Mad Men - General Discussion

Lonesome Rhodes · February 2, 2021

Megan was perhaps the most complicated/interesting character of the series. She had moments of genius-level insight and other moments of idiocy. She was intuitively excellent as Don's secretary. She was a mess as a struggling actor. There was a major dichotomy in her genuine love and admiration for Don and her resentment of him.

Maybe she was just a tad "Mad" herself. After all, she was Marie's daughter and her Dad was not exactly stable. They were French Canadian, as well, with a healthy dose of cultural antipathy towards America's "Mad" dash for riches.

I really liked her at first. But, from the moment she expressed a desire/need to make a fame name of her own, she was hopelessly torn. She was a veritable greyhound chasing the rabbit. Such ambition, in my experience, ruins otherwise great folks. All the million-dollar checks in the world would not fill the hole inside Megan.

sistermagpie · February 2, 2021

1 minute ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Megan was perhaps the most complicated/interesting character of the series. She had moments of genius-level insight and other moments of idiocy. She was intuitively excellent as Don's secretary. She was a mess as a struggling actor. There was a major dichotomy in her genuine love and admiration for Don and her resentment of him.

I didn't really find her that complicated or interesting as a person. There were few characters I enjoyed watching less on screen than Megan. Compared to the other characters she often didn't seem like a believable person to me, which might have partly been the performance. But I could just never care about her as a human being or buy into anything she allegedly wanted. It's only when stepping back and looking at her as a piece in the puzzle that she becomes really interesting to me. I like talking about her as a whole, but there's no moments in the show where she affected me as a person. I like talking about her more than watching her onscreen, basically.

Umbelina · February 2, 2021

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I didn't really find her that complicated or interesting as a person. There were few characters I enjoyed watching less on screen than Megan. Compared to the other characters she often didn't seem like a believable person to me, which might have partly been the performance. But I could just never care about her as a human being or buy into anything she allegedly wanted. It's only when stepping back and looking at her as a piece in the puzzle that she becomes really interesting to me. I like talking about her as a whole, but there's no moments in the show where she affected me as a person. I like talking about her more than watching her onscreen, basically.

I think part of that was Weiner's obsession with her looks. More and more I think that guy is very strange, and let his sexual fantasies play out with life sized Barbie dolls. (His actors and actresses.)

He has everyone commenting on how beautiful she is constantly (and even MORE in commentaries.) So, he gave Jessica something almost impossible to do. She had to be the most beautiful woman in the world, and brilliant as a instant Ad genius as well as the perfect Maria in Sound of Music. She also had to snare the "most eligible guy" in under a week.

So, he did a few things, he made Betty (who is IMO, stunningly gorgeous) fat and insecure. He made sure Roger married the other beautiful woman on screen, and we also had a bunch of beyond average looking "secretaries" hired for the who Pond's skin cream scene. He dressed Faye in the most unflattering clothing possible while still keeping her professional looking, boxy suits, etc. He also made sure that actress cut off her long luxurious blond hair (really long, past her waist.) He inexplicably got rid of the beautiful, even without makeup teacher, someone Don was now completely free to date or marry, since Betty dumped him.

So he crammed Megan down everyone's throat, while rhapsodizing how incredibly beautiful she was for a while, then decided to pull the rug out from under that most desirable woman by making her an insecure actress, at the whim of people like HIM.

It's honestly pretty creepy, as are several of the other things he did on the show, especially the whole scarf wearing brunette crap.

qtpye · February 2, 2021

58 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think part of that was Weiner's obsession with her looks. More and more I think that guy is very strange, and let his sexual fantasies play out with life sized Barbie dolls. (His actors and actresses.)

He has everyone commenting on how beautiful she is constantly (and even MORE in commentaries.) So, he gave Jessica something almost impossible to do. She had to be the most beautiful woman in the world, and brilliant as a instant Ad genius as well as the perfect Maria in Sound of Music. She also had to snare the "most eligible guy" in under a week.

So, he did a few things, he made Betty (who is IMO, stunningly gorgeous) fat and insecure. He made sure Roger married the other beautiful woman on screen, and we also had a bunch of beyond average looking "secretaries" hired for the who Pond's skin cream scene. He dressed Faye in the most unflattering clothing possible while still keeping her professional looking, boxy suits, etc. He also made sure that actress cut off her long luxurious blond hair (really long, past her waist.) He inexplicably got rid of the beautiful, even without makeup teacher, someone Don was now completely free to date or marry, since Betty dumped him.

So he crammed Megan down everyone's throat, while rhapsodizing how incredibly beautiful she was for a while, then decided to pull the rug out from under that most desirable woman by making her an insecure actress, at the whim of people like HIM.

It's honestly pretty creepy, as are several of the other things he did on the show, especially the whole scarf wearing brunette crap.

I remember when they thought that that Megan's song and dance routine would take off and become a hit. I think they were trying to create a viral moment on the show.

It is now looked upon as a giant moment of cringe. I actually appreciate the realism. Megan is beautiful but not a natural performer...In shows/movies people get up to preform and it is always brilliant (unless they are Michael Scott), so I appreciate that Megan's performance was kind of a disaster.

Umbelina · February 2, 2021

15 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I remember when they thought that that Megan's song and dance routine would take off and become a hit. I think they were trying to create a viral moment on the show.

It is now looked upon as a giant moment of cringe. I actually appreciate the realism. Megan is beautiful but not a natural performer...In shows/movies people get up to preform and it is always brilliant (unless they are Michael Scott), so I appreciate that Megan's performance was kind of a disaster.

It was a cringe for viewers because Don hated it. Had Don be as into it as every other man at the party? I wonder if viewers would have reacted differently.

ETA

Don hating it lead to another incredibly cringe worthy scene. Megan cleaning in her underwear, so we could have "pretend" forced sex after fighting.

Ugh

Edited February 2, 2021 by Umbelina

Ohiopirate02 · February 2, 2021

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It was a cringe for viewers because Don hated it. Had Don be as into it as every other man at the party? I wonder if viewers would have reacted differently.

I remember when that episode first aired that many men loved it. It was a watercooler moment. I don't remember it being a cringe for viewers. I guess it depends upon who you asked back then.

Lonesome Rhodes · February 2, 2021

I saw where Jessica says the dance was the very first scene in which she was actually taped with any other of the cast present. How do you do?! I found it to be intentionally awkward. I still can scarcely believe this is the same actor who was significant to SEAL Team.

I was, and remain, mystified at the ending of the affair with the teacher. Yes, she was forever looking for reasons to cut him off because she was not stupid and well understood the odds of a long term relationship were super low. But, the last thing I remember was Dopn going waaaaaay out of his way to help her troublesome brother. What did Don do wrong?!

I really liked her, as opposed to Megan and several others (Hello, Peggy). I'd very much appreciate any insights as to why she was written out.

Ohiopirate02 · February 2, 2021

37 minutes ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

I saw where Jessica says the dance was the very first scene in which she was actually taped with any other of the cast present. How do you do?! I found it to be intentionally awkward. I still can scarcely believe this is the same actor who was significant to SEAL Team.

I was, and remain, mystified at the ending of the affair with the teacher. Yes, she was forever looking for reasons to cut him off because she was not stupid and well understood the odds of a long term relationship were super low. But, the last thing I remember was Dopn going waaaaaay out of his way to help her troublesome brother. What did Don do wrong?!

I really liked her, as opposed to Megan and several others (Hello, Peggy). I'd very much appreciate any insights as to why she was written out.

Suzanne, the teacher, was risking her career carrying on with Don. She was no longer Sally's teacher, but if word got out that a single teacher was caught after hours with one of the student's married father, her career would be toast. I assume she waited for Don 20 minutes tops before sneaking away. Don was just supposed to run into the house and get something (I can't remember if it was a change of clothes, or money) when Betty confronted him about his lies. Suzanne could probably figure out that Betty found out about Don, she would have had no idea if it included her. I don't blame her for leaving and never contacting Don again. She probably spent the next few weeks worrying that her world was going to come crashing down. She probably also started to look for a new job away from the Drapers.

sistermagpie · February 2, 2021

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

He has everyone commenting on how beautiful she is constantly (and even MORE in commentaries.) So, he gave Jessica something almost impossible to do. She had to be the most beautiful woman in the world, and brilliant as a instant Ad genius as well as the perfect Maria in Sound of Music. She also had to snare the "most eligible guy" in under a week.

Yeah, and on one hand I understand why it works for the story. Like it says in that video, Betty is Grace Kelly perfect and Megan is the European late 60s beauty. But for me there's no contest. Not that I think Jessica Pare is unattractive--she's a beautiful woman. But she doesn't to me come across as perfectly pretty the way Betty does. Maybe in part because of the way she moves. Betty always has this little doll quality to all her movements that go with her looks.

