tv echo May 10, 2016 Share May 10, 2016 (edited) FYI - I came across this site that lists various Arrow podcasts. The following four podcasts appear to be the most active and they each discussed 420... Arrow AfterBuzz TV Aftershow (48:30)https://player.fm/series/arrow-afterbuzz-tv-aftershow-171260 -- I found this podcast to be lively. They were generally upbeat about 420. They didn't like Andy's egging Diggle on with threats to his family like a classic villain. They liked that Felicity was so good at gambling. They also brought up the idea that Felicity would be the one to fight Darhk because she brings the light, but then mentioned that Oliver is the one with the magical tattoo. They liked that O&F didn't suddenly get back together, but they fully expect them to reunite eventually. They likened Malcolm's new fake hand to Coulson's fake hand. They said that it was Diggle's turn "to carry the idiot ball". They advocated the family you choose over biological ties. They loved Lyla and her relationship with Diggle, thought they really acted like a married couple with a long history. They made fun of Alex taking "multivitamin" pills provided by his boss. The dome made them think of Convergence. They said that Thea is now separated from the team and no one knows where she is. (Hmm... but didn't Felicity put trackers on every member of Team Arrow, so they should be able to find Thea?) They agreed that Arrow should not try to be like Flash. Warning: they discussed a spoiler casting call for S5 near the end of this podcast. Green Justice: An Arrow Podcast (01:05:00)https://player.fm/series/green-justice-an-arrow-podcast -- This podcast was more low key. Jay and Josh spent some time recapping this episode. They thought the Genesis plot was not original. They thought the dome with its piped in music loop was like a "Disneyland for villains." They thought 420 was "good" and showed a lot of the Genesis plan, but were critical of how the plan was presented. They thought that there was too much "busywork" in intercutting the Diggle/Andy conversations and Diggle/Andy chase scenes, without sufficient "backbone". They thought the Lyla/Diggle relationship was stronger in this episode than in the past. However, one guy was critical of Lyla yelling at Diggle when he returned from being tortured by Andy. He was also critical of Lyla of putting the Rubicon in her body as the safest place to hide it, but the other guy disagreed. They were concerned for Diggle after killing his brother. They felt that Oliver has turned a corner and might now have to help Diggle. They thought that all of the decisions that all the team members have had to make lately have been tough decisions. They questioned the creation of a new character, Esrin Fortuna, rather than using an established comics character like Zatanna. One guy felt that Oliver "is not really a magic user" but is "a very street-level character" (like Hawkeye). "He's just a man with a bow and an arrow." But now he's a guy "who can channel this light inside of me". However, the other guy disagreed and loved this development because it was "something new and interesting". They thought the magic training lacked "training" and that they should've spent more time developing this over several weeks for Oliver. They thought it was interesting that "Olicity was two sides of the same coin" - light/dark, yin/yang complementing each other without necessarily being a couple. They liked the way Felicity was worked into the plot with Oliver without being part of a love story. They commented on some fan feedback: one fan said that "Laurel's death had zero impact on him" and that 420 was "one of the worst episodes" in terms of writing but that the last 10 minutes were the part he liked the most, with SA being the "bright spot" when he's in costume and repelling Darhk's magic. The podcasters disagreed that it was one of the worst episodes. One guy said that the fern was referenced again and that if they could get a new fern, that would be so great: "Season 5 would be spruced up amazingly if there was a fern". The other guy joked that his theory is that the fern is going to be the Big Bad in S5. Quiver: The Green Arrow Podcast (01:17:00)https://player.fm/series/quiver-the-green-arrow-podcast -- This podcast was drier and even more low key. Amanda and Mike thought the episode was alright but "kinda silly." They said there were three stories (and no flashbacks) which was "nice". They thought that 23 episodes is too much. They questioned bringing in the character of Esrin Fortuna. They said that The Flash is getting all these comics villains and characters on their show, while Arrow is now getting non-comics or made-up characters so that no one cares (unlike S1 where you got comics characters like the Huntress). They thought that every episode of Arrow just seems like this show is "lost". (I lost interest after about 20 minutes and stopped listening to this podcast.) ArrowCast (41:28)https://player.fm/series/arrowcast -- This podcast was difficult to listen to. These two guys mumbled a lot and were sometimes unintelligible. They started off being very critical of Felicity and how she treats Oliver. They just reminded me of two sulky schoolboys. (I stopped listening to this podcast after the first 10 minutes.) Edited May 10, 2016 by tv echo 5 Link to comment
way2interested May 10, 2016 Share May 10, 2016 3 minutes ago, tv echo said: FYI - I came across this site that lists various Arrow podcasts. The following podcasts were the ones that appeared to be still active and they discussed 420... Arrow AfterBuzz TV Aftershow (48:30)https://player.fm/series/arrow-afterbuzz-tv-aftershow-171260 -- I found this podcast to be lively. They were generally upbeat about 420. They didn't like Andy's egging Diggle on with threats to his family like a classic villain. They liked that Felicity was so good at gambling. They also brought up the idea that Felicity would be the one to fight Darhk because she brings the light, but then mentioned that Oliver is the one with the magical tattoo. They liked that O&F didn't suddenly get back together, but they fully expect them to reunite eventually. They likened Malcolm's new fake hand to Coulson's fake hand. They said that it was Diggle's turn "to carry the idiot ball". They advocated the family you choose over biological ties. They loved Lyla and her relationship with Diggle, thought they really acted like a married couple with a long history. They made fun of Alex taking "multivitamin" pills provided by his boss. The dome made them think of Convergence. They said that Thea is now separated from the team and no one knows where she is. [Hmm... but didn't Felicity put trackers on every member of Team Arrow, so they should be able to find Thea?] They agreed that Arrow should not try to be like Flash. Warning: they discussed a spoiler casting call for S5 near the end of this podcast. I honestly really like this panel and recommend it. I don't know why exactly. It's at least the one panel that I can go to without worrying about hearing a constant bashing of the show. They nitpick plot holes as much as this board does but never too harshly, and they look at Arrow first and foremost as a television show with its characters and execution when analyzing each episode. They joke a lot, but since I actually like their sense of humor, I don't ever really mind it. Plus their show with EK for 416 was so great. 2 Link to comment
TyranAmiros May 10, 2016 Share May 10, 2016 Steven Amell went on Quiver once, and I've listened to them a few times. Definitely big on the comics. It's not a bad resource for spotting easter eggs and the like, but the male host really has a chip on his shoulder about how things should be from the comics. I wouldn't recommend it to fans of Felicity or Olicity in particular. Link to comment
kismet May 10, 2016 Share May 10, 2016 6 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said: The show pretty much all but told us Oliver would be in Russia next year. Why else have Poppy tell Oliver that should she die, he needs to go to Russia and tell her parents what happened to her? Yes, it's basically been told that he will be in Russia, that was not my point. I am want to know if SA/OQ will he be speaking Russian more frequently That is what I care about. He a spent year in Hong Kong and never really spoke the language. What's the point of going to "Russia" if nobody on the show speaks Russian from time to time? I'm hoping him dropping that line in, is him dropping hints that he either will be speaking Russian or wants to speak Russian on the show. 1 Link to comment
wonderwall May 10, 2016 Share May 10, 2016 2 hours ago, TyranAmiros said: Steven Amell went on Quiver once, and I've listened to them a few times. Definitely big on the comics. It's not a bad resource for spotting easter eggs and the like, but the male host really has a chip on his shoulder about how things should be from the comics. I wouldn't recommend it to fans of Felicity or Olicity in particular. Thanks for the warning :) 1 Link to comment
AyChihuahua May 11, 2016 Share May 11, 2016 And the bikini pic-fest has begun: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3585195/Bringing-Miami-heat-Arrow-star-Katie-Cassidy-sizzles-bikini-takes-dip-ocean-friend.html Link to comment
bijoux May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 3 hours ago, Velocity23 said: 3 hours ago, AyChihuahua said: And the bikini pic-fest has begun: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3585195/Bringing-Miami-heat-Arrow-star-Katie-Cassidy-sizzles-bikini-takes-dip-ocean-friend.html They're late. I think she's already in London. I guess they had more famous people on the beach to cover earlier in the week. 1 Link to comment
