Elizabeth Webber: Forever The Manipulative Miss Or Adorable Angel?

[KerleyQ]

16 hours ago, melody16 said:

So I am a big Liz fan.  I have liked most of her pairings over the years with a few exceptions (Nik 08-09, Lucky 01-02, Jason 2012), but I have hated with the fire of a thousand suns her pairings with BM's Jake/Jason and now Franco.  It's very disheartening because one thing I could count on while watching this idiot show is that I could get at least enjoy Liz's chemistry with whatever dude the writers had her flip-flopping to that month. Now I am sans even that joy.  

I actually thought Liz/Jake were cute, you know, before they decided to throw Liz under the bus and she found out he was Jason.  Now, though, I retroactively hate every second of it.  

[Oracle42]

I was genuinely interested in Hayden/Liz as sisters when I thought Naomi was going to be her mother via an affair with Jeff; I have less than zero interest in a story about Rebecca Budig character discovering she's a Webber

[Melgaypet]

58 minutes ago, Oracle42 said:

I was genuinely interested in Hayden/Liz as sisters when I thought Naomi was going to be her mother via an affair with Jeff; I have less than zero interest in a story about Rebecca Budig character discovering she's a Webber

That would be the better story. It would tie in to how Elizabeth, from the time she first showed up in Port Charles, felt alienated from her family, especially her nameless mother.

[TeeVee329]

1 minute ago, Melgaypet said:

That would be the better story. It would tie in to how Elizabeth, from the time she first showed up in Port Charles, felt alienated from her family, especially her nameless mother.

Hey, No Name did the best she could!

[Oracle42]

These writers don't have any interest at all in telling stories about GH characters. 

[ulkis]

50 minutes ago, TeeVee329 said:

Hey, No Name did the best she could!

If the writers use the name "Andrea Trent Webber" for No Name, I will crack up, because it'll mean they went to wiki and actually had no clue that name was never mentioned on the show.

[UYI]

1 minute ago, ulkis said:

If the writers use the name "Andrea Trent Webber" for No Name, I will crack up, because it'll mean they went to wiki and actually had no clue that name was never mentioned on the show.

Honestly, I have no problem with it. It's a nice enough sounding name.

I still think Anne Logan should have probably been her mom, though.

[melody16]

It sucks that Liz has basically no friends on the show anymore. She's potentially dying and the only people there are Franco and Sabrina?

[HeatLifer]

I've officially come to the conclusion that Ron hated Liz, lol. I just watched some crap from 2012 and I'm like :O. Like, from start to finish, the dude treated her character as a spoiler.

[Oracle42]

I think he just didn't know what to do with her because, like everyone else on the show, he never bothered to learn anything about the character. He read some Soap message board  posts, decided she was hopelessly obsessed with Jason and a pathological liar and that was her story

[HeatLifer]

And he wrote her inconsistently. So here Liz tells AJ that she regrets that she lied to Jason and can never make it up to him. And when AJ tells her about JQ and that he "deserved better," she said Jason loved his life. We all know what happens 2 years later...

It's another example of Frank's GH, really. Characters say whatever fits the plot at the moment. Nothing ever has to make sense or be true to that person.

Edited September 19, 2016 by HeatLifer

[Darklazr]

On 8/23/2016 at 7:28 AM, KerleyQ said:

I actually thought Liz/Jake were cute, you know, before they decided to throw Liz under the bus and she found out he was Jason.  Now, though, I retroactively hate every second of it.  

I enjoyed Elizabeth and Jake and then the show had to trash my girl in order to get rid of BH, again.

[Darklazr]

On 2/21/2016 at 0:19 AM, katie9918 said:

Quite honestly, has Liz EVER mentioned Steve Hardy?

I understand why she's more about Audrey (the living step-grandparent who she can have a relationship with), but has she ever mentioned Steve?

I'm just asking because so many seem to be so resentful of 95% of the other characters on Liz's behalf because Liz is a so-called "legacy" character (though no one knew of her existence until she and Sarah actually appeared on-screen) yet she hasn't said much about her grandfather, if she ever actually knew him.

Elizabeth has mentioned her grandfather several times on this show.