Megan's brunette, she's got the "flaw" of her teeth that could make her just look more interesting. But she often seems kind of clunky physically and worse, when she starts dressing like a starlet she looks far less attractive to me because she's so heavily done up, with the hair and all. But still yeah, Don marries in each case the "look" of the moment and the woman herself is an actual person. Only Betty is a big weirdo with a dark side while Megan honestly seems in some ways to be exactly what she is--a young woman who's sometimes insecure, likes kids and dreams of being a movie star. I get what Don originally saw in Betty. I don't get why he ever thought he'd have enough in common with Megan to sustain a marriage.

6 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I remember when that episode first aired that many men loved it. It was a watercooler moment. I don't remember it being a cringe for viewers. I guess it depends upon who you asked back then.

I didn't find it cringy, exactly, but it did seem really artificial to me, like the show was trying to create that water cooler moment. And it worked to an extent, but not the same way more organic moments on the show did. A lot of the reviewers (often male) who thought it was fantastic seemed to fool themselves just like Don originally did, projecting all sorts of qualities onto Megan through the scene when she was just being pretty and young and enthusiastic.

1 hour ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

I was, and remain, mystified at the ending of the affair with the teacher. Yes, she was forever looking for reasons to cut him off because she was not stupid and well understood the odds of a long term relationship were super low. But, the last thing I remember was Dopn going waaaaaay out of his way to help her troublesome brother. What did Don do wrong?!

Why would there be any question about Don doing wrong to end it? Don dumped her when the fantasy ended and Betty found out about his past. If Suzanne was really looking for some reason to cut him off she would have used the ones right in front of her and not gotten together with him, not called him drunk to gush over their parent-teacher meeting. She was written out because Don moved on from that affair just like all the others.

That said, she's one of my least favorite of his mistresses. I was pleasantly surprised on rewatch to see how few episodes she's actually in. Listening to her to present herself as some wonderfully sensitive child whisperer while screwing the father of a student who loved her (and so threatening the stability of her home life), openly talking about affairs in front of kids because she just assumes it'll go over their innocent widdle heads because they're too pure to understand racism or infidelity. And Don too, playing out his own childhood wish for a sweet teacher.

50 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I don't blame her for leaving and never contacting Don again. She probably spent the next few weeks worrying that her world was going to come crashing down. She probably also started to look for a new job away from the Drapers.

She did contact Don again. I can't remember the timetable, but at some point she came and sat with him on the train and the last time they spoke they were on the phone. She asked Don if she should be worried about her job and he said no. She asked how he was and he told her how special she was for thinking about him. I think he made some noise about calling her at some point and she obviously knew that wasn't going to happen even if he didn't.

I wasn't bothered by her having an affair with him while being a teacher at Sally and Bobby's school, but I couldn't stand her doing that while also obviously considering herself the best adult child-carer ever.

qtpye · February 3, 2021

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, and on one hand I understand why it works for the story. Like it says in that video, Betty is Grace Kelly perfect and Megan is the European late 60s beauty. But for me there's no contest. Not that I think Jessica Pare is unattractive--she's a beautiful woman. But she doesn't to me come across as perfectly pretty the way Betty does. Maybe in part because of the way she moves. Betty always has this little doll quality to all her movements that go with her looks.

Megan's brunette, she's got the "flaw" of her teeth that could make her just look more interesting. But she often seems kind of clunky physically and worse, when she starts dressing like a starlet she looks far less attractive to me because she's so heavily done up, with the hair and all. But still yeah, Don marries in each case the "look" of the moment and the woman herself is an actual person. Only Betty is a big weirdo with a dark side while Megan honestly seems in some ways to be exactly what she is--a young woman who's sometimes insecure, likes kids and dreams of being a movie star. I get what Don originally saw in Betty. I don't get why he ever thought he'd have enough in common with Megan to sustain a marriage.

I didn't find it cringy, exactly, but it did seem really artificial to me, like the show was trying to create that water cooler moment. And it worked to an extent, but not the same way more organic moments on the show did. A lot of the reviewers (often male) who thought it was fantastic seemed to fool themselves just like Don originally did, projecting all sorts of qualities onto Megan through the scene when she was just being pretty and young and enthusiastic.

Why would there be any question about Don doing wrong to end it? Don dumped her when the fantasy ended and Betty found out about his past. If Suzanne was really looking for some reason to cut him off she would have used the ones right in front of her and not gotten together with him, not called him drunk to gush over their parent-teacher meeting. She was written out because Don moved on from that affair just like all the others.

That said, she's one of my least favorite of his mistresses. I was pleasantly surprised on rewatch to see how few episodes she's actually in. Listening to her to present herself as some wonderfully sensitive child whisperer while screwing the father of a student who loved her (and so threatening the stability of her home life), openly talking about affairs in front of kids because she just assumes it'll go over their innocent widdle heads because they're too pure to understand racism or infidelity. And Don too, playing out his own childhood wish for a sweet teacher.

She did contact Don again. I can't remember the timetable, but at some point she came and sat with him on the train and the last time they spoke they were on the phone. She asked Don if she should be worried about her job and he said no. She asked how he was and he told her how special she was for thinking about him. I think he made some noise about calling her at some point and she obviously knew that wasn't going to happen even if he didn't.

I wasn't bothered by her having an affair with him while being a teacher at Sally and Bobby's school, but I couldn't stand her doing that while also obviously considering herself the best adult child-carer ever.

Yeah, Betty has this petite and pretty vibe to her.

Megan, while beautiful, was a little awkward in her movements. I remember when Don was watching the film of her with no sound. I thought she looked so goofy but apparently the showrunners thought Don (and the audience) would see in that scene what a natural "star" she was...not what I saw, at all.

I actually thought Megan's mother represented the amazingly sophisticated and elegant French woman much better than Megan ever did.

Edited February 3, 2021 by qtpye

Umbelina · February 3, 2021

11 hours ago, qtpye said:

Yeah, Betty has this petite and pretty vibe to her.

Megan, while beautiful, was a little awkward in her movements. I remember when Don was watching the film of her with no sound. I thought she looked so goofy but apparently the showrunners thought Don (and the audience) would see in that scene what a natural "star" she was...not what I saw, at all.

I actually thought Megan's mother represented the amazingly sophisticated and elegant French woman much better than Megan ever did.

Very well said, and I agree. I do think January is more in the "beautiful" category than "pretty" though.

Also, January is only 3 years older than Jessica. It showed. Yes, they made Betty "fat" and frumpy, but sorry, there is no way in hell Megan actually looked like the "younger" generation.

Megan did have this delightfully awkward physicality though, which, instead of using as something attractive and endearing, Weiner tried to cover up. He was forcing the actress into a role that it would have taken a complete Goddess to pull off. The youngest, freshest, most beautiful, intelligent, caring female anyone at SCDP had ever met.

Just ... no. Honestly if she tripped and did a pratfall and that was what really captured Don's heart, I think I would have "bought" her more as a character.

I always liked the actress though, and I think she did the absolute best she could (and sometimes it was really outstanding) with the nonsense she was given to play. Perfect spilled milkshake scene for example, the one on one with Betty, the humiliation of having to beg Don for an acting job, the scene in the restaurant bathroom and table where she saved the day, "I've already lost one kid today" and others were done well. Frankly, even the scene where Harry was pressuring her into sex was well done.

It just didn't work as a whole, and not as an anchoring story either.

17 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, and on one hand I understand why it works for the story. Like it says in that video, Betty is Grace Kelly perfect and Megan is the European late 60s beauty. But for me there's no contest. Not that I think Jessica Pare is unattractive--she's a beautiful woman. But she doesn't to me come across as perfectly pretty the way Betty does. Maybe in part because of the way she moves. Betty always has this little doll quality to all her movements that go with her looks.

Megan's brunette, she's got the "flaw" of her teeth that could make her just look more interesting. But she often seems kind of clunky physically and worse, when she starts dressing like a starlet she looks far less attractive to me because she's so heavily done up, with the hair and all. But still yeah, Don marries in each case the "look" of the moment and the woman herself is an actual person. Only Betty is a big weirdo with a dark side while Megan honestly seems in some ways to be exactly what she is--a young woman who's sometimes insecure, likes kids and dreams of being a movie star. I get what Don originally saw in Betty. I don't get why he ever thought he'd have enough in common with Megan to sustain a marriage.

I didn't find it cringy, exactly, but it did seem really artificial to me, like the show was trying to create that water cooler moment. And it worked to an extent, but not the same way more organic moments on the show did. A lot of the reviewers (often male) who thought it was fantastic seemed to fool themselves just like Don originally did, projecting all sorts of qualities onto Megan through the scene when she was just being pretty and young and enthusiastic.

Why would there be any question about Don doing wrong to end it? Don dumped her when the fantasy ended and Betty found out about his past. If Suzanne was really looking for some reason to cut him off she would have used the ones right in front of her and not gotten together with him, not called him drunk to gush over their parent-teacher meeting. She was written out because Don moved on from that affair just like all the others.

That said, she's one of my least favorite of his mistresses. I was pleasantly surprised on rewatch to see how few episodes she's actually in. Listening to her to present herself as some wonderfully sensitive child whisperer while screwing the father of a student who loved her (and so threatening the stability of her home life), openly talking about affairs in front of kids because she just assumes it'll go over their innocent widdle heads because they're too pure to understand racism or infidelity. And Don too, playing out his own childhood wish for a sweet teacher.

