Mad Men - General Discussion

[sistermagpie]

17 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

Fun episode, especially with Don getting back at Roger by the end for getting touchy with his wife.

I also love/hate how in your face it is that Roger has to apologize to DON for insulting DON while Betty continues to be insulted by both men and nobody cares.

8 minutes ago, qtpye said:

@MagnusHex your analysis is both interesting and very thoughtful. I would have totally agreed with you on many points if I did not have the benefit of watching the full series. You should continue with your analysis because this is a fascinating show. It does not matter if you are right or wrong.

 

I agree! I would have as well--and some things I didn't think about but considered after you suggested it. I'd miss it if you stopped.

 

 

[MagnusHex]

S1E08: The Hobo Code

Took a little break because life happened. 😛

I really like The AV Club's opening statement about this episode:

Quote

"If Mad Men is about inviting the audience to discern the truest selves of its characters, then Don Draper’s truest self is the man who leaves when the going gets tough, who’s made note of all of the escape hatches on his first time through the bunker, just in case. The problem is that the switch for “just in case” gets flipped sooner and sooner with every year. First, it’s leaving behind his past to join the military. Then, it’s assuming someone else’s identity under what are still mysterious circumstances at this point in the show’s run. But eventually, it’s just something like trying to decamp for Paris after Bert gives him a little “pep” talk that hits too close to home. (Bert believes that Don, like him, doesn’t really care about anyone but himself. Bert thinks of this as a good thing.) Center your life on escape, and pretty soon, all you see are escape hatches."

Much like the other celebrated episode, Babylon, I felt a little bored watching The Hobo Code, and that did get me thinking whether I should watch another show instead, because I didn't really feel connected to the characters. These are Americans from the '60s; I'm a Singaporean Chinese who grew up in the '90s. Our lifestyles couldn't be more different.

But I feel like part of the reason why I felt bored watching what's considered to be a television masterpiece is from having a lack of context, from not seeing the bigger picture of what these characters are supposed to be like (as I'll explain later with Peggy and Pete in this episode), not knowing the "true form" characters like Peggy or Joan would take in later seasons. It's also because I'm a bit slow (maybe more than a bit) in picking up subtle character gestures and cues. But once I read these AV Club reviews that basically inform me what's going on, shining an 'aha' lightbulb in me, Don actually feels a lot more relatable to me than I had initially thought.

See, I'm an escapist of sorts too. I too ran from my past, changing different identities on the Internet. Everytime I had an argument with a community, I would join a different one, sometimes under a different moniker. That's why that line Emily St. James said in the above Mad Men review struck a chord with me: "Center your life on escape, and pretty soon all you see are escape hatches." It never ends, your escapes. I knew that from experience. Eventually, you come to a point where you just have to settle down and deal with the mess you've created, regardless of the spoiled image and reputation you have wrought. Someday, Don would have to deal with that too, his cheating, his lying, his past.

Now onto other parts of the episode, such as HEY IT'S FATHER PHIL FROM THE SOPRANOS (as the Hobo)! Which I also just started watching! lol I didn't recognize him at first until it's pointed out to me.

Sal's homosexual plotline gets a real development here as the show confirms his sexuality for the first time without doing that usual subtle hinting it's so fantastic at. It was still ambiguous before this episode, but The Hobo Code pretty much spells out for you that Sal is gay, and he had to deal with that kind of baggage in the '60s, which is such a fascinating sub-plot.

And the truth is... I enjoy that kind of straightforward storytelling a lot more than subtle character cues. I dislike rewatching shows because I like new and shiny stuff, not retread old stories, so I prefer my stories to be clear and easily understood the first time so that I could get the full experience; all the emotions I'm supposed to feel, all the context I'm supposed to relate with and understand. As Emily pointed out, Don and Sal's character arcs in this episode are pretty clear-cut. I pretty much know what the deal is with these two characters by now, and that's great! Because then I know what makes these characters tick, and I wouldn't be distracted by misinterpretations of their personality (see my previous analysis of Joan). This isn't Lost; a character drama should let us understand the characters properly so that we can get connected with them. Unfortunately, this isn't the case with the more opaque Peggy and Pete plotline (and also Joan's).

Naturally, I was quite surprised by Peggy's actions here as I had thought she was more reserved and conservative prior to this episode. But that girl has ambitions. It's just a shame Pete's such a dickhead at this point of the series, so incompetent in talking to women. It's just sad watching Pete, because he's like a pathetic fish flopping about in his attempts to emulate Don and fail trying, stuck between his marriage (to a stranger he barely knows anymore) and his pitiful womanizing (that's part of the aforementioned emulation of Don Draper).

But yeah, I hope Peggy, Pete and Joan would go through a similar revelation like Don and Sal in the future, because I would like to really understand their characters without being left in the dark.

Edited April 11, 2022 by MagnusHex

[sistermagpie]

On 4/11/2022 at 11:30 AM, MagnusHex said:

See, I'm an escapist of sorts too. I too ran from my past, changing different identities on the Internet. Everytime I had an argument with a community, I would join a different one, sometimes under a different moniker. That's why that line Emily St. James said in the above Mad Men review struck a chord with me: "Center your life on escape, and pretty soon all you see are escape hatches." It never ends, your escapes. I knew that from experience. Eventually, you come to a point where you just have to settle down and deal with the mess you've created, regardless of the spoiled image and reputation you have wrought. Someday, Don would have to deal with that too, his cheating, his lying, his past.

Looking back, it's really great to me how easy it is to understand/relate to Don's needing to run away. It even fits in perfectly to his job, because he seems to always want to just crawl into the commercial where the product gives him what he's missing.

On 4/11/2022 at 11:30 AM, MagnusHex said:

Naturally, I was quite surprised by Peggy's actions here as I had thought she was more reserved and conservative prior to this episode. But that girl has ambitions. It's just a shame Pete's such a dickhead at this point of the series, so incompetent in talking to women. It's just sad watching Pete, because he's like a pathetic fish flopping about in his attempts to emulate Don and fail trying, stuck between his marriage (to a stranger he barely knows anymore) and his pitiful womanizing (that's part of the aforementioned emulation of Don Draper).

And yet, he's not actually incompetent in this ep because Peggy is apparently into it! 

But in general, yeah, I like how Pete kind of strips away all the glamour that Don brings to womanizing and makes you question how different it really is. In some ways a lot, but in some ways...not. And in some ways what he unreasonable wants from the woman is exactly what Don is chasing--to feel like the other person completely knows him and makes him feel completely perfect just the way he is. 

On 4/11/2022 at 11:30 AM, MagnusHex said:

But yeah, I hope Peggy, Pete and Joan would go through a similar revelation like Don and Sal in the future, because I would like to really understand their characters without being left in the dark.

Peggy and Pete are a bit weird, so it's really hard to nail down what they're about as characters in the way you can get that Sal is just gay and that's his issue. Did you get anything more about Pete from New Amsterdam? I felt like that episode shed a lot light on him.