[dubbel zout]

13 minutes ago, Darklazr said:

I enjoyed Elizabeth and Jake

I couldn't because the audience always knew it was Jason, and there's no way he wouldn't end up with Sam as long as she was around. And the show kept dropping (bad) hints that it was Jason so that it wouldn't be so creepy that Elizabeth asked an amnesiac stranger into her home and life. Not when she has three boys at him. I could have accepted it if the boys were away for the summer or something, but not as it was presented.

The idea of it was okay, but of course the show almost immediately botched it by having Liz find out Jake was Jason way too early, then giving her a gross reason not to tell everyone else.

[Darklazr]

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I couldn't because the audience always knew it was Jason, and there's no way he wouldn't end up with Sam as long as she was around. And the show kept dropping (bad) hints that it was Jason so that it wouldn't be so creepy that Elizabeth asked an amnesiac stranger into her home and life. Not when she has three boys at him. I could have accepted it if the boys were away for the summer or something, but not as it was presented.

The idea of it was okay, but of course the show almost immediately botched it by having Liz find out Jake was Jason way too early, then giving her a gross reason not to tell everyone else.

Now that I know BH was lowballed and TC is not coming back to the show, it really looks like RC/FV deliberately trashed Elizabeth and Nik in order to get rid of both characters, again!

[stlbf]

TFGH hasn't known how to write for Liz since LiaSon was first was a thing. The IIC would see a shIny actress (namely Sam and SkipperBitch) and bam! Jason was instantly in two luv with them. And BH was passed over. Jason to Lucky to Ric to Zander to Ric back to Lucky back to Jason back to Lucky, etc. Throw in Nik, AJ and a date or two with Dr Ewan and you have Liz's dating history. Why they had Liz sleep with Zander, I'll never know. He was her BFF's longtime bf/husband. Even if they were apart. It was just weird. Ric would've been a more logical hookup. 

Jason and Sam broke up. Jason left town. So what happens? Sam dates Lucky. They dump Liz back with Ric. Then TIIC decide they want Ric with Alexis. And almost none of the breakups make any sense. They were mostly overnight sudden crap. 

BH has always been a good company woman in my eyes. And yet the writers give her nothing for her troubles. They jerk her character around like a dog with a rope toy. I just don't get it. The woman has chemistry with plenty of actors. But TIIC treat Liz like she is a B or C minor storyline character. If some character they instantly favor comes around, she is the first one to be dropped from the story. 

[HeatLifer]

23 minutes ago, stlbf said:

The IIC would see a shIny actress (namely Sam and SkipperBitch) and bam! Jason was instantly in two luv with them. And BH was passed over.

Was that all it ever was, though? There has to be another reason. Did SBu's preferences come into play? Did the writers legitimately like Jason with X over Liz? Was the JaSam fanbase louder? Was it KeMo's popularity? I truly have no idea why they never truly did Liason for REAL.

[Oracle42]

SBu didn't want Jason to be a dad. Liz has been the maternal one since like, 2002?

I really do think Guza was going to do Liz/Jason until Frons mandated a SWSNBN/Jason pairing - then BH got pregnant, Guza wrote it in and that was it until KeMo's contract negotiations 

Edited September 20, 2016 by Oracle42

[ulkis]

11 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

Was that all it ever was, though? There has to be another reason. Did SBu's preferences come into play? Did the writers legitimately like Jason with X over Liz? Was the JaSam fanbase louder? Was it KeMo's popularity? I truly have no idea why they never truly did Liason for REAL.

I think it was Frons. Also maybe, Guza didn't want Jason with a baby yet, thus Liz retreating.

[UYI]

55 minutes ago, stlbf said:

 

BH has always been a good company woman in my eyes. 

She put up a good fight during her last contract negotiation this year, though. I think the only reason she really agreed to their final offer this time was because of her kids. She has definitely stayed above the fray throughout most of her run on the show, almost to a fault.

[HeatLifer]

What was Frons' reason? Just liking the other women better?

The kid thing makes sense, though. They gave him Michael waaay too early for the character, as well. Probs didn't want to make that mistake again.

[ulkis]

1 hour ago, HeatLifer said:

What was Frons' reason? Just liking the other women better?

The kid thing makes sense, though. They gave him Michael waaay too early for the character, as well. Probs didn't want to make that mistake again.