looptab May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 AVClub's review: Arrow was great, then just deeply, deeply odd. Still mostly great, though. I'm quoting the parts where he comments on the show's approach to the nuke - I think he is freaking out about nothing. There are still two episodes left! Quote That was really close to being a damn good episode of Arrow, probably one of the best of the season. Sure, there are some issues you could reasonably take with some of the plotting—the whole business with Lance and Donna just about makes sense, but there’s a wonky familiarity to it that feels like we’re entering a story more than halfway through—but overall, “Monument Point” is a testament to how much the show benefits when Team Arrow truly, properly has its hands full. With no time left to brood, Oliver remains focused solely on the mission at hand, which makes his occasional deviations to counsel Diggle and Felicity’s Jonathan Pryce-looking dad all the more meaningful. Felicity too is cut loose here, and as much as the whole Palmer Tech storyline ran its course a half-dozen episodes back, I’m not going to quibble too much with a plot that pushes her attention away from Oliver and onto alternately saving the world and dealing with her untrustworthy father. “Monument Point” is a classic Arrow endgame episode with a heist thrown in for good measure, and Thea gets her own solid little subplot with Malcolm, Anarky, and her brainwashed hunk of a cutthroat political operative. This is all good stuff! [...]All of which is to say, fine, go ahead Arrow, nuke a town. But if you’re going to do that, then spend some time with it. Sit with it. As terrifying as a powered-up Damien Dahrk might be, that reveal could be left for another episode, or at least placed on equal footing with Havenrock’s destruction. [...]But that doesn’t let Arrow off the hook for zipping past the town’s destruction, with neither Diggle nor Oliver showing any indication they’re aware of what just happened. Just to be clear, I don’t have an issue with any of this out of some moral concern. Arrow doesn’t show nuclear devastation the proper respect, but we can talk about that in strictly narrative terms. This is an episode marked by quick, shocking developments, ranging from Felicity’s firing to Alex’s death. Havenrock’s destruction is several orders of magnitude greater than what happens to Alex, but it isn’t given that weight in the story, and that makes everything else that happens feel less significant. [...]“Monument Point” is a big, crazy episode—how could an episode with that Thea storyline thrown in not be?—yet it’s meticulously constructed and smartly paced right up to the moment Havenrock’s destruction just kind of overwhelms everything and throws it all off-balance.[...] I don’t imagine Havenrock will be soon forgotten—this is likely going to shape Felicity’s character arc for a good long while—but this is, in an absolute sense, the biggest, worst thing that’s ever happened in the present-day Arrow universe, so it’s just odd for it be this rushed. We’ve reached a point, after a misfiring third season and an improved but still meandering fourth, where Arrow is going to have a fragile relationship with its audience for the foreseeable future, where any big creative decision is appraised not just in terms of “How well does it work?” but also “Does the creative team actually know what they’re doing here?” That’s an awfully meta way to be thinking about a show, but it’s hard not to reach that point after Arrow’s frequent narrative cul-de-sacs and ineffectual storytelling choices. The good news is that most of “Monument Point” represents Arrow at its best, and maybe a misjudged, bonkers swing for the fences like nuking Havenrock—or, more precisely, treating the nuking of Havenrock like it’s just another plot beat—is the price we pay for an Arrow that is otherwise confident in its storytelling and refreshingly light on angst. Hell, Oliver doesn’t blame himself for anything even once! This episode often recalls the best parts of the first two seasons’ endgames, as the stakes got bigger and the action got bolder. Maybe one thing tonight was a little too big and a little too bold. But far too much caution and repetitiveness in the show’s storytelling, I think I can deal with that. Also, this paragraph makes me think he needs to change pusher cause the stuff he is smoking is not good: Quote Thea’s subplot tonight only confirms my longstanding contention that Willa Holland is the best and more than capable of being the new protagonist. So, just as a crazy hypothetical: Let’s say we split Oliver and Thea and give them both a show of their own. Do you spin Thea off, give her Arrow and do something new with Oliver, who I’d argue could benefit from a change of scenery? Perhaps you even put one of them on the next season of Legends Of Tomorrow, which could certainly benefit from one of them. I kind of like sending Oliver off to Legends for at least a half-season and radically restructuring Arrow around Thea for a bit. But then I’m a bit of a madman. 1 Link to comment
bijoux May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 When was the nuking shrugged off? Felicity was definitely shaken and while Lyla is both a pragmatist and comes from Amanda Waller's school, she put it into perspective but didn't diminish it. I certainly got the impact even if it was a town we've never heard of before. Alex's death on the other hand was more of an, oh. Okay, what's next? While I do agree WH is good in the role, if often underwritten, I can't say I understand that last quoted bit at all. 6 Link to comment
looptab May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) 12 minutes ago, bijoux said: When was the nuking shrugged off? Felicity was definitely shaken and while Lyla is both a pragmatist and comes from Amanda Waller's school, she put it into perspective but didn't diminish it. I certainly got the impact even if it was a town we've never heard of before. Alex's death on the other hand was more of an, oh. Okay, what's next? While I do agree WH is good in the role, if often underwritten, I can't say I understand that last quoted bit at all. Right? I mean, of course Oliver and Diggle didn't react to it, they weren't there! They still don't know! It wasn't a "rushed plot point" but rather a cliffhanger, IMO: the nuke hit and DD got his powers: what next? The bit about Thea, this reviewer has been going on and on about how much he likes Willa as Thea, and hey, I don't disagree. But from that to saying she should become the new protagonist and ship Oliver to Legends..uh, how about no. (Obviously I'm ignoring the logistics and likelihood of that actually happening - which we discussed a while back when someone suggested Thea should be sent to LoT - I'm just taking issue with him even making the suggestion, even if he did put a disclaimer of "crazy speculation". JUST NO.). Edited May 12, 2016 by looptab 6 Link to comment
Midnight Lullaby May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 I thought the nucking had a bigger emotional impact because both Lyla and Felicity were so stoic and solemn. It was such a grave moment that people acting in a melodramatic way, sobbing on the floor like it happens all the time in a dramatic scene would have diminished its impact IMO. Also Lyla is a soldier, her reaction was absolutely on point. They could have shown Oliver and Dig's reactions if they wanted I guess but I didn't even realize they didn't because I was honestly shocked about what just happened. It was Alex's death that fell flat for me, I wasn't even sure if he was dead at first. 10 Link to comment
looptab May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) Noel Kirkpatrick's review at Tv.com's: (I'm so glad I enjoy his reviews again - last season I wanted to smack him every week, but now I can't help but agreeing with most of his points. He too talks about the nuke, and is wary as well, but for a way more founded reason). Quote With only three episodes left in the season, Arrow kicked things into gear with "Monument Point." This is an odd thing to say considering that killing Laurel should've been the thing that did it, but taking the time to let Laurel's death (and killing Andy) ripple out (wisely, even if not all together convincingly) meant that the show needed to just pump the brakes a smidge. Now, however, they get to floor it. Arrow flooring it is Arrow at its strongest. While last season's endgame suffered from, well, being incredibly dull and emotionally hollow, Seasons 1 and 2 showed that as Arrow plunges into its finales, it revels in being able to go full-blast. All the stuff that felt like stalling and all the (somewhat ham-fisted) piece-moving and set up begins to fall away because the show has momentum (finally) and begins to pay off the set up that was done what seemed like a lifetime ago in weekly TV time. Arrow's finales have almost always ended up feeling like multi-part episodes, and I don't think Season 4 is going to be any different. "Monument Point" was a really good example of Arrow just going for it. [...]Really, everything after the battle outside the data center was just icing because that would've been just been the episode at any other point in the season. Even then, it wouldn't have been on this scale. That battle outside the data center would've been inside the data center with some tarps and scaffolding (because every building in Star City is in need of repair), and Brick wouldn't have even been there; it would've just been Murmur. Instead, Arrow just went all out, brought Vinnie Jones back to do his Vinnie Jones thing, and turned it into a battle between the Ghosts, Brick, Murmur, Oliver, Diggle, and A.R.G.U.S. The nice thing about all of this was that it wasn't just stuff happening as a delaying action so we could get to the big showdown, nuke a city, and then find Darhk's magic clubhouse underneath city hall (I always knew Star City was a Hellmouth). These were events that led up to it instead, even if plenty of it was contrived for the sake of the episode. I mean, where was Curtis to just help them get the processor? And, boy, Anarky had an easy time getting his way into H.I.V.E.'s dome. In between the fighting and explosions, "Monument Point" still managed to squeeze in some character-focused moments that had varying degrees of success on a character level, but they managed to be pretty solid on an entertainment level. I'll admit that while I enjoyed Felicity and Noah at odds, the angst around Noah and Felicity's father issues never really grabbed me, even if helped to shade Felicity as a character (something she needed). To make sure things kept moving, "Monument Point," sidestepped the angst in favor of Felicity just being exasperated and Noah (and Tom Amandes) just having a grand time with the reversal of fortune he was experiencing. And given everything else that was going on in the episode, not having a lot of father-daughter bonding conversations was good for all us. Less successful, if only because it stuck out like a sore thumb, was the Donna and Quentin subplot. It amounted to two scenes, but they were two scenes from a totally different episode. I liked both scenes, don't get me wrong, and I'm glad that the show wanted to acknowledge Oliver's proclamation about how being the Black Canary would have some sort of an impact—but nothing about the DA's office, I guess!—but they didn't have much business being in this episode. The justification for the plot's presence was likely to establish a tiny parallel to the Felicity and Noah stuff: A father doing right by his daughter because he loves her, no matter what. It's a very small flourish, but probably an unnecessary one. So there's one last big thing to discuss, and it's not Thea's time in the dome (that's in the notes because it was diverting and I've come to love the whole Anarky ridiculousness of "Mommy," but I'm also tired of listening to Malcolm declare his much he cares about Thea). No, it's the whole nuking of a city. [...]I'm just very antsy about this because I don't really trust Arrow to fully address the fact that its heroes nuked a city to spare another city. I think the show will likely work through it via Felicity's guilt about it (or I hope it does), but like with its refusal to truly engage in Star City's woes, the ramifications of a nuclear weapon from Russia being launched against a U.S. city feels like something that could be swept under the rug. Like, Lyla will probably be given a line of dialogue about having spoken to the president and everyone's cool (or as cool as they can be) about tens of thousands of people dying as a result of H.I.V.E.'s hijacking an A.R.G.U.S. computer program and almost ending the world. I don't expect this to be solved this season since there's just not enough time, but I want it to be addressed next season in some sustained way beyond the character. [...] I wouldn't want this possible overstep to tarnish and otherwise entertaining episode. – So, right, the Thea stuff! It was good, like I said. This discussion regarding Thea being at the mercy of some dude is an interesting one that I want to mull on a bit because it was too on the nose here for it not to be something for the show to come back to. I did like Malcolm's awareness that Darhk's plan was basically his plan in Season 1, so hopefully the show finds something different for its Season 5 big bad to do next year. – Also: poor Alex. We hardly knew ye. No, seriously, we hardly knew ye. Poor Parker Young. – Oliver and Diggle driving home this darkness in Diggle and Oliver trying to save him thing. I'm ready to see this play out. Edited May 12, 2016 by looptab 3 Link to comment
