Elizabeth Webber: Forever The Manipulative Miss Or Adorable Angel?

[melody16]

I don't know if the show has painted Jason as Elizabeth's greatest love. I think arguably Liz never loved anyone the way she loved Lucky before he "died" in the fire. Her "love" for Jason isn't really love imo, and I say this as someone that liked old school liason. 

Also this is prob a weird opinion, but it sucks that they messed up Liz and Jason so much because while I didn't think BH and BM had romantic chem, I think they could have had pretty strong friend chemistry. I liked their scene before Sabrina's funeral a lot.

[HeatLifer]

3 minutes ago, melody16 said:

Also this is prob a weird opinion, but it sucks that they messed up Liz and Jason so much

That's not a weird opinion at all. Frank/Ron ruined Liason's friendship. And for no reason. To once again put her in-between JaSam for drama.

[Bringonthedrama]

55 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

And this is what bugs me about Liz/Lucky. According to the show, Nik is the best sex she ever had and Jason is her greatest love. Who is Lucky to her? And we can fanwank all we want (and I'm not saying that in a disrespectful way bc I'm including myself in the "we"), but it doesn't change what this show has presented for years and years.

I thought it was presented as the most intense sex, unless I missed a line where she actually said "best." I remember a Liz-Robin scene in Liz's house, they were talking about the affair. Liz seemed to describe sex with Nikolas as a drug high, whereas Lucky was sweet/gentle. 

Jason has labeled by the show, Liz, or Franco as the love of her life when Jason is present in Port Charles and JJ's Lucky is not ... also when the lazy writers want a competition obstacle in the great love relationship they are creating (or re-building) for Jason at the time with a woman. 

TPTB can say what they want about Liz and Lucky, but there was definite longing about what could have been/lost love in their brief scenes when JJ returned for Geary's retirement exit storyline.

[HeatLifer]

4 minutes ago, Bringonthedrama said:

TPTB can say what they want about Liz and Lucky, but there was definite longing about what could have been/lost love in their brief scenes when JJ returned for Geary's retirement exit storyline.

I felt like it was presented like Lucky wanted to be there for Liz and the kids, but felt like he couldn't for whatever reason. "The darkness." Then when he saw Jason/Liz/Jake through the window, he saw that they were happy, and didn't want to mess that up. 

LOL @ this exchange between Nik/Lucky.

Lucky: Jason can finally be the man that Elizabeth always wanted him to be.

Nik: He can, if he doesn't remember that he's Jason.

[ulkis]

Lucky needs to have custody of his kids half the year. The other two have not been seen in ages anyway, and with Liz dating Franco Lucky's The Darkess is in tatters.

[HeatLifer]

9 minutes ago, ulkis said:

Lucky needs to have custody of his kids half the year. The other two have not been seen in ages anyway, and with Liz dating Franco Lucky's The Darkess is in tatters.

This was always my issue with the kids. They're rarely seen! So why can't they be with their off-screen mothers or fathers?

[Bringonthedrama]

31 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

This was always my issue with the kids. They're rarely seen! So why can't they be with their off-screen mothers or fathers?

In contrast to Jax's home in Australia (where Josslyn visits),  Lucky's supposedly "wandering" to fight "the darkness inside." So he doesn't have a home for the kids to come to for visits.  Also, there's the sensitive matter that Lucky is technically the father of all three boys (despite us getting hit over the head repeatedly about Jason being Jake's dad).  Lucky is on Jake's birth certificate as the legal father, since Lucky and Liz were married at the time of his birth. Lucky raised Jake until shortly before his 4th b-day (when Luke ran over him).  Right after Jake returned, he said his dad Lucky had to go away, his dad Jason died - that's the last time Lucky was acknowledged in reference to Jake.  Also, as far as I know, Jason has not said or done anything about maintaining a relationship with Cam and Aiden as well. I hate the emphasis on Jason and Jake's relationship, whereas the other two boys get ignored because Lucky is wherever and they're not Jason's bio kids.  When Jason got ticked off at Franco that Elizabeth got injured the night before but "I'm just hearing about this now", I thought well, Lucky should have been tracked down/called immediately since he's her actual ex-husband and father of her children.

