Endless Supplies of Gas and Other Nitpicks: It Doesn't Make Sense

[DearEvette]

On 11/14/2016 at 2:46 AM, Muffyn said:

Negan could not have teeth that white.  Heck, if they were dentures and he soaked them in bleach every night they wouldn't be that white. They are so damn distracting. 

He probably confiscated everyone's toothpaste.  Yet another reason for Michonne to want to kill him.

Edited November 21, 2016 by DearEvette

[ChromaKelly]

I mentioned it in the episode thread, but I am really bothered by there being an Oceanside community so close to Alexandria, VA. Alexandria is on the Potomac, but not near the Chesapeake Bay, and not anywhere near the ocean. Do TPTB ever look at a map?  It's a city itself, not just a suburb. I know, there's so much other stuff going on it shouldn't bother me. Although that Hilltop community makes me wonder if anyone took up residence at Mt. Vernon.

[AngelaHunter]

On ‎11‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 10:31 AM, ChromaKelly said:

I mentioned it in the episode thread, but I am really bothered by there being an Oceanside community so close to Alexandria, VA. Alexandria is on the Potomac,

Yeah, so I looked it up (God, I need to get a life!) and OUR Alexandria is a "planned community" and not THE Alexandria. Whatever. Call me pedantic, but I still haven't gotten over Daryl eating a worm. There's no way a human being could swallow a worm that's thickly coated in slime, without gagging and throwing up. For some reason, in spite of all the illogical shit we're fed, that bothered me unduly.

[ChromaKelly]

17 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Yeah, so I looked it up (God, I need to get a life!) and OUR Alexandria is a "planned community" and not THE Alexandria. Whatever. Call me pedantic, but I still haven't gotten over Daryl eating a worm. There's no way a human being could swallow a worm that's thickly coated in slime, without gagging and throwing up. For some reason, in spite of all the illogical shit we're fed, that bothered me unduly.

I'm still bothered by Shane shaving his head at the farm while the hot water was running in the shower.  Asshole, stop wasting water and power!

[jvr]

I don't know why it took me so long to click on this thread but it was a fun read. 

I've seen mentions concerning the population being reduced by 90-99% after the ZA in here and in episode threads. I think the scale of death is probably fairly accurate, most probably dying in the first wave of the outbreak when panic was high and no one knew everyone is a infected and just waiting to die to reanimate. The chaos in major cities along the coast ( abt 80% of the worlds population lives near a major city near the sea, half the USAs population is near the coast and within probably 60 miles of a major city) would decimate the overall population in weeks, if not days. I can imagine 6 billion people being reduced to 60 million in a few months, be it an imagined disease like the ZA or a real disease like a new strain of ebola. A few weeks ago I finished reading the book The Hot Zone: The Terrifying True Story of the Origins of the Ebola Virus by Richard Preston, excellent non fiction read and really scientifically scary. Sometimes while reading I was reminded that Hollywood a lot of times steals from real life, the most commonly adapted effects of a zombie disease are remarkably similar to an ebola infection (red eyes, loss of cognitive ability, vacant stares, delirium and aggressive behavior).

Anywho...I said all that to say...does anyone get the feeling that TF is just in the wrong part of the country or world and, yes, their struggle is real but somewhere people are basically living like Pre-ZA times? I think someone had the same thought in a episode thread recently. I feel like in 2 years...2 years...society would have rebooted itself in small clusters (small in a scale of a 100k-200k people). I feel that once the chaos died down (of rapid infection->death->reanimation) any government that still existed (or any social activist type people) would be well on their way to reestablishing world order. Most of the population turned within 30 days? and the rest are now focused (almost exclusively) on survival from the elements (other humans, food, clothing...not worried all that much about the zombies) and this has been going on for what? Over a year now. Maybe I'm overestimating human beings (believe me this is not something I do, I think most people are ignorant fools) or our ability to organize...so I'll be a little more conservative and say within 5 years society would, as we know it, exist again in clusters of a few million people. No? Anyone disagree?