tv echo May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) I thought the A.V. Club review was mostly pretty positive about 421 (his one criticism was premature before watching the next episode) and I did like this part of his review: Quote ... I’m guessing there’s going to be a contingent of viewers who are going to criticize how the show makes the nuclear blast all about Felicity, because this is a season where far too many things have revolved around some combination of Oliver and Felicity. Honestly, I don’t have as much of a problem with that, because it’s just good storytelling to center the latest tragedy on the main characters.... Edited May 12, 2016 by tv echo 1 Link to comment
tv echo May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) Collider's positive review of 421 (rated it 4 stars Very Good)... ‘Arrow’ Recap: “Monument Point” – The Fall of Jericho BY DAVE TRUMBORE 10 HOURS AGOhttp://collider.com/arrow-recap-monument-point/ Quote As far as my TV memory is concerned, I can’t remember another show detonating a nuclear missile in a populated area since the 2006 show, Jericho. Perhaps that’s what it took for the writers of The CW’s Arrow to shake the superhero series out of its Season 4 funk. Was it the threat of nuclear annihilation (and the added bonus horror of the resultant death powering up Damien Darhk to near-god levels) that added a palpable sense of tension and high stakes to this episode? Or was it the skillful handling of pacing and dynamic action by episode director Kevin Tancharoen? I’m of the opinion that “Monument Point” succeeded as a combination of this extreme plot point and a fresh point of view from an experienced director. Tancharoen may not have Kevin Smith’s renown or fanbase, but I actually enjoyed the former’s Arrow episode more than the latter’s hour of The Flash, this week. (YMMV) However, he’s quickly making a name for himself in fan-driven circles thanks to his experience on both DC and Marvel TV properties, as well as his own popular Mortal Kombat web series. So what made this episode so effective? Well, for one thing, the brief, hectic flashback scenes actually connected (loosely) to the goings on in the present.... Meanwhile, at the Missile Attack Warning Center in Kaliningrad, Russia… Tonight’s opening scene might be a glimpse of where we’re headed in Season 5, but whether the Russian homeland will be seen in flashbacks (probably) or some sort of contemporary result of this episode’s events (less likely) remains to be seen.... But where one evil computer hacker looks to wreak havoc on the world by bringing about nuclear winter, another team of hackers–the father/daughter pair of Felicity and Noah Kuttler, a.k.a. The Calculator–does their damnedest to prevent it. I actually rather liked the chemistry between the two as Emily Bett Rickards not only came up against someone she couldn’t outsmart in Tom Amandes, but it was also someone whose respect she desired to earn, whether she can admit that to herself or not. Let’s be clear, I don’t trust Noah, and neither should Team Arrow; I’m fully convinced that he managed to copy the code to Felicity’s Curtis’ quantum subliminal processor at Palmer Tech even though he said he didn’t. To what end, I have no idea, but it’s too juicy a plot point to pass up. * * * ... Yes, against all odds, Anarky returns as Alexander Calvert’s Lonnie Machin shows up in the safe zone of Tevat Noah (Biblical Hebrew for Noah’s Ark).... * * * ... Another surprising moment occurred between the Green Arrow and the Calculator, both of whom live double lives and have failed Felicity on more than one occasion. It was a curious little almost-father-in-law/son-in-law moment, but wisely they didn’t linger on it. There were more important things to deal with. Edited May 12, 2016 by tv echo Link to comment
tv echo May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) IGN's mostly positive review of 421... ARROW: "MONUMENT POINT" REVIEW JESSE SCHEEDEN 11 MAY 2016http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/05/12/arrow-monument-point-review Quote Say what you will about the current quality of Arrow relative to its first two seasons, but never have the stakes leading up to a season finale been this dire. It’s not just Star City that faces destruction at the hands of a power-hungry villain; now it’s the entire world that stands at the brink of nuclear annihilation. Those stakes, along with a healthy dose of butt-kicking, helped this episode overcome its weaker elements. As Felicity pointed out, “Monument Point” was basically a Greatest Hits compilation of Season 3 and 4-era Arrow villains. This one episode brought back Tom Amandes as Noah Kuttler/The Calculator, Vinnie Jones as Brick, Adrian Glynn McMorran as Murmur and even Alexander Calvert’s Lonnie Machin/Anarky. That’s a lot of villainy to juggle in one hour. It’s to the writer’s credit that these characters were worked into the plot in a pretty organic manner. The one villain who did seem to get the short shrift this week was Damien Darhk. Aside from two brief appearances book-ending the episode, Darhk mostly sat out this week’s conflict. A lack of Darhk is always a bad thing, but it seemed especially strange to see the B-team hog the spotlight at this late stage. * * * It did seem a little strange that, throughout the whole Felicity/Calculator storyline, Curtis never once put in an appearance.... * * *One thing this episode had plenty of was terrific action scenes. Credit that to director Kevin Tancharoen, who made his Arrow debut tonight after tackling several episodes of The Flash and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Tancharoen is also the mind behind the Mortal Kombat: Legacy, which gives him a pretty strong pedigree when it comes to costumed fighters pounding the snot out of one another. It’s tough to pick a favorite among the many standout fight scenes this week, though Ollie battling the Palmer Tech security guards in the stairwell was definitely up there. There were also multiple cool clashes with Brick and Murmur, as well as a violent confrontation between Thea and Anarky (the latter of whom still knows his way around a three-section staff). ... But the larger issue this week is that Thea’s storyline banked too heavily on relationships that haven’t been properly developed this season. I don’t really buy the idea that Lonnie shares a personal connection to Thea or that he would consider her to be his “mother.” Nor am I that invested in the romance between Thea and Alex. That proved to be a significant problem when Alex was seemingly killed by Lonnie. He’s a two-dimensional love interest who turned out to be a brainwashed villain. No great loss. * * * ... Felicity and her father managed to halt HIVE’s nuclear strike for now, but at the cost of tens of thousands of innocent lives. There’s no way that won’t take a huge toll on Felicity in the same way Diggle killing his brother has taken on him. It’s funny to think that the first season ended with a few hundred lives being lost as the ultimate result of Merlyn’s undertaking, and now the deaths of thousands is just the opening salvo in Darhk’s master plan. How much worse will this long night become before dawn finally breaks? Edited May 12, 2016 by tv echo Link to comment
tv echo May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) Den of Geek's positive review of 421... Arrow: Monument Point Review Review Kayti Burt 5/11/2016 at 9:57PMhttp://www.denofgeek.com/us/tv/arrow/255321/arrow-monument-point-review Quote Arrow just finaggled its nonsensical plot into an action-driven episode with tangible (albeit ridiculously high) stakes and it was totally unexpected. Sure, the flashbacks were dull as ever, but the writing, direction, and humor in most of this episode was Arrow circa-season 1 or season 2 stuff. Which is to say: really great. Maybe it was the whittling down to the original Team Arrow. Maybe it was the decision to film fight scenes in the light. Maybe the Arrow's writers room has acquired some kind of idol that they've been sacrificing marshmallow peeps to in exchange for a cohesive plot. Whatever the explanation, the Arrow I love is back. (You know, at least until next week?) * * *By bringing Felicity together with both of the parents to explore the familial dynamics, Arrow channeled the Arrow of yesteryear to give us some relatable character interaction that has so been missing on this show since it started adding elements like evil wizards and red-eyes to Nanda Parbat. Felicity has long been the most consistently entertaining part of this show, but her character has been bogged down in underdeveloped and/or convoluted relationship drama too often over the last two seasons. (I'm a fan of the Olicity dynamic, but it works so much better when it is integrated organically into the Team Arrow plot, rather than given its own secret son storylines to react to.) In tonight's episode, Felicity was the star. She appreciated her mother, had #complicated feelings about her father, and saved the world. Unfortunately, that last one came at a high price... * * * To be fair, it wasn't her fault. Faced with the decision to kill millions of people in Monument Point versus tens of thousands of people in a smaller town, she chose the later. (Apparently, putting it down further away