She did contact Don again. I can't remember the timetable, but at some point she came and sat with him on the train and the last time they spoke they were on the phone. She asked Don if she should be worried about her job and he said no. She asked how he was and he told her how special she was for thinking about him. I think he made some noise about calling her at some point and she obviously knew that wasn't going to happen even if he didn't.

I wasn't bothered by her having an affair with him while being a teacher at Sally and Bobby's school, but I couldn't stand her doing that while also obviously considering herself the best adult child-carer ever.

Interesting.

I think Betty moves easily into the classically "beautiful" or at least "stunning" category, not just "pretty" though.

As far as Megan though? As I said above, Weiner was obsessed with Jessica, to a creepy degree OBSESSED with her. He built her up to be everything desirable (smart, kind, beautiful, understanding, young, fresh, great with kids, a whiz at advertising, an organized and conscientious secretary, interested and appreciative of Don's work, well liked by all) just to then completely tear her down to an insecure mess. Suddenly they are having "angry" sex, suddenly Hollywood types (like him) are pressuring her into sex, suddenly she's so desperate she arranges a creepy and *shudder* threesome, suddenly she no longer wants to be a mother figure to his kids, even though it's once a week, with a sporadic visit every now and then, suddenly advertising is boring, suddenly Don's life's work no longer interests her.

She begins as a woman who can "have it all" and someone that all men desire, and by the end, Mathew has made her nothing. Sorry, but to me? It just fits with the other creepy and slimy feelings I got from the show in the later seasons. I honestly do feel Mathew Weiner was playing out his own sexual peccadillos for all to see, including the child rape of Don as a boy.

He skeeves me out.

18 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Suzanne, the teacher, was risking her career carrying on with Don. She was no longer Sally's teacher, but if word got out that a single teacher was caught after hours with one of the student's married father, her career would be toast. I assume she waited for Don 20 minutes tops before sneaking away. Don was just supposed to run into the house and get something (I can't remember if it was a change of clothes, or money) when Betty confronted him about his lies. Suzanne could probably figure out that Betty found out about Don, she would have had no idea if it included her. I don't blame her for leaving and never contacting Don again. She probably spent the next few weeks worrying that her world was going to come crashing down. She probably also started to look for a new job away from the Drapers.

She didn't NEED that job though, if Don loved her half as much as he did for months before he dropped her, he could easily support her, and frankly, would have wanted her to live with him. If she wanted to continue to teach? Simply resign there, go to NYC and join Don, and get a different teaching job there.

No one in NYC would know or care who she was sleeping with.

I mean, I get what all of you are saying, but Don was different with Suzanne. For him to completely and inexplicable drop her at that point never made sense to me. He is lonely for months after, takes up with prostitutes after that. Meanwhile, this woman who made him feel whole, and whom he adored, and he could now have at any time without issues? He never sees her again? It was clunky. I mean take one minute of show time and give me a reason. For example, let's say when he looks at Suzanne suddenly an angry Betty morphs into her, then a flash of the box, then a crying kid "why Daddy?"

The reality was they were clearing the decks for Don to be single for real, and eventually marry wonder woman Megan, as Faye predicted, for that all to fall apart. Which is fine, but I kept thinking all along...why doesn't he just call Suzanne? Why be miserable and lonely and with hookers and drunk ALL the time? It was forced.

txhorns79 · February 3, 2021

17 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't get why he ever thought he'd have enough in common with Megan to sustain a marriage.

I did not get the impression Don looked at marrying Megan in this those terms. I thought he looked at the situation like Megan was good with the kids (as opposed to Faye who barely seemed able to interact with Sally), she didn't have a lot of baggage and he could kind of mold her into the wife he wanted. I always thought things started falling apart for them when Megan started asserting herself and moving away from the image Don had for her (i.e. the husband/wife advertising team).

18 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But she often seems kind of clunky physically and worse, when she starts dressing like a starlet she looks far less attractive to me because she's so heavily done up, with the hair and all.

I did not think Megan looked great when she was wearing one of those done up wigs and some of the uglier late 60s gowns. However, there were times when she just was wearing extensions that gave her a nice looking Ali McGraw-style look that was very flattering.

Ohiopirate02 · February 3, 2021

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She didn't NEED that job though, if Don loved her half as much as he did for months before he dropped her, he could easily support her, and frankly, would have wanted her to live with him. If she wanted to continue to teach? Simply resign there, go to NYC and join Don, and get a different teaching job there.

No one in NYC would know or care who she was sleeping with.

I mean, I get what all of you are saying, but Don was different with Suzanne. For him to completely and inexplicable drop her at that point never made sense to me. He is lonely for months after, takes up with prostitutes after that. Meanwhile, this woman who made him feel whole, and whom he adored, and he could now have at any time without issues? He never sees her again? It was clunky. I mean take one minute of show time and give me a reason. For example, let's say when he looks at Suzanne suddenly an angry Betty morphs into her, then a flash of the box, then a crying kid "why Daddy?"

The reality was they were clearing the decks for Don to be single for real, and eventually marry wonder woman Megan, as Faye predicted, for that all to fall apart. Which is fine, but I kept thinking all along...why doesn't he just call Suzanne? Why be miserable and lonely and with hookers and drunk ALL the time? It was forced.

But is that what Suzanne wanted? We don't know if Don ever reached out to Suzanne after Betty asked for a divorce. He may have, and she shot him down. Or, Suzanne was fulfilling a need for Don when he was unhappily married to Betty and he was still carrying around the whole Dick Whitman secret, but now that he is single he doesn't need her. Don also had a huge work upheaval between seasons 3 and 4. I do think he plunged headlong into work to distract himself from his personal life.

In reality though, Suzanne probably disappeared because of behind-the-scenes casting issues or Matt Weiner lost interest in her character.

Umbelina · February 3, 2021

47 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I did not get the impression Don looked at marrying Megan in this those terms. I thought he looked at the situation like Megan was good with the kids (as opposed to Faye who barely seemed able to interact with Sally), she didn't have a lot of baggage and he could kind of mold her into the wife he wanted. I always thought things started falling apart for them when Megan started asserting herself and moving away from the image Don had for her (i.e. the husband/wife advertising team).

I did not think Megan looked great when she was wearing one of those done up wigs and some of the uglier late 60s gowns. However, there were times when she just was wearing extensions that gave her a nice looking Ali McGraw-style look that was very flattering.

Yeah, Megan was just a convenience to Don, she ticked all his boxes, and just as Faye said (and I completely agree with) divorced men like Don remarry within a year, two at most. They want dinner on the table, available sex, child care, ego burnishing, the dry cleaning picked up, a hostess for entertaining, to return home to a clean house.

A "wife" to Don was really no more than a nanny/maid/cook/sex worker.

Also, again as Faye said, Don "only likes the beginning of things."

After the "beginning" the other person involved naturally quits living a life that only revolves around Don's needs, and starts to have needs and desires of her own. That spoils everything for Don.

GAWD, I just flashed on him murdering that former girlfriend in his fevered dream. Ugh. Another fantasy played out for Matt. That was the best Don could offer Megan, "I will not cheat on you like I cheated on Betty." That resolve lasted until the moment Megan thought just a bit about what SHE actually wanted from life, instead of what her husband wanted.

9 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

But is that what Suzanne wanted? We don't know if Don ever reached out to Suzanne after Betty asked for a divorce. He may have, and she shot him down. Or, Suzanne was fulfilling a need for Don when he was unhappily married to Betty and he was still carrying around the whole Dick Whitman secret, but now that he is single he doesn't need her. Don also had a huge work upheaval between seasons 3 and 4. I do think he plunged headlong into work to distract himself from his personal life.

In reality though, Suzanne probably disappeared because of behind-the-scenes casting issues or Matt Weiner lost interest in her character.

Who knows? Weiner didn't bother to let us know. She seemed pretty in love with Don, he won her over, he was adoring, appreciative, she was comfortable with him, obviously the sex was good too. Meanwhile, it was the same for him.

Then?

Nothing.

Just misery for Don. Don is a selfish guy, he would not have chosen misery when he had "happy" at his beck and call. If this was some kind of penance he was doing, which, OK, I could buy that, then why not show him thinking of her, denying himself that, and instead calling the hooker to smack him around? Ditto if she had dumped him, at least there would be a reason.

As I said, I don't care that he dropped her, I'd just have liked to see some kind of reason why played out on screen, and it wouldn't have taken much. As it was through, through most of the next season I mostly wondered why he didn't just call Suzanne.

qtpye · February 3, 2021

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Very well said, and I agree. I do think January is more in the "beautiful" category than "pretty" though.

Also, January is only 3 years older than Jessica. It showed. Yes, they made Betty "fat" and frumpy, but sorry, there is no way in hell Megan actually looked like the "younger" generation.

Megan did have this delightfully awkward physicality though, which, instead of using as something attractive and endearing, Weiner tried to cover up. He was forcing the actress into a role that it would have taken a complete Goddess to pull off. The youngest, freshest, most beautiful, intelligent, caring female anyone at SCDP had ever met.

