Elizabeth Webber: Forever The Manipulative Miss Or Adorable Angel?

[HeatLifer]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

We all know no one is safe in Port Charles. That line is worthless.

Every time they would "break up," it would be the same tired story and it made it seem like Jason could be with any woman, as long as that woman accepted what he did for a living. He had no other standards.

[dubbel zout]

It was all about him, as is the usual case with the Port Charles men.

[HeatLifer]

27 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

It was all about him, as is the usual case with the Port Charles men.

Right. Jason was never the one who had to suck it up and accept something or cater to someone else's needs. He was going to live his life his way and if a woman wanted to come along for the ride, sure!

[dubbel zout]

Suck it up, ladies. You're lucky to be a part of his life, not vice versa. UGH.

[HeatLifer]

On October 4, 2016 at 6:11 AM, dubbel zout said:

Suck it up, ladies. You're lucky to be a part of his life, not vice versa. UGH.

They really did make it seem like that, didn't they? As if he was the most wonderful, honest, beautiful man, and no one could ever compare. No woman was ever gonna get a man better than HIM. All the women wanted to have his child, for fuck's sake. 

[ulkis]

It just to occurred to me all over again what a bad job the show did with the Liz/Rebecca Budig sisters reveal.  There's been almost no fallout or change in their relationship and they're both busy with their swains.  So bizarre.

@TeeVee329 I agree. Without Hayden as Nik's wife and Nik kinda of having to navigate between them, the fall-out is lost. 

[Oracle42]

They should have connected them through Naomi; that's where the story potential was - especially since Naomi was ONSCREEN, and frikkin looked like Liz  

[peachmangosteen]

10 hours ago, Vella said:

No evil Liz ... Six months of story to sort through where nobody is really the BAD EVUL. 

But Liz isn't being presented as evil. Like not even a little bit. Her going on and on about being the town pariah when there's absolutely no evidence of it doesn't count. And that makes their decision to write the story this way even more stupid. If they were going to have Liz go off the deep end so thoroughly they should have let her actually face some consequences for it. Otherwise there was literally no point to it.

13 hours ago, Oracle42 said:

They should have connected them through Naomi; that's where the story potential was - especially since Naomi was ONSCREEN, and frikkin looked like Liz  

I agree. I really wish they would've gone that route instead of making Jeff Hayden's dad. It honestly makes no sense to me at all that they didn't go there. 

Also, I actually completely forgot about Hayden and Liz even being sisters until I read @ulkis's post. LOL!

[LeftPhalange]

6 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Also, I actually completely forgot about Hayden and Liz even being sisters until I read @ulkis's post. LOL!

Jelly probably forgot as well.

[dubbel zout]

44 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

But Liz isn't being presented as evil. Like not even a little bit. Her going on and on about being the town pariah when there's absolutely no evidence of it doesn't count. And that makes their decision to write the story this way even more stupid. If they were going to have Liz go off the deep end so thoroughly they should have let her actually face some consequences for it. Otherwise there was literally no point to it.

I'm a Liz fan, and I agree with this. Saying you're the town pariah doesn't automatically make you the town pariah. But of course, to show that, we'd have to see Liz with people other than Franco, Sam, and Jason, and the show doesn't want to do that. And frankly, at least three-quarters of the town couldn't care less who Liz sees, so "town pariah" is just dumb self-pity or justification.

[peachmangosteen]

21 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

And frankly, at least three-quarters of the town couldn't care less who Liz sees, so "town pariah" is just dumb self-pity or justification.

Yea. And you know what if they presented it that way and not like we're supposed to seriously believe Liz is somehow now a town pariah, then it would probably work tbh.

I've come to realize that as much as I hate Liz most of the time, I still find her infinitely more interesting than a lot of the characters, including Sam who I still kinda sorta actually like. There is so much story they could mine with Liz that has the potential to be really good, interesting stuff. And BH, even though I'm not always a fan of her acting choices, is capable of playing that kind of stuff. I just don't understand why they don't do something more with Liz. I mean I think it's probably just laziness really. Sigh.

[KerleyQ]

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

I agree. I really wish they would've gone that route instead of making Jeff Hayden's dad. It honestly makes no sense to me at all that they didn't go there. 

They were way too thirsty to make her a Webber, though, so being tied to Liz through Liz's mother instead of making Hayden Jeff's daughter wouldn't have worked for them.  They weren't going to waste their precious Greenlee on not being part of one of the GH legacy families.  