This new society would have already reestablished electrical grids, computer systems, cell phones, police, military, scientist, labs...all up in running and slowly expanding its reach (slowly) and coming into contact with tiny groups like TF and Hilltop, expanding the area that is covered by the reestablished society. If this show doesn't end with a helicopter landing and someone getting out and saying, "Hey, you don't need to revert to barbarians anymore, it's ok...readily available food, water, internet and cell phones is just a hour ride away.", I will be disappointed. You ever seen those videos of helicopters hovering over lost civilizations in the amazon, these people who have had no contact with the outside world, who don't even know that we exist outside their little bubble and are scared of this alien god machine shining a camera on them...thats the scene I imagine for the end of this show.

I also imagine that one of the first items required in this new society (until they find a cure for wtf is going on) would be smart watch type devices (handcuffed on so no removal) that monitor your heartbeat and sounds a loud ass alarm to alert anyone awake or asleep that someone is now dead and will reanimate. First line of defense to stop another rapid infection->death->reanimation on a large scale within the established new society. (:

[Nashville]

On 12/19/2016 at 4:57 PM, jvr said:

A few weeks ago I finished reading the book The Hot Zone: The Terrifying True Story of the Origins of the Ebola Virus by Richard Preston, excellent non fiction read and really scientifically scary. Sometimes while reading I was reminded that Hollywood a lot of times steals from real life, the most commonly adapted effects of a zombie disease are remarkably similar to an ebola infection (red eyes, loss of cognitive ability, vacant stares, delirium and aggressive behavior).

I read that book myself several years ago; I agree, it's a great read.

 

On 12/19/2016 at 4:57 PM, jvr said:

Anywho...I said all that to say...does anyone get the feeling that TF is just in the wrong part of the country or world and, yes, their struggle is real but somewhere people are basically living like Pre-ZA times? 

How?

1. All humans have been exposed to the Z Virus. Even if there was a single geographic point of infection - if Patient Zero was an American, for example - today's rapid global travel system means infected people would have traveled to all continents before the infection implications were realized, or any symptomology manifested.
2. The latent initial ZV is apparently airborne, and extremely contagious.  Nothing else explains how people would die then reanimate without direct contact with existing, already-infected zombies.  This means simple geographic isolation won't cut it.  So long as humans are breathing the air, any isolated hamlet will become a point of infection spread as soon as somebody dies.
3. The only theoretical potential "escapees" would be people who have been continuously living in a plastic bubble, a bio-dome, or Antarctica without direct contact with other humans for a time period longer than the first potential for infection - well over two years.  Even if such people existed, however, their external support systems for clean air/food/water/power wouldn't - not without maintenance by external (infected) personnel, at least.  So even if initial infection was avoided, those "lucky few" would eventually have to come "outside" for maintenance and/or supplies - and, in the process, be exposed and become infected themselves.

About the only people I can see whose post-ZA lives might mirror their pre-ZA lives might be aboriginals such as bushmen in the Kalahari - people whose pre-ZA lives were totally devoid of technological advancement beyond the simplest of manual tools.

 

On 12/19/2016 at 4:57 PM, jvr said:

I think someone had the same thought in a episode thread recently. I feel like in 2 years...2 years...society would have rebooted itself in small clusters (small in a scale of a 100k-200k people). I feel that once the chaos died down (of rapid infection->death->reanimation) any government that still existed (or any social activist type people) would be well on their way to reestablishing world order. Most of the population turned within 30 days? and the rest are now focused (almost exclusively) on survival from the elements (other humans, food, clothing...not worried all that much about the zombies) and this has been going on for what? Over a year now. Maybe I'm overestimating human beings (believe me this is not something I do, I think most people are ignorant fools) or our ability to organize...so I'll be a little more conservative and say within 5 years society would, as we know it, exist again in clusters of a few million people. No? Anyone disagree?

This new society would have already reestablished electrical grids, computer systems, cell phones, police, military, scientist, labs...all up in running and slowly expanding its reach (slowly) and coming into contact with tiny groups like TF and Hilltop, expanding the area that is covered by the reestablished society. If this show doesn't end with a helicopter landing and someone getting out and saying, "Hey, you don't need to revert to barbarians anymore, it's ok...readily available food, water, internet and cell phones is just a hour ride away.", I will be disappointed. You ever seen those videos of helicopters hovering over lost civilizations in the amazon, these people who have had no contact with the outside world, who don't even know that we exist outside their little bubble and are scared of this alien god machine shining a camera on them...thats the scene I imagine for the end of this show.

