S01.E07: Angel

[Lisin]

From Wikipedia:

Sharing their first kiss, Buffy is horrified to discover that Angel is a vampire. Bent on Slaying him, Buffy learns that Angel's soul was restored by a Gypsy curse, making him unique—and reviled—among his fellow undead. Angel stakes Darla, the vampire who made him, as she attempts to assassinate Buffy for the Master.

Sigh... I'm not even a Bangle shipper but this is where the show really gets rolling in my opinion. I think it's an exciting episode and I the Darla thing is wrapped up nicely here and I just all in all think it's a good episode. 

[Eegah]

I hugely regret not watching the show live, because I had the big Angel reveal thoroughly spoiled by the time I checked the show out. And of course, that also made it more annoying to sit through scenes in the early episodes where he clearly wasn't intended to be a vampire.

 

The episode is a huge leap forward, after the season's first half showed little interest in being anything but a fluffy turn-your-brain-off show.

[Carrie Ann]

I am a Bangel shipper, and this episode was formative for Young Carrie Ann. I agree that it was a huge leap forward for the show--a point where I realized how invested I was in Buffy herself, and when the show demonstrated that it was dealing with real emotions underneath all this monster fighting. Like, sneaking zucchini in your chocolate cake.

[apgold]

I watched this recently too.  Besides being shocked at how young everyone looks (since most of the younger cast is now 35+), I was struck how much of a landmark episode it was in setting up what was to come later. It included B/A's first kiss, learning more about Angel/Angelus' back story and his relationship with Darla.  It was also the first time Darla was dusted (and as we all know she was resurrected by Wolfram and Hart on AtS).

 

While I was a BtVS fan, I think I enjoyed AtS more, especially during the later years when the quality of the show went downhill in the last couple of seasons.

[buffyjunkie]

 

Like, sneaking zucchini in your chocolate cake.

Nicely put Carrie Ann.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎28‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 1:14 AM, Lisin said:

From Wikipedia:

Sigh... I'm not even a Bangle shipper but this is where the show really gets rolling in my opinion. I think it's an exciting episode and I the Darla thing is wrapped up nicely here and I just all in all think it's a good episode. 

 

Spoiler

Wrapped up nicely? As if!

On ‎28‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 3:03 AM, Eegah said:

I hugely regret not watching the show live, because I had the big Angel reveal thoroughly spoiled by the time I checked the show out. And of course, that also made it more annoying to sit through scenes in the early episodes where he clearly wasn't intended to be a vampire.

 

The episode is a huge leap forward, after the season's first half showed little interest in being anything but a fluffy turn-your-brain-off show.

 

I always thought he was supposed to be a vampire from the start? And whatever happened to Mr Garabaldi?

On ‎28‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 4:42 AM, Carrie Ann said:

I am a Bangel shipper, and this episode was formative for Young Carrie Ann. I agree that it was a huge leap forward for the show--a point where I realized how invested I was in Buffy herself, and when the show demonstrated that it was dealing with real emotions underneath all this monster fighting. Like, sneaking zucchini in your chocolate cake.

Yeah, this took the show to a new level.

On ‎10‎/‎06‎/‎2014 at 9:18 PM, apgold said:

I watched this recently too.  Besides being shocked at how young everyone looks (since most of the younger cast is now 35+), I was struck how much of a landmark episode it was in setting up what was to come later. It included B/A's first kiss, learning more about Angel/Angelus' back story and his relationship with Darla.  It was also the first time Darla was dusted (and as we all know she was resurrected by Wolfram and Hart on AtS).

 

While I was a BtVS fan, I think I enjoyed AtS more, especially during the later years when the quality of the show went downhill in the last couple of seasons.

I actually think Angel's 4th season was its' best but we'll talk about that in time. 

Angel;

The Good; Awesome fight scenes with both The Three and at the Bronze. Lovely stuff with Buffy introducing Angel to Joyce, wonderful scene between Angel and Darla hinting at great things to come. I love Joyce's denial over the barbecue fork and Cordy's rage over the girl in the same dress. The big shock that Angel is a vampire which I must say I didn't see coming at all (he gives Buffy a cross in WTTH but it's in a box!). Love the diary misunderstanding too and the shock of Buffy coming home to see a bleeding Joyce in Angel's arms.

The Bad; The Master's killing of The Three (lame name or what?) is stupid. Also they seem to give up awfully easily, that or Joyce just walks right past them? (maybe they know better than to mess with momma Summers?)