Well I think probably Liason part 1 never turned anything because they recast Lucky, and Liason part 2 because KeMo re-signed. 

[HeatLifer]

7 minutes ago, ulkis said:

Well I think probably Liason part 1 never turned anything because they recast Lucky, and Liason part 2 because KeMo re-signed. 

And SBu left during early Liason. They could have milked the crap out of a Liz/Lucky/Jason triangle, though, at any point. 

But I think they wanted Jason to have a chick who just wanted and needed HIM and he never had to be in competition with anyone else.

[ulkis]

Oh right. Forgot about Jason leaving town to chase the wind.

[HeatLifer]

17 minutes ago, ulkis said:

Oh right. Forgot about Jason leaving town to chase the wind.

He should have stayed chasing. Could have saved us from having to watch Courtney, Liz, and Sam bawling in his face to love them while he maybe blinked twice. 

[stlbf]

Ah, remember the fun perfection of the recast Yelly McShoutington Lucky? God, what an awful recast. Just MISERABLE . The came the poor Dim!Lucky recast. Not my favorite either. Hated him with Liz. Actually didn't mind him with Sam/KM, but he never really felt like Lucky to me. And then JJ came back. I was excited. And was almost immediately horrified be the terrible writing. That was when L&L2.0 truly was done for me. 

But yeah, Jason left to end LiaSon. And by the time he got back, the SkipperBitch and Frons happened. I also think that Guza originally was planning for a LiaSon reunion. I swear, I saw it heading that way on my tv. And I was fine with it. And it seemed like over perhaps a week(maybe less than that), Skipper and Jason suddenly were each other's Twu Wuv. I remember it driving me nuts. Jason suddenly couldn't care less about Liz. And Liz was heading back to Not!Lucky for like the 2nd or 3rd time, I believe. 

[HeatLifer]

6 minutes ago, stlbf said:

Jason suddenly couldn't care less about Liz.

He was such a freaking asshole to her. Became completely uncaring and oblivious to her while she had to be screaming in his face about how he didn't want her. It was so bad.

[LeftPhalange]

4 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

He was such a freaking asshole to her. Became completely uncaring and oblivious to her while she had to be screaming in his face about how he didn't want her. It was so bad.

She should have taken the hint and moved the fuck on.

[KerleyQ]

16 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I couldn't because the audience always knew it was Jason, and there's no way he wouldn't end up with Sam as long as she was around. And the show kept dropping (bad) hints that it was Jason so that it wouldn't be so creepy that Elizabeth asked an amnesiac stranger into her home and life. Not when she has three boys at him. I could have accepted it if the boys were away for the summer or something, but not as it was presented.

The idea of it was okay, but of course the show almost immediately botched it by having Liz find out Jake was Jason way too early, then giving her a gross reason not to tell everyone else.

Well, of course, we all knew he was Jason.  But, Liz had no idea, and BH and BM had good chemistry.  I knew they were't end game, but I enjoyed them for what they were, before the show decided that it couldn't just be a story of this couple who really liked each other having it all blown up when they found out who he was, and it had to be Liz being the big bad evil to prop the twuest wuv that ever wuved.  

[Oracle42]

The idea that RC or any of the writers care enough about a pre-RC couple to "prop" them is not borne out by the writing. RC cared about Franco/Carly, Patrick/Sabrina, Franco/Nina Ava/Morgan and, to a lesser degree, Tree/Maxie.  

The new writers care about Hayden. I'd say they also care about Liz/Franco but the writing is so bad that I honestly can't tell whether it's resistance or incompetence - so I'm guessing that that's FV instead of Jelly

[HeatLifer]

2 hours ago, KerleyQ said:

prop the twuest wuv that ever wuved.  

The writers didn't care about JaSam, TBH. I know how it ended up, mostly bc I think they had to course-correct after JT left, but really think about it. Have you ever seen a storyline where a man comes back from the dead and he and his wife feel nothing for each other? For a YEAR? No connection, no pull, and even after he finds out who he is, he chooses to stay with another woman until he finds out he's been lied to. That is not a well-written love story. At all.

[dubbel zout]

Danny had more of an initial connection to Jake than Sam ever did. Remember the gigantic anvil of Danny running to Jake's hospital bed to hold his hand (or whatever) while Sam just blinks?