Just ... no. Honestly if she tripped and did a pratfall and that was what really captured Don's heart, I think I would have "bought" her more as a character.

I always liked the actress though, and I think she did the absolute best she could (and sometimes it was really outstanding) with the nonsense she was given to play. Perfect spilled milkshake scene for example, the one on one with Betty, the humiliation of having to beg Don for an acting job, the scene in the restaurant bathroom and table where she saved the day, "I've already lost one kid today" and others were done well. Frankly, even the scene where Harry was pressuring her into sex was well done.

It just didn't work as a whole, and not as an anchoring story either.

Interesting.

I think Betty moves easily into the classically "beautiful" or at least "stunning" category, not just "pretty" though.

As far as Megan though? As I said above, Weiner was obsessed with Jessica, to a creepy degree OBSESSED with her. He built her up to be everything desirable (smart, kind, beautiful, understanding, young, fresh, great with kids, a whiz at advertising, an organized and conscientious secretary, interested and appreciative of Don's work, well liked by all) just to then completely tear her down to an insecure mess. Suddenly they are having "angry" sex, suddenly Hollywood types (like him) are pressuring her into sex, suddenly she's so desperate she arranges a creepy and *shudder* threesome, suddenly she no longer wants to be a mother figure to his kids, even though it's once a week, with a sporadic visit every now and then, suddenly advertising is boring, suddenly Don's life's work no longer interests her.

She begins as a woman who can "have it all" and someone that all men desire, and by the end, Mathew has made her nothing. Sorry, but to me? It just fits with the other creepy and slimy feelings I got from the show in the later seasons. I honestly do feel Mathew Weiner was playing out his own sexual peccadillos for all to see, including the child rape of Don as a boy.

He skeeves me out.

She didn't NEED that job though, if Don loved her half as much as he did for months before he dropped her, he could easily support her, and frankly, would have wanted her to live with him. If she wanted to continue to teach? Simply resign there, go to NYC and join Don, and get a different teaching job there.

No one in NYC would know or care who she was sleeping with.

I mean, I get what all of you are saying, but Don was different with Suzanne. For him to completely and inexplicable drop her at that point never made sense to me. He is lonely for months after, takes up with prostitutes after that. Meanwhile, this woman who made him feel whole, and whom he adored, and he could now have at any time without issues? He never sees her again? It was clunky. I mean take one minute of show time and give me a reason. For example, let's say when he looks at Suzanne suddenly an angry Betty morphs into her, then a flash of the box, then a crying kid "why Daddy?"

The reality was they were clearing the decks for Don to be single for real, and eventually marry wonder woman Megan, as Faye predicted, for that all to fall apart. Which is fine, but I kept thinking all along...why doesn't he just call Suzanne? Why be miserable and lonely and with hookers and drunk ALL the time? It was forced.

Oh, I agree that Betty was beautiful. She was just slightly more petite and graceful than Megan, who was also quite beautiful

I agree that if the showrunners had leaned into Megan's awkward charm rather than pretend she was this sultry graceful sexpot...it would have been more believable.

Also, you are right that Megan never looked like "the hot younger wife" compared to Betty...even when Betty got fat. They looked about the same age and when Betty was back to her old self...she actually looked younger and seemed more youthful than Megan

I remember that Mathew W said that he did not to cast an actress that looked too young because he did not want Don to look like a dirty old man in comparison. I think a lot of the Hollywood types (particularly the ones that always chase after much younger women) like to tell themselves that they "match" their young wife. It is like they believe this younger women on their arm will magically make them look twenty years younger, when often the opposite is true. I am not saying that Matt W is like this but I would not be surprised if that is a common mindset in that industry.

Umbelina · February 3, 2021

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

I remember that Mathew W said that he did not to cast an actress that looked too young because he did not want Don to look like a dirty old man in comparison. I think a lot of the Hollywood types (particularly the ones that always chase after much younger women) like to tell themselves that they "match" their young wife. It is like they believe this younger women on their arm will magically make them look twenty years younger, when often the opposite is true. I am not saying that Matt W is like this but I would not be surprised if that is a common mindset in that industry.

Well, Betty had 3 kids, one of whom was a teenager, and IRL was only 3 years older than Megan. So, technically, Megan, in those times would have been straddling the fence between being thought of as "an old maid" or a "party girl" or a "lesbian." A few years from then that wouldn't be quite as true, but she just didn't fit in that "new generation" Weiner was going for.

Now, Jane, the one Roger married, might have been a better fit for the role of Megan.

Thinking of Jessica Pare, I think she would have been a great fit in the old "screwball comedies."

Now I'm thinking of starting a list of the creepiest skeeviest and to me unjustified sexual moments on the show. 😉

1. That threesome in LA. While realistically done, and in truth I think MW meant for us to cringe and cover our eyes, and the morning after was about as real as it could be? It's up there.

2. Anything and everything to do with "scarf women." Not just icky, but also boring as hell, as well as annoying. Who hurt you Mathew?

3. Angry sex with Megan in her underwear. Ditto the angry orange sherbet crap.

4. The Thanksgiving hooker slapping Don. "Your honor, I'm going to need some foundation here."

5. Betty teasing Francis because he seemed enamored with one of Sally's friends, and she asked him if he would like her to hold the girl down so he could rape her mercilessly. WTF?

6. Don trying to make Sylvia fetch his shoes, but that entire sequence was just ghlarphh.

Other moments while cringeworthy and unpleasant, at least did work for me. I bought them, I may not have enjoyed all of them, but I did feel they showed reality for the times. I'd include nearly all of the "gay" scenes here.

Lee Garner Jr. ALL of him, from forcing Roger to be Santa, to getting Sal fired. Although credit to this story, I believed that character every step of the way. Still, for me, it was hard to watch.
Sal with the hotel guy, Sal dancing the "Bye Bye Birdie" scene in front of is wife, Sal in general was great, I was sad when he (again, realistically) was fired.
Bob Benson coming on to Pete, and actually again, all of Bob Benson's scenes really worked for me, including Pete's mother's "caregiver" which was fantastic.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Umbelina

Umbelina · February 3, 2021

Kind of a cool visual here:

sistermagpie · February 3, 2021

17 hours ago, qtpye said:

Yeah, Betty has this petite and pretty vibe to her.

Megan, while beautiful, was a little awkward in her movements. I remember when Don was watching the film of her with no sound. I thought she looked so goofy but apparently the showrunners thought Don (and the audience) would see in that scene what a natural "star" she was...not what I saw, at all.

I actually thought Megan's mother represented the amazingly sophisticated and elegant French woman much better than Megan ever did.

Yes, the scene where he's watching her on film is really a problem because it's one of those moments where you can't make somebody a movie star if they're not a movie star. Jessica Pare is a beautiful woman, but whatever MW sees in her isn't universally obvious onscreen to the point where we're going to look at her and understand we're seeing great potential. Most women on the show would have looked exactly as good in that black and white screen test.

Where as Betty often looks so pretty to me I find myself staring at her like a work of art!

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

She didn't NEED that job though, if Don loved her half as much as he did for months before he dropped her, he could easily support her, and frankly, would have wanted her to live with him. If she wanted to continue to teach? Simply resign there, go to NYC and join Don, and get a different teaching job there.

No one in NYC would know or care who she was sleeping with.

I mean, I get what all of you are saying, but Don was different with Suzanne. For him to completely and inexplicable drop her at that point never made sense to me. He is lonely for months after, takes up with prostitutes after that. Meanwhile, this woman who made him feel whole, and whom he adored, and he could now have at any time without issues? He never sees her again? It was clunky. I mean take one minute of show time and give me a reason. For example, let's say when he looks at Suzanne suddenly an angry Betty morphs into her, then a flash of the box, then a crying kid "why Daddy?"

The reality was they were clearing the decks for Don to be single for real, and eventually marry wonder woman Megan, as Faye predicted, for that all to fall apart. Which is fine, but I kept thinking all along...why doesn't he just call Suzanne? Why be miserable and lonely and with hookers and drunk ALL the time? It was forced.

I thought it was just a case of Don's life being completely blown up and it freaked out and ran. Nothing he'd been doing before looked the same, suddenly. Suzanne was a great refuge for him during that time in his life in her little cottage and seeming like this fresh, warm loving person, but when he was outed as Dick Whitman it soured everything for him and he couldn't believe in that anymore. It was tinged with shame along with everything else. He had to run. He still thought of Suzanne as a wonderful person.

5 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I did not get the impression Don looked at marrying Megan in this those terms. I thought he looked at the situation like Megan was good with the kids (as opposed to Faye who barely seemed able to interact with Sally), she didn't have a lot of baggage and he could kind of mold her into the wife he wanted. I always thought things started falling apart for them when Megan started asserting herself and moving away from the image Don had for her (i.e. the husband/wife advertising team).

I did not think Megan looked great when she was wearing one of those done up wigs and some of the uglier late 60s gowns. However, there were times when she just was wearing extensions that gave her a nice looking Ali McGraw-style look that was very flattering.