I think the last time all three boys were seen was Elizabeth and Jake Doe's 2015 wedding day-that-wasn't?

[Oracle42]

But the wandering around/Darkness horseshit was RC and I'm fine with ignoring it/ moving past it because Helena/Reasons *commercial break*. I think the  writers have this image of Liz as a hard-working, single mother with 3 kid's, and having a functional co-parenting relationship with their father is unfathomable for some reason

Edited September 28, 2016 by Oracle42

[KerleyQ]

8 hours ago, Oracle42 said:

But the wandering around/Darkness horseshit was RC and I'm fine with ignoring it/ moving past it because Helena/Reasons *commercial break*. I think the  writers have this image of Liz as a hard-working, single mother with 3 kids and having a functional co-parenting relationship with their father is unfathomable for some reason

That, and I think they have this thing about Lucky being Luke's son, so he's got to be this wanderer with issues instead of a responsible, settled down adult father to his children.  

[ulkis]

14 minutes ago, KerleyQ said:

That, and I think they have this thing about Lucky being Luke's son, so he's got to be this wanderer with issues instead of a responsible, settled down adult father to his children.  

Only when JJ is in the role, of course.  And yes, I blame TG, cause JJ buckled against that shit.

[dubbel zout]

I don't mind Lucky having a bit of wanderlust, but this deadbeat dad stuff is so, so wrong. I hate that the show tried to change Luke becoming a father as something he didn't want and resented. There's nothing further from the truth. 

[Oracle42]

And Lucky adored  his childhood. Even if he was wandering, I think he'd take his kids on summer adventures and Liz would let him because she knows he's a good father.

Plus, it's a much better way to provide Liz with the opportunity to have a love story that isn't primarily about being a mother. 

[Oracle42]

[Super random] since Danny and Aiden are now the same age, I kinda want them to be best friends who run around playing dumb, little kid pranks on Cameron (who should be a teen-ager). [/sr]

That's mostly because I think Aiden is adorable and I'm super tired of Jake. I don't necessarily want to see it, I'd just like to know that the rest of them are doing normal kid crap while Mason Jorgan is befriending sociopaths.

Can you tell that I'm bored by the current stories?

Edited September 28, 2016 by Oracle42
Frikkin spellcheck

[Princess Kelbop]

22 hours ago, KerleyQ said:

But, I'm such a sucker for BH/JJ that, if he does come back whenever this shitfest ends, I'll forgive pretty much anything if we just get a decent chunk of time devoted to the two of them reuniting and getting past all of their shit.  I don't even care.  

This is how I feel about Liz and Ric, then AND now (I know, I know *handwave*), which is why dumping them for Liz and Jason--which was utterly doomed from the start--was such a bitter pill to swallow. If Ric and Liz are not going to be together, at least have it be because she's found someone else who is really good for her or she's growing as a person or something. But they were sacrificed for nothing-- Liz and Jason were never going to work, it couldn't ever last. They further destroyed Ric's character to break them up and destroyed Liz's character after that. So now she's in this weird limbo where she somehow believes she's too good for Ric--someone she has a lot of history with, who was THERE and wants HER AND HER KIDS--but is not too good for Franco, who has done real bad stuff to lots of people INCLUDING her kids. And I don't hate Franco as much as a lot of folks do, but if she can justify being with him then she can justify being with Ric FFS.  

Edited September 29, 2016 by Princess Kelbop

[UYI]

LL2's instrumental theme from the late 90's:

[Melgaypet]

*is dead from feelings*

Not fair, UYI, not fair at all. Do I poke you in your M&G feels?

[HeatLifer]

No one ever loved her like he did. I CAN'T HANDLE THESE EMOTIONS.

[Oracle42]

Shut up! I'm not crying, you're crying

[Melgaypet]

Damn all of you for sending me on an LL2 binge. Here, Lucky comes from being incredibly cruel to Laura, but makes me feel for him anyway, because of Jonathan Jackson, but also because of Elizabeth, who may have been the wisest person in the whole painful scenario:

[HeatLifer]

Liz: Were you happy to see her?

Lucky: She's my mother.

JJ had about 20 different emotions in his eyes and tone delivering that sentence. I miss him. 