from a settlement was not an option.) This ending was an effective way to up the stakes of the game — Team Arrow, even when working together, doesn't always come away with a win — but give Felicity's character a really interesting character moment. Felicity is obviously devastated by this moment. She saved the world, but she couldn't save everyone. No doubt this will affect her moving forward, perhaps spurring a reconciliation with Oliver and/or her father. Whatever happens, Arrow hasn't been able to pull off this level of moral ambiguity and the theme of the burden of having countless lives in one superhero's hands since the season 2 finale. It's telling that this moment belongs to Felicity. We've seen Oliver struggle with this kind of terrible responsibility before. It's become redundant. But compassionate, empathetic, optimistic Felicity who is so used to working things out in the end comes up against the limits of even her own massive intelligence and skill? That's new and fascinating. Sometimes, life isn't fair — even for superheroes. * * * Meanwhile, on what feels like a completely different show (the screen adaptation of a young adult dystopian novel, if I had to choose), Thea is still stuck with her brainwashed boyfriend. Given that Alex didn't really have a personality before he got brainwashed, it's kind of hard to tell anything is amiss.... * * * The direction in this episode was so good. From the fluid transitions to the fully-lit action sequences, Arrow hasn't looked this good in awhile — and you better believe good direction makes plot holes and underdeveloped character motivation easier to forgive. (Just ask Sherlock.) Edited May 12, 2016 by tv echo 5 Link to comment
tv echo May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) Vulture's mixed review of 421... Arrow Recap: Daddy Lessons By Jenny Raftery May 12, 2016 9:33 a.m.http://www.vulture.com/2016/05/arrow-recap-season-4-episode-21.html Quote There were a lot of elements to love in this week’s episode — multiple action sequences, the return of Felicity’s father, Oliver going incognito as ... Oliver-in-a-hat — but the hurried pacing and dialogue rarely allowed time to take pleasure in those moments. And, yes, I realize that “Monument Point” is all about Team Arrow working against the clock to save the world from nuclear destruction, but there’s got to be a more palatable way to create we’re-running-out-of-time! tension than an entire show’s worth of rapid-fire delivery. As a viewer, I found it exhausting instead of exhilarating. Let’s recap. * * * Meanwhile, in the Sewer Ark, Thea gets a not-so-surprising visit from Malcolm, who explains Darhk’s Genesis plan to Thea. While I totally buy that Malcolm would find a way to compare Genesis to his earthquake plan, I find it difficult to swallow Thea’s reaction to this news. After Malcolm explains to Thea that the world above her is going to be annihilated by nuclear weapons, Thea’s only concern is whether Alex is okay. (Um, Thea, what about your brother and vigilante besties above the sewer? Not curious how they’ll turn out?) ... (Alex has been such a blank slate this season that he’s really the ideal brainwashing victim.) ... Malcolm tells Thea that he knows about her and Anarky’s “connection” and urges her to use that to try and stop him. Malcolm can be such a cheat sheet for this show. Need information conveyed or passed on? Let’s bring in Malcolm. ... When Felicity heads there to retrieve it, she’s coldly informed that the board of directors voted to terminate her as CEO. To make matters worse, she’s wearing the world’s ugliest coat. Seriously, what did Emily Bett Rickards do to the costume department that day? Is there some plot reason for all of those grommets? Will she be picked up in the season finale by a large crane? * * *It’s a brief scene, but Rickards’ performance, as Felicity deals with the consequences of destroying Havertown, was so moving. I’m excited to see how this choice affects Felicity in the future. Dig to Oliver: “You’re the last person on Earth to lecture someone about lying to the people they love.” The Dig/Oliver scenes and the Arrow’s scene with Kuttler were highlights for me this episode. With so much action and technical plot points, these more human and emotional connections were welcome breathers. I loved that, even though Oliver can’t wear his Arrow suit on a mission, he still uses his Arrow voice. * * * I enjoy the Speedy version of Thea, but her scenes with Malcolm feel too repetitive. Even the dialogue seems to acknowledge as much. Edited May 12, 2016 by tv echo 2 Link to comment
tv echo May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) BuddyTV's positive review of 421... 'Arrow' Recap: Felicity and the Calculator Try to End Darhk's Apocalypse Wednesday, May 11, 2016 Derek Staufferhttp://www.buddytv.com/articles/arrow/arrow-recap-can-felicity-and-h-59943.aspx Quote They go not to Flash, Firestorm or literally any of the other numerous people they know with literal superpowers. Instead, they turn to Felicity's father, Noah Kuttler, a villain with the worst name ever, The Calculator. Okay, so it doesn't sound impressive, but Tom Amandes is awesome in the role. Plus, the relationship that Felicity has with her father is wonderfully twisted and it makes this episode "Monument Point" easily one of the most entertaining and tense episodes of Arrow ever. * * * It's finally happened, there's something Felicity can't hack. If Team Arrow wants to stop Darhk's plans to create a totally nuclear meltdown, they are going to need Noah Kuttler. Apparently, Noah is literally the only hacker in the entire multiverse who can do this too... * * * ... Things are getting really creepy in the underground bunker that Darhk plans to rebuild humanity from and not just because things are bound to get really incestuous in a few generations. Everyone is wearing bland jumpsuits and drinking Darhk's delusional kool-aid, including Thea's bland boyfriend, Alex. Though I guess being brainwashed by a maniacal genocidal wizard and his wife does make Alex slightly more interesting. Maybe. * * * Thea is no longer that person and Anarky is at the level of crazy that he is now calling Thea, "mommy," so, we aren't going to take his word for anything. Thea starts whipping Anarky's ass but he shocks her with a gigantic electricity weapon (which by the way is super awesome). As Thea is momentarily incapacitated, Alex wakes up, buth then Anarky shocks him real good in the heart. Thea gets back up, knocks out Anarky and then rushes over to check on Alex. It's unclear if Alex is dead or alive, but it's clear to me that I don't care in the slightest either way. * * * Okay, flashback break. I know, I don't really care either, but it seems vaguely important.... Tiana starts to scream in pain. The idol is now taking a hold of her body and her eyes glow yellow. Yeah, I really don't care about if she is now dead or "alive." * * *Back to the things and the people I do care about living. Felicity is working with her father to destroy all the missiles. Sadly, Brick and Murmur find them. This means that Oliver, Dig and Lyla, who is controlling ARGUS, must protect the two hackers as they try to save the world. Again, Brick and Murmur are pretty much useless, or at least useless in the sense that Oliver and Dig don't have too big a problem defeating Brick. There's a lot of kicking and spinning involved, which looks really cool as far as fight scenes go, but Brick does pretty much nothing. (Right now, "Season 3 Brick" is weeping somewhere since it took a literal army to take him down in that season.) * * * ... There is no way to stop it and it is heading to a major city: Monument Point. Felicity decides to hack the GPS on the nuke and then sets it off course from a direct hit with the city. The nuke crashes and blows up a town of thousands, but it is a lot smaller casualties than the millions it would have been if it hit Monument Point. This is still super dark and I kind of love that Arrow is willing to go there. Edited May 12, 2016 by tv echo Link to comment
tv echo May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) Bustle's short article on 421 (I'm not convinced that Felicity intentionally targeted Havenrock, or whether she just threw off the GPS coordinates away from Monument Point and the nuke happened to hit Havenrock)... Decision On 'Arrow,' But Can She Ever Forgive Herself? KELLY SCHREMPH 10 hours agohttp://www.bustle.com/articles/160342-felicity-made-a-fatal-decision-on-arrow-but-can-she-ever-forgive-herself Quote I have never felt more sympathy for Felicity Smoak than I do right now. Because as much as she tried (and nearly succeeded) in taking Rubicon down, there was still one lonely missile that managed to get launched... and it was headed right toward the city of Monument Point. (Hence this week's episode title.) And while there was no way to stop the missile from landing somewhere, it was possible to make it hit a less populated target, thanks to a little GPS realignment program. This forced Felicity to make an impossible decision on Arrow — where should she re-route the missile instead? Unfortunately, that terrible fate fell to a place called Havenrock, where the number of casualties would be sufficiently less severe. The good news is that the plan worked. The millions of people currently living in Monument Point were saved from certain death. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that Felicity basically had to sentence other innocent lives to death and I'm worried that she may never recover from the guilt. It was going to be a lose-lose situation either way, and she did what she thought she had to by sacrificing thousands in order to save millions. But it's a heavy burden she'll have to bear for the rest of her life nonetheless. * * *Don't get me wrong, I don't blame her in any way for what happened. In fact, I've never wanted to comfort her more for the impossible choice she was forced to make. But I just know that she's going to beat herself up over this because she's a good person who cares about people. I bet she would've sacrificed herself to save them all if she could have. Let's just hope that in time, she'll be able to forgive herself and realize that there's only one person responsible for all of this unnecessary death and destruction: Damien Darhk. Edited May 12, 2016 by tv echo 1 Link to comment