Best line; Buffy "Stay the hell away from us!"

Observations and questions; Anyone else disturbed by The Master's relationship with The Anointed? Joyce is the first cast member to be bitten by a vamp (although despite being a huge part of the series she's never actually a Scooby) whilst Angel is the first to be shot. Why don't vamps use guns more often? According to Joss it goes against their demonic nature. We have Xander dancing, always a treat. Angel kills his first vamp on screen although we later learn he's killed at least 2 prior to this.

 

Spoiler

The first of the many deaths of Darla

Here Buffy really kicks into high gear, the Buffy/Angel romance is set on it's course, we see the Darla/Angel relationship for the first time, it turns an OK show with an attractive cast into a brilliant show 10/10

Edited June 4, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[Halting Hex]

On 6/3/2018 at 8:50 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

[Knowing Angel was a vampire] also made it more annoying to sit through scenes in the early episodes where he clearly wasn't intended to be [one].

Untrue; those are intentional misdirects, to keep the audience guessing about Mysterious Guy.  Is he a good vampire?  A literal Angel?  A human Hunter with a different agenda?  Inquiring minds want to know.  (Other minds just want to see David Boreanaz with his shirt off, but I digress.)

So we get:

• Buffy sensing Angel on the street behind her (but Giles says she hasn't learned to "hone" her vampdar [she's cheating by going off the vampires' clothes], maybe it was just intuition?  Or maybe he wasn't as stealthy as he likes to think?)

• Angel telling her "I don't bite" (…but she thinks he's telling her he's not a vampire, when he's really referring obliquely to his soulfullness)

• Angel giving Buffy a cross (…but it's in a box, he never had to touch it)

• Angel almost being in sunlight at the crypt (…but he's not, he just got there really early.  Should have brought a book, IMO.)

• Angel reacting to news of Buffy's slaying Fork Guy by telling her "I heard there was one less vampire going around out there, making a nuisance of himself."  Oh, heh.  Smartass.

• Cordelia seeing Angel at the Bronze and saying "That boy's going to need some serious oxygen".  Not at the present time, Cordy.  And not for a while now. 

Spoiler

And only for one brief and then undone episode on the other series.

So yeah, they teased other possibilities and threw smoke in the viewers' eyes, but they always intended the fangs to come out.

Spoiler

Just as Angel's Season 2 fate is teased by his saying "I'll be damned" when he sees Buffy leaving the Bronze in triumph in The Harvest.  At least the show kept that promise; I'm still pissed that Xander's telling Angel "you're going to die, and I'm going to be there" in Killed by Death went unfulfilled.  Too bad those "centuries of torment" were over so quickly, from our perspective.  Oh, well.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Smad]

I don't think Angel was intended to be a vampire right at the start. They were toying with many ideas at the time. If he was always going to be a vampire however, maybe they shouldn't have had him stand around in direct sunlight.

[Joe Hellandback]

19 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Untrue; those are intentional misdirects, to keep the audience guessing about Mysterious Guy.  Is he a good vampire?  A literal Angel?  A human Hunter with a different agenda?  Inquiring minds want to know.  (Other minds just want to see David Boreanaz with his shirt off, but I digress.)

So we get:

• Buffy sensing Angel on the street behind her (but Giles says she hasn't learned to "hone" her vampdar [she's cheating by going off the vampires' clothes], maybe it was just intuition?  Or maybe he wasn't as stealthy as he likes to think?)

• Angel telling her "I don't bite" (…but she thinks he's telling her he's not a vampire, when he's really referring obliquely to his soulfullness)

• Angel giving Buffy a cross (…but it's in a box, he never had to touch it)

• Angel almost being in sunlight at the crypt (…but he's not, he just got there really early.  Should have brought a book, IMO.)

• Angel reacting to news of Buffy's slaying Fork Guy by telling her "I heard there was one less vampire going around out there, making a nuisance of himself."  Oh, heh.  Smartass.

• Cordelia seeing Angel at the Bronze and saying "That boy's going to need some serious oxygen".  Not at the present time, Cordy.  And not for a while now. 

  Reveal hidden contents

And only for one brief and then undone episode on the other series.

So yeah, they teased other possibilities and threw smoke in the viewers' eyes, but they always intended the fangs to come out.