36 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

That is not a well-written love story. At all.

I'm still amazed at how badly this story was botched for everyone: Jason, Sam, Elizabeth, Monica, etc. Even Sonny and Carly were shortchanged.

[Oracle42]

Jason/Sam haven't been written for as individuals, a couple or a family in yeeeeeears. The writing they have received is a sop to fans who want their couple happy at all costs. But Jason doesn't have a purpose, except foil for GentleFarmerFranco and Sam doesn't have a story, aside from being totes fine! With Liz trying to marry her husband. 

BM/KeMo are actually good together on-screen but, Heatlifer is right, they're not Jason and Sam. He wasn't Jason with Liz either but that was supposed to be amnesia - this is just bad writing

Edited September 20, 2016 by Oracle42

[HeatLifer]

22 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I'm still amazed at how badly this story was botched for everyone: Jason, Sam, Elizabeth, Monica, etc. Even Sonny and Carly were shortchanged.

Relationships this show ruined bc of this story: Liason, JaSam, Scrubs, Sonny/Jason, Jason/Michael, Patrick/Liz, Nik/Sam, etc. And, yes, I purposely left out Samtrick bc they never had a REAL, developed friendship OR a REAL, developed non-plot point relationship to mourn the loss of, no matter how much some Sam fans believe so. #Sorry

8 minutes ago, Oracle42 said:

BM/KeMo are actually good together on-screen but, Heatlifer is right, they're not Jason and Sam. He wasn't Jason with Liz either but that was supposed to be amnesia - this is just bad writing

It's 100% bad writing. The writers don't truly care about JaSam or the characters or their story. They're trying to please their fans. That's it.

[NiqueAlexis]

1 hour ago, Oracle42 said:

The idea that RC or any of the writers care enough about a pre-RC couple to "prop" them is not borne out by the writing. RC cared about Franco/Carly, Patrick/Sabrina, Franco/Nina Ava/Morgan and, to a lesser degree, Tree/Maxie.  

The new writers care about Hayden. I'd say they also care about Liz/Franco but the writing is so bad that I honestly can't tell whether it's resistance or incompetence - so I'm guessing that that's FV instead of Jelly

He cared a hell enough about the Gremlin aka Spin & putting Maxie back with him 2 the point that he trashed My Girl & ran her into the ground where she needed to be redeemed after the story. Knocked her up with a child 2 achieve it that she never needed nor was anyone clamoring for her 2 have. Ceased 2 give 2 shits about said child or Maxie being a mother after BA/Spin left. The same goes for Jelly who are supposed to be feminist but write msygosnatic.

Threw Ellie under the bus & was about to do worse but BA thankfully was leaving. And I couldn't stand Ellie cause she was the female version of the male version I despised she was just less annoying.

Let's not even get started on how Lante was screwed out of there own story & became props In it. All because Spixie couldn't get together on there own merits. So the Idea that Ron didn't care enough about a couple before him to prop them is false proven by Spixie.

Then there was the gem he put out there that the only way she could be a full-time mother to Georgie is to live a lie, by being in a relationship with a clown she neither wanted or was in love with. Insulting 

As Ron couples go he created 3 popular couples in order of how they happen Morgan/Ava, Britt/Nik (Which I never understand due to Britt stealing his sister baby so it was doomed from the beginning) & Maxie/Nathan. Frankly cause Ron being a moron didn't give a shit about them after he got them all together. Rather it was incompetence or ADD once he got them together he couldn't finish writing an actual story for them. So he really didn't treat them the 3 I listed any different then he did couples he didn't create. 

Cranco & Patrina were on a whole nether different level.

[KerleyQ]

1 hour ago, HeatLifer said:

The writers didn't care about JaSam, TBH. I know how it ended up, mostly bc I think they had to course-correct after JT left, but really think about it. Have you ever seen a storyline where a man comes back from the dead and he and his wife feel nothing for each other? For a YEAR? No connection, no pull, and even after he finds out who he is, he chooses to stay with another woman until he finds out he's been lied to. That is not a well-written love story. At all.