[LeftPhalange]

The fact that we're supposed to see Liez as some sort of victim, the fact that we're supposed to think she's been ostracized by PC, and the fact that she never once offered a sincere apology to Sam and Jason - makes this shit even more infuriating. And the fact that she STILL occasionally acts jealous over Jason/Sam and flashes bitch face for no reason.

If the writers would stop trying to portray her as some sort of Good Girl that multiple men have to sanctify while she sits in judgement of others for being Bad - that would go a long way to making this character less rancid. And if she owned the fact that she's a petty, childish, obsessive, judgmental, unbalanced bitch that would help too. 

[HeatLifer]

2 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

But Liz isn't being presented as evil.

I don't want to speak for anyone, but I don't think most fans are talking about what's currently on-screen. Obviously the show quickly moved past any long lasting effects of the story. I think the reference was about the Jake Doe story where Liz/Nik were presented as the wrongdoers and Jason/Sam were the innocent victims. 

Edited October 17, 2016 by HeatLifer

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, LeftPhalange said:

If the writers would stop trying to portray her as some sort of Good Girl that multiple men have to sanctify while she sits in judgement of others for being Bad - that would go a long way to making this character less rancid. And if she owned the fact that she's a petty, childish, obsessive, judgmental, unbalanced bitch that would help too. 

This. That's literally all they have to do to make Liz less insufferable.

[LeftPhalange]

8 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

I don't want to speak for anyone, but I don't think most fans are talking about what's currently on-screen. Obviously the show quickly moved past any long lasting effects of the story. I think the reference was about the Jake Doe story where Liz/Nik were presented as the wrongdoers and Jason/Sam were the innocent victims. 

Even back then Liez wasn't presented as being evil. She just came off as desperate and pathetic - par for the course when it comes to her and Jason. Nik was the one trying to have people murdered. 

[HeatLifer]

9 minutes ago, LeftPhalange said:

Even back then Liez wasn't presented as being evil. She just came off as desperate and pathetic - par for the course when it comes to her and Jason. Nik was the one trying to have people murdered. 

I mean, regardless of what words we attribute to the characters, the intention of TPTB was not for the audience to root for Liz and Nik. We were not supposed to like or support what they were doing to Sam and Jason. And I agree with the crowd who believes that Liz and Nik didn't have to be in those roles. There were other ways to play this story without those two automatically being seen as wrong.

[Darklazr]

On 10/3/2016 at 3:23 PM, HeatLifer said:

I'm pretty sure they didn't kiss until 2002, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think, at the end of the day, they wanted Jason's main love interest to not care about his killing ways, and to sometimes join him side-by-side with a gun or be his enemy's victim for him to save. For one reason or another, TPTB didn't want to change Liz's character to be that person. Especially when they had her start popping out kids. Now? In 2016? All that is just ironic considering who Frank turned JaSam into.

Liason first kiss was at Elizabeth's art studio in 2002 after she caught Lucky in bed with Sarah at Kelly's.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Darklazr

[HeatLifer]

Just now, Darklazr said:

Liason first kiss was at Elizabeth's art studio after she caught Lucky in bed with Sarah at Kelly's.

What year was that? Was it 2002 or earlier?

[Darklazr]

4 hours ago, KerleyQ said:

They were way too thirsty to make her a Webber, though, so being tied to Liz through Liz's mother instead of making Hayden Jeff's daughter wouldn't have worked for them.  They weren't going to waste their precious Greenlee on not being part of one of the GH legacy families.  

It's another way to get rid of Elizabeth/BH at contract time.

[HeatLifer]

7 minutes ago, Darklazr said:

Liason first kiss was at Elizabeth's art studio in 2002 after she caught Lucky in bed with Sarah at Kelly's.

Thanks! 

[Darklazr]

2 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

I don't want to speak for anyone, but I don't think most fans are talking about what's currently on-screen. Obviously the show quickly moved past any long lasting effects of the story. I think the reference was about the Jake Doe story where Liz/Nik were presented as the wrongdoers and Jason/Sam were the innocent victims. 

How freaking lazy does a writer have to be not to see the potential story for YEARS if Elizabeth, Nik, Sam, Jason and Patrick had no clue that Jake Doe was really Jason Morgan?   Helena would have kept her mouth shut.  Lake/Liason and Samtric should have all married and bonded with the kids before Robin is rescues and outs that Jason is alive.

2 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

Thanks! 

The HW at the time was planning on Liason kissing when Jason came back in 2001, but said it was way too soon for them to move in that direction.  I really miss when a soap would take it's time writing kissing scenes between new couples.

[HeatLifer]

17 minutes ago, Darklazr said:

before Robin is rescues and outs that Jason is alive.