[Melgaypet]

GH's loss (didn't they do a bait-and-switch with JJ, promising a LL2 reunion?) is Nashville's gain. I am an idiot, so I still snigger over Lucky Spencer being married to Sarah Roberts. JJ totally has chemistry with Hayden Whatsherface. Just like he had chemistry with Becky and Kristen Storms and the women who played Maya Ward and Claire the DA and Lucky Charms Siobhan (I'm one of those who liked her at the time, though hindsight tells me that she was ridiculous.)

[HeatLifer]

37 minutes ago, Melgaypet said:

didn't they do a bait-and-switch with JJ, promising a LL2 reunion

Wait, they promised him or did he just assume?

[Melgaypet]

Pretty sure they promised him. Or at least that was what I remember hearing. Don't take Drunk!Melgaypet for an unimpeachable source, but that is my honest recollection.

[LeftPhalange]

Setting aside the fact that I have negative zero uses for Liz, one of the big reasons why I wasn't a fan of her and Lucky's reunion was because they went through a lot of shit (Liz being a surrogate for Jax and the miscarriage, Lucky becoming addicted to pills and cheating, Liz having sex with Jason, Liz getting pregnant and lying about the paternity while making sure the baby had Jason's initials) and little of it was properly addressed and dealt with. And since then even more stuff has happened that was never fully dealt (Liz cheating with Nik, Aidan's paternity, Jake dying, Liz's obsession with Jason).

The only way I could ever find a way to accept Lucky ending up with Liz is if the writers spent a good long while having them work through all of their issues and rebuilding their relationship, and if Liz FINALLY let let Jason go (and toned down the self-righteousness and bitchface). Unfortunately, given what this show has become and who is writing it, I highly doubt any of that would happen. They'd probably just get a quick cheap reunion like Patrick and Robin did, which their fans would accept, I guess, but it wouldn't do anything to appeal to those of us who are indifferent towards them. 

Edited September 29, 2016 by LeftPhalange

[HeatLifer]

2 hours ago, LeftPhalange said:

They'd probably just get a quick cheap reunion like Patrick and Robin did, which their fans would accept, I guess, but it wouldn't do anything to appeal to those of us who are indifferent towards them. 

I don't think the Scrubs comparison is the right one, which was a special circumstance where both actors were there together for a limited time and then left. And, also, one quit and went to a rival soap, so trust me, Frank didn't give a shit. 

I actually agree with you in terms of Liz/Lucky. I think too much has happened and the Jason thing is a dealbreaker bc this show has spent too much time presenting him as the most important love to Liz. I don't think any writing would make me feel better about what has happened over the years.

But, TBH, these types of HEA reunions, which are rare, aren't for people who are indifferent. They ARE for the fans. They're not written so suddenly everyone loves and understands X pairing. 

Edited September 29, 2016 by HeatLifer

[LeftPhalange]

10 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

I don't think the Scrubs comparison is the right one, which was a special circumstance where both actors were there together for a limited time and then left. And, also, one quit and went to a rival soap, so trust me, Frank didn't give a shit. 

But, TBH, these types of HEA reunions, which are rare, aren't for people who are indifferent. They ARE for the fans. They're not written so suddenly everyone loves and understands X pairing. 

If Liz and Lucky ever got back together it would probably be because the show got cancelled and JJ decided to come back, which means the reunion would probably be rushed. Maybe not as bad as Patrick and Robin, but still rushed.

It's not about me all of a sudden falling in love with Liz and Lucky. I don't need that. But I expect decent writing that follows basic storytelling principles, regardless of how I feel about the particular pairing/story/characters involved, and this show is no longer capable of providing that.

[HeatLifer]

8 minutes ago, LeftPhalange said:

If Liz and Lucky ever got back together it would probably be because the show got cancelled and JJ decided to come back, which means the reunion would probably be rushed. Maybe not as bad as Patrick and Robin, but still rushed.

It's not about me all of a sudden falling in love with Liz and Lucky. I don't need that. But I expect decent writing that follows basic storytelling principles, regardless of how I feel about the particular pairing/story/characters involved, and this show is no longer capable of providing that.