I feel like Joan, at this point, is a woman who thinks she knows how to play the game and is great at the game--but is in denial about how unappealing the ultimate prize ( get married and move to the suburbs after you've had your fun but before you're an old maid) is to her in reality.

[qtpye]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I feel like Joan, at this point, is a woman who thinks she knows how to play the game and is great at the game--but is in denial about how unappealing the ultimate prize ( get married and move to the suburbs after you've had your fun but before you're an old maid) is to her in reality.

Also, the changing roles of women in the 60s are also going to change what the game means. Joan is a queen bee because of her desirability and relationship with Roger but her old-fashioned attitudes do hold her back because she thinks things should be a certain way.

[sistermagpie]

17 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Also, the changing roles of women in the 60s are also going to change what the game means. Joan is a queen bee because of her desirability and relationship with Roger but her old-fashioned attitudes do hold her back because she thinks things should be a certain way.

Yes, so many of her ideas about how to do things start with the idea that there's not far you can go. Like there's a moment where she even basically says to Peggy that she's never tried to be part of the men's world so she can't give advice on how to navigate it the way Peggy needs to do (except then, iirc, she does give her good advice to not dress like a little girl).

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, so many of her ideas about how to do things start with the idea that there's not far you can go. Like there's a moment where she even basically says to Peggy that she's never tried to be part of the men's world so she can't give advice on how to navigate it the way Peggy needs to do (except then, iirc, she does give her good advice to not dress like a little girl).

Joan and Peggy had such a unique relationship.

They were not exactly friends because Joan did not understand Peggy and Peggy put Joan too much upon a pedestal (at first). However, they did end up being two women who respected each other even if they did not always get along.

 

[sistermagpie]

39 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Joan and Peggy had such a unique relationship.

They were not exactly friends because Joan did not understand Peggy and Peggy put Joan too much upon a pedestal (at first). However, they did end up being two women who respected each other even if they did not always get along.

 

Something I sometimes love on the show is where a couple of characters who don't usually interact can find themselves in a situation where they work really well together. Like Peggy and Joan aren't friends, but there's times, especially in later eps, where they are exactly who each wants to speak with. 

[MagnusHex]

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Did you get anything more about Pete from New Amsterdam? I felt like that episode shed a lot light on him.

Oh yeah, I caught what Pete's deal is from New Amsterdam. I guess I miswrote; Peggy's the bigger enigma between the two than Pete. Pete is pretty straightforward: daddy issues, desiring parental approval. Pretty much like me to be honest, always seeking the approval of a higher power, relying on others to define your worth.

I think Pete played with fire in that episode, so determined in proving himself worthy as Don's successor that he messed up. He lacked Peggy's subtlety (which ultimately led her to be the more suitable successor, I heard), and is like a kid flaunting around a rifle, trying to show everyone what a man he is, only to be reduced to a shell by his own wife for buying a boy's toy. He's unsubtle enough that it's pretty easy to figure him out, at least for this first season.

I was pretty surprised at first when Pete got fired (one reason being that Don didn't outright said he's fired, and merely said in a roundabout way like "put all your things in a box" or something), because usually, characters have enough plot-armor that Pete would've gotten away with it on an average drama, perhaps even impressing Don. Not Man Men. Not on this realistic show where you do risk getting fired like in the real world.

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

Oh yeah, I caught what Pete's deal is from New Amsterdam. I guess I miswrote; Peggy's the bigger enigma between the two than Pete.

I think that's accurate, really. Peggy's very hard to pin down. There are things about her that are clear, but maybe part of the thing with her character is she starts out not knowing who she is, but not wanting to be any of the things she sees around her. 

10 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

I think Pete played with fire in that episode, so determined in proving himself worthy as Don's successor that he messed up. He lacked Peggy's subtlety (which ultimately led her to be the more suitable successor, I heard),

Also, I think Pete's just the type of person Don hates on sight. He sees him as having been born with all the advantages--which is true--but at the same time doesn't recognize that advantages that he has that Pete doesn't, or the advantages/disadvantages that they both share. Like when they talk about Nixon vs. Kennedy Don obviously sees himself in Nixon and thinks Pete's Kennedy, but one could just as easily make the opposite argument. (Don also later sees himself in Joe Frazier vs. Muhammad Ali in the same way.)

[txhorns79]

Robert Morse aka Bert Cooper has passed away at 90.  He had a very long career, and I like to think Mad Men was kind of a cherry on top of it. 

[Inquisitionist]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Robert Morse aka Bert Cooper has passed away at 90.  He had a very long career, and I like to think Mad Men was kind of a cherry on top of it. 

Indeed!  His portrayal of Bert Cooper was such a treat for long-time fans and newbies alike.

The Hollywood Reporter says he died peacefully at home, following a short illness.  That's the way to do it.  Rest in peace and love, Mr. Morse!

Edited April 21, 2022 by Inquisitionist

[Inquisitionist]

The best things in life are free...

 

[SunnyBeBe]

The actress who played Sally is on Seth Myers tonight.  She looks older, but much the same.  Her speech is quite different though.  She sounds completely different.  

[qtpye]

8 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

The actress who played Sally is on Seth Myers tonight.  She looks older, but much the same.  Her speech is quite different though.  She sounds completely different.  

Yes, she was a very gifted child actress.

However, in the last year of the show, she had this deadpan delivery that was a little strange.

[SunnyBeBe]

She seemed quite animated on the Myers show.  In fact, I thought she was over the top.  Mainly, her voice seemed to be rather fake.  Like she was trying too hard.  Idk.  It was odd, imo.

[RedDelicious]

8 hours ago, qtpye said:

Yes, she was a very gifted child actress.

However, in the last year of the show, she had this deadpan delivery that was a little strange.

I agree but I think that was deliberate to show Sally was over Don and Betty's bullsh*t and was beginning to eclipse them in maturity.

Edited April 28, 2022 by RedDelicious

[txhorns79]

On 4/28/2022 at 4:45 PM, RedDelicious said:

I agree but I think that was deliberate to show Sally was over Don and Betty's bullsh*t and was beginning to eclipse them in maturity.

I thought a lot of it was just teenage angst.  She's fairly biting and sarcastic with Betty, which my recollection tells me is not out of the ordinary for teenage daughter/mother interactions. 

Though I do agree that she clearly is showing more maturity than her parents, particularly when it becomes clear Betty is going to die. 

[qtpye]

15 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I thought a lot of it was just teenage angst.  She's fairly biting and sarcastic with Betty, which my recollection tells me is not out of the ordinary for teenage daughter/mother interactions. 

Though I do agree that she clearly is showing more maturity than her parents, particularly when it becomes clear Betty is going to die. 

 I was torn between thinking that Betty was a champ for accepting her death so heroically or contempt that she was so vain for just being happy that she will never grow old and die relatively young and beautiful.

I can't even imagine how it was for Sally.

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, qtpye said:

 I was torn between thinking that Betty was a champ for accepting her death so heroically or contempt that she was so vain for just being happy that she will never grow old and die relatively young and beautiful.

 

I give her props for being very aware that she might be thinking that. Her own mother died when Betty was, what? Ten years older than Sally? She was still beautiful, and left Betty pretty messed up about that whole area of life.