I think you're probably right about what Don was thinking, it just still stuns me that he can be that way, even though I know he is. Like of course he can't really think about it as someone he ought to have some mundane things in common with because she's more a symbol or a goddess than a person to hang out with. It was worse than Roger and Jane.

That just reminds me too of the moment when he says he'll ask Megan about music because she "knows everything" when it's really just that she's young so she actually listens to the Beatles. It's not a superpower, Don. No wonder it didn't take long for him to feel alienated.

txhorns79 · February 3, 2021

5 hours ago, qtpye said:

Also, you are right that Megan never looked like "the hot younger wife" compared to Betty...even when Betty got fat. They looked about the same age and when Betty was back to her old self...she actually looked younger and seemed more youthful than Megan

I would agree that Betty and Megan looked close in age, but I never thought Betty seemed more youthful than Megan. Betty looked elegant, but she also dressed and acted like a woman of her age and stature. You would never catch her in a mini-skirt, Zou Bissou dress or go go boots. That isn't to say that Betty wasn't also very immature and childish at times, she was.

qtpye · February 3, 2021

10 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I would agree that Betty and Megan looked close in age, but I never thought Betty seemed more youthful than Megan. Betty looked elegant, but she also dressed and acted like a woman of her age and stature. You would never catch her in a mini-skirt, Zou Bissou dress or go go boots. That isn't to say that Betty wasn't also very immature and childish at times, she was.

But I think that was part of the problem Megan was set up to be the hip young cool wife. The actress was beautiful but honestly a bit of a dork. She never had the type of persona that I would think other people (including women) would consider trendy and of the time.

Betty might have been dated in her clothing and persona but I can see people wanted to still imitate her to some degree....probably why she made such a great model.

Umbelina · February 4, 2021

46 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I would agree that Betty and Megan looked close in age, but I never thought Betty seemed more youthful than Megan. Betty looked elegant, but she also dressed and acted like a woman of her age and stature. You would never catch her in a mini-skirt, Zou Bissou dress or go go boots. That isn't to say that Betty wasn't also very immature and childish at times, she was.

Remember when Betty bought an orange bikini? Don threw a fit.

Also, she looked VERY hot in Italy, still sticking to classics, but those did flatter her well.

I agree that she knew the "Grace Kelly" look worked well for her, but I sometimes wonder what Betty would have become without two older men for husbands.

txhorns79 · February 4, 2021

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I agree that she knew the "Grace Kelly" look worked well for her, but I sometimes wonder what Betty would have become without two older men for husbands.

I mean, yeah Don was "older," but we are talking maybe six or seven years older, and he wasn't yet the success he was by the time the series had started, when they met. I do think that Henry would fit more squarely with the idea of Betty marrying an older, successful established man.

sistermagpie · February 4, 2021

12 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I mean, yeah Don was "older," but we are talking maybe six or seven years older, and he wasn't yet the success he was by the time the series had started, when they met. I do think that Henry would fit more squarely with the idea of Betty marrying an older, successful established man.

I was thinking about exactly this when thinking about Don wanting to marry Megan. I figured when they had Sally Betty would have been something like 22 and Don 28/29. Plus he'd only have been Don Draper for a few years, so he'd have been learning a lot then, still working at the furrier, not yet at SC. They would have been a young couple, neither married before, and I can easily understand how Don would imagine the marriage would work with this young, happy (he thought) woman.

But by the time he's with Megan he's been married for years, she's now 26 and he's 40. They don't even have that in common.

I know this is who Don is, but it just becomes more clear when he does it the second time. I mean, I know he saw Megan largely in terms of the jobs she'd be doing as stepmother and copywriter, but all of that was just part of her making Don feel like he was the man he should be. He wasn't hiring a nanny for his kids to get them out of his hair, he was marrying somebody he thought would make him feel like a better father.

qtpye · February 4, 2021

This article has some interesting points about Peggy

https://family-basu.medium.com/a-comparison-of-peggy-olson-from-mad-men-and-rory-gilmore-from-gilmore-girls-fe5a5d688ccf

huggybear · April 16, 2021

Doing a full season rewatch, and was struck by how much I really, really dislike Betty.

It seems that all she does with Sally and particularly Bobby in the earlier seasons, is yell at them and hit them and tell them to go watch TV. Bobby was just an afterthought and she seemed to resent both his and Sally's presence in her home and in her life.

sistermagpie · April 17, 2021

2 hours ago, huggybear said:

Doing a full season rewatch, and was struck by how much I really, really dislike Betty.

It seems that all she does with Sally and particularly Bobby in the earlier seasons, is yell at them and hit them and tell them to go watch TV. Bobby was just an afterthought and she seemed to resent both his and Sally's presence in her home and in her life.

Yeah, early on it seems like it's partly the time period where parents just said "watch TV" and drank and smoked while pregnant. But as it goes on it's really clear that this woman really does have some issues with her kids. Especially after the divorce where it seems like she really resents Sally for complex reasons.

But it also makes me remember this article that came out years ago that said studies showed that women in the 60s spent less time with their kids daily than people do now. And people automatically rejected it really angrily because we have this nostalgic things now where we're always saying that in the past mother's were there for their kids more because they didn't work as much, but mom not working didn't mean mom was playing with you a lot the way mother's are expected to do now.

qtpye · April 17, 2021

On 4/16/2021 at 9:27 PM, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, early on it seems like it's partly the time period where parents just said "watch TV" and drank and smoked while pregnant. But as it goes on it's really clear that this woman really does have some issues with her kids. Especially after the divorce where it seems like she really resents Sally for complex reasons.

But it also makes me remember this article that came out years ago that said studies showed that women in the 60s spent less time with their kids daily than people do now. And people automatically rejected it really angrily because we have this nostalgic things now where we're always saying that in the past mother's were there for their kids more because they didn't work as much, but mom not working didn't mean mom was playing with you a lot the way mother's are expected to do now.

On 4/16/2021 at 7:23 PM, huggybear said:

Doing a full season rewatch, and was struck by how much I really, really dislike Betty.

It seems that all she does with Sally and particularly Bobby in the earlier seasons, is yell at them and hit them and tell them to go watch TV. Bobby was just an afterthought and she seemed to resent both his and Sally's presence in her home and in her life.

There was no idealized 1950's housewife until television.

I know this man who would be Sally's age. In the Summer his mother would push him outside and lock the door after breakfast. She would not open it until lunch (unless he had to use the restroom). After lunch he would take a brief nap and then his mother would push him out of the house again, lock the door, and say do not come back till dinner.

She was not considered abusive and was pretty typical for how children were treated in his neighborhood. The only thing was that his mother did a lot of housework and ran errands, while Betty has hired help for a lot of these things in Carla.

No wonder the Boomers had so much time for sex and drugs during their teenage years.

Edited April 19, 2021 by qtpye

Athena · April 19, 2021

On 4/16/2021 at 9:27 PM, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, early on it seems like it's partly the time period where parents just said "watch TV" and drank and smoked while pregnant. But as it goes on it's really clear that this woman really does have some issues with her kids. Especially after the divorce where it seems like she really resents Sally for complex reasons.

But it also makes me remember this article that came out years ago that said studies showed that women in the 60s spent less time with their kids daily than people do now. And people automatically rejected it really angrily because we have this nostalgic things now where we're always saying that in the past mother's were there for their kids more because they didn't work as much, but mom not working didn't mean mom was playing with you a lot the way mother's are expected to do now.

On 4/16/2021 at 10:47 PM, qtpye said:

There was no idealized 1950's housewife until television.

I know this man who would be Sally's age. In the Summer his mother would push him outside and lock the door after breakfast. She would not open it until lunch (unless he had to use the restroom). After lunch he would take a brief nap and then his mother would push him out of the house again, lock the door, and say do not come back till dinner.

She was not considered abusive and was pretty typical for how children were treated in his neighborhood. The only thing was that his mother did a lot of housework and ran errands, while Betty has hired help for a lot of these things in Carla.

No wonder the Boomers had so much time for sex and drugs their teenage years.

Based on this topic, I asked a friend who is in his early 70s. He would be a few years older than Sally. He and his 4 siblings did not spend a lot of time with their parents in the 50s and 60s. In the summers, they went with their mother (their father had to work in the city) to their grandparents house in the country and basically spent the whole day outside. He said they would sometimes come back for lunch but they rarely saw their mother except at meal times. It wasn't a lack of love. It was just the norm back then. Betty definitely had issues but the boomers didn't really have a ton of quality time with their parents.

As a 80s/90s latchkey kid from a working class family, I understood this sort of life. I spent a lot of time playing with myself or friends in the summer. My parents were working too much for the quality time, but I know some of my friends spent more time with their parents.

qtpye · April 19, 2021

2 hours ago, Athena said:

Based on this topic, I had asked a my friend who is in his early 70s about this. He would so a few years older than Sally. He and his 4 siblings did not spend a lot of time with their parents in the 50s and 60s. In the summers, they went with their mother (their father had to work in the city) to their grandparents house in the country and basically spent the whole day outside. He said they would sometimes come back for lunch but they rarely saw their mother except at meal times. It wasn't a lack of love. It was just the norm back then. Betty definitely had issues but the boomers didn't really have a ton of quality time with their parents.