I also imagine that one of the first items required in this new society (until they find a cure for wtf is going on) would be smart watch type devices (handcuffed on so no removal) that monitor your heartbeat and sounds a loud ass alarm to alert anyone awake or asleep that someone is now dead and will reanimate. First line of defense to stop another rapid infection->death->reanimation on a large scale within the established new society. (:

 

IMHO this would probably be a drastic overestimation of how quickly society would bounce back to pre-ZA levels.

1. Survivors of a global extinction event such as the ZV would be truly random, from all walks of life - focus of this being the majority of survivors would NOT necessarily be proficient in the skills necessary to re-establish technical infrastructure.  Look at the original members of CDB as an illustrative example - a couple of cops (Rick and Shane), an auto mechanic (Jim), a couple of redneck bikers (Daryl and Merle), a city zoning department employee (Jacqui), a lawyer (Andrea), a college a couple of housewives (Lori and Carol), and a pizza delivery guy (Glenn).  Which of these has the technical chops to get a chunk of the power grid turned back on, or get the Internet up and running again?  Point being there's a lot more hairdressers than there are people who know how to keep the local nuclear power plant from scramming - so which do you think there will be more of in the survivor pool if/when an indiscriminate killing plague such as the ZV sweeps through?
2. Given the globalization of our economy and the supply sources necessary to keep it running, no one person is very likely to have ALL the skills necessary to do ALL the required jobs.  An electrical engineer survivor may be able to get a power substation back on-line, for example, if a controller board in the main transformer shorts out; s/he probably won't have either the knowledge and/or available materials to construct a new controller board, however.
3. Last but not least: the global mortality rate may be 90-99% on average, but it's not like a virus or other infectious element is going to follow strict mathematical guidelines and abide by a strict "1 out of every 100" rule set.  There will be areas where the mortality rate will be 100%, balanced in the average by other areas where it may only be 90%.  Why is this important?  Because I think (a) there's a VERY strong likelihood the 100% mortality areas will be the high-density urban population centers, and (b) these urban population centers are also the locations with the highest concentrations of skilled technical and medical talent.  End result being the skilled specialty labor class populations will take a disproportionately greater mortality hit - which will further retard post-ZA society's ability to rebound to its pre-ZA technical proficiency levels.

Rebuilding the technical knowledge base is by no means impossible - but by the same token, it will by no means be instantaneous.    And while the rebuild is in progress the pre-existing technical infrastructure will continue to break down, rust, decompose, etc., which will stretch the recovery timelines even more.  My best guess?  Within 10 years would be a miracle; 20 would be a better guess. 

Which also leads to another question/issue: in 20 years, it probably wouldn't be too far gone to expect a sizable chunk - as much as 50%, maybe? - of the the remaining population to be post-ZA babies.  How (un-)motivated night half the population be to spend huge amounts of time and labor working to recover a life they never knew...?

[jvr]

@Nashville Thanks for taking the time to respond in detail. I don't disagree with much of anything you stated, in my post I talked about most of the population residing around cities but I didn't discuss the brain drain. It was something I thought of but glossed over.* I guess I come at this from the perspective of our collective knowledge isn't lost just because most of the population is dead, we don't need to relearn how to make a wheel or do some experimental kite flying in a storm. Our discoveries (medical, scientific, technologic, etc.) still exist and do not need to be rediscovered just relearned. And you'd be surprised how many of our critical infrastructure people are scattered all over the country, not all of of it near major cities, some in places most of us have never heard of and never want to go. But yes, 5 years is probably (: way too optimistic an estimation. 

When giving it more thought I'd think most of the populations labor would need to go back to being farmers to feed even the 1% of us left. Farming moves society out from hunter gatherer and creates a more stable existence so that you can improve other areas of life. 

Quote

Which also leads to another question/issue: in 20 years, it probably wouldn't be too far gone to expect a sizable chunk - as much as 50%, maybe? - of the the remaining population to be post-ZA babies.  How (un-)motivated night half the population be to spend huge amounts of time and labor working to recover a life they never knew...?