The second they made the decision to have Liz find out and keep the truth hidden, it was about making her the villain to their eventual reunion.  They may not be writing them any substance, but they are writing them as this eternally happy couple with their over the top "look, dammit, we're happy and in love!!!!!....even though one of us may or may not remember a damn thing about our history at any given moment of the day...." They basically trashed Liz to add some "drama" to the JaSam reunion.  Instead of addressing the inherent drama in a man returning from the dead with no memory of his wife and son (who had started to form a family with a new man) and a general distaste for his former life style, they saddled Liz with the drama and left the two of them as pure and wonderful beings.  To me, that's propping.  It's shittier than usual propping, it's lazier than usual propping, but it's propping.  

[HeatLifer]

4 minutes ago, KerleyQ said:

 To me, that's propping.  It's shittier than usual propping, it's lazier than usual propping, but it's propping

I think it's propping in the sense that they wanted to keep Jason, Sam, (and, weirdly, Patrick), completely clean. As opposed to propping the COUPLE JaSam, as if they in some way actually cared about that pairing. Does that make any sense? It probs doesn't, I know. Yes, JaSam were going to have an eventual reunion of sorts. Yes, Liz was made to be the bad guy. But I still think JT leaving when he did was important. I don't think JaSam would have gotten back together when they did or the way they did in this OTT "We're so happy and nothing ever came between us" way.

8 minutes ago, KerleyQ said:

who had started to form a family with a new man

LOL. That family that spent 0 time together? I'm sorry, it still makes me laugh.

[KerleyQ]

1 minute ago, HeatLifer said:

I think it's propping in the sense that they wanted to keep Jason, Sam, (and, weirdly, Patrick), completely clean. As opposed to propping the COUPLE JaSam, as if they in some way actually cared about that pairing. Does that make any sense? It probs doesn't, I know. Yes, JaSam were going to have an eventual reunion of sorts. Yes, Liz was made to be the bad guy. But I still think JT leaving when he did was important. I don't think JaSam would have gotten back together when they did or the way they did in this OTT "We're so happy and nothing ever came between us" way.

LOL. That family that spent 0 time together? I'm sorry, it still makes me laugh.

Like I said, it was lazy propping, but it was propping.  

[Oracle42]

15 minutes ago, KerleyQ said:

The second they made the decision to have Liz find out and keep the truth hidden, it was about making her the villain to their eventual reunion.

I think RC made that decision when he decide to tell the story. And based on the writing for her during the Danny DNA switch, I think RC had decided that that's who she was.

 

20 minutes ago, KerleyQ said:

 Instead of addressing the inherent drama in a man returning from the dead with no memory of his wife and son (who had started to form a family with a new man) and a general distaste for his former life style

RC apparently felt that that was "boring" - and by boring, I assume he meant there wouldn't be a big campy scene at the Jake/Liz Patrick/Sam double wedding

[HeatLifer]

5 minutes ago, Oracle42 said:

I think RC made that decision when he decide to tell the story. And based on the writing for her during the Danny DNA switch, I think RC had decided that that's who she was.

Yeah, the way Liz was written under RC never really changed. He always wanted to use her in that way. He also trashed Jason, too, before SBu left, in the aftermath, and as Jake Doe.

The only character that was continuously written as a victim to others was Sam. And, hilariously, I don't even think Ron favored her. 

[Oracle42]

Just now, HeatLifer said:

The only character that was continuously written as a victim to others was Sam. And, hilariously, I don't even think Ron favored her. 

I don't think he was remotely interested in Sam as a character; he never, at any point, made the slightest attempt to write her in character. I think he was only ever interested in KeMo in relation to ME and then as the "nice girl"/fourth in the crappy quad he was writing about four characters who bore no resemblance to Liz/Jason/Sam/Patrick

[HeatLifer]

5 minutes ago, Oracle42 said:

I don't think he was remotely interested in Sam as a character; he never, at any point, made the slightest attempt to write her in character. I think he was only ever interested in KeMo in relation to ME and then as the "nice girl"/fourth in the crappy quad he was writing about four characters who bore no resemblance to Liz/Jason/Sam/Patrick

Yup, couldn't agree more. He clearly was desperate for KeMo/ME to be attached together. And then when that fell apart the second time, he quickly paired her with Patrick for the Jason story, even though it made absolutely no sense for those characters to be more than acquaintances. But, like you said, no one was in character. It was always about the plot that needed to be pushed forward. 

