SINGLE REASON that Nyssa needed to kidnap Thea a couple of scenes later. It was super duper incredibly dumb to share that piece of information, but it was Dumb for Plot, so I'm gonna mock it forever and ever, but not resent it.

[kismet]

Oliver is not dumb. S3 OQ had to be dumb because the writers were not smart enough to write quality plots/stories/characters that utilized his intelligence & still achieved their goals. I hope they figure out how to write an intelligent Oliver Queen like he was in s 1&2.

[wingster55]

She's actually in the place that Oliver was getting to in the finale by beginning to realize that the hero part of him and the Oliver part of him are all the same person.

 

I really don't think he made that correlation..or realized he could be a hero and have a "normal" life. 

[apinknightmare]

I really don't think he made that correlation..or realized he could be a hero and have a "normal" life.

He didn't. That's why I wrote that he was beginning to realize it. IMO, that's the different person he's become that he wants to learn more about. That guy will be able to do both.

[wingster55]

I don't know...it seems he just jumped from extremes..from just being in a suit..to just being in a relationship.

"Guys like us don't get the girl"..well now he's not that guy. 

[EmeraldArcher]

Honestly, I was a little confused by where he was headed with the identity resolution. He specifically said "Heroes . . .Which is why I don't need to be one anymore" when he corrected LL's masks comment and turned to address Felicity. I don't know if he meant a hero in Starling, but no longer the Arrow, or not a hero at all (no mask/no mission). Given that driving off into the sunset with Felicity had been his life-sustaining dream, and that he envisioned just the two of them somewhere far away, I felt like he was gladly retiring from being a hero.

Yet, his reference to Felicity's observation that he had become someone else--perhaps a hero who allowed himself to feel something?--confounds any certainty I might have about his intentions. The ending seemed ambiguous because their trip was open-ended--long enough for Felicity to quit her job, but probably not too long because of Thea.

[dtissagirl]

When Oliver told Barry that guys like them don't get the girl, I'm pretty sure the audience wasn't supposed to agree with him. And the very next night of the crossover Barry told Oliver the Arrow's a douche and it's Oliver Queen that inspires people, so even Barry thought the whole ~Forever Alone~ thing was bullshit.

[apinknightmare]

I think he was probably retiring from it at the time he made the decision to leave. I mean, after all he's been through and the fact that he couldn't even be the Arrow if he wanted to, it's not like he had a whole lot of options, and a nice, stress-free life probably sounded pretty good once he realized that there were people who could carry on for him.

I don't think there's been any real identity resolution yet-I'm guessing it'll come next season when he puts his mask on again. All I was saying was that he's taking steps to be the guy who can be a hero and himself at the same time. I mean, the storyline was crap, but that's what I got from it.

[dtissagirl]

I think I need Oliver to have an actual real life job in S4. I'm good with him taking a 5 month vacation sabbatical with Felicity, but it's kind of telling that he *doesn't have anything whatsoever to do* if he can't be the Arrow.

If he had stayed in SC he'd have a five month staycation sabbatical instead.

[apinknightmare]

He really needs to market those island herbs.

[dtissagirl]

He'd make such a good Summer camp counselor, it hurts my heart that he isn't one.

[EmeraldArcher]

I think I need Oliver to have an actual real life job in S4. I'm good with him taking a 5 month vacation sabbatical with Felicity, but it's kind of telling that he *doesn't have anything whatsoever to do* if he can't be the Arrow.

If he had stayed in SC he'd have a five month staycation sabbatical instead.

I think the writers were too narrow-minded when they made the identity issue binary: Oliver vs. Arrow. One of the reasons OQ probably didn't seem like a viable choice was because that person was underprepared for life. He was constantly reminded that he had dropped out of multiple colleges, and he was just as incompetent as a CEO as he was neglectful. Verdant could have been successful, but he treated it only as a cover. His skills simply didn't translate to normal employment opportunities, especially given his lack of degree or other credentials.

