S04.E09: The Watchers On The Wall 2014.06.08

[Mya Stone]

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Episode Synopsis: Jon Snow and the Night's Watch face a big challenge.

[Snowblack]

My initial reaction is that it was a good episode, but somehow I expected something more epic.  The Wildlings' plan north of the Wall was a forest fire and yelling?  Really?  And the NW used the scythe on half a dozen climbers.  Seems like a waste.  I liked Ygritte's death though.  Nicely done.  And the mammoths were great.  Otherwise, I'm a bit underwhelmed.

[90PercentGravity]

The only time I was really on the edge of my seat was when Mean Old Guy was fighting Thoramund.

 

Jon left without Ghost?

 

The giants and mammoths were kind of neat, but they moved so slow it was also kind of tedious watching them.

 

I think the problem with this episode, and the whole wall storyline in general, is that most of the watch is a bunch of nameless faceless rapists and murders. Most of the guys who were actually fighting and in danger were people we don't know or care about. The people we do care about were barely shown being in any real danger.

[ChocButterfly]

Ugh, that was a really disappointing episode. Specially since ep 9 is usually awesome. And the ENTIRE hour about people I don't really give a shit about? I was hoping for everyone in the NW to die, except Jon, Sam and Gilly.

 

Why did they all stare at the giants breaking the door slooooowly and only waited when the door was almost broken to throw things at them? I don't know, it seems the giants were so slow they should have been stopped before. And I also think it was stupid that Mance stopped the attack. Why? He has men to spare, he has more giants to brake the door, more climbers, etc. I don't understand why he didn't keep pushing, since waiting would only give the NW more time to regroup and plan a defense.

[Pontoon]

It all felt kind of weightless but I liked it anyway. I'm glad we got to see Thorne earning his stripes as (substitute?) Lord Commander, even belatedly. Hell, giving that speech and fighting Tormund, he seemed straight-up heroic... and I liked his little semi-apologetic scene with Jon. Some really well choreographed fight scenes as well. Not sure what any of this changes in the long term, but I thought it was a lot of fun as a kind of stand-alone episode. Just because previous Episode 9's have been big fulcrum movements in the Stark/Lannister/Baratheon struggle doesn't mean they all have to be.

[Snowblack]

Jon left without Ghost?

 

Wow, I didn't even notice it.  What a huge oversight.  They made a big show of him handing over his sword (why not just wear a different one to begin with), and he leaves his only potential ally behind. 

 

Pontoon, I totally agree about Thorne.  He led well and acted bravely all his arrogance in the previous episodes. What a great way for that character to go.  There were so many other great deaths.  Two of Jon's friends...I liked Grenn. I wish they had done more with his character before his death. I never cared for Ygritte, but her death scene was so good. The way Jon smiles at her, and you're not quite sure whether you see the same happiness returned in her face as that arrow pierces through her...it was perfect. They love each other despite the cruel circumstances, and it's a beautiful moment. Him cradling her body in the middle of a raging battle isn't so great.  I liked Tormund fighting with all his might despite all being lost.

 

To me, this was really Sam's episode. I loved him parsing the Night's Watch oath at the beginning. He missed his calling.  And he's finally become a man. It was clear that Jon had come into his own, but Sam's transformation is unexpected and welcome.  Now he needs to take Gilly and run.  Unfortunately, I don't think he will.

 

When Aemon was talking about a certain lady using her wiles on him, did anyone else think of Olenna/Emma Peele?  Lol.  Targaryans were all the rage, you know.  It's a shame Aemon abdicated.  I think he would have made a decent king.  But who knows, maybe madness manifests itself with power and he made the right choice. 

 

Looking ahead, if Jon Snow's plan works, I'll be completely disgusted. All the tribes have come together for the sole purpose of fleeing south, and Jon thinks they'll go home if Mance Rayder dies? That's nonsensical.  He left his wolf, his sword and his brain behind.

[abelard]

Wait so did Thorne die?  And what happened to Janos Slynt?  Did we see him down there in the Gilly cellar at the end?

 

I was sooooo scared that Ghost might go down.  Other than that, I didn't much care what happened this episode.  It seemed all very watered-down Helm's Deep, to me.  Also, Jon's plan at the end - to go confront Mance Rayder alone, with no weapons, in the middle of day, while Mance is surrounded by thousands of his men, seems like the Worst. Plan. Ever.

[gingerella]

That's it? We waited how many seasons...for this? BFD. On the plus side, the CGI was less awful in this epi, compared to say, the WW CGI nonsense, which is so utterly lame it takes A Viewer out of the Viewer mindset and almost laugh. So at least I was moderately appreciative that whoever was responsible for the giants and mammoths was somewhat realistic (keeping in mind giants dont exist...or do they...?), maybe that team can take over the ww CGI duty from now on.

Anyway, I assumed Jon would live and Ygritte would eat it, so no surprise there. I was on pins and needles when Sam's accomplice got shot by Ygritte because I thought we were going to have to sacrifice Sam for Jon a moment later. Where is the Lord Commander now? He got hurt falling off the balcony but they seemed to drag him into a safe alcove, is that correct? I liked that he admitted he was wrong to Jon, but that they could not second guess themselves in the moment, or they would fall. And I liked jow he rallied his men before the Wldlings broke through the lower gate.

Keeping in mind that I have never actually been a NW nor tried to fend off giants nor mammoths from a 1000 ft plus ice wall, so I'm talking out my ass here, why did they not drop a bunch of flaming barrels right on the giant as he was trying to lift the outer gate?!? I mean shit, is that not obvious to everyone watching? You dont wait until he lifts the damn gate, you hit him before he opens the damnn gate, yanno, when he is still trying to lift it. DUH. Any NW should know that. That sort of lame detail breaks my concentration and my mind calls a big fat bullshit, taking me totally out of the moment.