tv echo May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) 411mania's mixed review of 421... Arrow 4.21 Review – ‘Monument Point’ May 11, 2016 | Posted by Anthony Falcohttp://411mania.com/movies/arrow-4-21-review-monument-point/ Quote Arrow opens up with the Rubicon in action, which was actually quite shocking. I assumed they were going to hold the missile launches until the final two episodes, but they actually move quickly with the nuclear holocaust storyline. Of course, they did drag the launches out until the climax – adding some oddly placed character moments in this action heavy episode – but I am just happy I did not have to wait a few more weeks. * * * At the same time, this episode tries to balance several sub-plots along the way: all of them only slowdown ‘Monument Point’ and honestly feel out of place. First, there is Thea’s arc, which does not really belong here – it is as if the writers had to fill time, so they bring back Lonnie Machin and kill off Alex. ... To be honest, he will not be missed and has been a weak character throughout the entire season. On top of this, Captain Lance loses his job because Felicity’s mother will not let him lie on an affidavit: the viewer gets it, she hates liars. Yet he could have also done a lot of good for the city by being a cop: instead, he will likely lose his job. Finally, there is Diggle lying to his wife about killing Andy in self-defense – this one, more than the others, brings the show to a grinding halt, and it does not even payoff. There are other things that are more important right now – like a nuclear holocaust – but if you are going to bring it up, at least finish it. * * * After finding out where Noah is, Diggle and Oliver go after him, but both Brickwell and Hive are waiting for them. Probably the sharpest moment about tonight is the action: it comes with little surprise to see Kevin Tancharoen as the director – he helmed the famous Mortal Kombat web series, which was known for its amazing fight scenes. Yet even after they escape and Noah agrees to help, they still need the equipment to save the world. Unfortunately, Felicity has been fired, so they need to plan a heist: this was probably my favorite part of the night. And even though it is filled to the brim with robbery clichés, it is a visual blast – particularly the stairwell fight between Oliver and the security guards. Edited May 12, 2016 by tv echo Link to comment
tv echo May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) JoBlo's mostly negative review of 421 (gave it 6 out of 10 arrows) - I totally disagree... TV REVIEW: ARROW - SEASON 2 EPISODE 21 "MONUMENT POINT" 10 hours ago by: Alex Maidyhttp://www.joblo.com/movie-news/tv-review-arrow---season-2-episode-21-monument-point-248 Quote There comes a moment in tonight's episode of Arrow where Malcolm Merlyn describes Damien Darhk's master plan as being a lot like Merlyn's own plan back in season one. The only difference is that this is much bigger in scale. Well, bigger doesn't always mean better as the fourth season of Arrow is winding down on a fairly lackluster note. Darhk's magical powers have all been in service to his and Hive's plan code-named Genesis. And what exactly is Genesis? Well, it turns out that it is a way for Darhk to wipe out the majority of Earth's population with the plan to start over and build the world in his own image. It comes with an added bonus that his magical idol feeds his powers based on death and detonating hundreds of nuclear warheads should give him quite the supply of energy. * * * ... Noah covers his daughter and takes the bullet for her and Oliver arrives to take down Murmur. It is another expected moment of redemption after an hour full of Noah proclaiming that he is not the evil man his daughter thinks he is as he tries to make amends. Yeah, we get it, not every father on this show is terrible. Hell, we got a couple of incongruous scenes with Donna Smoak and Quentin Lance as they professed their love for each other while debating whether he should admit he knew Laurel was the Black Canary. Quentin remains a strong character who too often gets relegated to second tier status, something I am afraid will continue to happen now that both of his children are off the show. * * * This could have been such a great episode if not for the incredibly cliched and recycled elements we have seen before. Where The Flash has been succeeding has been in telling a story this season that was very different from the first. Arrow is once again telling the same formulaic "villain's master plan to destroy the city" plot that we have seen for four years. I am willing to bet that Oliver, who seemed to be shocked at the powers Darhk has possessed despite having seen the exact same abilities on Lian Yu, will use the same method for stopping Reiter and Taiana on Darhk. These flashbacks have been utterly useless but will somehow become vital for these final two episodes. With two more to go, I am wondering why this episode seemed to be the enaction of the Genesis plan as well as the failure unless there is more coming that we don't know about yet. I guess we will have to wait and see what comes next. Hopefully it isn't as anticlimactic as this episode. ETA: The Flash is only in its second season - and it spent most of its first season telling the same story every week (Barry confronts VOTW and gets beaten, Barry gets pep talk or runs faster, Barry beats VOTW). Arrow's second season was also very different from its first season, and it is now winding up its fourth season. Let's see how The Flash does in its fourth season. Edited May 12, 2016 by tv echo 5 Link to comment
tv echo May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) ScreenCrush's mixed review of 421... Review: ‘Arrow’ Goes Nuclear in Way-Overstuffed ‘Monument Point’ Kevin Fitzpatrick | 9 hours agohttp://screencrush.com/arrow-monument-point-review/ Quote Obviously, Arrow is no stranger to consequences; its first season finale killing hundreds in the activation of Malcolm Merlyn’s earthquake machine, or Season 2 sending the city into super-soldier riots, but the idea of Russia inadvertently nuking the United States (and not even in a finale!) is a pretty big one. If anything, I’d guess the idea means to weigh those 10,000 deaths on Felicity’s conscience in Season 5, rather than deal with the immediate consequences here, but I’ll at least credit “Monument Point” with an abundance of commitment. * * *“Monument Point” was a spectacularly busy episode overall, adding in an entire B-story of Thea and Malcolm dealing with Anarky’s return in the underground community, dealing with Felicity’s tenuous grasp on Palmer Technologies, and even breaking midway through for a mini heist mission* to retrieve necessary tech to stop Darhk’s plans. Even then, that’s only the present, as the flashbacks zipped right through further conflict with Baron Reiter to an already-telegraphed point of Taina winding up possessed by the idol. * * * I’m curious as to why “Monument Point” threw everything in the rapid pace it did, given that “greatest hits” returns like Brick or Thea’s final showdown with Lonnie could easily have been shifted to earlier episodes. Overloading the hour clearly cost a bit of thematic focus, even if the dramatic nuclear countdown has seemingly been brushed aside for a more pointed conflict with Damien Darhk, himself supercharged by what damage the missile did accomplish. * * * Since the nuke in question was launched from Russia, might we take that as another sign Season 5 will be spending a significant amount of time in the former Soviet Union? Edited May 12, 2016 by tv echo Link to comment
tv echo May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 Laura Hurley's CinemaBlend review of 421... Arrow Just Delivered Its Deadliest Episode Yet And Then Some BY LAURA HURLEY 9 HOURS AGO http://www.cinemablend.com/television/Arrow-Just-Delivered-Its-Deadliest-Episode-Yet-Then-Some-137387.html Quote The worst thing about the catastrophe isn’t even the loss of lives. The worst thing is that Havenrock being destroyed was as close to a legitimate win as the good guys could have gotten in “Monument Point.” Damien Darhk’s original plan was for the entire world to be consumed when the Rubicon override protocol was used to launch the nukes from every arsenal on the planet, and it took all the hacking skills of Felicity and her computer genius villain father to stop the apocalypse. Unfortunately, one warhead still managed to launch and was set to explode in the city of Monument Point. Felicity thought fast and reprogrammed the warhead’s GPS so that the millions of people in Monument Point would be spared, but it was at the cost of Havenrock. Tens of thousands died in the episode, but billions were spared. Huzzah? * * * Unfortunately for Team Arrow, Felicity won’t be the only person weighed down by the tens of thousands of souls. Oliver raised the issue in the beginning of the episode that Damien Darhk’s magic is powered by death and that even a single nuclear explosion in a populated area could give him enough power to enact his evil schemes to his heart’s delight. Judging by his glee at the end of the episode when Oliver and Digg discovered him in the secret city hall magic chamber, Havenrock's relatively limited population was enough. * * * For a bummer of an episode, “Monument Point” was actually a really solid hour of television that very effectively raised the stakes for the rest of Season 4.... 2 Link to comment
tv echo May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) jbuffyangel's in-depth review of 421... DISALLUSION: (MONUMENT POINT) ARROW 4X21 REVIEW jbuffyangel MAY 12, 2016 @ 04:45http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/144242235433/disallusion-monument-point-arrow-4x21-review Quote The Green Arrow told Noah Kuttler that a dual life is impossible. It doesn’t work. * * *I’d like to argue the dual life isn’t actually the reason Oliver lost Felicity. He didn’t lose her because of The Green Arrow. He lost her because of OLIVER, but that’s just details. The point is, Arrow just answered the premiere question in 4x21. Again. A big fat NO. Well that’s definitive. EXCEPT WE AREN’T IN THE FINAL EPISODE. ETA: Actually, like someone else said in the 421 thread, I also thought it was possible that "dual life" referred not to being Oliver and Green Arrow, but to being Oliver in Star City and Dad Oliver with his secret family in Central City. Edited May 12, 2016 by tv echo 4 Link to comment