Sally did a lot of figuring out on her own, or with the help of people like Dr. Edna, but in the end Betty's final note to her basically said she admired Sally for her personality and wanted her life to be an adventure, which was a much better choice than her own mother, so I come down on the champ side. Especially since she was right--her treatment really wouldn't extend her life. She was going to die at that age either way.

[RNbynite]

On 6/1/2014 at 8:01 PM, poeticlicensed said:

Seasons best to worst for me are 2,3,1,4, 7,5,6. 

I am going to miss all the 1960s tchotskies that I see on the show. The set decorators did a great job of finding or creating memorabilia of the day.

My parents had the  glasses with the gold leaves that the Drapers had and were also in the office. The diamond shaped wood chess piece plaques that were in Don's apartment hung in my parents family room. The Drapers kitchen and family room were like a hundred I visited in my childhood. We had that knotty pine wood paneling in our family room. My parents had fondue parties,just like Megan and Don did. Even those fugly moasic things on Peggy's wall in her living room I swear I saw. And a million other little details from lunch boxes to princess phones. Such a blast from the past. I'm going to miss it

Original Revere Ware. I have my mother’s …….. in excellent shape. Not many things are made as well now.

[Inquisitionist]

Found MM streaming with limited ads on something called FreeVee, which I accessed through Amazon Prime.  This morning I watched the last 3 episodes of S6 (Favors, The Quality of Mercy, In Care Of).  What an exceptionally strong trio.  A lot of funky stuff happened before that in S6, but this finishing run was among my favorites.

[Hiyo]

Mad Men at 15: how the genius advertising drama foresaw the death of the American dream.

[SunnyBeBe]

I’m watching January Jones playing a mother on the series Spinning Out.  It’s very similar to Betty.  I’m not very impressed with her though.  It’s a little too much Lifetime like for my taste.  

[LemonSoda]

iTunes currently has the complete series on sale for $14.99 if anyone is interested. 

Edited September 1, 2022 by LemonSoda

[MagnusHex]

First time viewer of Mad Men finally returns after a long departure. Nice to be back.

Took a long break after a few episodes of season 2 of Mad Men (among other shows) to play some video games, and finally came back to watch it a few weeks ago. I'm glad episodes of Mad Men, Sopranos, and even The Wire (to some extent) can be watched individually with large time gaps between each episode's viewing, because my memory isn't the best when it comes to remembering what happened in the previous episode.

But Mad Men isn't really a show that I place too much concern on remembering the sequence of events because, to me anyway, having seen almost two seasons so far, it feels like a show where I remember the character development more than memorable/iconic moments. For example, for The Wire or Sopranos, those are shows where I would remember "X character dies" or "Y character arrives and meets the main cast." But for Mad Men, half the times I can't remember what happened with Don two episodes ago, but I do remember enough that I could feel that character growth anyway regardless of the details, if that makes any sense. If character development can have an atmosphere, Mad Men is full of it, which is appropriate because, as others have described, Mad Men feels like a high quality soap opera (without the melodrama), and soap operas are character-centric, not plot-centric.

Currently, the last episode I've seen was The Gold Violin. It's the episode where Jimmy basically told Don to F off, the balls on that guy, and also the one where Joan gets walled off by the new generation's Jane, who might or might not have played the game of office politics far better than a younger Joan once did. I love Joan any day of the week and have great respect for her, and much as I agreed with her on Jane's lack of professionalism, Jane impresses me with her wits and brains, not to mention catching my attention with her fun and rebellious Cooper-break-in. She knows how to play them boys. At the very least, she makes a nice antagonist for Joan in the office. I hope she sticks around for a while at least, because I find her more interesting now because of this episode (even though her attempt to attract male-gaze in a previous episode was something as well).

What stood out for me the most in this episode, surprisingly, wasn't even Don's beef with Jimmy (probably because I got spoiled about that a while ago, but also because I just didn't care much for Jimmy as a character), but rather, Salvatore's dinner with Ken, which is just a tragic farce. I read in the AV Club review how Kitty has a far more tragic role as a wife than say... sigh, Betty. Salvatore knows how to charm his wife obviously more than Don, but his appeasement feels so... fake, almost as superficial as say, a gold violin. 😉 Or as superficial as Cooper's painting, probably, which I felt had no deeper meaning at all other than two shades of red, but I'm not a very artsy person. lol Even Cooper admitted he bought it for investment purposes.

I am still liking this series so far, but I'm pretty used to not understand the business talk elements of the episodes. Once they started talking about Martinson's, I was a bit lost because I was thinking, "Why are they talking about a coffee shop all of a sudden?" The dialogue is a bit fast for my comfort is what I'm saying, but I'm used to it by this point, just hitting that double arrows and rewinding the scene.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

But Mad Men isn't really a show that I place too much concern on remembering the sequence of events because, to me anyway, having seen almost two seasons so far, it feels like a show where I remember the character development more than memorable/iconic moments. For example, for The Wire or Sopranos, those are shows where I would remember "X character dies" or "Y character arrives and meets the main cast." But for Mad Men, half the times I can't remember what happened with Don two episodes ago, but I do remember enough that I could feel that character growth anyway regardless of the details, if that makes any sense. If character development can have an atmosphere, Mad Men is full of it, which is appropriate because, as others have described, Mad Men feels like a high quality soap opera (without the melodrama), and soap operas are character-centric, not plot-centric.

Yes! That's something that definitely makes MM stand out for me. It's less one story than a collection of short stories, so it's perfectly fine to watch things out of order. Sure they're moving forward in time so people will be in different places, but the audience is, imo, meant to live in the moment just like the characters do.

4 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

Currently, the last episode I've seen was The Gold Violin. It's the episode where Jimmy basically told Don to F off, the balls on that guy, and also the one where Joan gets walled off by the new generation's Jane, who might or might not have played the game of office politics far better than a younger Joan once did. 

One important difference between Joan and Jane is just the time periods they live in--and when they show up in Roger's life. He was in a very different place when he met Joan than Jane.

[MagnusHex]

Mad Men, season 2, episode 8: A Night to Remember

Oh man, what an episode. Betty finally calling Don out on his cheating, and yet, there's so many layers to this conversation. For one thing, while I did feel that Betts was being her usual petulant self in her repetitive insistence that she was embarrassed by Don, I think (correct me if I'm wrong) it's probably the first time in the series I've seen her being this aggressive towards finally confronting Don on his affairs, and if I'm wrong and it wasn't, it felt like Betty has more justification to bring up this particular affair specifically because there's more "proof" per se this time. Not solid proof, since Jimmy could've been lying if we the audience didn't know the truth, and Betty's observation of Don and Bobbie's interaction wasn't hard evidence. And yet, there's just something about this particular latest tantrum of Betty that felt "right" because not only have we seen first-hand that Don did indeed sleep with Bobbie multiple times and lying to Betty's face about it, but Bobbie was also Jimmy's wife, so there's really two victims from Don's actions: Betty and Jimmy. So Betty calling out Don on his BS felt more justified than ever.