  Hide contents

Just as Angel's Season 2 fate is teased by his saying "I'll be damned" when he sees Buffy leaving the Bronze in triumph in The Harvest.  At least the show kept that promise; I'm still pissed that Xander's telling Angel "you're going to die, and I'm going to be there" in Killed by Death went unfulfilled.  Too bad those "centuries of torment" were over so quickly, from our perspective.  Oh, well.

 

Well, he is in a sense, he does in the Wishverse.

 

3 hours ago, Smad said:

I don't think Angel was intended to be a vampire right at the start. They were toying with many ideas at the time. If he was always going to be a vampire however, maybe they shouldn't have had him stand around in direct sunlight.

Does he ever do that? We only really see him in dark alleys and the Bronze?

 

10 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Was Angel ever meant to be such a big part of the series though. After all, he started out as a guest star. Or was he supposed to be there

 

  Hide contents

for two seasons and then die in Becoming?

Buffy needed a love interest and if it wasn't Giles/Xander/Willow?

Edited June 8, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[illdoc]

9 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Was Angel ever meant to be such a big part of the series though. After all, he started out as a guest star. Or was he supposed to be there

I believe he was only supposed to be there for a few episodes and that Xander was supposed to be Buffy's love interest, but apparently there was a lot of heat between the characters, so they decided Angel should stick around and be the love interest and Xander got sidelined (notice in the opening credits, NB is listed second, right after SMG).

[Joe Hellandback]

1 hour ago, illdoc said:

I believe he was only supposed to be there for a few episodes and that Xander was supposed to be Buffy's love interest, but apparently there was a lot of heat between the characters, so they decided Angel should stick around and be the love interest and Xander got sidelined (notice in the opening credits, NB is listed second, right after SMG).

That would have been an interesting dynamic, what would Willow have thought?

[Halting Hex]

Angel is thought to be a potential love interest, but David was originally only contracted for three episodes:  the pilot, Teacher's Pet, and this one.  Joss gave himself a chance to bail, if need be, but he was always open to B/A as much as B/X.

3 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Does [Angel] ever do that? [Stand in direct sunlight].  We only really see him in dark alleys and the Bronze?

Not during the period being discussed, when they wanted to make sure the possibility of his being a vampire wasn't ruled out.  Later on, there's an egregious production flub or two, but that's irrelevant to this discussion.

Oh, and I forgot one of the "he CAN'T be a vampire…can he?" teases:  the necklace that Angel wears underneath his shirt.  It sure looks as though it's a cross…but it's actually an Egyptian ankh.  Gotcha!

[Smad]

5 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Does he ever do that? We only really see him in dark alleys and the Bronze?

In the second part of the Pilot (The Harvest) when Buffy encounters him in the crypt. The sunlight is shining directly on the back of his neck.

[Joe Hellandback]

10 hours ago, Smad said:

In the second part of the Pilot (The Harvest) when Buffy encounters him in the crypt. The sunlight is shining directly on the back of his neck.

I'll have to rewatch

[Halting Hex]

On 6/3/2018 at 11:50 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

Joyce is the first cast member to be bitten by a vamp

Arguably not, since she's not in the main cast and Jesse beat her to that "honor" in the premiere.  I grant you that Jesse only lasted two episodes and this is Joyce's fourth, but IMO she's hardly established on a significantly higher order so far.

Indeed, while I started watching farther into the series and thus knew that Joyce isn't vamped and/or killed here, one of the video-reactors I'm watching was in fact rather worried for her fate.  I mean, they had just seen Principal Flutie turned into Hyena Chow (in his fourth episode), who's to say that Joyce wasn't about to suffer the same gruesome end that other friendly recurring characters such as Jesse, Dr. Gregory (mantis prey in his second episode) and Flutie already had?  

I grant you, there's been no mention of Buffy's dad thus far (for all we know, Joyce merely had some in vitro work done back in 1981), but if he exists, I suppose he could have been introduced after Joyce had been killed off.  But I can understand why the series was unwilling to go there…it's one thing for Xander to lose Jesse, but this might have been a bite too far.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎18‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 7:08 AM, Halting Hex said:

Arguably not, since she's not in the main cast and Jesse beat her to that "honor" in the premiere.  I grant you that Jesse only lasted two episodes and this is Joyce's fourth, but IMO she's hardly established on a significantly higher order so far.