My point is, I think the writers would CARE about Liz/Lucky and TRY writing for them if they had the chance. Because, like you said, the show would be ending. It wouldn't be "Becky quit and is going to B&B, so whatever." It being rushed or how many episodes they had to do it is another story. But in terms of them attempting to write a decent story? I think they would. Who knows if that would be accomplished at the end of the day or if it would be satisfying.

Of course, I still think there's too much that happened between Liz/Lucky for writing to save it at all, but the attempts would be there, IMO.

[Oracle42]

29 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

the Jason thing is a dealbreaker bc this show has spent too much time presenting him as the most important love to Liz.

As bad as this story with Jason was, I think it did paint Jason as a fixation instead of a healthy relationship. Which actually could have been useful if there was going to be a Liz/Lucky reunion or even in terms of letting Liz move on. Because if he wasn't the "most important love to Liz" - if it was about some other issue, then she gets to resolve that issue and move on. But the "writers" completely failed at any kind of follow up and now she's dating Franco, so........

[UYI]

14 hours ago, Melgaypet said:

*is dead from feelings*

Not fair, UYI, not fair at all. Do I poke you in your M&G feels?

Well, as of last night, yes. :P

[HeatLifer]

4 minutes ago, Oracle42 said:

As bad as this story with Jason was, I think it did paint Jason as a fixation instead of a healthy relationship.

This show also painted Liz/Lucky that way and claimed they were toxic to each other and like a drug addiction.

But, to me, Liz still hasn't had a proper revelation about Jason. He's still the "one who got away" and she should have been his HEA.

[Melgaypet]

3 minutes ago, Oracle42 said:

As bad as this story with Jason was, I think it did paint Jason as a fixation instead of a healthy relationship. Which actually could have been useful if there was going to be a Liz/Lucky reunion or even in terms of letting Liz move on. Because if he wasn't the "most important love to Liz" - if it was about some other issue, then she gets to resolve that issue and move on. But the "writers" completely failed at any kind of follow up and now she's dating Franco, so........

I agree. Even setting aside my LL2 bias, I can't buy that Jason was her greatest love - they have never actually been in a relationship! Jason has largely been a fantasy to her, or as Oracle says, a fixation. She's certainly not his greatest love.

1 minute ago, UYI said:

Well, as of last night, yes. :P

Well, now you know why!

[HeatLifer]

4 minutes ago, Melgaypet said:

I can't buy that Jason was her greatest love - they have never actually been in a relationship!

I don't buy it either, trust me. But I also can't deny how this show has chosen to write Liz in terms of Jason. For example, if Jason divorced Sam and wanted to be with Liz, do you think Liz would say no? Solely going by how this character has been written, I'd feel comfortable saying she would still want him. 

[LeftPhalange]

38 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

I don't buy it either, trust me. But I also can't deny how this show has chosen to write Liz in terms of Jason. For example, if Jason divorced Sam and wanted to be with Liz, do you think Liz would say no? Solely going by how this character has been written, I'd feel comfortable saying she would still want him. 

She would propose to him before the divorce was even finalized. 

[dubbel zout]

I think with BM's Jason, now that he seems out of the mob stuff, Liz might say yes. But given that the main reason SBu's Jason didn't publicly acknowledge he was Jake's dad (the worst kept secret in PC, but whatever) was that he had a dangerous life, I don't think it's wrong to believe she would have said no to him.

This kind of thing is why the show needs to address the personality change in BM's Jason.

[Melgaypet]

41 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

I don't buy it either, trust me. But I also can't deny how this show has chosen to write Liz in terms of Jason. For example, if Jason divorced Sam and wanted to be with Liz, do you think Liz would say no? Solely going by how this character has been written, I'd feel comfortable saying she would still want him. 

I don't disagree. She probably would say yes. But I don't think Liz loves Jason. I think, in the beginning, she mentally cast him as a Lucky-substitute (and I think he kinda made her a Robin-substitute) and in the years since, she's built up a fantasy in her head of a life with Jason that never was and the show refuses to let her let it go. IMO, an actual relationship between them would never work.