I don't see why not. Every generation has built upon the previous ones to better our way of life. I doubt these new babies would be stagnate and/or be content with whatever life exist like when they reach maturity. I guess your question is, would they be in a hurry to do all the heavy lifting? Maybe not. And whether they would want things to be exactly as they are now, surely not, but they'd probably want to take the best of what we created and implement it asap (and of course their parents aren't all dead and will still be running shit). 

I wont really address what you stated about the virus. Nothing in my post hinted at a belief that everyone isn't infected. We know this and I don't think it matters much anymore (I even theorized on how a society would combat this while they tried to find a cure). As I stated, most people are dead now, the struggle (to me) has moved to how do we live, not how do we avoid the undead. When I stated Pre-ZA I didn't mean people were living somewhere uninfected or unaffected, just that the outcome might not have been as severe or they recovered faster then the areas TF is in.

*This reminded me of the Federal Governments recent direction of pushing agencies out of DC proper. Agencies like the FBI, which has been HQ'd in DC forever, are now being pushed to the "outskirts" of Maryland (cost being a major factor, needing more space). Not far enough to not be in the DMV bubble (and still within the death zone of a ZA type disaster) but making it harder to cripple the entire gov in one fell swoop. Other agencies HQs are being pushed out as far as West Virginia (so sorry dudes). Places like DOE (nuclear) will probably be stationed in nowhere middle America soon. In this new technologically advanced world some people, yes, do need to be in the immediate area of the Nations Capital, but most of the workforce and brain power can be scattered far and wide. This also reminded me of the fact that a small power outage in SW DC last year somehow affected both the State Department and the White House, like, why the fuck are you on the same power grid as I am? We are not prepared! lol

[Nashville]

On 12/27/2016 at 6:20 PM, jvr said:

I guess I come at this from the perspective of our collective knowledge isn't lost just because most of the population is dead, we don't need to relearn how to make a wheel or do some experimental kite flying in a storm. Our discoveries (medical, scientific, technologic, etc.) still exist and do not need to be rediscovered just relearned.

I totally agree with this concept.  One major wrinkle will be a crippling lack of educational opportunities, however, especially for the more specialized technical skill sets:

• Colleges and universities won't exist in their current form for a very very long time.  Educators will be in very short supply - largely because of death, but also because surviving qualified teachers/professors will be way too busy working to meet their survival/subsistence needs to be spending much time in classrooms.
• The focus of so much of today's education systems has been transferred away from books to computer-based education and training - which is great until the power goes off.  I don't make this observation idly.  My youngest daughter just finished up getting her Masters degree this past summer, and over the past 6 years I was truly surprised at how many of her classes no longer even used paper-based textbooks - over half her classes had switched to PDFs and eBooks on tablets as their primary medium.  This creates quite the tidy little Catch-22, as a matter of fact; how does a neophyte learn how to restore the power grid when the educational information to do so is based in electronic media? 
• What is the primary requirement of education?  The answer is time - time to read educational material, analyze it, understand it, etc.  A "new" post-ZA society would - in the early years at least - be almost exclusively focused on conversion to an agrarian/hunter-gatherer model, both of which are extremely time-consuming. 

 

On 12/27/2016 at 6:20 PM, jvr said:

And you'd be surprised how many of our critical infrastructure people are scattered all over the country, not all of of it near major cities, some in places most of us have never heard of and never want to go.

Not really; I'm one of them.  :D  By the same token, though, those scattered telecommuters will in all probability be both geographically and technologically marooned far from their agencies' physical work sites if/when the communications and transportation systems break down.

 

On 12/27/2016 at 6:20 PM, jvr said:

*This reminded me of the Federal Governments recent direction of pushing agencies out of DC proper. Agencies like the FBI, which has been HQ'd in DC forever, are now being pushed to the "outskirts" of Maryland (cost being a major factor, needing more space). Not far enough to not be in the DMV bubble (and still within the death zone of a ZA type disaster) but making it harder to cripple the entire gov in one fell swoop. Other agencies HQs are being pushed out as far as West Virginia (so sorry dudes). Places like DOE (nuclear) will probably be stationed in nowhere middle America soon. In this new technologically advanced world some people, yes, do need to be in the immediate area of the Nations Capital, but most of the workforce and brain power can be scattered far and wide. This also reminded me of the fact that a small power outage in SW DC last year somehow affected both the State Department and the White House, like, why the fuck are you on the same power grid as I am? We are not prepared! lol

Yep; I helped develop some of the disaster preparedness and COOP (continuity of operations) plans for my agency, and geographical dispersal is a key factor to prevent backup operations sites from being encapsulated in the same strike zone as the offices for which they are intended to provide backup.  Most of those plans are predicated on the assumption of disasters of varying localized scope, however, and would be of limited effectiveness in the face of a disaster of nationally uniform impact.