Who was the poor man's Jon Lovett who hid with Gilly? I guess he wont be giving any orders any time soon. I felt proud of Sam when he killed that crazy Thenn fucker a yard from being killled himself. And I really liked what he told his friend about how when you are about to die, you are nobody...so you do what you need to do...I hope we continue to see Sam for a long time to come and I am amongst those who hope he finds his inner wizard as the NW clicks one square on the Rubiks Cube in the human nature category tonight.

When I saw Ghost I yelled out loud, "GHOST! Yeah!!". But where is Ghost now and why wouldnt Jon take him North with him. I am anxious to see what happens to Jon now...did he have any weapon on him when he went outside?

Oh yeah, one last comment for now...why the hell is NObody in KL getting what's going down at The Wall right now? I mean, in the first few seasons we saw raven grams going hither and yon so fast that it was like they were practically SMSing, and yet NObody in the North has gotten word down the chain to the South, to get reinforcements?! Cersei is on her own personal witch hunt right now, while at the same time, shit just got very real at The Wall. WTF is wrong with the Lannisters? Is their raven out of order or something? Did they not get the clan plan and they exceeded their ravens for the month? Seriously, Show? This seemingly minor detail is bugging the shit out of me. You need to do better to hold my attention next season. Just sayin'.

ETA: abelard, I dont think Lord Commander died, I thought he got hurt falling and some of his men dragged him into an alcove or something.

So in the recap reviews before the episode began, the dude who says "I'll light the largest fire the North has ever seen...", is that Mance?

Edited June 9, 2014 by gingerella

[janjan]

"The owls are not what they seem."

                     - Special Agent Dale Cooper

 

So who's blowing the horn? Jon and Sam are up on the wall, keeping watch for the wildling army, but somebody else down below blew the horn. Same with last season's finale, when the horn blew three times -- Eeek! White Walkers!! Who knew? Maybe it's a magical, self-actuating horn.

 

Pyp and Grenn are the only other Watchmen we got to know -- and they killed off Pyp and Grenn! Wah! As someone noted upthread, Grenn had a good shot at the Orc -- excuse me, wrong movie, same FX subcontractor -- while he was lifting the outer gate. Shouldda shot him, Grenn.

 

Best scene in the whole entire hour: the mammoth with his ass on fire.

 

It was poetic that the little kid killed Ygritte. Jon would have botched it. As it was, he was emo'ing over her dead body while the fight was still going on!! And nobody attacked such an easy target. Clearly, Jon is being saved for greater things in this here game of thrones. So get on with it already. He'll probably charm Mance and enlist his army to fight Bolton or the Lannisters or somebody.

 

Tyrion was right about Slint: "I'm not questioning your honor. I'm denying its existence." Yup.

 

Yay for Sam. He done good.

[AlphaLine]

Wow. Most disappointing episode 9 EVAR.

 

They cut out all the exciting KL/Tyrion stuff to show a pointless action movie where no one of consequence even dies, really? And it's not even complete!

[WhiteStumbler]

Did anyone else worry that Ygritte would grab Jon by the back of the head and slowly, inexorably force his face over the arrow protruding from her heart and draaaag eye over and <squish>x3 Jon to his death?

Man alive, this show...

[gingerella]

The inherent problem with this "EO:09" is simply that there was no pivotal moment like there was in the KL battle when the signal was given and the flaming pigshit explosion ensued on the water. We knew Tyrion was planning something flaming and huge all season, and when we saw the results it was specfuckingtacular. So even though we've been waiting all season for this battle, we see no preparation because the Commander doesn't believe Jon? Why wouldnt the NW be planning something stellar "just in case"? So yeah, we got some flaming arrows, some barrels with and without explosives, and a kick ass flying hook, which was the only cool thing and unexpected to me. It just felt like there was no pivotal moment per se.

Oh, and man, I really wanted the to haul all the bodies in the Castle up to the top of the Wall and thrown them overboard, it would have been a statement, yanno? And they should have tossed Red beard over the top too.

Edited June 9, 2014 by gingerella

[90PercentGravity]

Jon Snore and Sam have the best chemistry. I wish they had more scenes together. For a moment I was pretty sure they were going to make out, but they didn't.

[Pallas]

I was sooooo scared that Ghost might go down. -- abelard

"I need you more than I need him."  Jon Snow, to Sam, of Ghost.

 

Speak for yourself, Jon.

 

Now, I like Sam fine and snowblack's right, this really was his episode. And I liked that he didn't go to the library and find there, presto, a magic Wildling repellent, but instead just did what he could to help both Gilly and his brothers.  But it was also important to me that the most vulnerable combatants or bystanders -- orphan, Gilly and baby, Aemon, Sam, Ghost and the horses -- survived, even if that may not be realistic.  

 

My guess is that Jon plans to negotiate with Mance, brother to brother.  He lied to Sam so as to spare Sam the dilemma of reporting this to whoever is left to report things to.  (Thorne was said to be "fallen," Slynt was cowering in the hiding place.)  

 

janjan, great callback to Tyrion's line about Slynt.  

[arry the orphan]

I really don't understand the negativitiy about this episode and the NW storyline in general. For me the Jon Snow storyline is one of the best of the show. I certainly prefer it to Cersei, Stannis, Brienne, Theon and co. For me Tyrion, Arya and Jon Snow are the most interesting characters (yes even before Dany).

 

And for a TV show this was really an excellent battle. Giants with bows shooting men on top of the Wall? Mamoths? The Chief Thenn with his axe against Jon Snow? Ygritte dying in Jon Snows hand? Grenn giving his life to stop a giant in the tunnel? Thorne vs. Toramund? Ghost? The long tracking shot of the battle? And babykiller "there-are-no-giants" Slynt hiding with the women? And of course Sam is becoming one of my favourite characters as well...

 

I really loved it and I think it was a worthy Episode 9!

 

 

why did they not drop a bunch of flaming barrels right on the giant as he was trying to lift the outer gate?

 

Didn't their delivery system blow up before that?