Or maybe I should say, it wouldn't have worked with Burton's Jason. I can't see Liz as the wife of a hitman. Even setting aside the gigantic issue of her kids' safety, she was always in denial about that side of him and she'd have to confront it at some point. I don't think she'd be able to get past it. Or she wouldn't, if she was written carefully and in-character, which...yeah. 

[HeatLifer]

3 minutes ago, Melgaypet said:

she's built up a fantasy in her head of a life with Jason that never was and the show refuses to let her let it go. IMO, an actual relationship between them would never work.

Yep. But the show won't allow her to acknowledge this and officially move on.

16 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

This kind of thing is why the show needs to address the personality change in BM's Jason.

How the story should have gone, and loads will disagree bc it's always a JaSam/Liason thing, but the fact is, BM's Jason and Sam should have a hell of a lot more conflict and time to understand each other. That's not the Jason she loved in any way. And it was always an interesting angle to have Jason not want to have anything to do with the mob. Because that was always the excuse as to why Liason couldn't work; he didn't want to put her or her kids in danger. So how does that relationship change if he's no longer a killer?

[Oracle42]

33 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I think with BM's Jason, now that he seems out of the mob stuff, Liz might say yes. But given that the main reason SBu's Jason didn't publicly acknowledge he was Jake's dad (the worst kept secret in PC, but whatever) was that he had a dangerous life, I don't think it's wrong to believe she would have said no to him.

She wanted SBuJason before he died; that was why she falsified Danny's maternity results. And when she was dating BMJason, she sent her children away when she thought there was going to be a mob war because she didn't want to lose him

Edited September 29, 2016 by Oracle42

[Bringonthedrama]

26 minutes ago, Melgaypet said:

I don't disagree. She probably would say yes. But I don't think Liz loves Jason. I think, in the beginning, she mentally cast him as a Lucky-substitute (and I think he kinda made her a Robin-substitute) and in the years since, she's built up a fantasy in her head of a life with Jason that never was and the show refuses to let her let it go. IMO, an actual relationship between them would never work.

I agree - she admitted that being married to him was a fantasy, when she and Jason were trapped in the elevator (Jake pregnancy) and she confessed to him that he was the father. There have been times when she let it go, but then when she's at a low point in her life and feeling alone, she longs for what she believes could have been for her and Jason. She was still in a sad downward spiral after losing Jake when she messed with Danny's test results, and  acknowledged feeling alone/being unhappy in a scene with Monica in Jake Doe's room when "Jake Doe" was still unconscious.  

[Darklazr]

On 9/27/2016 at 6:42 PM, HeatLifer said:

And this is what bugs me about Liz/Lucky. According to the show, Nik is the best sex she ever had and Jason is her greatest love. Who is Lucky to her? And we can fanwank all we want (and I'm not saying that in a disrespectful way bc I'm including myself in the "we"), but it doesn't change what this show has presented for years and years.

Elizabeth and Lucky as first loves worked, but that all died the second JJ left the show and recasts with JY & GV trashed the original couple.  GV looked too old as Lucky and JY's yelling was hard to swallow.   Guza wrote JJ's 2009 Lucky like the other two actors never played the roles for the entire time he was gone.

[Darklazr]

On 9/29/2016 at 10:29 AM, Melgaypet said:

I don't disagree. She probably would say yes. But I don't think Liz loves Jason. I think, in the beginning, she mentally cast him as a Lucky-substitute (and I think he kinda made her a Robin-substitute) and in the years since, she's built up a fantasy in her head of a life with Jason that never was and the show refuses to let her let it go. IMO, an actual relationship between them would never work.

Or maybe I should say, it wouldn't have worked with Burton's Jason. I can't see Liz as the wife of a hitman. Even setting aside the gigantic issue of her kids' safety, she was always in denial about that side of him and she'd have to confront it at some point. I don't think she'd be able to get past it. Or she wouldn't, if she was written carefully and in-character, which...yeah. 

I disagree.  The show was planning on Elizabeth and Nik, but there was way too much chemistry between Elizabeth and Jason.  Elizabeth and Jason became friends after Lucky died and AJ won custody of Michael.  We had two people that mourned separate losses, became friends and then "more than friends." Elizabeth grew up after Lucky died and his return from the dead pushed her back toward her teenage "first love".  Elizabeth was now a grown woman and Jason were both interested in each other, but SBu's back and forth from the show followed by Frons' hardon for Courtney and Sam ended whatever plans Guza had for Liason in 2002 and onward.  