....Robin is rescued and then she heads to Maui. That's better.

[Oracle42]

26 minutes ago, Darklazr said:

story for YEARS

Remind me to send JT a fruit basket

[Darklazr]

2 hours ago, Oracle42 said:

Remind me to send JT a fruit basket

Bhwhahaha!  I felt the same way when SBu left the show in 2012!

[Oracle42]

Getting SK in exchange was an excellent deal. 

I wish CBS would reboot GL & ATWT.  I liked RoHo as Paul Ryan - at least, I liked him once they stopped that Meg/Paul nonsense. I bet most of the FV imports would hightail it to CBS given half a chance

[Darklazr]

I fully expect MSt would jump ship now that there is an old regime running Y&R.

[Oracle42]

She might be willing but I think CBS traded up when they got GT, and I think they know it

[WendyCR72]

4 hours ago, Oracle42 said:

Remind me to send JT a fruit basket

Samtrick bordered on torture for only being together a few months romantically. YEARS? Put the masses out of their misery. Thanks, JT, for hauling ass to the nearest exit!

[HeatLifer]

55 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Samtrick bordered on torture for only being together a few months romantically. YEARS? Put the masses out of their misery. Thanks, JT, for hauling ass to the nearest exit!

 Oh, Wendy, you mean you didn't want to hear the phrases "adventure buddy" and "deserves to be happy" for 5 more years? What's wrong with you?

[TeeVee329]

9 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I'm a Liz fan, and I agree with this. Saying you're the town pariah doesn't automatically make you the town pariah. But of course, to show that, we'd have to see Liz with people other than Franco, Sam, and Jason, and the show doesn't want to do that. And frankly, at least three-quarters of the town couldn't care less who Liz sees, so "town pariah" is just dumb self-pity or justification.

What annoyed me about that "I'm a pariah!" stuff is that she knew that would be the consequence if the Jake(son) lie came out, she knew that and verbalized that right from the beginning.  So her being all snitty when it happened was eye-rolly.

[Darklazr]

3 hours ago, TeeVee329 said:

What annoyed me about that "I'm a pariah!" stuff is that she knew that would be the consequence if the Jake(son) lie came out, she knew that and verbalized that right from the beginning.  So her being all snitty when it happened was eye-rolly.

Oh, I thoroughly enjoyed Elizabeth's speech at the nurses ball and wonder what RC would have written for the fallout if he was still on the show.  However, a part of me knows that RC and FV would have kept on trashing Elizabeth and Nik in order to get rid of BH and TC.   Ass hats.

[Darklazr]

On 10/3/2016 at 2:33 PM, ulkis said:

I don't think Guza was in a rush to do Liz/Jason either.

Guza was writing Liason and it was stopped due to Frons/his wife and their interest in Jason/Courtney.  

We have vet/newbies all of the times on soaps, but GH kept pushing a very popular Elizabeth aside for some pet.

[WendyCR72]

6 hours ago, Darklazr said:

Guza was writing Liason and it was stopped due to Frons/his wife and their interest in Jason/Courtney.

But from all I had read about Guza, he had absolutely no trouble thumbing his nose and doing what he wanted against authority. See early Jax/Alexis versus the treacly Jax/Chloe setup, even though Wendy Riche desperately wanted the latter. (And I think even with Frons; they went back as far as NBC when Guza was a writer on Santa Barbara and Frons was the NBC Daytime VP (who made a cameo on said soap as...God.) And JFP was the EP.)

So I don't buy he was "forced" to abandon Liz and Jason. I do buy Frons' love of the bland Courtney. God knows why. But Frons' thing for her with Jason must have faded since they did split while he was still in charge.

Honestly, I think it all comes down to Liz not being a priority player and more of a team/utility player. Is it fair? No. But others got the pairings and prestige (Robin/Patrick; Sam/Jason, et. al.) and Liz is/was either used as a third wheel or just used as filler until someone "better"/"more worthy" came along. And even when she did finally get a love interest created for her post-Guza with Ewen, she still didn't rank and he was turned evil and...bye!

It's too bad the show jettisoned Matt Hunter. Maybe it wasn't A-level, but I think Matt/Liz had potential. But, again, apparently since Matt and Maxie didn't catch fire as JC/KSt did on Days, he was then expendable instead of given a chance elsewhere.

I hate Franco and I think Roger Howarth is overrated. But as unfair as it is due to the fact that Herbst has the seniority, I think attaching Liz to Franco, while gross given Liz's own rape history, may benefit BH the actress since it is clear Howarth is a pet of Frank's from Howarth's prior soap gig.