Felicity's line in the S2 finale about him needing to get a job was pretty telling, especially because losing his fortune infused risk into most of his choices, which his money used to insulate him from. SA's opinion that Oliver still had a few million dollars was never really confirmed in the show, but that amount couldn't have sustained the mission long term.

And, these are just the practical issues of employment and finances. Add to that him being tragically orphaned, losing Tommy, and coping with Ollie's reputation, it's no wonder he retreated into a persona that was much less vulnerable.

[Chaser]

He'd make such a good Summer camp counselor, it hurts my heart that he isn't one.

S4 opens with Oliver and Felicity settled in at Summer Camp. Oliver teaches archery and all the girls love him and the guys want to be him. Felicity jumps from activity to activity (she is rubbish at everything outdoorsy but no one has the heart to tell her so they humor her and say all the kids fight over her so they move her around). 

[dtissagirl]

I guess it's all tied up into S3 being a season of these people trying to save themselves and their own friends and family. Ra's and Malcolm being villains to Oliver and Thea personally ended up making Oliver's arc this season less about being the city's hero, and more about saving himself/his soul.

One of the ways Oliver's arc didn't work for me was that in 301 he decided I AM ALL ARROW, but by the end of 302 he went "I don't want to die here" and... Hi, that's the entire arc right there. It pretty much ended in his realization that he doesn't wanna die. But they kept it going for another 21 episodes. So they had to repeat the same thing again with his plane crash suicidal plan. Zzzzzzyawn.

I think they need to stop making the villains so personal to Oliver, so that he can have a less self-interested hero's journey for awhile. And giving him a life outside of heroing would also help with giving him people to save that aren't part of Team Arrow.

[kismet]

When Oliver told Barry that guys like them don't get the girl, I'm pretty sure the audience wasn't supposed to agree with him. And the very next night of the crossover Barry told Oliver the Arrow's a douche and it's Oliver Queen that inspires people, so even Barry thought the whole ~Forever Alone~ thing was bullshit.

I believe his exact words in that crossover were "I think that's a bunch of crap" about OQ's trading pieces of his soul and only remaining as the Arrow. It was a very poignant scene. I love it because OQ is getting all deep. And Barry just calls him out on it, which felt very friend like. He didn't discount what OQ was saying, but definitely put a quick end to his wallow. Of course they were interrupted by the mission & Felicity.  I love Barry and wish we could keep him. He gets to OQ in a way the others don't.

[wingster55]

Unfortunately he just called out that Oliver has no light in him..not the "get the girl" part. 

[apinknightmare]

I guess I just don't see why him having a revelation about getting the girl is an issue here. His whole point throughout the season was that he didn't think he could be a hero and a normal guy, and he ended the season being a normal guy. Conflict gone, there was no reason to believe he couldn't be with Felicity anymore. It was a failure of the whole stupid "a man can't live by two names" story line, but that part at least makes sense to me. He didn't think the Arrow could have a girlfriend, and the Arrow doesn't exist anymore, so...

Edited June 18, 2015 by apinknightmare

[wingster55]

Because he didn't realize he could balance it out. Live two lives AND have a girlfriend. So basically his identity crisis isn't really solved. (I do expect that he'll address it in s4 though)

[apinknightmare]

Right. That's the revelation he needs to have - that he can be Oliver and be a hero. He didn't need to have a revelation about being able to be with Felicity, because he removed the obstacle to their relationship: the Arrow. He's just Oliver now, there is no conflict there.

Edited June 18, 2015 by apinknightmare

[wingster55]

Exactly...that's why I said it was extremes. Be the hero with no girl, or get the girl but not be a hero. 

[dtissagirl]

This gives them story fodder, though, which, in no way I think they're competent enough to have saved it for that reason, but it works for me. At some point in early S4 Oliver will go back to hero-ing, and now he's in a committed relationship with Felicity. Will he be able to balance those things now that he tried doing only one at a time?