And yet, on the other hand, you have Don, whom over the past few episodes, had become disgusted by himself more and more with every episode, especially after Sally stared at him shaving at the end of Maidenform, going so far as to just tie Bobbie up and leaving the hotel instead of getting it on with her during their intercourse in the same episode. So when Betty accused Don of sleeping with Bobbie by A Night to Remember, Betty was half-right: Don had stopped sleeping with Bobbie out of disgust (towards his acts and what he has become). So when Betty proceeded to assume that she understood the kind of man Don was, essentially accusing him of still participating in the cheating with Bobbie, Don felt offended, not just because it wasn't entirely true either but also because of Don's insecurities with his own identity. "You don't know me. You don't even know that I'm not Don Draper." is what was probably going through Don's mind. lol

I'm only less than halfway through this episode so far, so I might have more to add later.

Edit:

It's kinda sad to see that Betty couldn't find hard evidence of Don's cheating. She seemed so convinced this time that she was right, and we KNOW she was right. Don deserved that couch.

Oh yeah, and Peggy is really starting to fit into her role as a copywriter snugly, even adopting Don's pride in the work when she complained to Father Gill about having her work criticized in such a way ("They don't know better than me"). It's also weird to see Colin Hanks playing a level-headed priest that's not a schizophrenic zealot after seeing his role in Dexter.

Harry is an idiot to have replaced Joan. She could've brought a more balanced perspective as a female voice to the job. Even if it merely involved script-reading, she might have picked up something a man in the '60s (with all his biasness) couldn't. See Peggy for proof of this, pointing out all the things Don couldn't. I know Roger suggested getting a new hire to replace Joan... or something (honestly, most of the dialogue in Mad Men just flies over my head sometimes, this episode in particular), but Harry should've pushed back and requested for Joan to remain in that position.

Edit 2:

What a powerful ending. Don deserved to be kicked out. It's about time Don tasted the bitter side of adultery.

Edited October 27, 2022 by MagnusHex

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

Mad Men, season 2, episode 8: A Night to Remember

Oh man, what an episode. Betty finally calling Don out on his cheating, and yet, there's so many layers to this conversation. For one thing, while I did feel that Betts was being her usual petulant self in her repetitive insistence that she was embarrassed by Don, I think (correct me if I'm wrong) it's probably the first time in the series I've seen her being this aggressive towards finally confronting Don on his affairs, and if I'm wrong and it wasn't, it felt like Betty has more justification to bring up this particular affair specifically because there's more "proof" per se this time. Not solid proof, since Jimmy could've been lying if we the audience didn't know the truth, and Betty's observation of Don and Bobbie's interaction wasn't hard evidence. And yet, there's just something about this particular latest tantrum of Betty that felt "right" because not only have we seen first-hand that Don did indeed sleep with Bobbie multiple times and lying to Betty's face about it, but Bobbie was also Jimmy's wife, so there's really two victims from Don's actions: Betty and Jimmy. So Betty calling out Don on his BS felt more justified than ever.

Also, it was probably worse for Betty because she was set up. It was flattering to her that Jimmy liked her--not just in a superficial way of her being pretty, but that she got to be a team with Don and bring something to that part of his life. Then it turned out she was just being humiliated. Jimmy wanted to tell her about the affair, Bobbi was sleeping with her husband, Don was sleeping with the other woman.

12 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

Harry is an idiot to have replaced Joan. She could've brought a more balanced perspective as a female voice to the job. Even if it merely involved script-reading, she might have picked up something a man in the '60s (with all his biasness) couldn't. See Peggy for proof of this, pointing out all the things Don couldn't. I know Roger suggested getting a new hire to replace Joan... or something (honestly, most of the dialogue in Mad Men just flies over my head sometimes, this episode in particular), but Harry should've pushed back and requested for Joan to remain in that position.

Roger didn't just suggest they get a new person, it was the only thing anybody ever thought of as a possibility. It never occurred to him or Harry, even after Joan was so good at the job, to keep her on because in their minds it was a man's job.

It makes me think of something I heard about a movie (I won't mention the title in case it's a spoiler). They were getting toward the end of filming and didn't know how to end it. The director and lead actress kept trying to figure it out--did she follow her dream and lose the guy or stay behind with him and lose the dream? And finally the lead actor was like, "Um, why don't I go with her? Doesn't seem like I really have much keeping me here."

And it was like a revelation that neither the male director or actress even considered a man following a woman, just because it was the early 70s and men didn't do that. Never entered their minds.

[MagnusHex]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It makes me think of something I heard about a movie (I won't mention the title in case it's a spoiler). They were getting toward the end of filming and didn't know how to end it. The director and lead actress kept trying to figure it out--did she follow her dream and lose the guy or stay behind with him and lose the dream? And finally the lead actor was like, "Um, why don't I go with her? Doesn't seem like I really have much keeping me here."

And it was like a revelation that neither the male director or actress even considered a man following a woman, just because it was the early 70s and men didn't do that. Never entered their minds.

Spoiler

You had me thinking La La Land for a while there until those last few sentences and mentioning the '70s.

Edited October 28, 2022 by MagnusHex

[sistermagpie]

18 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

  Hide contents

You had me thinking La La Land for a while there until those last few sentences and mentioning the '70s.

It wasn't! But if anyone wants to be spoiled...

Spoiler

"Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore." The director was Martin Scorcese, actress Ellen Burstyn and male lead Kris Kristofferson. Eventually sort of made into a long-running sitcom, "Alice." 

[MagnusHex]

Mad Men, season 2, episode 9: Six Month Leave

Six days prior to this episode's airing, this happened:

And that's how Mad Men went from a cult soap opera to joining the Prestige TV Club, alongside The Sopranos, The Wire, Deadwood, and Breaking Bad. 😆

Unfortunately, despite the happy ceremony, this episode starts out on a grim note: Marilyn Monroe was dead in the timeline of this episode. I really didn't see that coming when they had that Jacqueline/Marilyn Playtex ad. Nice payoff. Next thing you're gonna tell me that something tragic's gonna happen to Jacqueline... or her family. But that'll have to wait... till season 3, episode 12, The Grown-Ups.

And Freddy's pissed himself, passed out on job, and most likely about to get fired. Also, Don and Betty are still fighting, inadvertently getting the kids involved in the process. So yeah, lots of happy cheers all around this episode. It's rather ironic that Roger claimed Don's loyalty is a liability for his defense of Freddy when a lack of loyalty is what made Don homeless in the first place. Bros before hoes, I guess. Such a hypocrite. Don's only pissed (pun unintended) at the boys making fun of Freddy because he relates with Freddy's situation when his own reputation came into question after Bobbie, then Betty, called him out as an adulterer. Don might have a moral code throughout the series from time to time, and he might have a friendship with Freddy, but this wasn't him taking a righteous stand; this moment was all about Don Draper feeling bad about his own image.