Indeed, while I started watching farther into the series and thus knew that Joyce isn't vamped and/or killed here, one of the video-reactors I'm watching was in fact rather worried for her fate.  I mean, they had just seen Principal Flutie turned into Hyena Chow (in his fourth episode), who's to say that Joyce wasn't about to suffer the same gruesome end that other friendly recurring characters such as Jesse, Dr. Gregory (mantis prey in his second episode) and Flutie already had?  

I grant you, there's been no mention of Buffy's dad thus far (for all we know, Joyce merely had some in vitro work done back in 1981), but if he exists, I suppose he could have been introduced after Joyce had been killed off.  But I can understand why the series was unwilling to go there…it's one thing for Xander to lose Jesse, but this might have been a bite too far.

Yes perhaps a better way to put it was that she's the first we SEE bitten? 

[Halting Hex]

So, I'm watching this one again, this time for Torchwood Boy's reaction vid (yes, I gave in and checked him out…what the heck, he only makes five reactors I'm following as of now…) and as Buffy and Angel are fleeing from The Three, he's completely agog, going "you are not seriously leading them to your house!" time and time again.  And while he calms down a bit once the invitation rule is explained, he still ends with a skeptical "yeah, but now they know where you live."  Which, fair cop, as subsequent events in the episode will show.

I understand that they wanted to establish the invitation rule and of course we need Joyce to get attacked for the plot to work, but by that same token, it just makes Buffy look monumentally stupid here.  Even if you fanwank that Buffy is concerned that Angel's injury won't let him keep up with her if she just leads The Three on a merry chase through various alleyways downtown (remember, she just thinks he's a hunky Cryptic Guy at this point; no superpowers to her knowledge), it's still not exactly brilliant strategy to give away the secret identity so casually.  Remember how Buffy did a whole diatribe in the pilot about how much she hated never getting to tell anybody her secret "because I might endanger them"?  Well, telling the local dark forces endangers you and your mom, Buffy, which is presumably even worse.

The whole point of secrets is to keep them…secret.  "That's what a secret is, when you know something other people don't." —Willow, The Harvest.  Perhaps Will should have clued Buffy in on that secret, too?

[Joe Hellandback]

10 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

So, I'm watching this one again, this time for Torchwood Boy's reaction vid (yes, I gave in and checked him out…what the heck, he only makes five reactors I'm following as of now…) and as Buffy and Angel are fleeing from The Three, he's completely agog, going "you are not seriously leading them to your house!" time and time again.  And while he calms down a bit once the invitation rule is explained, he still ends with a skeptical "yeah, but now they know where you live."  Which, fair cop, as subsequent events in the episode will show.

I understand that they wanted to establish the invitation rule and of course we need Joyce to get attacked for the plot to work, but by that same token, it just makes Buffy look monumentally stupid here.  Even if you fanwank that Buffy is concerned that Angel's injury won't let him keep up with her if she just leads The Three on a merry chase through various alleyways downtown (remember, she just thinks he's a hunky Cryptic Guy at this point; no superpowers to her knowledge), it's still not exactly brilliant strategy to give away the secret identity so casually.  Remember how Buffy did a whole diatribe in the pilot about how much she hated never getting to tell anybody her secret "because I might endanger them"?  Well, telling the local dark forces endangers you and your mom, Buffy, which is presumably even worse.

The whole point of secrets is to keep them…secret.  "That's what a secret is, when you know something other people don't." —Willow, The Harvest.  Perhaps Will should have clued Buffy in on that secret, too?

I guess we follows our instincts? I mean s1 Buffy still

Spoiler

runs to her mother's arms in The Puppet Show

TB is doing 4 Angel eps a week at the moment, you should drop by. 

[Halting Hex]

6 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

TB is doing 4 Angel eps a week at the moment, you should drop by. 

Spoiler

 

"I would, but I'm paralyzed by not caring very much."  Maybe my disinterest in Angel's series will change once I'm caught up to date on all the Buffy reviews, but that's a ways away.

BTW, does the mention of Angel's even getting a spinoff count as a spoiler in pre-S4 threads?  Just wondering.

 

My only problem with TB is that there's not enough, either in terms of vids (only 7 per season? That's semi-acceptable for S1, but I have no idea how that's going to work going forward) or time per vid, where he's generally spending less than 10 minutes on each ep. 