Edited June 9, 2014 by arry the orphan

[ZombieUpNorth]

I really don't understand the negativitiy about this episode and the NW storyline in general. For me the Jon Snow storyline is one of the best of the show. I certainly prefer it to Cersei, Stannis, Brienne, Theon and co. For me Tyrion, Arya and Jon Snow are the most interesting characters (yes even before Dany).

 

And for a TV show this was really an excellent battle. Giants with bows shooting men on top of the Wall? Mamoths? The Chief Thenn with his axe against Jon Snow? Ygritte dying in Jon Snows hand? Grenn giving his life to stop a giant in the tunnel? Thorne vs. Toramund? Ghost? The long tracking shot of the battle? And babykiller "there-are-no-giants" Slynt hiding with the women? And of course Sam is becoming one of my favourite characters as well...

 

I really loved it and I think it was a worthy Episode 9!

 

 

Didn't their delivery system blow up before that?

 

 

For me knowing this is a TV show and all we saw was the first night of the battle, its enough. I enjoyed it.

 

The only thing for me is, you know a second wave isnt coming, because they "blew their wad" in this episode and they arent waisting more money just to do a repeat. Jon will make it stop one way or another.

 

This show is always jumping around from place to place so it was nice to focus on just 1 spot. The stakes werent as high for the viewers as in the KingsLanding battle but thats just because there were only 2 people we cared about , Jon and his wildling. If you like the Sam ark, then you have him too but thats it.

 

Dont get me wrong I liked the 2 bros that died in the battle, but this is GOT and far more important people lose their heads all the time so I wasnt attached to them.

Edited June 9, 2014 by SilverStormm
Posting about suspicions.

[stillshimpy]

Did anyone else worry that Ygritte would grab Jon by the back of the head and slowly, inexorably force his face over the arrow protruding from her heart and draaaag eye over and <squish>x3 Jon to his death?

 

I thought she'd actually try to kill Jon, have a dagger, something. Ygritte has been so single-minded and bent on proving to the Wildlings that Jon didn't really get the better of her, I was honestly surprised when she wavered.  

 

Yeah, I think it was an unfortunate decision to spend all of that time at The Wall, but it was an impressive battle.  Sort of weirdly so though, because whereas we've seen the raiding party, that's the first time it seemed as if they were a formidable force.  Also, stop, drop and roll, Mammoth.  

 

It was a good episode, I just don't find the story at The Wall all that compelling.  As per usual the story kills off someone, seemingly as punishment for being a decent human being.  The poor Crow who rallied the men at the gate, dead underneath the giant was a good moment and helped convey a sense of the cost of the battle.  Thorne's turn around was also a good moment, only it felt completely unearned because he's been SUCH a jerk for so long, when he already knew about the Zombonis.  So it did cause a bit of character-whiplash. . 

 

Admittedly, I can't sleep tonight and this episode was on my mind enough that talking about the episode was enough of a draw to get me to logo-on in the middle of the night, so just personally that's the mark of a successful enough episode.  I just wish they'd checked in with other stories because the raiding party just never seemed that dangerous.  Lethal, certainly, but not a "oh my gods, it feels like all the Kingdoms are threatened!" the way it did in Blackwater.  

 

Maybe that's really why I had such a "eh, well that was good...ish.  It wasn't bad! The deaths were blessedly not all that traumatic."  it was more that the sense of peril wasn't as pressing for me. I think that's also a side effect of not really caring that much about the people in the Seven Kingdoms, because the stakes pretty much are: Oh no! If the Wildlings get through those terrible cannibal people will get to ...the Boltons.  

 

Go Wildlings!! Usurp Winterfell and eat Bolton and Ramsay alive, please 

Edited June 9, 2014 by stillshimpy

[arry the orphan]

 

Thorne's turn around was also a good moment, only it felt completely unearned because he's been SUCH a jerk for so long, when he already knew about the Zombonis.

 

I don't feel there was ever a need for a turn-around with Thorne. In the first season he said that during the last winter he and the other rangers were forced to eat their comrades to survive. His goal was always to turn the recruits into hard men, instead of "soft boys", because he knew that they are going to die like flies. So, if he survives his wounds, he is going to continue being such a jerk. He is not a nice fella, but in this episode I felt like he was developing some respect for Jon Snow. And they are the only two capable leaders left. I actually expected Slynt to die some ironic death, like being shot by an giant arrow, but Slynt survived. So with Thorne wounded and  Jon on the other side of the wall, is Slynt now in command?

[DirewolfPup]

I haven't been drawn to the plight of the Wall for several seasons, but this was still an amazing episode. What it lacked in green wildfire explosions, it made up for it in sweeping shots and awesome fight scenes.  It also should be noted that this is the most un-Game of Thrones episode I've ever seen. Tertiary guys (Pyp and Grenn) died, the leader was wounded yet not dead, and we loose Ygritte but not Sam or Jon. It was almost like a movie.

 

There were quite a few funny scenes.  Sam's "open the fucking door!" and Jon's "I'm not very good at telling stories." (Sam) "no shit..." I'm paraphrasing :)

 

Thorne admitting why he's a cold hard-ass to Jon. Awesome

Thormund fighting Thorne. Awesome

Jon Snuh fighting the ax weilding Thenn. Awesome

Ghost. Awesome

Everything Sam did this episode. Awesome

Grenn tricking Slynt to leave the wall. Awesome

The sweeping crane shot of the Castle Black fighting about 40-minutes in. So Awesome

Mammouths and Giants. Hugely Awesome

The Giant with the tree sized bow and arrow!! Holy awesome!

The mother-fucking siythe?!?!? Epic!!

 

I'd like a siythe to attach to my roof. It's clearly for getting rid of zombies and Jahovah's Witnesses.

 

Things we learned.

Sam is a man now.

Gilly/Sam Sr are safe and an item.

Slynt is a super coward and should never lead anything ever again.