As a 80s/90s latchkey kid from a working class family, I understood this sort of life. I spent a lot of time playing with myself or friends in the summer. My parents were working too much for the quality time, but I know some of my friends spent more time with their parents.

I too was a latch key kid. My mother and father took care of me but they had lives of their own and I was not their whole world...not by a long shot.

That being said, I just think Betty is the type of woman that does not enjoy motherhood.

The funny thing is that Don has totally no idea about this because Betty is so beautiful and seems so ideal on the surface. I remember he once told her that he could of only dreamed of a mother like her growing up.

Granted, Betty was much better than Don's stepmother who always reminded him that he was a "whore child". I often wondered why she agreed to raise him instead of dropping him off at an orphanage.

Athena · April 19, 2021

14 hours ago, qtpye said:

That being said, I just think Betty is the type of woman that does not enjoy motherhood.

The funny thing is that Don has totally no idea about this because Betty is so beautiful and seems so ideal on the surface. I remember he once told her that he could of only dreamed of a mother like her growing up.

Oh, we can all agree on that as the show really depicts Betty as someone who probably should have had kids later in life or wouldn't even at all to be honest.

It makes me laugh to think about Don dreaming of a mother like Betty. His childhood was so rough that any half decent parent would be a dream. I do think that some fathers back then were very removed from the nuances of home life and parenting. There was a division in the home and childhood upbringing didn't factor in to Father's work. As long as the kids were fed, healthy, and not completely bonkers, I think Don and other fathers of that era thought they were doing a good job.

Betty knowing how Don was as an inconsistent parent and then asking her brother and sister in law to get full custody was the right call. Don could still be in their life but Don was not equipped to raise the boys even most weekends. His relationship with Sally was only developing because she was becoming old enough to understand some things.

sistermagpie · April 19, 2021

I recently re-watched Tomorrowland, the one where Don proposes to Megan. That's also the ep where Betty fires Carla and seems like she wants to get back together with Don in some way, or at least make him want her back.

What struck me was the argument she has with Henry before the scene with Don--maybe the thing that makes her think the marriage was a mistake. They argue because Henry's found out that she's fired Carla and I think is even refusing to give her a reference. And I thought wow, you can see in this scene that Henry and Betty have an actual marriage compared to Betty and Don, because when Henry is mad at her he's just actually talking about what she did and holding her to account as an adult. She's behaving childishly and he's telling her so.

There's just none of that kind of honest criticism of Betty from Don--he's either lying to her, ignoring her or hitting her through misogynist ideas that weren't accurate. Like when he accused her of throwing herself at Roger (thus it's her fault that Roger was basically sexually assaulting her) or when he hit her with his own issues about thinking she's "so good" while everyone else is "so bad." Where as Henry was really accurately just angry at her for her actual unacceptable behavior. Don very rarely seems to see Betty without filtering her through his own issues.

It's funny that this seems to make Betty feel like he's not "on her side" and reconsider how her marriage is going (it's actually going well), while Don's just entered into another marriage just like the first one that looks blissful so the surface it can't have anything underneath the surface.

Best line: "Miss Calvet and I are getting married?"

"Who?"

qtpye · April 19, 2021

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I recently re-watched Tomorrowland, the one where Don proposes to Megan. That's also the ep where Betty fires Carla and seems like she wants to get back together with Don in some way, or at least make him want her back.

What struck me was the argument she has with Henry before the scene with Don--maybe the thing that makes her think the marriage was a mistake. They argue because Henry's found out that she's fired Carla and I think is even refusing to give her a reference. And I thought wow, you can see in this scene that Henry and Betty have an actual marriage compared to Betty and Don, because when Henry is mad at her he's just actually talking about what she did and holding her to account as an adult. She's behaving childishly and he's telling her so.

There's just none of that kind of honest criticism of Betty from Don--he's either lying to her, ignoring her or hitting her through misogynist ideas that weren't accurate. Like when he accused her of throwing herself at Roger (thus it's her fault that Roger was basically sexually assaulting her) or when he hit her with his own issues about thinking she's "so good" while everyone else is "so bad." Where as Henry was really accurately just angry at her for her actual unacceptable behavior. Don very rarely seems to see Betty without filtering her through his own issues.

It's funny that this seems to make Betty feel like he's not "on her side" and reconsider how her marriage is going (it's actually going well), while Don's just entered into another marriage just like the first one that looks blissful so the surface it can't have anything underneath the surface.

Best line: "Miss Calvet and I are getting married?"

"Who?"

I remember when they announced the engagement in the office Joan and Peggy have a nice little talk. Joan tells Peggy something like Don only marries former actress and model types.

I think she partly said this because she thinks Peggy is in love with Don (Joan can't fully comprehend their relationship and it always seems like most women fall in love with Don) but also about what you said about surface love that does not go any deeper.

Don projects what he needs on to his wives (who, yes do seem to have to be physically very attractive) and then rejects when they turn out to be real people with their own wants and needs.

I remember he said he married Betty because she seemed so happy or something to that affect. Of course, the Betty we first met is both emotionally and physically abandoned in the marriage and very miserable.

That is also another thing, when Don no longer is into a wife...he is totally checked out. I remember how obsessed he was with Megan and how he seemed not to care a thing for her after she goaded him into casting her for that commercial. The attitude was similar with Betty but with the addition of kids.

I agree that Henry was the mature and emotionally stable man that Betty and the kids needed in their life.

sistermagpie · April 19, 2021

21 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I remember when they announced the engagement in the office Joan and Peggy have a nice little talk. Joan tells Peggy something like Don only marries former actress and model types.

It's a great scene! Peggy appears at the door and Joan says something like, "Well, whatever could you be here for?" LOL.

The part where Joan says Don only marries that type is later. Maybe in response to Megan leaving? I remember it--Joan's right. I think Joan says Megan's going to be a failed actress with a rich husband and Peggy says she thinks Megan's just one of those people who's good at everything.

21 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I think she partly said this because she thinks Peggy is in love with Don (Joan can't fully comprehend their relationship and it always seems like most women fall in love with Don) but also about what you said about surface love that does not go any deeper.

Don projects what he needs on to his wives (who, yes do seem to have to be physically very attractive) and then rejects when they turn out to be real people with their own wants and needs.

I remember he said he married Betty because she seemed so happy or something to that affect. Of course, the Betty we first met is both emotionally and physically abandoned in the marriage and very miserable.

That is also another thing, when Don no longer is into a wife...he is totally checked out. I remember how obsessed he was with Megan and how he seemed not to care a thing for her after she goaded him into casting her for that commercial. The attitude was similar with Betty but with the addition of kids.

I agree that Henry was the mature and emotionally stable man that Betty and the kids needed in their life.

Yeah, it's funny to think about how Joan and Peggy both in their own ways seem to have a unique understanding of Don that other people--including the other--don't really have. In some ways Peggy doesn't want to see Don as a type in the few ways he is a type. Like, if Joan isn't able to quite grasp the relationship Peggy has with Don, she does pretty much nail Don's marriages.

Megan, ironically, seems to become bitter faster than Betty, yet she also really gets far more out of the marriage. She's not tied to him by kids by the end and he gave her the money and freedom to pursue what she wanted.

qtpye · April 19, 2021

17 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It's a great scene! Peggy appears at the door and Joan says something like, "Well, whatever could you be here for?" LOL.

The part where Joan says Don only marries that type is later. Maybe in response to Megan leaving? I remember it--Joan's right. I think Joan says Megan's going to be a failed actress with a rich husband and Peggy says she thinks Megan's just one of those people who's good at everything.

Yeah, it's funny to think about how Joan and Peggy both in their own ways seem to have a unique understanding of Don that other people--including the other--don't really have. In some ways Peggy doesn't want to see Don as a type in the few ways he is a type. Like, if Joan isn't able to quite grasp the relationship Peggy has with Don, she does pretty much nail Don's marriages.

Megan, ironically, seems to become bitter faster than Betty, yet she also really gets far more out of the marriage. She's not tied to him by kids by the end and he gave her the money and freedom to pursue what she wanted.

One of my least favorite scenes is when Megan and Don meet for the divorce settlement and Don just casually writes her a check for a million dollars. For some reason that scene seems so gross.

Everything from Don to thinking money will buy his way of taking any responsibility for his actions to Megan casting her eyes down and accepting the check. In some ways, I do not blame her (most people would take that check) but it still felt weird.

caitmcg · April 19, 2021

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It's a great scene! Peggy appears at the door and Joan says something like, "Well, whatever could you be here for?" LOL.

The best part of that scene is at the end, when they’re sitting there smoking and commiserating.

Joan: Well, I learned a long time ago not to get all my satisfaction from this job.

Peggy: That’s bullshit!

And they both laugh, because they know it’s true for them both, even though Joan's been telling herself otherwise for the past decade.