Spoiler

His video for Prophecy Girl, aside from the final battle, was almost entirely the "I Quit" scene and the Master biting Buffy, and while it's nice that he went into more depth on those than other reactors have, I still wanted to see other parts of the episode, like B/W/X romance scenes in Act I, or Buffy's post-"I Quit" depression in Act II, or Xander shaming Angel with the cross in Act III. 

So it felt a little off, IMO.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎28‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 10:47 PM, Halting Hex said:

  Hide contents

 

"I would, but I'm paralyzed by not caring very much."  Maybe my disinterest in Angel's series will change once I'm caught up to date on all the Buffy reviews, but that's a ways away.

BTW, does the mention of Angel's even getting a spinoff count as a spoiler in pre-S4 threads?  Just wondering.

 

My only problem with TB is that there's not enough, either in terms of vids (only 7 per season? That's semi-acceptable for S1, but I have no idea how that's going to work going forward) or time per vid, where he's generally spending less than 10 minutes on each ep. 

  Hide contents

His video for Prophecy Girl, aside from the final battle, was almost entirely the "I Quit" scene and the Master biting Buffy, and while it's nice that he went into more depth on those than other reactors have, I still wanted to see other parts of the episode, like B/W/X romance scenes in Act I, or Buffy's post-"I Quit" depression in Act II, or Xander shaming Angel with the cross in Act III. 

So it felt a little off, IMO.

Yes and folks used to complain about that and he'd actually suspend his reviews in a fit of pique. But now he's doing each and every ep so we're all happy. There are also extended reviews on Patreon. 

 You should really check out his

Spoiler

totally silent review for Hush, it's great, even got mentioned on Whedonesque

[Halting Hex]

Spoiler

But if his vid for that episode plays into the episode's central conceit, doesn't that mean he knew what the episode was about, going in?  I thought he was supposed to be unspoiled?

That said, I'll get there eventually, I'm sure.

[lembergwatcher]

Quote

Buffy: Right. Civil War. During which Angel was already, like, a hundred and change...

Commendably, Buffy has at least an approximate idea about a century in which the Civil War took place.

[lembergwatcher]

Seems like one of the Three defies the basic Buffyversal "vampires need invitation" law. If fang boys cannot cross the threshold of a private residence unless invited, shouldn't they be unable to get some of their body parts in too? Because the vamp's paw is visibly inside Casa Summers. I know it takes only few seconds but shouldn't the golden rule be the same for all uninvited vampires out there?

[Halting Hex]

They can reach in, they just can't come in.  (Well, that's the official line, anyhow.  More likely the director just goofed.)

[Loandbehold]

I think this was one of those cases where they hadn't established all the "rules" yet.

Spoiler

In future episodes, like BB&B, we see that vampires can't even reach through the door if they haven't been invited. 

[Joe Hellandback]

Or the actor didn't listen to the director?

[Halting Hex]

No, apparently it's in the script:

Quote

EXT. BUFFY'S HOUSE - NIGHT

Buffy and Angel run to the front door. The vamps are very close. Buffy opens the door, herds Angel inside.

BUFFY: Get in! Come on!

She is shutting the door as the meanest vampire leaps onto the porch, grabbing for her. She slams the door on his hand -- it withdraws -- and she shuts it. Looks out the window, worried.

ANGEL: It's all right. A vampire can't come in unless it's invited.

BUFFY: I heard that, but I never put it to the test before.

So it was meant to be a close call, after all. 

Spoiler

(And later "complete invisible wall" deviations [BB&B, Passion, Lovers Walk, Crush] are inconsistent with what's established here, even if IMO they take a more-logical approach.)

So no demerits for the late, great Scott Brazil (director).  Which is good; IMO this is fine work he does here, just as he did in his heyday on Hill Street Blues.  Hey, Buffy…let's be careful out there. 🙂

[lembergwatcher]

Jealous Xander is so funny sometimes. But Xillow's always cute.

[Halting Hex]

That's why I love Willow so;  she's capable of being completely swept up in a moment, while simultaneously seeing the practical aspects.  She was totally captivated by Xander's chugging the Gatorade™ (probably moreso than whichever bimbo he was trying to impress)…and yet she remembers the "ick factor" just as strongly.

Just as when she's all swoony over the idea of Buffy/Angel romance…and yet points out the "you'll age, he won't" problem and "what about the children?"  The perfect blend of idealism leavened with realism.  