Thorne is wounded. Let's hope he survives (I would have never said that a week ago)

We lost Pyp, Glenn, and Ygritte. Sad about all 3.

Thormund is in captivity.

 

My main complaint is Jon leaving without a sword or Ghost.

[stillshimpy]

I'm going to confess that I was so glad that Jon left without Ghost.  This show kills the living hell out of animals all over the place, so rather than being happy to see any of the Direwolves, I pretty much start swearing a blue streak whenever one appears now.  "Shit!! Run, Wolf, Run! I fucking swear if they sew that animal's head to anything, I will cancel HBO!  Run!!!"  

 

So the Direwolves just stress me the hell out whenever they appear and I'd be glad to see Ghost meet up with Nymeria and get the frak out of Dodge.  

 

 

 

It also should be noted that this is the most un-Game of Thrones episode I've ever seen. Tertiary guys (Pyp and Grenn) died, the leader was wounded yet not dead, and we loose Ygritte but not Sam or Jon. It was almost like a movie.

 

Very true, so at least the show pretty much immediately delivered on the "change up the trope inversion...trope (?!? anti-trope?) ...occasionally" .  Last week the guy on quest for justice for murdered innocents is killed in the most brutal fashion.  This week, we had the action movie untouchables  (Jon and Sam) and "Deaths to show the stakes are real!"  in everyone else who hung out with Jon, including the guys who went to fetch him when he tried to desert.  

 

I was in the mood for some "spare them!" type of writing though.  I'm also glad that Gilly didn't die when that the guy hid in the larder (or whatever the hell that room was, there were animal carcasses -- and we didn't even have to witness the slaughter!  The Show was feeling generous ). 

 

As for Jon leaving the sword...although I really ought to know freaking better by now...I treasure a cheesy hope that someday Jorah will actually own his family sword.  So I was sort of jazzed that Jon specifically didn't want to risk that sword. 

Edited June 9, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Snowblack]

The show built this up so much, week after week.  100,000 Wildlings bearing down on the Wall as the Night's Watch leadership does nothing to prepare, and then the pivotal episode is more the first skirmish in a siege than an epic battle for the north.  Had this been an episode 7, I would have loved every moment.  Except for the slow reaction to Giants and Mammoths, of course.  So I'll put my disappointment aside, and revel in the wonderful acting and storytelling in this episode while looking forward to the finale.  

 

The one thing that's still nagging me is Mance Rayder's plan.  First, he attacked one of the few fortresses along the Wall that is even manned.  Jon Snow told them which are guarded and which aren't.  If the end game is to get your 100k men south of the Wall, why not pick a tunnel under an abandoned fortress?  Second, why light a massive forest fire behind your forces?  Why let the Night's Watch know you're coming?  Send a warged bird with a message for your forces south of the Wall instead.  Then attack without warning.  The forest fire also gives them nowhere to retreat, and will presumably advance towards them, leaving their forces with no cover.  The only positive I can see tactically is that the smoke might obscure the Wildlings' movements.  The problem with that is that the Wildlings need to breathe.  So I'm dubious about Mance's whole approach here.  I wonder whether his ego and his need to best his former brothers hasn't gotten the better of him.  

 

One thought did occur to me about defenses for the next wave of the Wildling attack.  The Night's Watch should have lined the tunnel with the dead, so that the Wildlings would have to battle through 100 or more zombies to get to Castle Black.  That would have been a great force multiplier once the gate was successfully pulled from its hinges.  But instead we get Jon Snow, the lone hero, heading North to miraculously stop 100,000 people whose only hope of survival is getting to the other side of the Wall. 

[stillshimpy]

 

But instead we get Jon Snow, the lone hero, heading North to miraculously stop 100,000 people whose only hope of survival is getting to the other side of the Wall.

 This is a problem in the story, I don't really understand why the Wildlings HAVE to stay on the other side of The Wall.  Why are they kept out by force?  Are they considered lawless or dangerous?  Because if that's the case, so is almost everyone in the freaking 7k.  Why isn't it a case of "sure, go on your way, traveler, abide by the laws of the land and we will have no quarrel.  Also?  Don't fucking eat people while you're here and keep the killing to a dull roar, just like everyone else around here does."  

 

I mean, we see people from various lands come and go through King's Landing.  People from other lands are not forbidden, as far as we know, so what's up with The Free Folk?  Why isn't it a case of "Terrible, horrible, killer THINGS are coming for us!"  "Really? Well pluck a duck, that does suck.  Play through."  

[janjan]

Pallas: My guess is that Jon plans to negotiate with Mance, brother to brother.

This reminds me - Mance doesn't know Jon was a mole. Jon blew his cover to the Wildling party south of the Wall, but they didn't have any way to reporting that back to Mance, telecommunications being what they are in the Northern climes (we haven't seen Wildlings use ravens).

 

BTW, speaking of no ravens, I think the forest fire (of all those trees that grow in perpetual winter?!) was to signal the raiding party to attack from the South. Also, it was very cinematic.

 

Anyway, Jon presents himself to Mance as the lone survivor of the unfortunate raiding party, details how fearsome the 1000 Crows at the Wall still  are, and then. . . and then. . . and then what? Go home, Mance? Or join up with the raggedy remnants of the Watch (oops, cover story blown) to fight WhiteWalkers? (Has Jon seen the WWs - I forget.) Jon doesn't have any incentive to persuade Mance to go south peacefully, so we must be in for more action north of the wall, next season. Yawn.

 

Or else Jon will meet up with Bran, and the story will go in some wholly new direction. A Stark reunion!!  Naah.

 

And meanwhile, nobody is avenging my beloved Oberyn.

[Pallas]

This is a problem in the story, I don't really understand why the Wildlings HAVE to stay on the other side of The Wall.