Gotta admit though, I kinda felt good about him giving Jimmy that hook, even if Jimmy was justified in calling out Don sleeping with his wife. Jimmy's a smug little weasel (Roger had it right) and an unprofessional business partner all around. That being said, Don's no better here since he's acting like a child (that's what he loves to tell Betty, remember?). He cheated on Betts, then proceeds to throw a tantrum at Jimmy for telling on him by punching him. Reminds me of my school days when I did a little fighting of my own. Lastly, even though his heart was bleeding for Freddy leaving his job, he fired Jane without a second thought just because Roger decided to follow his advice. Both Don and Jimbo should just jump in a river together. They deserve each other.

Now, since I hardly know Freddy as a person or even as a character, I don't feel too bad about him getting sacked. After all, it's made Peggy, a much more likable character, rise up in ranks. Pete did the right thing - for the show if not the company.

I do understand Joan and the secretaries' reactions to Marilyn's death. I remember a time when I was broken up about what happened to Chadwick Boseman. Then after a while, I started to realize it's all idol-worship of strangers you've never even met, placing a self-entitled and false ideal image on these celebrities that probably caused more pressure on said celebrities as they try to live up to that unrealistic image. So ironically, our worship made their lives even more bitter.

Such worship isn't new, of course, going as far back as when the world believed miracles and curses were real. I'm reading House of Fata Morgana right now, and it features a woman who was worshiped as a saint who could cure people with her miracle blood. She believed in it too as a result... only she was just an ordinary woman who's involved with unfortunate coincidences. People took advantage of that miracle and moved on to another saint when she was no longer useful. Celebritydom, I tell you, is a toxic culture.

Edited October 31, 2022 by MagnusHex

[MagnusHex]

Mad Men, season 2, episode 10: The Inheritance

Not much to say about this one to be honest, so I'll just make a few bullet points:

1. Glenn and Betty's relationship remains as creepy as ever.
    
2. I was defensive of Betty's position before because Don was obviously in the wrong. That's before Betty manipulated Don's emotions in their bedroom, making love to him in a moment that made me do a spit take, wondering if I've missed a scene where they reconciled. That "it's just for show" excuse doesn't hold up either since NO ONE was in their bedroom while they were making love. It's all for Betty's self-pity.
    
3. I know that a divorce would affect the children as well, but on the other hand, I find this kind of "relationship" in TV shows tedious. Doesn't really help that Mad Men has been often called a soap opera... because this is a very soapey kind of storyline, this "will they/won't they get back together or fight forever" kind of situation. I hope a payoff/conclusion comes soon for their farce of a relationship.
    
4. Paul remains a self-righteous arse even when he's helping out a cause (accompanying his girlfriend and black voters to Mississippi).

Edited November 3, 2022 by MagnusHex

[sistermagpie]

On 11/3/2022 at 11:03 AM, MagnusHex said:

1. Glenn and Betty's relationship remains as creepy as ever.

It's kind of funny to think of this relationship in context of the show on the whole because it's just so very very very bizarre. There's not any other relationships quite so strange.

On 11/3/2022 at 11:03 AM, MagnusHex said:

1. Paul remains a self-righteous arse even when he's helping out a cause (accompanying his girlfriend and black voters to Mississippi).

That scene is just so Paul. He didn't even really want to go, but he so wants to be the guy that would go.

[MagnusHex]

Mad Men, season 2, episode 11: The Jet Set

Of course, the big bomb of a scene this week is the Kurt scene, particularly because of Salvatore's presence when this was announced. Gotta love his expression. "Well, okay then. Dropping the truth bomb out of the closet. Just like that."

I love that Smitty said that he's from Europe, how America was very different in the '60s. As a non-American whose country was colonialized by the Brits in the past (Singapore), I can tell you that homosexuality acceptance didn't become a thing either until the 2010s at least.

I think we've all (or at least most of us) assumed that Duck was going to backstab Sterling Cooper the first viewing. Kinda glad to see Duck growing a spine, 'coz he was otherwise uninteresting for the past season. Then again, I have trouble getting attached to new recurring characters after the first season (or in Duck's case, near the end of the first).

Joy just seemed like a female Don; impetuous in their sexual escapades, leaving a trail of children taken care of by estranged spouses. I get why Don feels guilty after seeing Joy's children though. It's practically his Kryptonite.

Meanwhile, the Cuban missile crisis closes in...

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

Joy just seemed like a female Don; impetuous in their sexual escapades, leaving a trail of children taken care of by estranged spouses. I get why Don feels guilty after seeing Joy's children though. It's practically his Kryptonite.

Oh, those aren't Joy's children. Joy's only 21. The guy's looking for someone else in their group - but Don can obviously relate, probably both with the absent mother and with the kid.

[MagnusHex]

Mad Men, season 2, episode 12: The Mountain King

What the fuck, Greg?!

I told myself that I would refrain from writing a post until I finish the episode (and read AV Club's analysis of it) because that would give me better insight to discuss the episode... but I just had to word that above statement out after the scene because I didn't even pay attention to that forgettable spouse of Joan's till this fucking scene. Again... what the fuck? I guess I should've paid more attention to Greg's insecurities towards Joan's successful career, because that came out of nowhere for me.

Even though marital rape is a pretty good topic to focus on for a feminist show set in the '60s, I'm still not completely convinced that this scene was necessary to show Greg's insecurity. Rape in drama without a good reason is often a sign for lazy writing (unless it's a crime drama like The Wire or even The Sopranos), and even in a show as well-written as Mad Men, this scene was a big freaking red flag for me (especially when AV Club gave this episode a C+). If you're going to gross me out with an act as grotesque as rape, you better give a damn good reason. And if this was a crime drama, the rapist is usually dead a few episodes later or even in the same episode to at least let the audience know that justice was served in some form, even though a quick death is too good for a rapist.

That being said, two things: 1) I guess it's not the first time sexual assault happens in this show since Don did molest Bobby in the same season and got away with it, but full-on rape just has a certain level of shock to it that leaves me gasping. 2) When I really think about it, a feminist show (especially one set in the '60s, when women hardly had the same level of equal treatment we'd get today) would eventually have to deal with the issue of rape in one way or another, so moving on.

I guess if there was a good reason for the rape scene, narratively speaking, it would be the thematic thread of a woman's power. Roger looks all the classier in this episode because 1) he's always been classy towards women, even if he's a billionaire Tony Stark playboy 😉 and 2) he's probably the only man not named Don Draper who recognized Peggy's brilliance and potential. Pete kinda recognized it over time, but he still has room to grow because he obviously doesn't respect his own wife's agency in choosing the kind of child they have. Female empowerment gone on side of the Campbell family. For Bert, it was his wife, Alice, that made the real decisions around the house as she influenced him to agree to the merger. And of course, Peggy got a real office - no explanations needed in terms of empowerment there. I find it interesting that Peggy's the only woman in the entire show that defies sexism in a more blatant way as she gains more and more power, equal to a man. I know somebody told me Peggy isn't a "independent woman fighting for feminism" like that, but Peggy's rise in power was definitely very positive for feminism, probably the most positive, in the entire show. That's unless she starts drinking like Rumsen.