[Mick Lady]

On ‎2‎/‎13‎/‎2015 at 8:49 PM, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

 

Season Six Tara = Cousin It's long lost... er, cousin.

 

 

And as a dude, I'm frigging jealous of the amount of leg hair she's sportin'!  She could probly spark off a fire with enough friction there.

I know I'm reviving a thread, but I have to say, the one and only befit of Chemo (Besides killing cancer of course) is that my leg hair never grew back! (or my pubis hair!) You have no idea (But, you probably do, thinking of it) how much easier it makes showers and just general maintenance!

Edited February 7, 2017 by Mick Lady

[Mick Lady]

As long as I'm posting, I agree about books! I always carry one with me, because, you never know. Right now it's "The Portable Dorothy Parker" Man does not live....

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I've brought this up in general in the past, but its just beyond stupid to see Rick sweat literally gallons of moisture every time he's in an episode - sometimes more than once - but never has dehydration problems.  He literally has 'still in the shower' drops of water running off his hair during times of exertion, but the loss of all that water and hydration never impairs him or his overpowered badassness in the slightest.

He must be drinking a reservoir's worth of water & liquids, every couple of hours, when he's not on-screen.

[CletusMusashi]

Coral keeps a giant flask of Gatorade under his hat, sort of like a Saint Bernard.

[Dobian]

On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 4:20 PM, jvr said:

*This reminded me of the Federal Governments recent direction of pushing agencies out of DC proper. Agencies like the FBI, which has been HQ'd in DC forever, are now being pushed to the "outskirts" of Maryland (cost being a major factor, needing more space). Not far enough to not be in the DMV bubble (and still within the death zone of a ZA type disaster) but making it harder to cripple the entire gov in one fell swoop. Other agencies HQs are being pushed out as far as West Virginia (so sorry dudes). Places like DOE (nuclear) will probably be stationed in nowhere middle America soon. In this new technologically advanced world some people, yes, do need to be in the immediate area of the Nations Capital, but most of the workforce and brain power can be scattered far and wide. This also reminded me of the fact that a small power outage in SW DC last year somehow affected both the State Department and the White House, like, why the fuck are you on the same power grid as I am? We are not prepared! lol

It's not just Federal agencies, the military industrial complex would be perfectly situated in a ZA.  Bases in semi-remote locations all across the country that are fully armed, defended, tons of supplies and equipment, food, power, communications, land and air vehicles.  They would establish quarantine protocols to minimize infection spread in the event someone dies by any means.  They would be out of the way so zombie hordes on their doorstep would be highly unlikely, but even so, they would easily wipe them out with their firepower.  They would very easily coordinate with each other to thin out the zombie population to where it would be very manageable.  Not to mention they would very quickly eradicate groups like Terminus and the Saviors as they came across them.  In short order they would establish a ZA Marshall Plan to rebuild the country.  None of this is represented in TWD, the military just ceases to exist.  And there is no explanation at all as to why they don't exist.

[Nashville]

8 hours ago, Dobian said:

It's not just Federal agencies, the military industrial complex would be perfectly situated in a ZA.  Bases in semi-remote locations all across the country that are fully armed, defended, tons of supplies and equipment, food, power, communications, land and air vehicles.  They would establish quarantine protocols to minimize infection spread in the event someone dies by any means.  They would be out of the way so zombie hordes on their doorstep would be highly unlikely, but even so, they would easily wipe them out with their firepower.  They would very easily coordinate with each other to thin out the zombie population to where it would be very manageable.  Not to mention they would very quickly eradicate groups like Terminus and the Saviors as they came across them.  In short order they would establish a ZA Marshall Plan to rebuild the country.  None of this is represented in TWD, the military just ceases to exist.  And there is no explanation at all as to why they don't exist.