 

It is a problem, shimpy.  I think the saga missed a great opportunity to explore the Wildling POV when Jon was infiltrated among them. Especially in his dealings with Mance, former Crow. The focus in Jon's scenes with Mance was on Mance's divining why Jon would want to defect, rather than on why Mance defected, in the first place.  I realize that Mance held the cards and was under no obligation to exposit for Jon's or for our benefit, but a way might have been found.  Of course Jon spent a lot more time with Ygrette -- and Bran and Rickon, with Osha. There too A Show had many a chance to introduce the Wildling POV. 

 

Last night around the Wildling campfire we heard a snippet of, "They plopped down a wall on our land, said it was theirs, and told us to Keep Out."   There are certainly plenty of real-life precedents for that kind of power play -- modern as well as archaic -- based on fear and presumptions of cultural/political/military superiority.  A Show might have borrowed from that history and the perspective of the despised, to reveal where our heroes might want to examine their assumptions.  

 

Maybe (maybe) that is still to come.  It seems to me that Jon's heroism is going to be founded on whether he can broker a pact with the Wildlings, uniting forces against the imminent palefaced dreadnaught. 

[abelard]

This reminds me - Mance doesn't know Jon was a mole. Jon blew his cover to the Wildling party south of the Wall, but they didn't have any way to reporting that back to Mance, telecommunications being what they are in the Northern climes (we haven't seen Wildlings use ravens).

 

janjan, this is the first statement that has made me think that Jon's not an absolute total idiot for wanting to march towards a giant army (I mean that both ways) and try to "negotiate" with the leader.  I pray that you're right, that Jon is able to walk right up and say, I was with the Wildlings Attacking from the South party, and here's what happened...  That's the only scenario that makes sense to me at this point.

 

I've decided that this ep. 9 would not at all have bothered me - I mean, I probably would have liked it, I love battle sequences when they're don well - if I weren't still mourning Oberyn's loss from last ep.  I agree the Show did us a favor by keeping Jon and Sam alive, and Ghost, and Gilly, and the baby.  Thanks, Show.  But I'm still smarting over the last ep and needed, I don't know, maybe some closure on the Tyrion trial story in KL, before I could care about The Wall.  I think maybe the whole time I was wanting the Show to cut away to KL, just so we could get some indication of what's happening down there.  But I'll try to get over that unmet expectation, and rewatch The Battle of the Wall again in a better frame of mind.

 

I do pray that we don't get a ton more Wall Battling next ep, and that somehow this attack is put to rest one way or another by whatever Jon finagles with Mance Rayder.  B/c we have got a lot of stories to catch up on, now - but Tyrion's is the main one I am wanting.

[stillshimpy]

Thanks, Show.  But I'm still smarting over the last ep and needed, I don't know, maybe some closure on the Tyrion trial story in KL, before I could care about The Wall.  I think maybe the whole time I was wanting the Show to cut away to KL, just so we could get some indication of what's happening down there.

 

Agreed entirely, part of what made last night a bit of an impatient experience for me, was that I turned into a clock watcher after the first twenty minutes or so.  Around the half hour mark I accepted, "Oh, okay.  So we aren't going to King's Landing this week?  Argh."  

 

On the one hand, I sort of dread the aftermath, on the other ...well A Show just sentenced one of the lead characters to die.  I don't think he's really going to die, particularly since apparently they want to up the tension for another week, but by the same token?  We'd heard about the coming battle at The Wall, and not to put too fine a point on it, but from the numbers we'd heard?  The Crows were humped, solidly, squarely and with no questioned.  Screwed Six Ways to the Seven Kingdoms.  "They have 100,000 men! We barely have 100, what's going to happen?!?"  Well newsflash, guys, I was always a liberal arts sort of girl, but even I can do that math: Y'all are going to lose.  Next! 

 

So that was also part of the letdown of sticking with the Wall.  The odds were impossible without magical intervention.  Sam actually being able to do something in the face of danger, other than fall down, was in fact unusual, but not quite magical.  It's also not without precedent, since he took out a White Walker.  A development I had a slightly easier time buying than Sam killing the biggest Thenn to ever Gnaw on a Femur.  Still, whereas it was an amazing bunch of CGI and it was good to see people trying to do what might be the right thing in the story...there wasn't a ton of mystery to it.  They can't win.  They actually Lost people.  What mattered here is that they didn't all die and Jon's off to form an allegiance, I'm guessing.  

 

Because it's not like Killing Mance would help him a great deal at this juncture.  

 

But back to the original point.  The last episode left off on a giant ass cliffhanger.  Tyrion: Sentenced to Death.  

 

The Wall story has always been a bit of a pacing stumble as it is, and this was no exception.  Huge....long....really, very, very long build up and unlike Blackwater where that Throne Room scene was one of the most terrifying things I've ever seen -- because I did NOT see Loras coming through that door as one of the possibilities, so I thought I was going to pass the hell out when they all burst in and it looked like a painting of a victory (pity this world apparently has very little artwork) .   Blackwater had a truly "what's going to happen? ZOMG!!" feel to it. 

 

Here, I guess I just didn't believe that the under-developed Wildlings were going to take Castle Black.  So I guess what I'm saying is that story developed right along expected lines with few true shocks.  Whereas I am at least intrigued as to how the hell they are going to get Tyrion out of this mess.  

 

I still treasure a tiny hope that Margaery will be uncomfortable with Tyrion being put to death for something she knows he didn't do, and persuade Tommen to stay the execution ....based on something, I don't know what.  Maybe that both combatants did die, so it was closer to a draw on the combat?  I don't know.  I just have been a little surprised to have not seen anything from Margaery as she contemplates this all.  

 

I don't expect tears or guilt or regret, but I thought she'd at least have a twinge that Tyrion's neck is on the line.  

[Pallas]

This reminds me - Mance doesn't know Jon was a mole. Jon blew his cover to the Wildling party south of the Wall, but they didn't have any way to reporting that back to Mance, telecommunications being what they are in the Northern climes (we haven't seen Wildlings use ravens).