Speaking of people whose name defies subtlety, this isn't exactly a very subtle episode, is it? Everyone's literally shouting expositions, "Jane makes me happy," "There's a difference between wanting and having," "I have been watching my life," etc. Yeah, this isn't a comic book monologue, guys. Don't get me started on the tarot cards... Clichéd much?

Not a good episode for various reasons, not just its exposition dump. I agree with the C+. Alright, maybe that was harsh, but this episode made me uncomfortable for obvious reasons, so there's not much love here especially with how much I like Joan.

Also, Betty, grow up. You manipulated Sarah Beth. You're almost as bad as Don when it comes to manipulating people; the only difference is that Don at least looks confident and cool while doing it.

Edited November 11, 2022 by MagnusHex

[Espy]

On 11/11/2022 at 7:15 PM, MagnusHex said:

I guess it's not the first time sexual assault happens in this show since Don did molest Bobby in the same season and got away with it, 

OMG I initially thought you meant Don molested his son Bobby, and I thought how could I not remember THAT? 

[MagnusHex]

4 hours ago, Espy said:

OMG I initially thought you meant Don molested his son Bobby, and I thought how could I not remember THAT? 

Yeah, that's a misspelling there on my part. lol See, this is what happens when you have two characters of similar spelling in the show, especially if they're of distinctly different age range and opposite gender...

[Constant Viewer]

I think Alice is Bert's sister. So that makes her name Alice Cooper!

[MagnusHex]

1 hour ago, Constant Viewer said:

I think Alice is Bert's sister. So that makes her name Alice Cooper!

Thanks for the correction. It's hard to tell sometimes with Mad Men.

[MagnusHex]

Mad Men, season 2, episode 13: Meditations in an Emergency

It's so like Betty to buy into Don's sappy romantic words. Here's a man who could lie so easily he instantly pulled out a convenient excuse for abandoning Campbell because he SUPPOSEDLY thought Campbell was ready. There might have been some truth to that excuse, but I have a hard time buying that Don likes, and more importantly, respects Campbell enough to have that kind of concern for him.

And of course, Pete ate it all up because of his daddy issues. His ego is still so fragile that he immediately returned to his one trophy of manhood - his rifle he exchanged his wedding gift for - when Peggy revealed to him his loss at a chance for happiness. Pete has grown, admittedly, but not by much. Same with Betty. But that makes sense, seeing as we're only in season 2.

I never liked Duck. I felt that he was rather forgettable and didn't stand out enough as a character for me to like him. I would even take Harry over Duck because at least Harry's flaws were interesting. Duck's one distinct trait was shared with Freddy Rumsen (and even arguably Don Draper and Roger Sterling): being an alcoholic, except that Freddy is at least loyal to both Don and the company while Duck went behind the company's back to pull a merger, albeit informing them after the fact. I think that was the first time Duck became a character I bothered to pay attention to, when he backstabbed SC. I know Bert and Roger were amicable towards the merger after Duck informs them, but I still feel like it was a backstab Duck did to boost his lukewarm career. Ironically, instead of a boost, both his career and character spiraled down further after this episode, after Don one-ups him with his "I don't have a contract" comeback. I have my issues with Don, but I respect his confidence and loyalty (to the company and his male friends anyway, even if he couldn't keep his pistol in his pants), neither of which Duck possesses.

But anyway, speaking of Don, I doubt this marriage will prosper much longer despite his latest attempt to repair it. I'll bet 50 that Don will cheat again.

Or maybe even Betty.

Edited November 14, 2022 by MagnusHex

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

Mad Men, season 2, episode 13: Meditations in an Emergency

It's so like Betty to buy into Don's sappy romantic words. Here's a man who could lie so easily he instantly pulled out a convenient excuse for abandoning Campbell because he SUPPOSEDLY thought Campbell was ready. There might have been some truth to that excuse, but I have a hard time buying that Don likes, and more importantly, respects Campbell enough to have that kind of concern for him.

I actually didn't think Betty did buy Don's sappy romantic words. I thought she just decided it was her best option, since she wasn't ready to face divorce.

11 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

I never liked Duck. I felt that he was rather forgettable and didn't stand out enough as a character for me to like him. I would even take Henry over Duck because at least Henry's flaws were interesting.

Wait, who's Henry?

[MagnusHex]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Wait, who's Henry?

lol Sorry, I meant Harry.

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I actually didn't think Betty did buy Don's sappy romantic words. I thought she just decided it was her best option, since she wasn't ready to face divorce.

I suppose that's true. Something to do with her rep as a divorced mum, if I recall? 

I would like to think that she's refraining from divorce out of her concern for her kids... but man, from what I've seen so far how she treats her children and what I heard down the line in future seasons, I doubt it.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

lol Sorry, I meant Harry.

You now, after I wrote that I later thought that must be who it was!

3 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

I suppose that's true. Something to do with her rep as a divorced mum, if I recall? 

I would like to think that she's refraining from divorce out of her concern for her kids... but man, from what I've seen so far how she treats her children and what I heard down the line in future seasons, I doubt it.

LOL! Yeah, I doubt the kids figured into it. But she probably doesn't want to be a single mother!

[MagnusHex]

Mad Men 3x9: Wee Small Hours

And I'm back to talk more about Mad Men after a few months with my viewing of season 3.

Oh boy. The frustration I felt this episode. If there's any episode that embodies the theme of "white straight male privilege" more than the others, it's this one. So much whining from Don and Betty's sides while 1) Sal was at best sexually harassed and at worse sexually assaulted before being fired, and 2) while one of the most significant tragedies involving the Civil Rights Movement was happening in the background, the Birmingham Church Bombing. Just whining about these white people problems of their sordid affairs and whatnot. "I don't care about the consequences, I want you. Doesn't that mean anything to you?" And more infuriatingly, "You people." Jesus Christ, Don.

And Betty - dear lord, Betty - she was no better, especially when she splashed Carla with cold water when she said "MAYBE THIS MURDER OF KIDS WILL SHOW THAT YOUR LITTLE MOVEMENT WAS A BAD IDEA." THAT was your takeaway, Betts?! REALLY? Just one of many countless scenes to show how sheltered Betty Draper is in her little ignorant bubble.

For what it's worth in regards to Don, I read a interesting interpretation that, for the "You people" quote at least, Don's remark might not have been as negative as I might have thought, or at least not negative in that kind of way. He's been fine interacting with both black people and homosexuals without much display of bigotry before, so it might not a prejudice issue when he said "You people," but more of a Madonna/Whore complex where Don thought Sal's the kind of person who sleeps around (remember the bellhop), so why not just suck it up with an important client? Don has certainly slept around with clients before for the sake of the job, so his stance was that everyone should bend over like him. Not exactly a more flattering interpretation either, but I'd have taken it if Don wasn't such a hypocrite, refusing to bend over for Hilton.

I still can't believe they unceremoniously wrote off Sal like that from the show (I read that he's never coming back), even if I kinda understand why. I like Sal's character, but his arc was indeed at a bit of a stalemate. The '60s were never going to be accepting of a homosexual man. At least if it's a black character, there's some leeway for conflict to be mined with the Civil Rights Movement around the corner, but gay progression is just never going to see the light of day for another few decades, so there's nowhere for Mad Men to go forward with his character, or at least not a lot of room to maneuver.