TWD has touched very lightly on the military's role in the ZA - referencing military action in/against Atlanta, and alluding to ultimately futile National Guard attempts to control the zombie outbreak (the NG troops who deposited survivors at Alexandria and never returned).  Much of this omission is due simply to the series' timing - the story primarily starts with the lead protagonist's emergence from a coma well after the nation's societal collapse.  FTWD explored the military role a little further - but not by much, and in a very pessimistic light.  FTWD did, however, manage (almost in spite of itself) to illuminate some adversarial issues with which the military would have to contend:

• The attrition factor.  Death and injury will reduce the military, and no formal recruitment process means no replenishment of the ranks.  The zombie factor introduces a couple of added dimensions as well, as every zombie-injured and dead soldier will inevitably become a member of the danger against which they defend - simultaneously diminishing defender numbers and swelling those of the enemy.  Quarantine protocols may be successful to a degree, but much of that success (or lack thereof) depends on the very nature of those protocols.  If the quarantine response to every infection is a bullet to the head, then zombie-injured soldiers will hide their wounds - only to die, turn in the night, and attack their former brothers in arms - which will further accelerate and exacerbate the problem.
• The temptation to turn to scorched-earth policies.  Policies like the firebombing of Atlanta - and LA - and San Diego - and by report every major city up to the continental divide.  Policies like the use of lethal force against citizens for civil infractions.  Such policies distract from the true goal (dealing with the root cause for all those pesky zombies) and foment dissension within the ranks - because face it, it's entirely possible some of the ground troops might have a wee bit of a problem with killing scores of their fellow citizens.

[Dobian]

Right Nashville, but that doesn't explain the essential non-existence of the military in the TWD timeline after the first season.  This is by far the best equipped and supplied force in the world, not to mention the best trained both in combat and survival.  Their attrition rate would be exponentially less than the general population.  Shambling zombies aren't going to break into Sherman tanks or reach hovering helicopters.  They aren't going to bust into heavily defended bases.  Injuries from zombies would be extremely low.  These are enemies who are mindless husks, there is no strategy to defeat them.  We're not talking fighting VC in the jungle here while keeping an eye out for land mines and booby traps.  These are pros, and to say they are no longer around while a group of yahoos like the Saviors or the Kingdom or the Junkyard Dogs - who are infinitely inferior on every possible level - are running their little fiefdoms, is kind of absurd to me.  Sorry, there aren't any Navy Seals or Green Berets left, but Negan is sauntering around with his baseball bat?  Uh...no.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Dobian

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

Right Nashville, but that doesn't explain the essential non-existence of the military in the TWD timeline after the first season.  This is by far the best equipped and supplied force in the world, not to mention the best trained both in combat and survival.  Their attrition rate would be exponentially less than the general population.  Shambling zombies aren't going to break into Sherman tanks or reach hovering helicopters.  They aren't going to bust into heavily defended bases.  Injuries from zombies would be extremely low.  These are enemies who are mindless husks, there is no strategy to defeat them.  We're not talking fighting VC in the jungle here while keeping an eye out for land mines and booby traps.  These are pros, and to say they are no longer around while a group of yahoos like the Saviors or the Kingdom or the Junkyard Dogs - who are infinitely inferior on every possible level - are running their little fiefdoms, is kind of absurd to me.  Sorry, there aren't any Navy Seals or Green Berets left, but Negan is sauntering around with his baseball bat?  Uh...no.

By no means do I think the military is totally nonexistent - but it may be simply that they aren't around here. :)

You raise some excellent points; allow me in kind to postulate some modifying factors:

• I agree their attrition rate would probably be less than the general population, but it would by no means by nonexistent.  And as far as how much less, I don't know that it would necessarily be exponentially less for one simple reason: soldiers have a marked tendency to put themselves in harm's way to protect others.  Kind of like firemen and burning buildings, they tend to go toward danger when a civilian's sense of self-preservation says to run away from it.  So their exposure to dangerous, injurious, even lethal interaction will be significantly higher.
• Shambling zombies don't have to break into Sherman tanks or reach hovering helicopters - they just have to be around in significant numbers when the tanks and choppers run out of fuel.  At that point the soldiers are in a siege situation, and in such a situation the zombies have a massive advantage because exhaustion of food/water/ammunition reserves is simply not an issue for them.  A siege is a waiting game - and can't no one beat a zombie for just hanging around indefinitely.
• Zombies don't have strategy - but they do have numbers.  Doesn't matter if your elite fighting team can outkill them 1000-to-1, if they outnumber you 5000-to-1.
• Zombies also have another advantage that humans don't; even extreme injury does not incapacitate them, or necessarily slow them down very much.  Flamethrowers, booby traps, automatic weapons, - all of minimized effect, unless you're scoring headshots with every hit.  Punji sticks?  You're lucky if they even slow a zombie down.  Blow off their legs with a land mine?  Fine - they'll crawl on their elbows.  Different tactics would be required - and while there's little doubt those tactics would be developed, the zombies would have a material advantage until the tactics are adapted to the new situation and communicated to the front line.
• No, zombies aren't likely to break the defenses of heavily defended military bases.  By the same token, though, the soldiers would only be safe if they stayed inside those walls - and if the military is not coming outside, then they won't be cognizant of such groups as the Saviors.

Please don't think I'm saying our military would be a pushover for a zombie horde, because I'm not.  What I am saying is (a) our military's training would not initially be geared toward a threat like the ZA, and (b) losses - possibly significant to the point of debilitating individual units - would be incurred while navigating the resultant learning curve.

P.S.: In reality my money would be on the military.  TWD, however, isn't reality.  It comes from Kirkman's mind, so not even close.  :>

[Dobian]

I can't see a fighting force run out of fuel.  Military operations run detailed logistics and tactics.  A team travelling, say fifty miles from their base to an urban population center would have five hundred miles worth of fuel, and would set up mobile bases along the way to resupply.  Communication lines are a must, of course.  I can't see them engaging zombies in any kind of melee combat either, at least not until they have eradicated the big herds and just have the stragglers left inside buildings.  This isn't Rick and Michonne sticking zombies with knives and slicing their heads off with machetes.  They would take them out ninety-nine percent of the time at range.  And send guys with body armor into buildings so they can't get bitten.  I could see a small heavily armed force easily wiping out ten thousand zombies in a single day with conventional weapons.  Even if they didn't out-and-out kill them all, the rest would by laying there in heaps totally harmless while the military finishes them off.  The possibility of anyone dying on a base for whatever reason would need to be looked out for.  24/7 surveillance to ensure they are put down before they can rise up as a zombie.  I agree with you that there would be some screw-ups in the early going, but I'm confident that after they regrouped and started planning things logically, it would become a cake walk.  The beauty of this situation would be that this isn't an intelligent enemy where time is of the essence because they are plotting their counter-attack while you're sitting in your safe zone.  I agree about Kirkman, he doesn't think through any of this, and not just this, but even how people would live in the ZA.  He's pretty awful at writing and even the ZA isn't an original idea, so his massive success with TWD is a little bit annoying.  TWD could be so much better.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Dobian

[enoughcats]

On 3/31/2014 at 11:03 PM, bravelittletoaster said:

I don't think humans would be gamey

Not exactly human, but related.

A friend did scientific field work in the jungles of southeast Asia.  The field crew was self sufficient.

He said you could always tell when their hunters had only been able to kill monkeys because the cook would use every spice at his disposal to hide the taste. 

[Obi]

Preposterous Evolutionary Zombie logic (Run ‘em over)

I find it ridiculous that the surviving humans are not using more machinery. Vehicles in particular. I understand gas is no longer ripe, but with the kind of machine-centric society we’re living in, there is no doubt in my mind that people would still be using motorized vehicles deep into a zombie apocalypse. Refining methods, or the complete reengineering of current vehicles in isolated corners of the zombie world. I understand that motors can be loud and therefore appear as an impractical option for some, but the benefits outweigh the cons, distance covered in a capable vehicle far outmatches the capabilities of any other form of transportation, assuming fuel posts are put in place and supplied which would be a practical approach to outreach and growth. It would be the  Wild West for many years, but wouldn’t it be an awesome spectacle for the screen. ‘Governing forces’ in the show would be far more powerful and excitingly competent if they expanded through the re-colonization of their land from the clinging grasp of the walking dead… with the use of brute force machinery. Is this logic sound? Perhaps the localized nature of the show is more appealing than my expansionist ‘mad max’ take on the zombie apocalypse. Let me know.