tv echo May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) TV Fanatic's review of 421 (obviously, I disagree with her last comment about Donna)... Arrow Season 4 Episode 21 Review: Monument Point Lisa Babick at May 12, 2016 http://www.tvfanatic.com/2016/05/arrow-season-4-episode-21-review-monument-point/ Quote Daddy/daughter teams ruled the day on Arrow Season 4 Episode 21, though Oliver and Diggle (and Lyla too) did their fair share of butt-kicking to keep the bad guys down. * * *As perfect as Felicity is (and everyone knows it), it was refreshing to see her admit that hacking into rubicon was above her pay grade. She was willing to set aside her perfectness for the good of the whole and hunted down her dad to help her save the day. * * * Noah was more than willing to help out, not necessarily because he cared about the world as a whole; more because he cared about his daughter in the world. It was sort of touching, really. I liked that he jumped right into it, and I loved the banter between them when they broke into Palmer Tech to get the processor; something they had no choice in doing since Felicity got fired and Curtis wasn't around to help them. (It would have made everything so much easier, no? But what would the fun be in that?) Felicity wasn't too interested in the father-daughter bonding Noah was attempting, and considering the circumstances, she was right in pushing it off. But some of it has to be sticking in the back of her mind for later. Maybe her dad isn't so horrible after all? They certainly made a good team. And I liked that Noah was more interested in getting the job done than worrying about his bullet wound when Murmur breached the center. The fight scene outside was pretty intense, and I loved the looks Lyla and Diggle gave each other when it was almost all over. * * * But as hard as Felicity worked to stop the world's destruction, in the end she failed. Sure, it was only tens of thousands rather than millions, but people died. And no, it really wasn't her fault, but there's no way she's not going to take her failure to stop one missile to heart. * * * I'm a little curious as to how Darhk knew one of the missiles was going to hit. Did he just happen to be down in his secret lair admiring his statue when all the death mojo starting emanating from it? Or was he just waiting because he thought his thugs were going to stop Felicity and friends? * * * The world is on the brink of nuclear annihilation, and Oliver feels the need to call out Diggle for lying to Lyla? I realize you have to talk about something to take the edge off, but it didn't really seem like the right time. * * *The Donna/Lance scenes were pointless. Twenty one hours left to save the world and there aren't more important things to focus on? Besides, didn't it just yank you right out of the story? * * * Obviously Felicity got her brains from dad, because her mom is an idiot. Edited May 12, 2016 by tv echo Link to comment
tv echo May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) Yahoo! TV's review of 421... 'Arrow' Recap: Brand Nuke Day Robert Chan May 12, 2016https://www.yahoo.com/tv/arrow-recap-brand-nuke-day-110628364.html Quote Felicity and Noah aren’t the only father/daughter team; Thea is trapped in H.I.V.E.’s underground bunker (Terra Nova? Terok Nor? It’s so hard to tell with that echo) and must work with Malcolm to stop Lonnie Machin (Alexander Calvert), who is seeking revenge against Darhk by blowing up the underground city’s CO2 scrubbers. Machin has taken to calling Thea “Mommy” which seems like more of a Gotham move — that’s a city where mommy issues grow on trees — but it’s delightfully grotesque and adds a fun element to Thea’s relationship with Alex, the Stepford Wife. * * * Charlotte Ross gets to play a more dialed down Donna this week (does this portend her coming on as a series regular next season?), acting as Quentin’s conscience. He is asked to sign an affidavit that he knew nothing of Laurel’s activity as the Black Canary, but Donna’s hardline stance against lying prevents him from signing it. Since admitting he knew about his daughter’s vigilante activity will probably mean he’ll never be a cop again, maybe we’ll get to see the Smoak ‘n’ Lance Detective Agency next season? * * * It’s times like these that the theme song to Mystery Science Theater 3000 comes to mind: “Repeat to yourself, 'It’s just a show / I should really just relax’.” But, like the destroyed Glades — which are almost never mentioned after season 1 — season 5 of Arrow will probably almost never refer to the thermonuclear warhead that dropped just miles from a major metropolitan area. The United States got involved in a 15-year (and still going) war on terror because 3000 people were killed on September 11; here, Lyla estimates tens of thousands dead. Even with a full explanation that a shadowy terrorist organization was to blame, we already would have launched every ICBM we have at Russia and be living in the world of The 100 before the season finale. Edited May 12, 2016 by tv echo Link to comment
apinknightmare May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 15 minutes ago, tv echo said: ETA: Actually, like someone else said in the 421 thread, I also thought it was possible that "dual life" referred not to being Oliver and Green Arrow, but to being Oliver in Star City and Dad Oliver with his secret family in Central City. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what he was talking about. 5 Link to comment
Morrigan2575 May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 1 minute ago, apinknightmare said: Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what he was talking about. That's exactly what i thought. The dual lifestyle of OQ vs GA had no negative effect on their relationship because she was part of Team Arrow. I know people want to believe Oliver wasn't running back and forth to CC while Felicity was recovering (evern though both show and MG confirmed it) but I'm pretty sure Oliver having Dual Lives was Mommy's Friend Oliver in CC and Fiancé Oliver Queen in SC. 5 Link to comment
looptab May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) I know this has been a point of contention before, but since the show has never really addressed it, I'm choosing to believe Oliver wasn't going to Central City to visit his dumb kid. So, when he said that to Noah, I fully believe he did mean the Oliver/Green Arrow duality - just a few episodes ago he needed Laurel, of all people to point out to him that it wasn't because of this life they lead that Felicity broke up with him, but because of a decision he made. Now, since it was Laurel talking, he probably wasn't listening. So my headcanon is that either Oliver still hasn't understood why Felicity left him (and the show is weird with this - sometimes they bring up the lying,and he seems to know, sometimes they don't) or he is willfully choosing to ignore the real reason and blames it on being the Green Arrow because, why not. It worked for him before. Edited May 12, 2016 by looptab Link to comment
dtissagirl May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 THR elected Greg Berlanti TV producer of the year, then interviewed him about his entire career:TV Producer of the Year Greg Berlanti: "I Still Fight About Everything"http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/flash-arrow-producer-greg-berlanti-892417 1 Link to comment
Midnight Lullaby May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 1 minute ago, looptab said: I know this has been a point of contention before, but since the show has never really addressed it, I'm choosing to believe Oliver wasn't going to Central City to visit his dumb kid. So, when he said that to Noah, I fully believe he did mean the Oliver/Green Arrow duality - just a few episodes ago he needed Laurel, of all people to point out to him that it wasn't because of this life they lead that Felicity broke up with him, but because of a decision he made. Now, since it was Laurel talking, he probably wasn't listening. So my headcanon is that Oliver either still hasn't understood why Felicity left him (and the show is weird with this - sometimes they bring up the lying,and he seems to know, sometimes they don't) or he is willfully choosing to ignore the real reason and blames it on being the Green Arrow because, why not. It worked for him before. Except when Diggle asked him the reason for the break up he said it was because he lied to her about his kid. That's the reason and he acknowledged it. I'd like to share your belief but I can't when the writer and producer of the show says that is what happened, also it would make zero sense to refer to the kid as the most important person in Oliver's life if he saw him once. And it's possible MM found out because Oliver visited him that one time but it's way more realistic if he visited him more than once. 1 Link to comment
tarotx May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) The US Government is aware of how Rubicon worked. The US people will probably be angry and want heads but for the US to attack Russia knowing it had nothing to do with it? It's not the same as small troubled nations housing and supporting terrorist. I can see some issues going on with Russia season 5 though and perhaps that will be part of the present day story to correspond to a potential Bratva flashback storyline. And it was clearly the duality of how Oliver lives his life in general and not him being the Green Arrow. Oliver's main issue is he compartmentalizes his life. That was Central city - and here it's Star. Edited May 12, 2016 by tarotx 4 Link to comment
looptab May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 1 minute ago, Midnight Lullaby said: Except when Diggle asked him the reason for the break up he said it was because he lied to her about his kid. That's the reason and he acknowledged it. Yeah, I mentioned that sometimes they acknowledge the lying, and sometimes - like in that Laurel scene - Oliver blames it on the vigilante life. :) I know what Guggenheim said, but I like it so much better my way! :) Who knows, maybe in the next few episodes we'll get something more on this, but until that happens, my story is better for my ulcer. :) Link to comment
Chaser May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 6 minutes ago, dtissagirl said: THR elected Greg Berlanti TV producer of the year, then interviewed him about his entire career:TV Producer of the Year Greg Berlanti: "I Still Fight About Everything"http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/flash-arrow-producer-greg-berlanti-892417 If he was fired from GL, why was his name over everything? I don't understand that. He referred to Sara as The Original Black Canary. I guess he didn't get the PR line. Lol 1 Link to comment
tv echo May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) Also worth reading from the above THR interview with Greg Berlanti... Quote Did you have any hesitation about going back down that DC Comics road for TV? My only request [when we started on Arrow] was to let us do it our way because I was so heartbroken by what had happened [with the Green Lantern movie]. Being a part of something like that when you've loved those characters your whole life, and thinking you're not going to really get a chance to participate before you even start was very [tough]. Having to go every day to see whatever version of the film that they'd concocted at that point was a bit like having to buckle in and go drive to the same auto accident every day and get hit by the same car. Arrow had a major casualty this year, one that was extensively built up within the show. How has your sense of what the audience wants and can handle when it comes to grieving changed? Every year, by the end of the year, whether you're doing Walking Dead or you're doing a show like ours, characters are going to perish. That is part of the investment in the show. And of course, we've brought a few back because it's a comic book and we have all sorts of fun ways that we can do that. But people, particularly on Twitter, are very vocal. When I started on Dawson's, people were very passionate about who got together with whom, we'd get a box of mail once a month, and you'd look through it, and you'd be like, "Wow, OK, that person from prison is very passionate about whether Joey is with Pacey or with Dawson." And now, with Twitter, you don't know if it's just four people with 1,000 accounts. The thing I'd say is that obviously a character's death is going to be a really sensitive thing for somebody who's enjoyed a show and that actor, and we don't take any of them lightly. Edited May 12, 2016 by tv echo Link to comment