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

The part where Joan says Don only marries that type is later. Maybe in response to Megan leaving? I remember it--Joan's right. I think Joan says Megan's going to be a failed actress with a rich husband and Peggy says she thinks Megan's just one of those people who's good at everything.

And Joan was right about Megan, just as Faye was right about Don when she told him he’d be married again within the year.

sistermagpie · April 20, 2021

4 hours ago, qtpye said:

One of my least favorite scenes is when Megan and Don meet for the divorce settlement and Don just casually writes her a check for a million dollars. For some reason that scene seems so gross.

It always feels to me like Don being a little boy caught doing something shameful and he just wants to throw money at the problem and hope it will go away. Which is so very much the opposite of the way he and Megan told themselves their marriage was. And of course, Megan had earlier said she didn't want his money, but then not only was she calling about him paying her rent, here she's taking the check.

It makes me think again of her dad talking about her skipping the struggle and not being an artist. She's going to take the money again. It's something central to her character--she quit acting when it was too hard, begged Don to get her the commercial when she couldn't stick it out on her own. She's not a survivor.

Not that I wouldn't have taken that check either, of course. But for Megan specifically it represents something different than, say, Joan taking a check like that.

Umbelina · April 20, 2021

I am about Sally's age.

I would have loved a mother like Betty AND having a nice nanny/housekeeper around! Honestly, she was so typical of moms I knew, raised in a conservative state (SLC Utah.) My mom worked and we had both success and horrors at babysitters.

The way Betty and her friends acted toward children was what first hooked me on the show, it was SO REAL! Smoking and drinking while pregnant, telling kids to get lost, or go play on the freeway, all of it.

A few other things:

1. We had to be home by dusk pre-junior high, other than that, we did what we pleased, built incredibly dangerous treehouses out of scraps and rusty nails we found.

2. Rode our bikes MILES and MILES away from home, organized pick up games, baseball being number 1.

3. We played in unsafe water areas with kids who could barely walk accompanied by 7 year old siblings, catching pollywogs or snakes (the boys caught the water snakes.)

4. Pretty much everyone had "whippings." The worst were from fathers with leather/steal belts (didn't have a dad, so was spared that) but I have many horrific memories of "go get me a willow switch." No one considered it child abuse, and other adults doing it to your child was not a rare thing.

5. Never had help with homework, not once. As the oldest child, I did help my siblings with homework, but parents honestly just didn't seem that involved.

6. The rich kids around got a lot of perks, lessons, better clothes, family vacations, much larger allowances, cars when they turned 16, but other than those things (and a lot more church activity, because, Mormons) they lived lives pretty much like ours, unless their parents were teachers, so they got homework help. Still, no one asked where we were going or what we did while away, as long as you were back by dusk.

Less drunk parents in Utah, but Betty's drinking was very familiar to me, the "rat pack" was still huge, and the easy going attitudes about booze that you see with Don and Betty were very familiar to me.

If anything, the only thing the show didn't get very right was only having Betty get physical once, when she slapped Sally after the haircut. Someone like Betty? Would have done that more often, IMO. Frustrated housewives with no real life outside of family seemed to act out on kids a lot.

txhorns79 · April 20, 2021

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

If anything, the only thing the show didn't get very right was only having Betty get physical once, when she slapped Sally after the haircut. Someone like Betty? Would have done that more often, IMO. Frustrated housewives with no real life outside of family seemed to act out on kids a lot.

I'm wary of making such a blanket statement. I would expect more spankings from Betty, but I thought the slap was more about Betty's general anger at Don during that season, and seeing Sally's action as an extension of Don and his lousy parenting. With Betty, I always thought her behavior with her children was more just about her being immature and unable to cope with normal kid behaviors, than being a frustrated housewife. To me it says everything that the person she confides most deeply in during the first season is Glen, and then again in Season 4, she's unofficially seeing a child psychiatrist.

4 hours ago, caitmcg said:

And Joan was right about Megan, just as Faye was right about Don when she told him he’d be married again within the year.

Faye was right about a lot. Her comment that Don only liked the beginning of things was prescient. How quickly did he start checking out of his marriage with Megan?

Umbelina · April 20, 2021

24 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I'm wary of making such a blanket statement. I would expect more spankings from Betty, but I thought the slap was more about Betty's general anger at Don during that season, and seeing Sally's action as an extension of Don and his lousy parenting. With Betty, I always thought her behavior with her children was more just about her being immature and unable to cope with normal kid behaviors, than being a frustrated housewife. To me it says everything that the person she confides most deeply in during the first season is Glen, and then again in Season 4, she's unofficially seeing a child psychiatrist.

I think most parent child violence, spankings, whippings, emotional abuse, etc. are much more about the parent's frustrations (whatever they may be) than about anything a child did or didn't do.

Agree about blanket statements though, and I certainly didn't mean to imply that all mothers spank and hit for that reason. Some are just nuts.

3outta5 · April 20, 2021

20 hours ago, qtpye said:

One of my least favorite scenes is when Megan and Don meet for the divorce settlement and Don just casually writes her a check for a million dollars. For some reason that scene seems so gross.

Especially when he walks in and offers her a cigarette and she says, "I don't want anything from you." On re-watch I found that funny.

qtpye · April 20, 2021

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I am about Sally's age.

I would have loved a mother like Betty AND having a nice nanny/housekeeper around! Honestly, she was so typical of moms I knew, raised in a conservative state (SLC Utah.) My mom worked and we had both success and horrors at babysitters.

The way Betty and her friends acted toward children was what first hooked me on the show, it was SO REAL! Smoking and drinking while pregnant, telling kids to get lost, or go play on the freeway, all of it.

A few other things:

1. We had to be home by dusk pre-junior high, other than that, we did what we pleased, built incredibly dangerous treehouses out of scraps and rusty nails we found.

2. Rode our bikes MILES and MILES away from home, organized pick up games, baseball being number 1.

3. We played in unsafe water areas with kids who could barely walk accompanied by 7 year old siblings, catching pollywogs or snakes (the boys caught the water snakes.)

4. Pretty much everyone had "whippings." The worst were from fathers with leather/steal belts (didn't have a dad, so was spared that) but I have many horrific memories of "go get me a willow switch." No one considered it child abuse, and other adults doing it to your child was not a rare thing.

5. Never had help with homework, not once. As the oldest child, I did help my siblings with homework, but parents honestly just didn't seem that involved.

6. The rich kids around got a lot of perks, lessons, better clothes, family vacations, much larger allowances, cars when they turned 16, but other than those things (and a lot more church activity, because, Mormons) they lived lives pretty much like ours, unless their parents were teachers, so they got homework help. Still, no one asked where we were going or what we did while away, as long as you were back by dusk.

Less drunk parents in Utah, but Betty's drinking was very familiar to me, the "rat pack" was still huge, and the easy going attitudes about booze that you see with Don and Betty were very familiar to me.

If anything, the only thing the show didn't get very right was only having Betty get physical once, when she slapped Sally after the haircut. Someone like Betty? Would have done that more often, IMO. Frustrated housewives with no real life outside of family seemed to act out on kids a lot.

True, I think for the longest time television went out of its way to portray moms as perfect that we don't allow mothers some very human frustrations. Of course, now moms are much more varied the media...everything from great to horrible.

On Mad Men most moms are sick of it all and certainly do not seem to get much joy from their kids. I don't think Joan got a lot joy from motherhood even if though she really wanted a baby.

I remember when I use to watch a cartoon like Arthur or shows like Sesame Street and always wondered how the how the adults were always so happy, understanding, and nurturing when the adults in my life were stressed out, on edge, and rarely seemed happy. Of course those were kids shows but as a child I did not know better.

15 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It always feels to me like Don being a little boy caught doing something shameful and he just wants to throw money at the problem and hope it will go away. Which is so very much the opposite of the way he and Megan told themselves their marriage was. And of course, Megan had earlier said she didn't want his money, but then not only was she calling about him paying her rent, here she's taking the check.

It makes me think again of her dad talking about her skipping the struggle and not being an artist. She's going to take the money again. It's something central to her character--she quit acting when it was too hard, begged Don to get her the commercial when she couldn't stick it out on her own. She's not a survivor.

Not that I wouldn't have taken that check either, of course. But for Megan specifically it represents something different than, say, Joan taking a check like that.

I think Megan was one of those people who liked the idea of the artist's struggle but always figured that life would work out for her because of her natural charisma and looks. I think at the beginning she though she loved Don and was wowed by the mystery/ magic of Don Draper as everyone tends to be.

Later, when Don emotionally abandons her in the marriage (he did the same to Betty) when she fails to live up to his ideals, she no longer liked Don but enjoyed the perks of being married to a rich successful man. She loved being the center of attentions at Don's birthday party and she was living a dilettante's life in LA.

When Don meets with her after the divorce she is at her lowest. She has failed as an actress, her marriage is in ruins, she no longer has an "in" in advertising and she has already said she dislikes it.

She could go back to being a secretary but the average salary back then was a little under $6,000 a year and I would imagine an entry level secretary makes less. It would be hard to go back to that life after being used to money and privilege.