BTW, speaking of no ravens, I think the forest fire (of all those trees that grow in perpetual winter?!) was to signal the raiding party to attack from the South. Also, it was very cinematic.

Anyway, Jon presents himself to Mance as the lone survivor of the unfortunate raiding party, details how fearsome the 1000 Crows at the Wall still  are, and then. . . and then. . .

 

Terrific point, janjan.  And it sure sounds like the answer to how Jon gets anywhere near Mance.  

 

B/c we have got a lot of stories to catch up on, now

 

Across all Seven Kingdoms, and beyond.  I think the finale will be a peripatetic speed-date from one story-line to another.  No time for the quiet musings, no time for philosophical monologues.  No bears, no beetles.  Plot-a-palooza!

[MrMicrophone]

"Him cradling her body in the middle of a raging battle isn't so great."

... a Show makes me expect him to have to defend himself using her body. Feh! 

Why give him plot armor...?

 

abe,

yeah, story metabolism AWOL. They could have done...something? with KL, then had most of the battle (end with Ygritte dying -- would seem less awkward as a closing shot.) And leave us on tenterhooks for what happens next week.

 

Mance's weapon is Fear. He spends a very small portion of his force, and then lets the NW desert. Or parley, or something (ten days of constant vigilance, and then a night attack?...nah...).

[ChocButterfly]

I can't quote right now, but I was thinking the same thing, that Mance probably doesn't know that Jon is back with the NW. Still, it was utterly stupid to leave without a sword, it doesn't have to be Mormont's , pick any other sword! Plus, if that is Jon's plan he should change his clothes and put something on from the dead wildlings.

 

What irks me more about this episode is that they have known the Wildlings were going to attack for quite some time now and they didn't do anything to prepare! So maybe Thorne didn't believe Jon at first, but they have rangers, they could have spotted the wildlings some time ago. I mean, c'mon, it's 100,000 men we're talking about, it's not like they're difficult to spot from afar or like they move very quickly! Another poster mentioned the other day how they should have evacuated the nearby towns after the first wildling attack, duh! That would've been common sense, same as recruiting men from around and the North. Plus, the rest of the kingdoms seem to either not know anything or they just don't care. We know they know something, cuz Maester Aemon sent those ravens. I understand they have a lot if issues to deal with right now and nobody cares about the Wall, but shouldn't they at least have mentioned it? Kings Landing was having a freaking wedding for God's sake! 

[MrMicrophone]

Choc,

The ratio of "good Castle Defense" to "marauding army" appears to be 1 man worth around 10, judging by the Frey's force kept back in the first season.

 

If Hodor has giant's blood in him, at least some of the wildlings must be filtering south of the wall, at some time...

Edited June 9, 2014 by MrMicrophone

[abelard]

The last episode left off on a giant ass cliffhanger.  Tyrion: Sentenced to Death. 

The Wall story has always been a bit of a pacing stumble as it is, and this was no exception.  Huge....long....really, very, very long build up and unlike Blackwater where that Throne Room scene was one of the most terrifying things I've ever seen -- because I did NOT see Loras coming through that door as one of the possibilities, so I thought I was going to pass the hell out when they all burst in and it looked like a painting of a victory (pity this world apparently has very little artwork) .   Blackwater had a truly "what's going to happen? ZOMG!!" feel to it.

 

ITA with all this.  I felt a little bit betrayed (I know, how can I feel any more betrayed than by Ned Beheading/Red Wedding/Sansa Rescued by LF/Oberyn Dying?  But still...) that there was a big cliffhanger the previous week with Tyrion, and then this week: Nothing.  Thanks for the cliffhanger, then!!!!  The ordering of the eps made the Battle of the Wall seem...like filler, like something to give me to chew on while I was waiting for the main course to be served (which is not, I hope, Tyrion's head on a platter).  

 

Blackwater definitely felt different.  There was a ton of buildup from different characters' pov, especially Tyrion's and Stannis's.  Tyrion was amazing throughout that whole night.  But Stannis was even better in that ep, I thought.  Of course he lost, but Blackwater was the very first (maybe the only) time that I could see Stannis's incredible leadership ability.  His no-nonsense approach through the entire attack, his expressionless face and his Keep Moving attitude were so winning.  I thought, THAT is how you invade a city.  He was right out there in front, the whole time, and he was a true leader to the men.  That was the surprise of Blackwater for me: that halfway through it, I thought, Hey, maybe Stannis deserves to win!!  And then, the reversal of fortune at the end - the perfect twist of fate (and not just fate, but: strategy.  Ah, Tywin.).  So, yeah, Blackwater = awesome.

[Anothermi]

Abelard, Blackwater also had the drama of the women sequestered in the Holdfast with the King's executioner... and the start of Cersei's alcoholism - uh - I mean sense of helplessness and despair.  Locking Gilly and Sam Jr. in a larder can hardly compare. And Pyp is no Cersei, although he certainly seemed to feel just as helpless. 

 

Oh, and it had the Hound face his greatest fear and decide to "Fuck the King" and fuck off. 

Edited June 9, 2014 by Anothermi

[abelard]

Abelard, Blackwater also had the drama of the women sequestered in the Holdfast with the King's executioner... and the start of Cersei's alcoholism - uh - I mean sense of helplessness and despair.  Locking Gilly and Sam Jr. in a larder can hardly compare. And Pyp is no Cersei, although he certainly seemed to feel just as helpless. 

 

Oh, and it had the Hound face his greatest fear and decide to "Fuck the King" and fuck off. 

Oh yes, all the secondary plots of Blackwater were awesome.  Everything between Shae and Sansa, and Sansa and Cersei, and even Shae and Cersei, was great.  And then Cersei at the end with Tommen was so terrifying.  The Hound and Bronn's little war of words was incredible.  The Hound: "You're like me.  But smaller."  Bronn: "But quicker.  Eh? (smiles, and reaches for the dagger behind his back)"  SO. GREAT.