But will she ever get the limelight - even in her alleged own story with the return of her rapist? I don't know. But history makes me think no.

[Darklazr]

6 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

But from all I had read about Guza, he had absolutely no trouble thumbing his nose and doing what he wanted against authority. See early Jax/Alexis versus the treacly Jax/Chloe setup, even though Wendy Riche desperately wanted the latter. (And I think even with Frons; they went back as far as NBC when Guza was a writer on Santa Barbara and Frons was the NBC Daytime VP (who made a cameo on said soap as...God.) And JFP was the EP.)

So I don't buy he was "forced" to abandon Liz and Jason. I do buy Frons' love of the bland Courtney. God knows why. But Frons' thing for her with Jason must have faded since they did split while he was still in charge.

Honestly, I think it all comes down to Liz not being a priority player and more of a team/utility player. Is it fair? No. But others got the pairings and prestige (Robin/Patrick; Sam/Jason, et. al.) and Liz is/was either used as a third wheel or just used as filler until someone "better"/"more worthy" came along. And even when she did finally get a love interest created for her post-Guza with Ewen, she still didn't rank and he was turned evil and...bye!

It's too bad the show jettisoned Matt Hunter. Maybe it wasn't A-level, but I think Matt/Liz had potential. But, again, apparently since Matt and Maxie didn't catch fire as JC/KSt did on Days, he was then expendable instead of given a chance elsewhere.

I hate Franco and I think Roger Howarth is overrated. But as unfair as it is due to the fact that Herbst has the seniority, I think attaching Liz to Franco, while gross given Liz's own rape history, may benefit BH the actress since it is clear Howarth is a pet of Frank's from Howarth's prior soap gig.

But will she ever get the limelight - even in her alleged own story with the return of her rapist? I don't know. But history makes me think no.

Guza may have been able to finagle whatever he wanted under Riche, but it was very obvious Liason was the story when he and SBu returned in 2002 and then it was dumped when Frons came onboard.  Courtney was bland as dirt and went through half the male cast before being killed off.

RoHo has benefited greatly over the last six months with Elizabeth/BH's popularity, because Franco was a huge load of horse dung.

[WendyCR72]

8 hours ago, Darklazr said:

Guza may have been able to finagle whatever he wanted under Riche, but it was very obvious Liason was the story when he and SBu returned in 2002 and then it was dumped when Frons came onboard

Yes, but my prior point is, the numbers were still decent then, and Guza ignored authority before. And even if Frons loved the insipid Courtney and her with Jason, well...Frons also had a boss to answer to. With good numbers, Guza could have easily made the case to continue with Liz/Jason. He didn't. Maybe Liz/Jason was supposed to happen. Maybe it wasn't. But Guza didn't seem all that heartbroken about changing course, which tells me he didn't care one way or the other. (And the revisit in 2007 was a clusterfuck, and showed with Guza, be careful what you wish for.)

[HeatLifer]

I mean, they went there with Liason eventually, but at that point...the audience just wasn't there. Yes, they had fans, but compared to JaSam, it was honestly too late. Timing really did screw them.

I sound like Liz, you guys.

[KerleyQ]

On 11/28/2016 at 7:22 AM, Darklazr said:

Guza may have been able to finagle whatever he wanted under Riche, but it was very obvious Liason was the story when he and SBu returned in 2002 and then it was dumped when Frons came onboard.  Courtney was bland as dirt and went through half the male cast before being killed off.

RoHo has benefited greatly over the last six months with Elizabeth/BH's popularity, because Franco was a huge load of horse dung.

I think that this was a case where Guza would have done what he wanted, but, once Frons put the Jason/Courtney idea in his head, it was a chance for Jason to get another win over AJ, so he went with it.  And, once they were a couple, of course they were going to get front burner status, because anything Jason did was front burner under Guza.  Guza's only investment in Courtney was in how she related to Jason, Sonny, and Carly.  He eventually got bored with her and tossed her to Jax and Nik.  

[dubbel zout]

She wasn't much of a character anyway. Carly's big fond remembrance is that Courtney stared at snow globes for hours. Oof.

[ulkis]

1 hour ago, KerleyQ said:

I think that this was a case where Guza would have done what he wanted, but, once Frons put the Jason/Courtney idea in his head, it was a chance for Jason to get another win over AJ, so he went with it.  And, once they were a couple, of course they were going to get front burner status, because anything Jason did was front burner under Guza.  Guza's only investment in Courtney was in how she related to Jason, Sonny, and Carly.  He eventually got bored with her and tossed her to Jax and Nik.  