And alright, maybe I was too harsh on Betty too. I mean, it's the '60s! "tHiNgS wErE dIfFeReNt BaCk ThEn." I get the idea of what's being portrayed, much like I get the idea why Joan was treated like that by Dr. Rape, but STILL, UGH. So infuriating. It's like watching a bunch of spoiled children in Jersey Shore, but with the exception of the writers' being self-aware how spoiled the characters are.

And we haven't even got to MLK's assassination yet, if this show even went there in the later seasons (please don't spoil it for me!). I already know JFK's assassination is gonna be a pretty big deal on the show, but will MLK's assassination happen in the background like most of these civil rights-related tragedies so far? While the white cast worry about something petty maybe, like Roger marrying a young wife. Sigh, you people. 🤣

I'm kinda glad Hollis pointed that out a few episodes ago, that there were bigger concerns in real life at the time than whether to watch TV. At least someone pointed out how ridiculously out of touch the people he worked for were.

But despite my lengthy tirade, I like this episode and do think this is one of the best ones I've seen so far, specifically because of all the infuriating things the characters did that I've complained about above. The script is tight and is thematically consistent. Dr. King might've had a dream, an ideal like the players in this episode, but as shown by the Birmingham bombing, achieving said dream and expectations in reality isn't so easy, if possible. It's the kind of episode you could write a college essay about, one that moved a lot of sub-plots along nicely while also resolving them through the same thematic thread of expectations meeting reality. That's brilliant writing.

10/10

It provokes my emotions in all kinds of negative ways, and at the same time, in all the right ways.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

For what it's worth in regards to Don, I read a interesting interpretation that, for the "You people" quote at least, Don's remark might not have been as negative as I might have thought, or at least not negative in that kind of way. He's been fine interacting with both black people and homosexuals without much display of bigotry before, so it might not a prejudice issue when he said "You people," but more of a Madonna/Whore complex where Don thought Sal's the kind of person who sleeps around (remember the bellhop), so why not just suck it up with an important client? Don has certainly slept around with clients before for the sake of the job, so his stance was that everyone should bend over like him. Not exactly a more flattering interpretation either, but I'd have taken it if Don wasn't such a hypocrite, refusing to bend over for Hilton.

I gotta say, a lot of interpretations like that (they did the same thing for Joan's remark about Paul being "open-minded" to his girlfriend) are just an attempt to exempt characters they think are cool from the default positions they'd have. (I heard someone try to argue that about Don's joke about Jews in the pilot as well.)

I think Don obviously just really means gay people. As he explains it to Sal, since he knows that Sal is gay, he can't understand him not just sleeping with the important client--and certainly can't believe he didn't do anything to provoke the attention. That's the analogy he makes with "it depends on what I know about the girl" - meaning that if it was a girl he thought was "easy" she, like Sal, would not have the right to say no or claim they didn't lead the person on. 

Don's not an asshole to any particular minority, but that doesn't mean he's so enlightened about them--this is one of the only times he's challenged about it, after all. 

Likewise, Betty's "maybe it's not the right time" is so something some white lady is saying about some group right now, I'm sure! On some level I have to respect that the show doesn't pretend white people working on a firm on Madison Avenue would be that focused on it. Even things that do seem like a huge deal to them don't stop them from being focused on their own lives, since that's just what happens with everybody. As MW I think said, if you're getting divorced and JFK is assassinated, your divorce is still the biggest thing happening in your life.

 

[MagnusHex]

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I gotta say, a lot of interpretations like that (they did the same thing for Joan's remark about Paul being "open-minded" to his girlfriend) are just an attempt to exempt characters they think are cool from the default positions they'd have. (I heard someone try to argue that about Don's joke about Jews in the pilot as well.)

I think Don obviously just really means gay people. As he explains it to Sal, since he knows that Sal is gay, he can't understand him not just sleeping with the important client--and certainly can't believe he didn't do anything to provoke the attention. That's the analogy he makes with "it depends on what I know about the girl" - meaning that if it was a girl he thought was "easy" she, like Sal, would not have the right to say no or claim they didn't lead the person on. 

Don's not an asshole to any particular minority, but that doesn't mean he's so enlightened about them--this is one of the only times he's challenged about it, after all. 

Yeah, I was giving a generous interpretation to Don since I wasn't sure if I was right about his prejudices, but thanks for the confirmation. 😂 One of my thoughts was that Don thought all gay men sleep around. Another interpretation I read that was just as appalling: the "depending on the woman" remark meant that any woman that doesn't appeal to Don's sense of value like Peggy does are worthless commodities whose only value is their sexuality, the same way Don sees Sal, I'm guessing.

 

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Likewise, Betty's "maybe it's not the right time" is so something some white lady is saying about some group right now, I'm sure! On some level I have to respect that the show doesn't pretend white people working on a firm on Madison Avenue would be that focused on it. Even things that do seem like a huge deal to them don't stop them from being focused on their own lives, since that's just what happens with everybody. As MW I think said, if you're getting divorced and JFK is assassinated, your divorce is still the biggest thing happening in your life.

Hah, yeah. I was trying not to hammer home the point too much, but the show might as well be titled White People Problems, or something equivalent to HBO's The White Lotus.

[sistermagpie]

17 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

Yeah, I was giving a generous interpretation to Don since I wasn't sure if I was right about his prejudices, but thanks for the confirmation. 😂 One of my thoughts was that Don thought all gay men sleep around. Another interpretation I read that was just as appalling: the "depending on the woman" remark meant that any woman that doesn't appeal to Don's sense of value like Peggy does are worthless commodities whose only value is their sexuality, the same way Don sees Sal, I'm guessing.

Yeah, I wonder about that too. I figure Don wouldn't be aware enough of stereotypes about gay men to think they just sleep around--but then, he himself sleeps around, and he'd definitely sleep with a client if necessary (see: Bobbi Barrett). So I figure Don just doesn't understand not doing that if you're going to be strange enough to do it to begin with.

Without giving spoilers, there's another moment in the show where Don faces a situation like this with a woman and his response is to point out that she's married--like I think Don does have the standard view of good girls/bad girls and married women being off-limits because they belong to someone else.

Don knows Peggy's had sex, but it's true, I still can't imagine him expecting her to sleep with a client. So it's maybe not as clear cut as virgin/non-virgin.

 

[MagnusHex]

Mad Men 3x12: The Grown-Ups

So it's finally come to this moment in history. I teared up more than I had expected going into the episode.

I'm not an American, but I've probably looked into the JFK assassination more than your average Singaporean. There was just something about this particular assassination (out of possibly countless attempts on previous presidents and especially kings) that just gripped my attention. I think one reason is because it was a horrific event that happened relatively not long ago in contemporary times (as opposed to the medieval age, for example). Another reason was that the assassination felt like it marked the period of time of innocence lost in '60s America.