Midnight Lullaby May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 Just now, looptab said: Yeah, I mentioned that sometimes they acknowledge the lying, and sometimes - like in that Laurel scene - Oliver blames it on the vigilante life. :) I know what Guggenheim said, but I like it so much better my way! :) Who knows, maybe in the next few episodes we'll get something more on this, but until that happens, my story is better for my ulcer. :) Well I like your version better too, LOL! The problem is that since for dear old Guggenheim what Oliver did was no big deal and completely understandable I do believe what he said and since it was such a plot point the kid wasn't even acknowledged in the saddest moments of OQ's life compilation I doubt we will get more clarification. It's also fine for me because I honestly want to forget that even happened. ;) But I wouldn't want them to make Oliver regress to S3 with the problem of being the GA/OQ so I liked the reference to a dual life as I took it because acknowledging the problem is always the first step.. 1 Link to comment
NumberCruncher May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 Shorter Greg Berlanti: We know some people will be upset, but we made a business decision. 10 Link to comment
dtissagirl May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 22 minutes ago, Chaser said: If he was fired from GL, why was his name over everything? I don't understand that. It's a long and complicated thing -- Wikipedia explains it at length: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WGA_screenwriting_credit_system -- but basically, movie writing credits are decided by the Writers Guild of America, not the sucker who wrote it. Link to comment
apinknightmare May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 21 minutes ago, tv echo said: When I started on Dawson's, people were very passionate about who got together with whom, we'd get a box of mail once a month, and you'd look through it, and you'd be like, "Wow, OK, that person from prison is very passionate about whether Joey is with Pacey or with Dawson. Super curious about whether prisoners skewed Team Dawson or Team Pacey. 12 Link to comment
tv echo May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) Robert Dougherty's negative review of 421... Arrow S4: E21 – 'Monument Point' By Robert Dougherty May 12, 2016 08:30AM EDThttp://www.themovienetwork.com/review/arrow-s4-e21-monument-point Quote Now that Arrow has gotten Laurel's death out of the way and explained what Project Genesis is, the pieces are in place for one last trilogy to close out the season. Since this is basically part one of a three-part finale, it seems like Monument Point is a set up episode for bigger things most of the way. Even though it doesn't turn out like that in some aspects, it does wind up reinforcing just how much of this season has turned out to be a bigger waste of time. * * *First they paralyzed Felicity for no real reason other than to kill time, and to make her walk again only for the sole purpose of literally walking out on Oliver when she dumped him. Then of course, they broke Olicity up for absolutely no real reason, which is all the more obvious the more they refuse to actually address the issues that broke them up over and over again. And now it seems that Felicity's arc as CEO, and her supposed recent goal of using it to be a hero in the light, has been completely abandoned and finished for no real reason other than to stage a heist of her own technology in the middle of this episode. Yet again, any true promise of giving Felicity a real and potentially powerful arc of her own has been destroyed, just for the sake of a stupid plot line and pointless time wasting obstacle. And the pointlessness doesn't stop there in this episode. This really seemed like the last and final chance Arrow had this season to slow down and delve into Oliver and Felicity's real obstacles, before their inevitable reunion in the finale becomes utterly unconvincing and unearned. For a while, it actually looks like Monument Point is building towards that blessed event, especially when it is Donna Smoak's turn to catch and confront her own loved one over a potential lie. * * *Here is a couple [Quentin and Donna] with a Smoak in it that is actually shown talking about lies, sharing their burdens, and resolving it together while being all the stronger for it. In other words, this is the kind of Smoak related couple that Oliver and Felicity haven't been allowed to be for months, and not just because of the break up. For a while, there is a hope that such a parallel could open the door for Olicity to finally start trying to do the same here. As I sadly have to say one more time but probably not one last time, for all they are doing to try and make Oliver a hero of magical light, they have not once addressed the real and serious issue that destroyed Olicity and made him regress, namely his need to not let Felicity and others in when it really and truly counts. Quite honestly, they have not done one single thing to address that since the breakup, or to show that Oliver is actually fighting those demons and trying to change in that regard. * * *There is no heart to heart that rattles Oliver, except for one private exchange between him and Noah where he says leading a duel life doesn't work. Yet that doesn't lead to any revelations from Noah, or anything that would shake Oliver up in the slightest, and not just because they are working on stopping a nuclear holocaust at the time. * * * This isn't just an Olicity problem, as they also pretty much wasted time and a chunk of Thea's Season Four arc on Alex, who meets his not so tragic end during a battle with Anarky. But it is not so much a cause to mourn as a cause to take stock of how he was a waste of time too, with no real payoff and no worthwhile point at the end just like so many things this year. * * * Going nowhere is becoming the name of the game in the big picture of Arrow Season Four. Distracting us with the good things they did in Laurel's death, and with Oliver and Felicity starting to work together again, could only work for so long. It doesn't work when they spin their wheels and indulge in wasted plot lines and payoffs here, when it was basically one of their last chances to do something different. Now no matter what tears and emotions Stephen Amell and Emily Bett Rickards try to wring out in the next two weeks, there will be a massive asterisk to it unless there is a massive miracle. So instead of Oliver being rattled enough to finally make some real changes, he is stuck in place and probably won't get to change in the ways that should count until the finale. And instead of Felicity getting to rethink both Noah and Oliver, she is insultingly fired for no reason other than plot contrivances, and is now saddled with letting tens of thousands of people die in another city as a result of saving millions in Monument Point. * * *Monument Point is one big wasted chance and time killer, in lue of doing actual important things which would benefit these characters and this show. That may well be the final verdict for Season Four at this rate, as the apocalyptic Rubicon that is dangerously close to being crossed here isn't Damien Darhk's. If Arrow Season Four hasn't fully crossed it yet, it is now 90-95 percent of the way there at best. Edited May 12, 2016 by tv echo Link to comment
tarotx May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 I hope Robert Dougherty gives up the show for his own sanity. 7 Link to comment
looptab May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 1 minute ago, tarotx said: I hope Robert Dougherty gives up the show for his own sanity. LOL me too. 1 Link to comment
tv echo May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) For the same reason that Barry would've been useless in this scenario - they needed expert hackers (plus, CW budget)... ‘Arrow’ drops a nuclear bomb: Where is the military? BY CHRIS E. HAYNER AT 07:05 PM ON MAY 11, 2016http://zap2it.com/2016/05/arrow-monument-point-nuclear-bomb-military/ Quote It actually happened. Damien Darhk’s (Neal McDonough) plan to kill the world off came to pass on “Arrow” — sort of. After trying to launch an arsenal of nuclear weapons at the Earth, one of them was not only fired but actually made impact and wipes out tens of thousands of human lives. Why? It turns out a criminal, an IT person and two guys in Halloween costumes — those are the president’s words, not ours — just couldn’t get the victory this time, at least not entirely. * * *As Darhk and HIVE took control of the world’s arsenal of nuclear warheads though, one question came to mind: Why is this being left up to Team Arrow? Where’s the US military — the world’s entire military force? If the fate of the world is legitimately in the hands of Oliver Queen (Stephen Amell) and his band of misfits, we’re screwed. Their whole team hasn’t even made it out of this fight alive and Thea (Willa Holland) is in some underground “Pleasantville”-style bunker. Granted this is “Arrow,” so the Green Arrow will always be the one to save the day. The lack of an Army, the Marines, the Navy or even the FBI seems a bit strange. In the real world, the US has a projected 1,301,300 active members in the service, with an additional 811,000 in reserves. * * * What are the chances that over 2 million members of the U.S. armed forces couldn’t at least help Team Arrow topple Darhk and HIVE? They’re not very good. Edited May 12, 2016 by tv echo Link to comment
Chaser May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 6 minutes ago, tarotx said: I hope Robert Dougherty gives up the show for his own sanity. He has such grand expectations for Arrow. ARROW. 2 Link to comment