Love ya, Will. 😍

[Halting Hex]

So Liam Catterson joined Torchwood Boy as a reactor who noted the foolhardiness of Buffy leading the vampires to her house.  And yes, that's just Greenwalt being sloppy; he doesn't worry about the vampires having this information because he knows that the Three/Darla will all be dead by episode's end, so Buffy doesn't have to worry about her mom getting drained dry because she stopped for a latté on the way home from the gallery and now it's after dark and the vampires are waiting to ambush her, or anything like that.  But of course Buffy shouldn't have that knowledge (not unless those Slayer prophecy dreams are getting really specific, I guess), so that's sloppy writing, as I note.

But what I realized this time is that I don't know if Darla found out the address because The Three told her; she could simply have followed Buffy home from school, after spying on her and Willow from the stacks.  Which would explain if the Master doesn't send more vampires to "1630 Revello Drive" after this episode;  the information never reached him at all.

Which means it's the vampires who were being sloppy, because honestly it does seem that at least one of The Four (Three+ Darla) should have seen the benefit to going "Master! I have discovered the Slayer's home!" and passing the news along this way. Apparently the slain Zachary (motivation for the Master's initial anger at Buffy) was the brains of the outfit.  Huh.

It's also interesting to note that Darla is so over Buffy by now; in Welcome to the Hellmouth, she was completely intimidated after Buffy dusted Thomas, and spent a good portion of time quailing while Buffy sassed her, until Luke came to her rescue.  Now she is completely unimpressed by Buffy's snarking on her hair, her outfit, her age, whatever.

Quote

BUFFY cocks the crossbow

DARLA:  Scary (Darla pulls out two pistols) Scary-er.

Quote

Darla looks down, regards the crossbow bolt that Buffy just shot into her abdomen.

DARLA (coolly):  Close.  But no heart.

She's convinced herself that she has nothing to fear from the (metaphorically) big bad Slayer, at all.   It's only the opponent she doesn't imagine, Angel, who takes her down, in the end.

[Halting Hex]

Buffy mocks the idea that she needs to practice with the quarterstaff (and gets Giles to drop it as promptly as she drops him), but Giles was quarterstaffed into unconsciousness by Dr. Weirick (the zookeeper) only last episode.  Poles and logs and such are easy "found" weapons for a foe to suddenly arm themselves with;  it might in fact behoove Buffy to learn how to defend against them.

Indeed, it's arguable that they shouldn't skip ahead just because Buffy shows skill at using her own staff, since there's no guarantee she and her opponent will be equally equipped.  (Giles didn't have a pole of his own to parry the zookeeper with, after all.)  A bit of considering what to do when the bad guy has the range advantage couldn't hurt, IMO.

Spoiler

Maybe this would have enabled her to make a better showing when Spike surprises her by grabbing that beam in School Hard, rather than needing to be rescued by a passing Joyce, which she could hardly have been counting on.

ETA:  In fact, David Greenwalt's next three scripts after this one will feature Buffy having to combat a ranged attack:  the Ugly Man and his baseball bat/cudgel in Nightmares, Spike and his beam in School Hard, and Tom Warner and his sword in Reptile Boy.    Greenwalt won't pit Buffy in pure hand-to-hand until she fights Ted in Ted.  (And she wins that one by using the skillet, which isn't much of a range-extender, but is to some extent.)

So maybe Giles knew what he was talking about, after all.  In Nightmares, Greenwalt does have Giles lament at Buffy's graveside that he didn't train her thoroughly enough…

I'm also not thrilled by Angel lying to Buffy about why he was there to help Buffy against the Three ("I live nearby; I was just out for a walk").  It seems an unnecessary fib.

I understand that Greenwalt wants Buffy to have a reason to start her search for Angel at the Bronze later on ("He lives nearby"), but that's silly…Angel could have been lying, after all.  Especially as she thinks he's a murderously evil vampire at that point…why should she trust his info, exactly?  (And he is fibbing about the "out for a walk" part, in fact.)  A simple "I saw you at the club, thought I'd talk to you" would have served Angel perfectly well, IMO.  (And later Buffy could just have gone "He's at the Bronze a lot; I might as well start there" or whatever.)

Edited May 21, 2021 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

On 5/21/2021 at 5:36 AM, Halting Hex said:

I'm also not thrilled by Angel lying to Buffy about why he was there to help Buffy against the Three ("I live nearby; I was just out for a walk").  It seems an unnecessary fib.

Remember that Buffyverse characters always lie to someone in order to "protect" the said person. Angel did it for Buffy's own "good".