Seen through the lenses of Mad Men, Birmingham was merely at the back of the mind of them white folks that something was wrong with the country, but Kennedy felt like a wake-up call. For all his promises regarding civil rights and the Vietnam War, he was publicly executed in such a brutal fashion as if the Devil himself had a hand to send some kind of message against his would-be promises for peace. The hope for America was gone, snuffed out by an assassin (or multiple, depending on whom you ask). Vietnam went to Hell shortly after because of LBJ while Malcolm X and MLK would soon follow in Kennedy's footsteps. It's like someone opened a gateway to Hell in that humid November of '63. The snowball of shitstorm had just rolled downhill that November, and it was not stopping any time soon.

On a similar note, after the peacetime '90s, 9/11 happened and there was that air of uncertainty once more. "What is going on?!", as Betty asked appropriately after a second public execution happened so rapidly in the form of Oswald's death. In both national tragedies, JFK and 9/11, I've heard accounts of people not being able to stop watching the news as portrayed here in this episode of Mad Men and, for 9/11's case, Osama bin Laden Has Farty Pants in South Park, when Sharon Marsh found herself similarly glued to the screen. The big question hanging over people's head: "How do you move on from something like this?" Don Draper seemed to handle it well... at first. "There will be another president," he said. "Everything will be alright," he said placating Betty at Margaret's wedding reception, trying to move on and pretend that everything could just return to normal. "It could've been an awful night," Roger said with a smile, toasting everyone.

Little needs to be said about how the '60s and its societal changes are relevant to the show's themes involving feminism and civil rights, but I find it appropriate that Don and Roger - both men whose marriages are failing, their patriarchal status about to crumble down the road - are trying to placate everyone, telling them to enjoy the party and that it will be alright. In light of the assassination, it feels like the state of America was about to change and things were most certainly not going to be alright, but Don and Roger, much like most of the white men in this show, didn't want things to change because white men were having such a great time in the '60s. Pete probably feels the same too, but he, along with Trudy, at least has the sense to acknowledge that Kennedy was going to bring about a positive change in the country, a change that would no longer happen. I love that both Pete and Trudy, the couple with the healthiest marriage by comparison (largely due to their honesty with each other), were the only ones who called out the nonsensical nature of having a party when the president had just been murdered in cold blood. They had the most level-headed remarks in an episode where everyone's stunned silent, with Pete even calling out the ridiculous way Oswald's processing was handled just seconds before his assassination was broadcast on-air. "Why even have a trial? Just throw him over to the mob."

Lastly, to cap off what was already a wonderfully emotional episode, the end credits played with Skeeter Davis' "End of the World", probably my favorite melancholic song to listen to whenever I feel down. It's too on-the-nose for a show like Mad Men, which long time fans might consider as a flaw, but in spite of that, I still like how it encapsulates the theme of the episode, how everyone's smiling and partying in the face of such a tragic event. My tears came rushing out once more the second I heard the melody played. 

Why does the sun go on shining?
Why does the sea rush to shore?
Don't they know it's the end of the world?
'Cause you don't love me any more

Hell, it might as well have been Carla's song for much of Mad Men, especially after Birmingham.

9/10

Edited January 29, 2023 by MagnusHex

[qtpye]

10 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

Mad Men 3x12: The Grown-Ups

So it's finally come to this moment in history. I teared up more than I had expected going into the episode.

I'm not an American, but I've probably looked into the JFK assassination more than your average Singaporean. There was just something about this particular assassination (out of possibly countless attempts on previous presidents and especially kings) that just gripped my attention. I think one reason is because it was a horrific event that happened relatively not long ago in contemporary times (as opposed to the medieval age, for example). Another reason was that the assassination felt like it marked the period of time of innocence lost in '60s America.

Seen through the lenses of Mad Men, Birmingham was merely at the back of the mind of them white folks that something was wrong with the country, but Kennedy felt like a wake-up call. For all his promises regarding civil rights and the Vietnam War, he was publicly executed in such a brutal fashion as if the Devil himself had a hand to send some kind of message against his would-be promises for peace. The hope for America was gone, snuffed out by an assassin (or multiple, depending on whom you ask). Vietnam went to Hell shortly after because of LBJ while Malcolm X and MLK would soon follow in Kennedy's footsteps. It's like someone opened a gateway to Hell in that humid November of '63. The snowball of shitstorm had just rolled downhill that November, and it was not stopping any time soon.

On a similar note, after the peacetime '90s, 9/11 happened and there was that air of uncertainty once more. "What is going on?!", as Betty asked appropriately after a second public execution happened so rapidly in the form of Oswald's death. In both national tragedies, JFK and 9/11, I've heard accounts of people not being able to stop watching the news as portrayed here in this episode of Mad Men and, for 9/11's case, Osama bin Laden Has Farty Pants in South Park, when Sharon Marsh found herself similarly glued to the screen. The big question hanging over people's head: "How do you move on from something like this?" Don Draper seemed to handle it well... at first. "There will be another president," he said. "Everything will be alright," he said placating Betty at Margaret's wedding reception, trying to move on and pretend that everything could just return to normal. "It could've been an awful night," Roger said with a smile, toasting everyone.

Little needs to be said about how the '60s and its societal changes are relevant to the show's themes involving feminism and civil rights, but I find it appropriate that Don and Roger - both men whose marriages are failing, their patriarchal status about to crumble down the road - are trying to placate everyone, telling them to enjoy the party and that it will be alright. In light of the assassination, it feels like the state of America was about to change and things were most certainly not going to be alright, but Don and Roger, much like most of the white men in this show, didn't want things to change because white men were having such a great time in the '60s. Pete probably feels the same too, but he, along with Trudy, at least has the sense to acknowledge that Kennedy was going to bring about a positive change in the country, a change that would no longer happen. I love that both Pete and Trudy, the couple with the healthiest marriage by comparison (largely due to their honesty with each other), were the only ones who called out the nonsensical nature of having a party when the president had just been murdered in cold blood. They had the most level-headed remarks in an episode where everyone's stunned silent, with Pete even calling out the ridiculous way Oswald's processing was handled just seconds before his assassination was broadcast on-air. "Why even have a trial? Just throw him over to the mob."

Lastly, to cap off what was already a wonderfully emotional episode, the end credits played with Skeeter Davis' "End of the World", probably my favorite melancholic song to listen to whenever I feel down. It's too on-the-nose for a show like Mad Men, which long time fans might consider as a flaw, but in spite of that, I still like how it encapsulates the theme of the episode, how everyone's smiling and partying in the face of such a tragic event. My tears came rushing out once more the second I heard the melody played. 

Why does the sun go on shining?
Why does the sea rush to shore?
Don't they know it's the end of the world?
'Cause you don't love me any more

Hell, it might as well have been Carla's song for much of Mad Men, especially after Birmingham.

9/10

@MagnusHex, I really have been enjoying your relatively new take on this show. 

I love the Mad Men fan community because, though small, it is wonderful to have such intelligent and interesting discussions.

I think Mad Men was one of those watershed shows that said, Yes, television is not just a boob tube but can also be made for some serious discussion about our place in the world.

Anyway, I enjoy your posts.