tv echo May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) Blastr's generally positive review of 421... Darhk's endgame begins, as all your favorite villains return in the latest Arrow Trent Moore Thu, May 12, 2016 8:58amhttp://www.blastr.com/2016-5-12/darhks-endgame-begins-all-your-favorite-villains-return-latest-arrow Quote Though Felicity is certainly a super hacker in her own right, she quickly realizes she’ll need the help of former Villain of the Week The Calculator (oh, and he’s also her father) to have any chance of stopping Darhk’s plan to fire off virtually every nuclear warhead on the planet. Felicity’s relationship with her dad has always been a point of dysfunction, and if it weren’t for the mountain of charisma Tom Amandes brings to the role, it might not have worked. But man, it really was great seeing these two get a chance to work side-by-side. An evil plan to nuke the world and rebuild on top of the ashes is heavy enough in its own right, but coupled with the fact that Darhk draws his power from death, it made the stakes even heavier. All it would take is just one nuke to super-charge Darhk’s evil magic, and judging by that final scene where he was basically a car battery hooked up to an evil power line, one looks to certainly be enough. Seeing Felicity forced to make a split second decision to sacrifice tens of thousands of lives for the sake of millions was a brutal moment, and if anything, it could’ve used a bit more breathing room and emotional heft (but hey, it was a busy episode). But, still a testament to how much things have changed in four years. * * * ... Along with Amendes’ aforementioned Calculator, this episode also featured the return of Vinnie Jones as Brick, Adrian Glynn McMorran as Murmur and Alexander Calvert’s Lonnie Machin/Anarky (who is, admittedly, working against Darhk). It was a great move to bring all these guys back as part of Darhk’s gang, and was handled with enough subtlety to really make it just feel like a believable part of this living, breathing universe. Darhk needed muscle, so why wouldn’t he turn to some proven commodities to beat the streets for him? Plus, it’s always a treat to see Vinnie Jones slugging it out with anyone.... * * * Thea has over gotten the short straw in the story department, and when she does get a B-story, it’s often tied to her romantic life (See: Her snore-fest relationship with Alex). With some narrative space cleared out by the tragic loss of Laurel, here’s hoping the end of this season, and next season, might finally be Thea’s chance to shine. Oh, and speaking of Alex — I’m taking bets on whether that shock from Anarky killed him? What’s your money on? * * * It makes sense Felicity’s mother would want Capt. Lance to tell the truth, sure, but c’mon — just let the dude sign the paper and get back to work. It wasn’t like he was signing a statement to condemn Laurel’s action. All they were asking him to do was play dumb. That conflict felt a bit too manufactured. We finally know why Darhk’s wife ran for mayor of a city she was planning to nuke: Darhk’s magical lair nexus point is conveniently located right under city hall. Dude, anyone else notice Merlyn’s new robot hand? That thing is sweet. Edited May 12, 2016 by tv echo Link to comment
tv echo May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) Craig Wack's mixed review of 421... Arrow Review: Unnecessary Detours Derail Episode That Requires Maximum Tension BY CRAIG WACK · MAY 12, 2016http://oohlo.com/2016/05/12/arrow-review-unnecessary-detours-derail-episode-that-requires-maximum-tension/ Quote Where Agents of SHIELD went with a con game story as the prelude to its season finale, Arrow chose to the heist route for its next-to-last episode of the season. The final result wasn’t exactly Ocean’s 11 but the episode deserves credit for an ending that was not neat and tidy. * * * ... The father-daughter hacking team try to deactivate the missile. The best they are able to do is use an old GPS prank of Felicity’s to make the target, Monument Point, seem 20 miles west from where it actually is. Instead of the bomb dropping on a large population center, it falls on the small town of Havenrock. Felicity has saved millions of lives (for now – shockwaves and fallout are nasty things) but still has the tens of thousands of innocent lives lost on her soul. * * * ... He gets Thea up to speed on Darhk’s plan, but really all she wants is to see her boyfriend. After some crass banter with her dad, Thea meets up with Alex who is directing new arrivals to their McMansions of the Apocalypse. As if things weren’t terrible enough for Thea, Anarky has found his way to the Truman Show dome, looking to exact some revenge on Darhk.... * * * -Still having problems figuring out how nuking the earth with fire and radiation is going to “save” it. -Where was Curtis Holt during all this breaking and entering? He can’t be Mr. Terrific if he can’t even rise to the level of Mr. Around. That widget was in his lab after all. * * * -Felicity had to think for a minute there when she rescued her dad. She’s so used to hitting people with that van, it must have felt foreign to hit the brakes instead. -I know it looks cool, but what good does a raincoat with a bunch of grommet holes punched in it do you? -You don’t think what it would be like to be the president in a world where the fate of mankind is in the hands of an IT girl, a criminal and two guys in Halloween costumes. -We went back to the island for some flashbacks that involved a lot of gunplay. After holding one of the idols for a while, Ollie’s Russian buddy’s eyes went all yellow. Noting to see here, move along. -Laurel may be “dead” and buried but it doesn’t stop the show from digging her up every episode. This time it was a side story between Quentin and Mama Smoak. ... These scenes only purpose was to keep Laurel fresh in our minds. Interpret that as you will. Edited May 12, 2016 by tv echo 1 Link to comment
tv echo May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) Fanfest's positive review of 421... ‘ARROW’ RECAP ‘MONUMENT POINT’ BY JULIA VALENTI MAY 11, 2016http://fanfest.com/arrow-recap-monument-point-2/ Quote ‘Monument Point’ has got to be one of the more suspenseful Arrow episodes to date. The anticipation and struggle has been real ever since they released the preview for the episode after last week’s episode ‘Genesis’. * * *I thought that this episode was pretty good overall. I loved how towards the end of the episode, it was nothing but pure suspense and action. I LOVE, LOVE, LOOOOOVE when old cast members find their way back into the show. Seeing ‘Brick’ once more was incredibly unexpected, and a true treat. He and Murmur were just absolutely awesome together. I also loved seeing Felicity and her father working together. I really, really want to like Noah and I want to believe that he really does want to reconnect with Felicity on some level. I hope this is not the last that we see of him. Edited May 12, 2016 by tv echo Link to comment
looptab May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 27 minutes ago, Chaser said: He has such grand expectations for Arrow. ARROW. It's not even that he has great expectations, it's that most of the time I feel like he hasn't yet grasped what kind of show this is. I mean, great expectations are cool. It's that I think he has the wrong kind of expectations. Quote Felicity had to think for a minute there when she rescued her dad. She’s so used to hitting people with that van, it must have felt foreign to hit the brakes instead. LOL, I had the same thought. 3 Link to comment
Midnight Lullaby May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 For a moment I thought she wasn't going to stop, LOL 2 Link to comment
tv echo May 12, 2016 Share May 12, 2016 (edited) fangirlish's positive review of 421...‘ 'Arrow’ 4×21 Review: ‘Monument Point’ [Gone Nuclear] 2 HOURS AGO by ALYSSA BARBIERIhttp://fangirlish.com/arrow-4x21-review-monument-point/ Quote When it comes to Arrow at its best I always point to the final three episodes of season two. What was basically a three-hour season finale set over the course of a day brought an insane amount of action, emotion, storytelling, and high stakes that inspired fear within. I was convinced that nothing would ever top it. Until now. Following an impressive episode in last week’s “Genesis,” this second to last hour of Arrow’s fourth season was absolutely phenomenal from top to bottom. Much like Arrow’s second season, these final three episodes will take place over the course of a short time where Team Arrow must attempt to stop Damien Darhk’s global nuclear attack. * * *But this episode still managed to blend a certain amount of heart, humor, heart-pounding action, and high stakes together as it sets the stage for the final two hours of the season where the world literally hangs in the balance and the only ones capable of stopping it are Team Arrow, Lyla, ARGUS, and refined criminal Noah Kuttler. * * *For the first time in this series I find myself wondering how the big bad can be stopped. How can Darhk infused with the power of tens of thousands of deaths be brought to his knees? How can Team Arrow manage to protect the world, save Thea, and stop Darhk at the same time? This is the kind of high stakes that Arrow brought in its second season that blew people’s minds. This is the kind of high stakes that legitimately could make the end of this fourth season even greater than season two. This is the kind of high stakes that has me shaking as we enter the final two hours of what has been a pretty solid fourth season. * * * That’s not to say I have something against Thea on Team Arrow – I love her as part of the team – but getting to see Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity team up again brought me back to season two, where it was just the three of them kicking ass and taking names. Their dynamic has always been something truly special. I might’ve started Arrow because I love superheroes and Stephen Amell is drop-dead gorgeous, but I stayed for Original Team Arrow. I’ve always said that the most important thing a superhero show or film needs to do is make its audience care; make the audience care about the person/people underneath the costume otherwise they won’t give a damn. The team of Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity have always been the heart of this show. Oliver might be the titular hero, but it’s his relationships with those he cares about – particularly Felicity and Diggle – that breathe emotion and heart into the Green Arrow’s story. * * * ... And Oliver was able to give some words of wisdom in regards to living a dual identity: that’s the reason Noah lost Felicity. It’s also the reason Oliver lost Felicity when he kept their life and his life with William separate. * * * ... Ever since Felicity broke up with Oliver we’ve seen him gradually becoming a better man – a man that recognizes right from wrong in terms of how open you need to be in a relationship. This was Oliver finally realizing that he had made a mistake and was dealing with the consequences that came with that mistake, which just continues to show his character growth this season. Edited May 12, 2016 by tv echo 1 Link to comment
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