[dubbel zout]

At least he never hooked up Patrick and Elizabeth. #SmallFavors

[HeatLifer]

29 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

At least he never hooked up Patrick and Elizabeth. #SmallFavors

Not saying I wanted it, but they would have made 100% more sense than Patrick and Sam.

[dubbel zout]

That's true. I didn't want it because I loved their friendship. Not everything has to be more.

[ulkis]

1 hour ago, HeatLifer said:

Yup, couldn't agree more. He clearly was desperate for KeMo/ME to be attached together. And then when that fell apart the second time, he quickly paired her with Patrick for the Jason story, even though it made absolutely no sense for those characters to be more than acquaintances. But, like you said, no one was in character. It was always about the plot that needed to be pushed forward. 

I don't think it was Ron who was desperate for KeMo/ME. That was probably all FV. If anything I think Ron was more enthused about a potential Sam/Patrick/Jason/Robin triangle.

But your larger point remains. 

(although I don't think there's no reason why Sam and Patrick couldn't be friends.)

[HeatLifer]

30 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

That's true. I didn't want it because I loved their friendship. Not everything has to be more.

Exactly. And for a long time now, this show has undervalued friendships.

25 minutes ago, ulkis said:

If anything I think Ron was more enthused about a potential Sam/Patrick/Jason/Robin triangle.

I think this was his dream scenario. He crazily wrote JnR to perfection. It was one of the FEW things he never trashed.

25 minutes ago, ulkis said:

although I don't think there's no reason why Sam and Patrick couldn't be friends.

After both Jason debacles? I don't think Patrick would have ever wanted anything to do with her personally. Not that he would walk around angry at her, but there were too many negative memories for me to believe he would be hanging out with Sam, chatting it up. I still don't even know what those two characters talked about on a daily basis. They had nothing in common but loss. And Patrick's loss was directly linked to Sam's husband.

Edited September 20, 2016 by HeatLifer

[Oracle42]

33 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

I still don't even know what those two characters talked about on a daily basis. They had nothing in common but loss. And Patrick's loss was directly linked to Sam's husband.

replying in Relationships thread

Edited September 20, 2016 by Oracle42
wrong thread

[HeatLifer]

56 minutes ago, Oracle42 said:

The last thing SBuJason did before he left the show was to turn her down - again AFTER using her adulation to make himself feel better about fucking up his marriage. 

He used Liz over and over and over (and treated her like nothing at various moments on this show, especially when he was with Courtney) and chose Sam over her repeatedly.

21 minutes ago, Bringonthedrama said:

I agree that it's absurd. It's kind of a toss-up as to who is worse, Ric (who poisoned her and held a pregnant woman captive in a secret room of their home) or Franco (who had her newborn son kidnapped from the hospital, almost murdered her ex-SIL to taunt Jason, and has been verbally awful to anyone he hadn't either killed or tortured already.) I guess SBu's Jason was better than Franco in that he didn't go after children to hurt the adults? I would hope that the people who've hated Lucky or thought he was a terrible match for Liz meant the two awful Lucky recasts.  

I just don't understand how Lucky is seen as a worse PERSON. We all like what we like and ship pairings for a lot of reasons. But for Franco (serial killer, psychopath, sexual assaulter), Ric (sociopath, kidnapper, sexual assaulter), and Jason (killer, void of human emotion, threatened to kill a woman) to be better people than Lucky? I don't know. I just don't agree.

[peachmangosteen]

5 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

I just don't understand how Lucky is seen as a worse PERSON. We all like what we like and ship pairings for a lot of reasons. But for Franco (serial killer, psychopath, sexual assaulter), Ric (sociopath, kidnapper, sexual assaulter), and Jason (killer, void of human emotion, threatened to kill a woman) to be better people than Lucky? I don't know. I just don't agree.

I am not a Lucky fan (and I love Ric), but I agree. I mean come on now, there is no way Lucky is a worse human being than the other 3. 

As for whether he's a worse love interest though, I can't really say since I've never been watching when he and Liz were together. But I can't really imagine him being worse than fucking Franco or Jason. And didn't Ric try to kill Liz or something at one point? In that case, I can't imagine he's a better boyfriend than Lucky lol.

AJ's better than all of them though. :)