And yes, it was easier for Don to pay her off than take responsibility for his part in the marriage's demise.

I understood why Megan took the money but she did look very pathetic in the scene and it felt very weird, particularly since the actress was a favorite with the showrunner.

sistermagpie · April 20, 2021

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think most parent child violence, spankings, whippings, emotional abuse, etc. are much more about the parent's frustrations (whatever they may be) than about anything a child did or didn't do.

Agree about blanket statements though, and I certainly didn't mean to imply that all mothers spank and hit for that reason. Some are just nuts.

There's also that scene at the birthday party when a random dad slaps somebody else's kid for running in the house and the father tells the kid to apologize to him. LOL.

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

I think Megan was one of those people who liked the idea of the artist's struggle but always figured that life would work out for her because of her natural charisma and looks. I think at the beginning she though she loved Don and was wowed by the mystery/ magic of Don Draper as everyone tends to be.

Later, when Don emotionally abandons her in the marriage (he did the same to Betty) when she fails to live up to his ideals, she no longer liked Don but enjoyed the perks of being married to a rich successful man. She loved being the center of attentions at Don's birthday party and she was living a dilettante's life in LA.

When Don meets with her after the divorce she is at her lowest. She has failed as an actress, her marriage is in ruins, she no longer has an "in" in advertising and she has already said she dislikes it.

She could go back to being a secretary but the average salary back then was a little under $6,000 a year and I would imagine an entry level secretary makes less. It would be hard to go back to that life after being used to money and privilege.

And yes, it was easier for Don to pay her off than take responsibility for his part in the marriage's demise.

I understood why Megan took the money but she did look very pathetic in the scene and it felt very weird, particularly since the actress was a favorite with the showrunner.

Yes, I think she meets with him shortly after her disastrous meeting with Harry that makes her feel gross. And she's wearing that baby blue dress that made her look so cool when she picked up Don in California but now looks kind of wrinkled. Plus, frankly, when she started wearing that more done-up look with the hair falls and lots of make-up she looked older and more tired.

It makes sense to me, even, that Megan winds up looking more worse for wear than Betty, even though Betty, of course, goes through a phase of gaining weight and smokes a lot (and eventually literally wastes away and dies). Because where Betty has her own problems, she's not a chameleon like Megan who seems so much more likely to start reflecting the people around her. Betty changed her style when she married Henry, but it seems like that was more a decision she made based on a good idea of her new role as the wife of an older politician. She seemed to have more of a sense of who she was as a person--even if that person was often angry and miserable--than Megan did. Which is why Megan always seemed to take it much harder when things didn't work out easily for her the way they usually did.

qtpye · April 20, 2021

32 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

There's also that scene at the birthday party when a random dad slaps somebody else's kid for running in the house and the father tells the kid to apologize to him. LOL.

Yes, I think she meets with him shortly after her disastrous meeting with Harry that makes her feel gross. And she's wearing that baby blue dress that made her look so cool when she picked up Don in California but now looks kind of wrinkled. Plus, frankly, when she started wearing that more done-up look with the hair falls and lots of make-up she looked older and more tired.

It makes sense to me, even, that Megan winds up looking more worse for wear than Betty, even though Betty, of course, goes through a phase of gaining weight and smokes a lot (and eventually literally wastes away and dies). Because where Betty has her own problems, she's not a chameleon like Megan who seems so much more likely to start reflecting the people around her. Betty changed her style when she married Henry, but it seems like that was more a decision she made based on a good idea of her new role as the wife of an older politician. She seemed to have more of a sense of who she was as a person--even if that person was often angry and miserable--than Megan did. Which is why Megan always seemed to take it much harder when things didn't work out easily for her the way they usually did.

Yes, being a politician's wife was a role that Betty was born to play as a well educated blue blood and she did it well.

I would not be surprised if Don never sees Megan again in his life. When he wrote that check, I felt that it was as much to be through with her and apology for his issues.

Of course, Betty and Don will always be connected by the kids.

The last scene of Betty on the show is her bravely going to her new class, despite a diagnosis of terminal cancer.

It was a very dignified good bye for her while Megan's good bye on the show was about as desperate as you could get.

txhorns79 · April 20, 2021

6 hours ago, qtpye said:

I don't think Joan got a lot joy from motherhood even if though she really wanted a baby.

That's interesting. I don't think being a parent would ever have been enough for Joan, but I do think she cared deeply about her son and got joy from him. I think we just happened to catch her at times when she was deeply stressed over other things. To me, I think they kind of tried to show how important he was to her when the two things she walked out of McCann with were her Rolodex and her picture of Kevin.

Quote

The last scene of Betty on the show is her bravely going to her new class, despite a diagnosis of terminal cancer.

The last scene of Betty on the show is her sitting at the table in her kitchen smoking and reading the newspaper, while having some difficulty breathing. You may be thinking of the scene in the prior episode where Sally reads Betty's note and we see her ascending the stairs at college.

sistermagpie · April 20, 2021

4 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

That's interesting. I don't think being a parent would ever have been enough for Joan, but I do think she cared deeply about her son and got joy from him. I think we just happened to catch her at times when she was deeply stressed over other things. To me, I think they kind of tried to show how important he was to her when the two things she walked out of McCann with were her Rolodex and her picture of Kevin.

I feel like one of the key things about prestige TV shows in general is pushing back at the idea that having a child is supposed to fulfill you completely. So you have people who are parents and love their kids but still sometimes have not even just problems but deep dissatisfaction in their lives

Lonesome Rhodes · April 22, 2021

Don's relationships were very much in tune with marketing. The idea of X is always better than the actual X. The image of Don was waaaay better than the actual Don.

I know the intent of TPTB was not to make Betty a "bad person." Yet, that's what they created. She was insanely self-centered and she was not particularly intelligent, imo. Gorgeous, she was.

The character I always had the most trouble figuring out was Henry. His pursuit of Betty made perfect horndog sense. But, that he became a rock and a foundational icon for his stepchildren, despite being in perhaps the only profession more phony than marketing (politics), was weird to me. Why was he such a tremendously supporting husband and father? I get that he could have been blinded by Betty's beauty. But, the man quickly saw how ugly she really was. Why was he soooo invested in rescuing her and those kids?

Ohiopirate02 · April 22, 2021

13 minutes ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Don's relationships were very much in tune with marketing. The idea of X is always better than the actual X. The image of Don was waaaay better than the actual Don.

I know the intent of TPTB was not to make Betty a "bad person." Yet, that's what they created. She was insanely self-centered and she was not particularly intelligent, imo. Gorgeous, she was.

The character I always had the most trouble figuring out was Henry. His pursuit of Betty made perfect horndog sense. But, that he became a rock and a foundational icon for his stepchildren, despite being in perhaps the only profession more phony than marketing (politics), was weird to me. Why was he such a tremendously supporting husband and father? I get that he could have been blinded by Betty's beauty. But, the man quickly saw how ugly she really was. Why was he soooo invested in rescuing her and those kids?

Betty was intelligent, just not an intellectual. She's smart. She speaks Italian. Betty is the perfect WASP wife who was raised to be both an ornament on her husband's arm and a housekeeper. She went to college to get her Mrs. Degree and ended up with a bachelor's in anthropology instead. She did work as a model after graduation, but that was also a way for her to pass her time and meet suitable men.

sistermagpie · April 22, 2021

1 hour ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

The character I always had the most trouble figuring out was Henry. His pursuit of Betty made perfect horndog sense. But, that he became a rock and a foundational icon for his stepchildren, despite being in perhaps the only profession more phony than marketing (politics), was weird to me. Why was he such a tremendously supporting husband and father? I get that he could have been blinded by Betty's beauty. But, the man quickly saw how ugly she really was. Why was he soooo invested in rescuing her and those kids?

I often find myself wondering how Henry wound up divorced since he seems so ready to make a marriage work! He's so all-around responsible, but at the same time he doesn't come across as particularly boring either. Like, who was the first wife and what's her deal?!

qtpye · April 22, 2021

I think my weirdest Betty moment was when Henry was complimenting one of Sally’s friends and Betty asks if Henry would like for her to hold the friend down so Henry can rape her. WTF?

Ohiopirate02 · April 22, 2021

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I often find myself wondering how Henry wound up divorced since he seems so ready to make a marriage work! He's so all-around responsible, but at the same time he doesn't come across as particularly boring either. Like, who was the first wife and what's her deal?!

It could be one or two things that caused Henry's first marriage to fail. One, younger Henry was a workaholic who was absent most of the time. He's a politician and that is very plausible. Older Henry has learned the error of his ways and is now a more attentive partner to Betty. He has also risen to the highest point of his career and is now looking at the descent. He wants to have a wife and family to come home to now. Betty and her kids give him that.

Two, Henry's first wife was also a stifled housewife like Betty and chose divorce to break out. Years of being the perfect political housewife while raising kids became too much for her. We saw Henry get mad a Betty for expressing an opinion at a political event that did not square with the Republican talking points. Having to constantly be on the same page as your husband and his political party must wear on a person.

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