Yeah, I honestly don't think Guza gave a shit who Jason was paired with, unless it was Robin. Never Robin! It was a weird thing with him.

[HeatLifer]

19 minutes ago, ulkis said:

Yeah, I honestly don't think Guza gave a shit who Jason was paired with, unless it was Robin. Never Robin! It was a weird thing with him.

And it was Jason's best pairing to this day. #SorryNotSorry

[WendyCR72]

Yeah, but...and I hate defending Guza...it made sense to not pair Robin with Jason. Robin is a doctor. Can you imagine the conversations?

Jason: <Blink, stare>

Robin: "Oh, hi! You're home. How was your day?"

Jason: <Blink>" I killed 6 people today, but I missed 4 others."

Robin: "Oh, those we pulled the bullets out of. There'll always be another kill!"

See? They went in different directions. Sam (real Sam, anyway) never minded that crap. But a doctor and a killer make no sense.

And, to tie this to Liz, as it is her thread, she and Jason made no sense, either, with her being a nurse with small kids. Which means Franco should be a no-no, too. But clearly, the show lost any moral core eons ago...

[dubbel zout]

I really hate that they rewrote Liz so that she was fine with Jason being a hit man. That was the main reason they didn't get together in the first place! But suddenly she can push it aside? After seeing over and over again how people around Jason get hurt? Ridiculous.

[HeatLifer]

3 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Can you imagine the conversations?

I don't need to imagine their conversations. I've seen them. ;)

[Oracle42]

I thought she got mad because he didn't tell her the truth about about Sonny faking his death. She still wanted him when she slapped Copkilla (pre-Cam) and during the SOS (post-Cam) and when his marriage was breaking up - at which point, he'd been a mobster for well over a decade. Plus, when Jake was working for Julian, she sent her children away to keep him. 

[Badsamaritan]

10 hours ago, Oracle42 said:

I thought she got mad because he didn't tell her the truth about about Sonny faking his death. She still wanted him when she slapped Copkilla (pre-Cam) and during the SOS (post-Cam) and when his marriage was breaking up - at which point, he'd been a mobster for well over a decade. Plus, when Jake was working for Julian, she sent her children away to keep him. 

This right here is why I can never like Liez. She chooses penis over her own damn kids pretty much every time. Didn't NotDeadJake get run right the fuck over because she was too busy obsessing over another DNA test instead of making sure his ass stayed in the house? And then to flat out lie to that very same kid about his daddy in order to keep penis in her bed? And now she's brought a baby snatching serial killing rapey murderhobo into her home. Gross. There's not enough whitewashing in the world to make me forget how selfish she is. At least get your tubes tied, damn.

[Darklazr]

16 hours ago, Oracle42 said:

I thought she got mad because he didn't tell her the truth about about Sonny faking his death. She still wanted him when she slapped Copkilla (pre-Cam) and during the SOS (post-Cam) and when his marriage was breaking up - at which point, he'd been a mobster for well over a decade. Plus, when Jake was working for Julian, she sent her children away to keep him. 

When did Elizabeth send her boys away to keep Jake Doe?!  

[LeftPhalange]

4 hours ago, Badsamaritan said:

This right here is why I can never like Liez. She chooses penis over her own damn kids pretty much every time. Didn't NotDeadJake get run right the fuck over because she was too busy obsessing over another DNA test instead of making sure his ass stayed in the house? And then to flat out lie to that very same kid about his daddy in order to keep penis in her bed? And now she's brought a baby snatching serial killing rapey murderhobo into her home. Gross. There's not enough whitewashing in the world to make me forget how selfish she is. At least get your tubes tied, damn.

And can we talk about how struggling paycheck-to-paycheck-living Liez could afford to support Jakeson? She doesn't have the money to send her kids to camp and has to rely on a rapist serial killer and his mother to help pay her medical bills, since apparently she has no kind of health insurance, but she had the money to feed and clothe a stranger, pay for his toiletries, the additional electricity he consumed, etc? 

[dubbel zout]

Liz isn't the only one who's had wonky money issues, but the writers seem to saddle her with them more often than others. And don't even get me started on a nurse, employed by a hospital, who has no health insurance.

[Oracle42]

2 hours ago, Darklazr said:

When did Elizabeth send her boys away to keep Jake Doe?!  

During RC's embarrassing "mob war" between Julian and Sonny,  Jake was working for Julian and tried to push Liz away to protect her from Teh Dangers. The next day, Liz told him that she'd sent her children away because she wasn't going to let him push her away again.

It was quite gross and wouldn't have been necessary if TIIC allowed Lucky to have partial custody. 

Edited November 30, 2016 by Oracle42