[Pallas]

Oh, and it had the Hound face his greatest fear and decide to "Fuck the King" and fuck off.

 

Another of those cusp moments. Well, in this ep we had, on the plus side, Sam and, I suppose, Ygrette: once she saw Jon and he unloosed that smile (for that smile alone, Kitt Harrington earned his top billing last night) -- Ygrette was never going to loose that arrow. She had made her choice before the other arrow landed. Also Thorne, showing that he was a very able soldier and might have been a formidable commander of troops he respected more.  On the craven side, Slynt and very few others.  

 

So, comparing Blackwater to Watch, very loosely:

 

Sam and Jon together = Tyrion;

Sam or the orphan boy = Pod;

Ygrette = the Hound;

Thorne = Stannis;

Slynt = Joffrey.  

 

I don't recall if Tyrion had an assist in hustling Joffrey off the scene, such as Grenn provided Jon, with Slynt. (Well, other than Cersei.)  As a pure plot point, Ygrette also doubled as Davos's son, the only casualty of the attacking force that we might lament.   Although as shimpy said:  Stop, drop and roll, Mammoth.          

[RedheadZombie]

I was disappointed in the episode.  At twenty five minutes I thought WTF, and did a quick FF to confirm that nothing else was going to happen.  At that point I relaxed and it was a little easier.  When a multi-location show chooses to devote itself to one story, it can be tricky.  The Walking Dead did that last season with mixed results.  For me, the problem here (as with TWD), is a very popular character's destiny was left hanging for an extra week, while the least compelling characters were featured.  And this wasn't really a stand alone episode, because the story wasn't even completed.  It seemed like filler which sucks when there's only ten episodes per season.

 

It didn't bother me that Jon stopped to hold Ygritte as she died.  If he had just dropped her (which I half expected) I think it would have been unintentionally funny.  I took it as the moment in a film when everything stands still for that one moment - like slow motion. 

 

As cool as the mammoth and giants were, they were so slow and lumbering that I found them cute rather than frightening.

 

I'm glad Ghost was safe.  I have yet to recover from Arya watching Robb's wolf die.  When he whimpered and his eyes closed .......

[Overwhelming No]

Pyp and Grenn are the only other Watchmen we got to know -- and they killed off Pyp and Grenn! Wah!

 

We've still got the ever-hilarious Edd at the top of the wall!  For now, at least. 

 

For me, it might have been more satisfying if Olly's and Sam's killings had been reversed~ Olly could get revenge by killing the Thenn, and Sam could be the one to kill Ygritte.

 

I'm glad to see that creepy fucking Thenn bite it~  every time he had a scene, Midnight Oil's "Beds are Burning" started playing in my head.  I couldn't look at the Thenn without thinking of, (the awesome), Peter Garrett.

[Llywela]

For me, it might have been more satisfying if Olly's and Sam's killings had been reversed~ Olly could get revenge by killing the Thenn, and Sam could be the one to kill Ygritte.

Perhaps, but it worked for me the way it was because we know that Olly specifically saw and took note of Ygritte participating in the killings - I remember being shown him watching her as she tore through the village shooting anything that moved. So thematically, his killing of her closed that loop and and satisfied vengeance for his village, while Sam killing the Thenn was both a significant victory for Sam and a much cleaner victory than if he'd killed Jon's girl.

 

This was rather an unrelenting episode, but it worked for me. I'm sad to lose Pyp and Grenn, although not as much as if we'd spent more time with them. At least we still have Ed.

[Pallas]

The only time I gasped or groaned during the ep was when Ygrette was shot -- to say, "Oh no, not Sam..."  It's not as if A Show risks suffering a shortage of irony.

[Anothermi]

The only time I gasped or groaned during the ep was when Ygrette was shot -- to say, "Oh no, not Sam..."  It's not as if A Show risks suffering a shortage of irony.

Hee! No, A Show does not suffer a shortage of irony - ever.  Sam may not have shot Ygritte (Jon's first twu wuv) but he can still be held responsible for her death because it was He: Samwell Tarly, who told the boy "Olly?" (yes, replay has Sam confirming his name though I didn't remember this from 1st watch) who was, up to that point, being very Former!Sam-ish by cowering behind a post at his station (the elevator) to: 1) get him up to the Top and 2) be ready to bring him down at the signal AND 3) to "find a weapon, Olly. Fight them".

 

Without Sam-the-Man!  No Dead!Ygritte.  However, I think Ygritte's feelings toward Jon could have turned on a silver Stag at any moment and if Olly hadn't killed her right then, Jon could easily have been the dead'un. 

Edited June 10, 2014 by Anothermi

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

Hee! No, A Show does not suffer a shortage of irony - ever.  Sam may not have shot Ygritte (Jon's first twu wuv) but he can still be held responsible for her death because it was He: Samwell Tarly, who told the boy "Olly?" (yes, replay has Sam confirming his name though I didn't remember this from 1st watch) who was, up to that point, being very Former!Sam-ish by cowering behind a post at his station (the elevator) to: 1) get him up to the Top and 2) be ready to bring him down at the signal AND 3) to "find a weapon, Olly. Fight them".

 

Thank you for confirming this as that was my fuzzy recollection, but I only watched the episode once so far and wasn't sure. Luckily, I doubt either Jon or Sam will ever make that connection.

[Anothermi]

I was sooooo scared that Ghost might go down. -- abelard

 

QUOTE by Pallas

"I need you more than I need him."  Jon Snow, to Sam, of Ghost.

Speak for yourself, Jon.

OK, I'm referring back to this because I've been doing the selective re-watch thing in order to get a few things straightened out in my mind.  I recall reading the Jon Snuh (RIP Ygritte) quote and thinking "I don't remember it that way". 