The only way LnL2 would have worked, was for JJ's character to have been held captive from 1999 until 2009 and the other two Lucky's were brainwashed minions from Helena and Faison.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Darklazr

[Darklazr]

The reality is backstage agenda beginning with Brian Frons is the ONLY reason Elizabeth and Jason were constantly yanked for Jason/Courtney and Jason/Sam.  The same type of backstage shit happened when RC, FV and Varni took over the show.  Otherwise, why trash Elizabeth and Nik last year in order to reunite JaSam and to get rid of BH and TC? 

[HeatLifer]

5 minutes ago, Darklazr said:

SBu's back and forth from the show followed by Frons' hardon for Courtney and Sam ended whatever plans Guza had for Liason in 2002 and onward.  

Liason happened in the first place because of actors' departures. I don't know if the show was ever serious about them for whatever reason. They always got distracted by other female love interests for Jason and used Liz at various moments for drama. No regime ever put them together for real. I'd love to know why.

[ulkis]

I don't think Guza was in a rush to do Liz/Jason either.

[ulkis]

2 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

Liason happened in the first place because of actors' departures. I don't know if the show was ever serious about them for whatever reason. They always got distracted by other female love interests for Jason and used Liz at various moments for drama. No regime ever put them together for real. I'd love to know why.

I think another thing that's overlooked now is, when Liason first started, Liz was best friends with Jason's kid sister. At the time it was a significant age difference and I remember a lot of people thought Jason dating his kid sister's best friend was weird. I think that was another reason Jason and Liz were chaste the whole time. Did they ever kiss at all before Burton left?

[HeatLifer]

47 minutes ago, ulkis said:

I think another thing that's overlooked now is, when Liason first started, Liz was best friends with Jason's kid sister. At the time it was a significant age difference and I remember a lot of people thought Jason dating his kid sister's best friend was weird. I think that was another reason Jason and Liz were chaste the whole time. Did they ever kiss at all before Burton left?

I'm pretty sure they didn't kiss until 2002, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think, at the end of the day, they wanted Jason's main love interest to not care about his killing ways, and to sometimes join him side-by-side with a gun or be his enemy's victim for him to save. For one reason or another, TPTB didn't want to change Liz's character to be that person. Especially when they had her start popping out kids. Now? In 2016? All that is just ironic considering who Frank turned JaSam into.

[dubbel zout]

I don't think it's wrong that Jason as a father didn't/doesn't want the mother of his children to join him on his adventures. If they both die, their kids are orphans. But they could have made Liz more of a "road not taken" sort of thing, where Jason has to really stop and think about his life choices. Instead she was basically a victim of a busted condom. SBu's Jason never got the chance to be a father to Danny, and BM's Jason and Sam have never had a true conversation about what he's going to do now. They just talk about particular instances, not anything permanent. So dumb.

[Oracle42]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

they could have made Liz more of a "road not taken" sort of thing, where Jason has to really stop and think about his life choices.

I mean, he had that with Robin. I think the only thing it made sense to do with Liz, was Jake - Guza didn't want Jason stuck with a child permanently and there was no way Jason/Liz would've intentionally gotten pregnant so accidental pregnancy was the only "road not taken" that made sense with those characters

[dubbel zout]

With Robin, at the time, there was no chance of children, so it would have been a different road. And when Liz got pregnant, Jason didn't think he'd ever have any children. 

I think ultimately it was right not to put Liz and Jason together, but it was presented as such a fait accompli. The stupid paternity shenanigans overtook everything.

Edited October 4, 2016 by dubbel zout

[HeatLifer]

3 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I think ultimately it was right not to put Liz and Jason together, but it was presented as such a fait accompli.

I always thought it was annoying that the "I want to keep you safe so we can't be together" line was continuously used. It was never "No, I love someone else more" or "We're not right for each other." It was a copout, essentially, for both Liason AND JaSam.

[dubbel zout]

We all know no one is safe in Port Charles. That line is worthless.