 

Sure enough, Jon tells Sam, just before they get off the elevator, that he doesn't want Sam out there and Sam basically argues that hiding won't protect him from the Wildings.  Then Jon hands Sam a key and says "I need HIM more than I need you."  Uh. Thanks bud.  Don't hold back. Tell me what you really feel.  Then I wondered who HIM might be.  Silly me. It wasn't likely to be the re-animated corpse of Commander Mormont (or Benjen Stark?) now, was it?

 

Anyway, when it turned out to be the key to Ghost's prison I forgave him.... But NOT the show runners who gave us a few seconds of Ghost attacking someone and going all Thenn on them.  After that no more shots of Ghost so I guess he must have been starving and finished his Wilding meal and lay down for a nap?! [/cheated]

 

Um, so back to my original point.  Was that just a typo, Pallas?  Or did you actually hear it that way?

Edited June 10, 2014 by Anothermi

[RadiantAerynSun]

Yeah I would have thought they would have used Ghost more effectively or for something more dramatic since they went to the trouble of making a point of him being "unleashed".

[gingerella]

Sure enough, Jon tells Sam, just before they get off the elevator, that he doesn't want Sam out there and Sam basically argues that hiding won't protect him from the Wildings.  Then Jon hands Sam a key and says "I need HIM more than I need you."  Uh. Thanks bud.  Don't hold back. Tell me what you really feel.  Then I wondered who HIM might be.  Silly me. It wasn't likely to be the re-animated corpse of Commander Mormont (or Benjen Stark?) now, was it?

 

Anyway, when it turned out to be the key to Ghost's prison I forgave him.

anothermi, I have been meaning to post this same thing...I remembered Jon also saying it the way you quote above, and was like, "Um, okay..." then I saw he was referring to Ghost and I yelled out loud, "Ghost! Yeah!!!!!!!!!!"  It is indeed odd that Jon would not take Ghost with him, though perhaps he doesn't want Ghost getting killed out North of the Wall because he needs his help for other things...and yet, Ghostie Boy always pulls through in a pinch so it would seem like good insurance to have him close when venturing into Wildling/WW territory...

 

It's funny how protective we Unsullied are about our Direwolves, isn't it?

 

ETA: As poetic justice as it was that a little boy offed Ygritte in the end, it would have been super cool if Ghost had leaped out of the shadows to grab her neck and kill her. I dunno, it seemed like they could have used Ghost more in that scene and yet, we get it, he's a badass pup and never lets Jon down. Ghost, may you live long and prosper...maybe even have some puppies...

Edited June 10, 2014 by gingerella

[WhiteStumbler]

gingerella: It wasn't just "a little boy" who shot Ygritte thru the heart, it was the young son of the man Ygritte killed in the Wildling attack back in S4E3 Breaker of Chains. Dad was about to extoll the virtues of Mom's potatoes when *thwack*

 

The kids little nod ('I saved your life; no biggie, I got this') to Jon after his shot was just another in a line of "Oh shit!" moments for me.

Last week: How not to get revenge (taunting, getting too close, letting your guard down).

This week: Revenge 101 (shot thru the heart, and you're to blame).

[gingerella]

Thanks for the reminder of who the boy was, WS!  I too, loved his little nod when he made eye contact with Jon, like, "...gotcha back muthafuckah."  I have no doubt if that boy hadn't done the job, Jon would've been dead meat because Ygritte was not going to not kill him this time. She just wasn't. Even though she faltered, I think in the end her pride would have made her shoot that arrow.  Then again, it's hard to kill the only man in the North who would actually go down on a wildling before they bathed for like the first time in months*. Yeah, I just went there...think about that...I'm just sayin'...she wasn't ever gonna find another lay like that so, yanno, that's a powerful and intoxicating thing for a lass who's dating pool consists of cannibalistic Thenn skinheads and stinky obnoxious Wildlings...

 

*Yes, I know, that was gross to even reimagine but A Show forced me to relive A Cave Scene last Sunday, so I have to try to brain bleach my mind on that one and saying it aloud might just do the trick...apologies my Wall brethren...apologies.

Edited June 10, 2014 by gingerella

[WhiteStumbler]

I just remembered - another great moment for me was the Battle of the Kitchen! The Thenn got his ass handed to him by a bunch of cooks wielding hot water and what looked like a pizza peel. Glad to see they had just the right amount of men in the kitchen - too many cooks spoil the combat.

[Pallas]

Sure enough, Jon tells Sam, just before they get off the elevator, that he doesn't want Sam out there and Sam basically argues that hiding won't protect him from the Wildings.  Then Jon hands Sam a key and says "I need HIM more than I need you."  Uh. Thanks bud.  Don't hold back. Tell me what you really feel.  Then I wondered who HIM might be.  Silly me. It wasn't likely to be the re-animated corpse of Commander Mormont (or Benjen Stark?) now, was it?

 

Aie-e-e!  Facepalm!

 

I left my couch for a moment and was sitting back down again as Jon said the line, and that's what I thought I heard.  I guess even by that point, I sensed that Sam was being given a hero's edit, and all that was missing was the man-to-man acknowledgement by Hero #1. Then when Sam freed Ghost, I too realized who "him" was, but thought that Sam was acting on his own initiative.  

 

This makes me wonder what else I may have missed or misheard.  For example: where was Ned during the battle?  Have we even seen him at the Wall since Joffrey had him sentenced there?  

[Anothermi]

This makes me wonder what else I may have missed or misheard. For example: where was Ned during the battle? Have we even seen him at the Wall since Joffrey had him sentenced there?

Hee! Are we still talking re-animated corpses?

[Pallas]

Hee! Are we still talking re-animated corpses?

 

Zombeanies.  

[Anothermi]

Zombeanies

:D. :D. :D

And on a completely different subject...

I rather enjoyed the brief moment of positivity displayed by Edd-the-glass-half-empty guy.

"If we're going to die tonight, we might as well enjoy it!" (Gives enthusiastic order to unleash the fire-tipped arrows.)

I am glad The Story saved him, at least, because - of all of Jon's entourage - he's the one who had the funniest lines.